harrah's AC lawsuit
I was under the impression you said you spend most of your free time in casinos? Apparently not in any casino not near Great falls or where ever Varmenti and Company is from.Quote: Gandler
And what does this do with checking your ID? I was under the impression everybody gets their ID checked
AP's don't want to show ID when approached by security, usually they just want to leave when approached by security. Security guards don't like being told "no Ill just leave." They will often times want to make you show ID before you leave or even take you into a special room away from the other patrons and to make sure they get a nice picture, or question you, or scare you into giving up the ID.
Seriously you just have a talent for getting under my skin saying things like it's ok to shoot someone on private property, or if they verbally state some threat. People would shoot people all the time legally if this were true and could lie about said statements to get away with it. No, no, no.Quote: GandlerIn that scenario that may be good advice, but getting jumped in an alley by unarmed street thugs is a totally different scenario. But if you are confronted by 10 security guard, 2-3 likely have firearms and they all likely have batons and pepper spray. Trying to take out their knees or be a hero would not be good advice, it would make them more angry and you would very likely end up with more injuries.
I am not trying to reinvent anything; I am saying what I would do. I know I don't want batons pulled on me when I can just submit to a take down.
And what does this do with checking your ID? I was under the impression everybody gets their ID checked (after all it is an age limited establishment), so if you refuse to give your ID they are well within their rights to ban you because they probably think that you are underage or already banned. I get my ID taken usually by the first guard that sees me enter the gaming area (before I even start playing), its just standard practice to check everyone's ID to make sure they are legally eligible to be there. They don't need to lie or cheat or anything to get it, they are well within their rights to check everybody's ID even if you look 90.
I don't do anything to get kicked out of a casino, but if I did, I would know I want to escape giving them zero information. They could ask, but I would say no. They could try to fool me to think, I have to stay there, but I would know they couldn't and can't. Things like banning photography are requests which can be ignored. They can ask you to leave but since it's not crime, you can just leave. You don't have to make it easy for them and cannot be required. This has been talked about over and over. Agreed case closed.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'm well over 21 and don't look anywhere near it. The casino has no reason to see my ID except to pay a jackpot or cash out a large amount. Stores don't ask for my ID for any reason, why should a casino?
To make sure that you are not banned? Or just to know who you are? Or they are supposed to check whenever your player card (at least most AC casinos have that policy)?
There are usually signs that say "we reserve the right to request ID verification from anybody at anytime" or something similar. If you have a player card, they already know who you are anyway and even your home address, email, etc... so if you have a card there I don't know why you would care, you already lost the anonymity factor, I'm sure they know who you are the second you walk in if you are a frequent customer, but the random guard on the floor may not.
Quote: GandlerYes I did post that in another thread, not sure how it relates to the issue of property rights in this thread?
Property rights? Again, you seem to be saying that these people can make up there own laws? The law is very clear on this matter. Casino personel have the right to detain you and call the people IF you committed a crime and are being charged with a crime. Otherwise they can not just detain, nor beat you up.
The case of the Binn's which BTW occurred two years ago, in August 2012, it does not appear anyone in the Binn Family was charged with anything. They were just beaten up and illegally detained. In the case Mr Coney, who was beaten many times with a nite stick while two other security guards held his arms, so the beater had free access to club him in the face, Mr Coney, was charged with resisting arrest, but all charges were dropped. So, it turns out that no crimes have been committed by the victims, yet they are illegally assaulted and detained. And yet you defend these actions, saying the casino has the right to do what they like, because it is private property. You seem confused as to how the law works.
Quote: onenickelmiracleSeriously you just have a talent for getting under my skin saying things like it's ok to shoot someone on private property, or if they verbally state some threat. People would shoot people all the time legally if this were true and could lie about said statements to get away with it. No, no, no.
I don't do anything to get kicked out of a casino, but if I did, I would know I want to escape giving them zero information. They could ask, but I would say no. They could try to fool me to think, I have to stay there, but I would know they couldn't and can't. Things like banning photography are requests which can be ignored. They can ask you to leave but since it's not crime, you can just leave. You don't have to make it easy for them and cannot be required. This has been talked about over and over. Agreed case closed.
