harrah's AC lawsuit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6c1NSbl32g
I think the Binn's family has a hefty payday coming via the evil empire. :)
Quote: kewljfor anyone interested ABC's 20/20 is doing a story on the recent Binn family incident at Harrah's AC, where security used excessive violence. In addition to the Binn family there are 3 other very similar stories all involving harrah's AC security using excessive force. Here is a link to The Binn's family incident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6c1NSbl32g
I think the Binn's family has a hefty payday coming via the evil empire. :)
WOW!!! Inexcusable
It looks like they took ahold of his arms
to escort him out and he immediately
started fighting them. The same with
the girl, she erupted and they pounced
on her. I don't see where they'll get much
money out of this.
Quote: EvenBobI always get a kick out of this video.
It looks like they took ahold of his arms
to escort him out and he immediately
started fighting them. The same with
the girl, she erupted and they pounced
on her. I don't see where they'll get much
money out of this.
Bob, I don't know what you are watching. Sometimes, make that often, I think you just like to take the other view for sake of being disagreeable. Lol. Harrah's security was the aggressors and unnecessarily took down all three of these family members. You are aware that nobody in this family had done anything wrong nor was being arrested. It was a dispute over a room key. They weren't being detained, nor arrested prior to the takedowns.
If this goes to trial I would be interested in some friendly wagers on the outcome, both guilt/innocence and total damages.
You can't just grab people from behind and drag them out Bob. If Harrah's wants to save face not waiting for the police or not wanting crime to be official, they can write the checks until they bounce.Quote: EvenBobI always get a kick out of this video.
It looks like they took ahold of his arms
to escort him out and he immediately
started fighting them. The same with
the girl, she erupted and they pounced
on her. I don't see where they'll get much
money out of this.
There is footage of two other similar incidents. In the case of the Penn grad student, security asked to see his ID. When he showed it, they bent it in half. At that point he tried to take back his ID and they tackled him.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/holiday-hell-atlantic-city-vacationers-describe-roughed-harrahs/story?id=24796522
When one guy in Vegas disputed a slot machine and got tackled by a gang of security guards it helped his case when the results came back that the machine was indeed malfunctioning and he never had a chance of winning. Juries don't like hearing the little guy being cheated and also beaten by security thugs.
Quote: kewljBob, I don't know what you are watching. .
I saw the guy arguing and waving his arms.
Then he stopped talking and his arms were
at his side. Security attempted to remove
him and he went nuts. That's what I saw.
If he had kept his cool they wouldn't have
had to take him down.
They go to take an arm on either side,
which is procedure, and the guy immediately
drops his weight down 6", look at his knees
bend. This is a big no no when dealing with
any kind of authority figures. If you start to
resist, like he did in a massive fashion, they
are trained to take you down.
I was a bouncer in my bar for over 3 years,
I've seen cops in action. If you try and resist
in any way they will put you on the floor.
It's not like a TV show where fists fly, they
will do anything to get you on the ground without
you being able to fight back.
They were wrongly kicking this guy out because a computer glitch or problem didn't show them as a guest.
Instead of checking out the guys story, they escalated it by kicking out a guest.
Clowns.
I deal with clients and computers all day.
Somebody tells me they should be in the system and are not.
My 1st thought is, uh oh, somebody probably screwed up.
I then listen to the client to gather information to solve the problem.
You don't just take the word of the computer. What a bunch of clowns.
"No sane person can explain the conduct of those videos" Bob Amato, attorney for the plaintiffs.Quote: EvenBobI just watched it again a frame at a time.
They go to take an arm on either side,
which is procedure, and the guy immediately
drops his weight down 6", look at his knees
bend. This is a big no no when dealing with
any kind of authority figures. If you start to
resist, like he did in a massive fashion, they
are trained to take you down.
I was a bouncer in my bar for over 3 years,
I've seen cops in action. If you try and resist
in any way they will put you on the floor.
It's not like a TV show where fists fly, they
will do anything to get you on the ground without
you being able to fight back.
Quote: onenickelmiracle"No sane person can explain the conduct of those videos" Bob Amato, attorney for the plaintiffs.
'OJ is obviously innocent.' OJ Simpson's attorney.
I'm sane and I already explained it. Watch it
without prejudice and you'll see the guy resist
security, violently. What were they supposed
to do. Cops get accused of being thugs all the
time because they take down somebody who
is resisting. Part of the job.
I like democracy. I really do because that is why we are entitled to our own opinion. Most of the time I dont agree with EV, including this time. But we can all speak our mind. Ace of spade would know better about this since he is a trained professional.Quote: EvenBob'OJ is obviously innocent.' OJ Simpson's attorney.
I'm sane and I already explained it. Watch it
without prejudice and you'll see the guy resist
security, violently. What were they supposed
to do. Cops get accused of being thugs all the
time because they take down somebody who
is resisting. Part of the job.
Quote: speedycrapMost of the time I dont agree .
I don't see how anybody who watches the
video cannot see the guy resisted and got
taken down. That's how it works in real
life, get control of the situation when they
resist and get control now.
Quote: EvenBobI don't see how anybody who watches the
video cannot see the guy resisted and got
taken down. That's how it works in real
life, get control of the situation when they
resist and get control now.
WOW!!! Inexcusable-----------------That was AceofSpades response on the first page. EB, AOS is a lawyer even though he is in DIVORCE field. I believe a lawyer with no interest in the case will be able to tell the situation fairly.
Quote: EvenBob'OJ is obviously innocent.' OJ Simpson's attorney.
I'm sane and I already explained it. Watch it
without prejudice and you'll see the guy resist
security, violently. What were they supposed
to do. Cops get accused of being thugs all the
time because they take down somebody who
is resisting. Part of the job.
I agree. This is the first time I have