People do legally shoot people everyday. Many states have Castle law or a similar sounding name that authorizes deadly force for trespassers. I'm sure on any given day you can find multiple examples of this happening.
But that is the point. If they know who you are before you have a chance to break the rules, they won't have to worry about chasing you later. And that is what I have been saying all along, any policy they have they can enforce only by kicking you out, but if you refuse to leave, you can be charged with trespassing.
Quote: kewljProperty rights? Again, you seem to be saying that these people can make up there own laws? The law is very clear on this matter. Casino personel have the right to detain you and call the people IF you committed a crime and are being charged with a crime. Otherwise they can not just detain, nor beat you up.
The case of the Binn's which BTW occurred two years ago, in August 2012, it does not appear anyone in the Binn Family was charged with anything. They were just beaten up and illegally detained. In the case Mr Coney, who was beaten many times with a nite stick while two other security guards held his arms, so the beater had free access to club him in the face, Mr Coney, was charged with resisting arrest, but all charges were dropped. So, it turns out that no crimes have been committed by the victims, yet they are illegally assaulted and detained. And yet you defend these actions, saying the casino has the right to do what they like, because it is private property. You seem confused as to how the law works.
I defended the Casino once in one specific scenario and still hold the view for that scenario. My comments were very specific and clearly referred to the case of Binns (which was the original topic of this thread). I even specifically said I am not defending them in the other scenarios, of which I have not looked into enough to have an opinion.
Quote: kewljProperty rights? Again, you seem to be saying that these people can make up there own laws? The law is very clear on this matter. Casino personel have the right to detain you and call the people IF you committed a crime and are being charged with a crime. Otherwise they can not just detain, nor beat you up.
The case of the Binn's which BTW occurred two years ago, in August 2012, it does not appear anyone in the Binn Family was charged with anything. They were just beaten up and illegally detained. In the case Mr Coney, who was beaten many times with a nite stick while two other security guards held his arms, so the beater had free access to club him in the face, Mr Coney, was charged with resisting arrest, but all charges were dropped. So, it turns out that no crimes have been committed by the victims, yet they are illegally assaulted and detained. And yet you defend these actions, saying the casino has the right to do what they like, because it is private property. You seem confused as to how the law works.
Quote: Gandler
Yes I did post that in another thread, not sure how it relates to the issue of property rights in this thread?
I like to say again. I love democracy. We all speak our mind
Quote: AxelWolfI was under the impression you said you spend most of your free time in casinos? Apparently not in any casino not near Great falls or where ever Varmenti and Company is from.
AP's don't want to show ID when approached by security, usually they just want to leave when approached by security. Security guards don't like being told "no Ill just leave." They will often times want to make you show ID before you leave or even take you into a special room away from the other patrons and to make sure they get a nice picture, or question you, or scare you into giving up the ID.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I never gamble outside AC. With the exception of one random Native American casino that I once briefly stopped that happened to be somewhere near a military base (I think somewhere in New Mexico) I was once at.
And I have once never claimed to be a professional AP. I can count (which casinos have to allow in AC), but I still lose a lot at other games, I go more for fun than to make money. But if you count enough and in combination with your card (especially in the winter in AC when comps can be generous) you can break even, perhaps make a bit and have a great time. In fact from my posts it should be obvious that I am anything but an AP player.
You describe illegal shootings claiming they're legal. we're talking about being denied exit, not refusing to exit are we not.Quote: GandlerPeople do legally shoot people everyday. Many states have Castle law or a similar sounding name that authorizes deadly force for trespassers. I'm sure on any given day you can find multiple examples of this happening.
But that is the point. If they know who you are before you have a chance to break the rules, they won't have to worry about chasing you later. And that is what I have been saying all along, any policy they have they can enforce only by kicking you out, but if you refuse to leave, you can be charged with trespassing.
Quote: GandlerI defended the Casino once in one specific scenario and still hold the view for that scenario. My comments were very specific and clearly referred to the case of Binns (which was the original topic of this thread). I even specifically said I am not defending them in the other scenarios, of which I have not looked into enough to have an opinion.
Ok, then please explain your specific defense of security personnel in the Binn case. Mrs. Binn and her daughter, a 17 year old minor were not involved in anything and were walking away as they have every right to do. They were pursued by casino personnel, including the director of security, who assaulted them, knocking them both to the ground breaking the young girls nose and dragging the mother across the floor. They then were illegally detained, no charges filed. So please, elaborate on your specific defense of these actions.
Quote: onenickelmiracleYou describe illegal shootings claiming they're legal. we're talking about being denied exit, not refusing to exit are we not.
I have never claimed that an illegal shooting was legal? I was commenting on a reply that somebody made saying that property owners can never shoot trespassers.
But yes we are (or were at any rate), and since shooting was not involved in the Binns case I agree that it is not relevant anyway.
Quote: kewljOk, then please explain your specific defense of security personnel in the Binn case. Mrs. Binn and her daughter, a 17 year old minor were not involved in anything and were walking away as they have every right to do. They were pursued by casino personnel, including the director of security, who assaulted them, knocking them both to the ground breaking the young girls nose and dragging the mother across the floor. They then were illegally detained, no charges filed. So please, elaborate on your specific defense of these actions.
I already have in many posts earlier in the thread.
I will add that everyone here (including me) is formulating their opinion based on one side. We still have not heard the casinos official statement yet. I know they are refusing to comment for now, but when the trial actually starts, we will be able to get a more unbiased feed of information, since it is very obvious all media stations are clearly skewed on the side of Binns. Perhaps rightfully so, we will see how the trial pans out.
Quote: GandlerI have no idea what you are talking about.
I never gamble outside AC. With the exception of one random Native American casino that I once briefly stopped that happened to be somewhere near a military base (I think somewhere in New Mexico) I was once at.
And I have once never claimed to be a professional AP. I can count (which casinos have to allow in AC), but I still lose a lot at other games, I go more for fun than to make money. But if you count enough and in combination with your card (especially in the winter in AC when comps can be generous) you can break even, perhaps make a bit and have a great time. In fact from my posts it should be obvious that I am anything but an AP player.
Quote: Gandlerwas under the impression everybody gets their ID checked
If one spend any amount of time in a casino they would know this was not true. Unless they looked under 21. Its rare to have someone ID you at the casino unless your are doing something where ID is required.
Quote: AxelWolfIf one spend any amount of time in a casino they would know this was not true. Unless they looked under 21. Its rare to have someone ID you at the casino unless your are doing something where ID is required.
I don't observe others much, so I don't watch every single individual to see if they get their ID checked. But I have seen people way older than me who looked eligible for SS, that get checked on entry.
But I know this, when I am playing without a card and not staying in a hotel I will more likely than not get checked, especially if it is slow and there is a bunch of guards with nothing to do. But if I am staying at the respective hotel, and/or using a player card, I never get checked. I think they mostly like to know who they have there. Which I have no problem with, it probably ensures the player saftey as well.
Hold on. You are telling me you see people get their ID checked on entry in AC?Quote: GandlerI don't observe others much, so I don't watch every single individual to see if they get their ID checked. But I have seen people way older than me who looked eligible for SS, that get checked on entry.
I have to doubt you spend any time in AC.
Quote: AxelWolfHold on. You are telling me you see people get their ID checked on entry in AC?
I have to doubt you spend any time in AC.
I'm talking about entry onto the casino floor....
YEA AND?Quote: GandlerI'm talking about entry onto the casino floor....
Quote: AxelWolfYEA AND?
Now you are further confusing me?
The big-times supermarket chain Wegman's sure does just that in its liquor stores. But as far as guards' checking ID's at casino entrances, that is never done unless a person appears to be under age or abnormal in some respect.Quote: IbeatyouracesI'm well over 21 and don't look anywhere near it. The casino has no reason to see my ID except to pay a jackpot or cash out a large amount. Stores don't ask for my ID for any reason, why should a casino?
Since AC opened, I have never seen one of those "usual signs" about requesting ID. Just where are they supposed to be posted?Quote: GandlerThere are usually signs that say "we reserve the right to request ID verification from anybody at anytime" or something similar. If you have a player card, they already know who you are anyway and even your home address, email, etc... so if you have a card there I don't know why you would care, you already lost the anonymity factor, I'm sure they know who you are the second you walk in if you are a frequent customer, but the random guard on the floor may not.
Who is doing the charging?Quote: GandlerAny policy they have they can enforce only by kicking you out, but if you refuse to leave, you can be charged with trespassing.
I'm saying I doubt you go to AC much. They do not randomly check peoples ID unless they look under 21 or are doing a ID required transaction, IE. cashing in large amounts, using players card to get something, Jackpots, or they are suspected of doing something nefarious. They don't even check your ID when you present a players card at the tables unless they have a reason to believe it may not be you. If you are buying in for a lot they might ask for ID.Quote: GandlerNow you are further confusing me?
Just walking on the casino floor, NO NO NO.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm saying I doubt you go to AC much. They do not randomly check peoples ID unless they look under 21 or are doing a ID required transaction, IE. cashing in large amounts, using players card to get something, Jackpots, or they are suspected of doing something nefarious. They don't even check your ID when you present a players card at the tables unless they have a reason to believe it may not be you. If you are buying in for a lot they might ask for ID.
Just walking on the casino floor, NO NO NO.
I have been to AC over 2 dozen of time over a period of say 20 years. I have never been asked to show ID entering the casino floor. Only buying in or cashing out large sum.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm saying I doubt you go to AC much. They do not randomly check peoples ID unless they look under 21 or are doing a ID required transaction, IE. cashing in large amounts, using players card to get something, Jackpots, or they are suspected of doing something nefarious. They don't even check your ID when you present a players card at the tables unless they have a reason to believe it may not be you. If you are buying in for a lot they might ask for ID.
Just walking on the casino floor, NO NO NO.
Yes. Yes yes . I frequently get my ID checked by the first guard who sees me walk on the floor if it is somewhere I don't frequently go. And if you are presenting a player card there is no reason to check ID since they can look you right up.
But I am away right now and will be for the rest of the year so I have not been there in the last couple months.
Say, a five-figure buy-in. Or maybe with a four-figure buy-in if something askew appears to be involved.Quote: AxelWolfThey don't even check your ID when you present a players card at the tables unless they have a reason to believe it may not be you. If you are buying in for a lot they might ask for ID.
Exactly. It would be physically impossible to control all the entrances and then to card the hundreds of people flowing through each one.Quote: AxelWolfJust walking on the casino floor, NO NO NO.
Quote: GandlerYes. Yes yes . I frequently get my ID checked by the first guard who sees me walk on the floor if it is somewhere I don't frequently go.
Then you may look very young or very unusual. Perhaps you look like a homeless person or a common criminal. They often ID guys like this in hopes they don't have ID and can ask them to leave. You may even look like someone who is wanted, if this is really happening ( I highly doubt it) I have to think this is the reason.
I would be willing to bet you, I can take a person who has never been to AC to each major casino and have them play something and they would never get carded once .
At this point I have a feeling you are just Lemieux66'ing us.
Quote: AxelWolfThen you may look very young or very unusual. Perhaps you look like a homeless person or a common criminal. They often ID guys like this in hopes they don't have ID and can ask them to leave. You may even look like someone who is wanted, if this is really happening ( I highly doubt it) I have to think this is the reason.
I would be willing to bet you, I can take a person who has never been to AC to each major casino and have them play something and they would never get carded once .
At this point I have a feeling you are just Lemieux66'ing us.
I'm not sure why I would lie about getting ID'd at Casinos. But I am 23 and do look young. I certainly don't look homeless, I usually go in dress clothes or a suit.
-Also, like I said earlier this usually happens at Casinos I don't frequent.
Quote: GandlerTo make sure that you are not banned? Or just to know who you are? Or they are supposed to check whenever your player card (at least most AC casinos have that policy)?
There are usually signs that say "we reserve the right to request ID verification from anybody at anytime" or something similar. If you have a player card, they already know who you are anyway and even your home address, email, etc... so if you have a card there I don't know why you would care, you already lost the anonymity factor, I'm sure they know who you are the second you walk in if you are a frequent customer, but the random guard on the floor may not.
Of course they can request it, and you can refuse. All that they can do is ask you to leave if you don't comply. There is no law that says that you have to follow their rules if you are on their property, only that they can ask you to leave if you don't do what they want, and, if you refuse to leave, they can have you charged with trespassing.
You seem to think that they are in some sort of position of authority, but they are not. They can make whatever rules they want, just like I can make whatever rules I want in my own house. But if I invite someone to my house and they do not follow my rules, I do not have the right to assault them -- all I can do is ask them to leave.
FFS... You could have lead with that pertinent bit of info.. Well no S**T you get carded.Quote: GandlerI'm not sure why I would lie about getting ID'd at Casinos. But I am 23 and do look young. I certainly don't look homeless, I usually go in dress clothes or a suit.
-Also, like I said earlier this usually happens at Casinos I don't frequent.
Your age also reflects heavily on your views and experiences. 23- 33 were some of the best times of my life. Being young is a good thing so Please, please do yourself (and us)a favor. PUT DOWN THE COMPUTER and walk away from the forum. Or you will end up like Bob.
Quote: GandlerPeople do legally shoot people everyday. Many states have Castle law or a similar sounding name that authorizes deadly force for trespassers. I'm sure on any given day you can find multiple examples of this happening.
You appear to be extremely confused.
Castle doctrine only applies to people who enter your home (not just your property) illegally. It does not apply to someone who entered legally, as was the case here. It also generally does not apply unless the resident of the home reasonably believes that the intruder is there to commit a crime (usually a violent crime against the resident, although some states allow it for lesser crimes).
It does NOT allow for deadly force against trespassers. There is a big difference between trespassing and breaking into someone's home with the intent to kill them.
What if I steal your drugs and kiddy porn?Quote: AxiomOfChoiceBut if I invite someone to my house and they do not follow my rules, I do not have the right to assault them -- all I can do is ask them to leave.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYou appear to be extremely confused.
Castle doctrine only applies to people who enter your home (not just your property) illegally. It does not apply to someone who entered legally, as was the case here. It also generally does not apply unless the resident of the home reasonably believes that the intruder is there to commit a crime (usually a violent crime against the resident, although some states allow it for lesser crimes).
It does NOT allow for deadly force against trespassers. There is a big difference between trespassing and breaking into someone's home with the intent to kill them.
I'm aware of that. but read the post that was in reply to... I was not posting that in reference to the Binns scenerio.
Wait a minute, that might explain it. HMMMMMM
+1000Quote: AxelWolf
At this point I have a feeling you are just Lemieux66'ing us.
Quote: SanchoPanzaThe big-times supermarket chain Wegman's sure does just that in its liquor stores. But as far as guards' checking ID's at casino entrances, that is never done unless a person appears to be under age or abnormal in some respect.
You're right and they always seemed a little lax even for young looking people. The kids were given wristbands on occasion, the last time being at Showboat, but it wasn't the norm. That may be because they were accompanied by adults.
Quote: kewljfor anyone interested ABC's 20/20 is doing a story on the recent Binn family incident at Harrah's AC, where security used excessive violence. In addition to the Binn family there are 3 other very similar stories all involving harrah's AC security using excessive force. Here is a link to The Binn's family incident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6c1NSbl32g
I think the Binn's family has a hefty payday coming via the evil empire. :)
I watched the video several times. Mr. Binn's body language is surly. He is waiving his hands. He's agitated. By the look of his behavior I wouldn't 't be surprised if he was insulting and using foul language towards security personal. And he might have made physical contact with security while pointing at them. There's no way to be certain by the angle of this video. But what we do know is that he lost his cool and his behavior appears aggressive. I am not sympathetic to him. His resisting being detained for his behavior is what led to the scuffle.
Quote: GreasyjohnI watched the video several times. Mr. Binn's body language is surly. He is waiving his hands. He's agitated. By the look of his behavior I wouldn't 't be surprised if he was insulting and using foul language towards security personal. And he might have made physical contact with security while pointing at them. There's no way to be certain by the angle of this video. But what we do know is that he lost his cool and his behavior appears aggressive. I am not sympathetic to him. His resisting being detained for his behavior is what led to the scuffle.
Did you watch the video of the wife and daughter several times also? No aggression at all. They were simply walking away. They slammed the daughters face to the floor. Broke her nose.
How about an honest assessment of what happened to the daughter, that's also part of the video tape.
Why not review the WHOLE video tape regarding the WHOLE family?
Quote: terapinedDid you watch the video of the wife and daughter several times also? No aggression at all. They were simply walking away. They slammed the daughters face to the floor. Broke her nose.
How about an honest assessment of what happened to the daughter, that's also part of the video tape.
Why not review the WHOLE video tape regarding the WHOLE family?
Because he was probably focusing on Binns who was the primary issue.
But I have never stayed at Harrah's so I am not familiar with the geography there, but the wife and daughter were heading towards the elevator (presumably to the room). Securite most likely told them to leave out the exit (I am assuming since they tried to kick Binns out) and told him to leave and they needed to stop them before they reached the elevator and had a chance to enter the hotel area.
Quote: GandlerBecause he was probably focusing on Binns who was the primary issue.
But I have never stayed at Harrah's so I am not familiar with the geography there, but the wife and daughter were heading towards the elevator (presumably to the room). Securite most likely told them to leave out the exit (I am assuming since they tried to kick Binns out) and told him to leave and they needed to stop them before they reached the elevator and had a chance to enter the hotel area.
Then stop the family by simply blocking their way, no reason to act like thugs and slam the daughters face to the floor.
Security in a gazillion incidents around the world block access without acting like thugs.
The name of the thread is "harrahs AC lawsuit"
Mr binn did not file a lawsuit.
The daughter did file a lawsuit, her situation is the primary issue.
Quote: terapinedThen stop the family by simply blocking their way, no reason to act like thugs and slam the daughters face to the floor.
Security in a gazillion incidents around the world block access without acting like thugs.
The name of the thread is "harrahs AC lawsuit"
Mr binn did not file a lawsuit.
The daughter did file a lawsuit, her situation is the primary issue.
I just watched the daughters section again. And she reacted worse than her father. They were clearly telling her to stop and she kept walking and waved them off. And they had to stop her, what else were they going to do.
Binns and his daughter are in my opinion very cut and dry in that secuirty did nothing wrong, they were both blatantly ignoring requests to stop and leave. And though you can't hear sound it is obvious by their faces and hand motions, they were both being very rude and disrespectful, and in Binns case possibly threatening.
Even if you are going to focus on his daughter I can't see any moral issue for the casino, in my opinion even less so, because not only blatantly told the secuirty to "screw off" she walked right where she was supposed to not go and ignored tons of employees telling her to not go back in...
Why did the guards "have to stop her"? She and her mother were walking away.Quote: GandlerI just watched the daughters section again. And she reacted worse than her father. They were clearly telling her to stop and she kept walking and waved them off. And they had to stop her, what else were they going to do.
The proper procedure is to escort the wife and daughter to their room to gather their belongings.
Not act like thugs.
Quote: GandlerI just watched the daughters section again. And she reacted worse than her father. They were clearly telling her to stop and she kept walking and waved them off. And they had to stop her, what else were they going to do.
Binns and his daughter are in my opinion very cut and dry in that secuirty did nothing wrong, they were both blatantly ignoring requests to stop and leave. And though you can't hear sound it is obvious by their faces and hand motions, they were both being very rude and disrespectful, and in Binns case possibly threatening.
Even if you are going to focus on his daughter I can't see any moral issue for the casino, in my opinion even less so, because not only blatantly told the secuirty to "screw off" she walked right where she was supposed to not go and ignored tons of employees telling her to not go back in...
None of this gives them the right to react violently.
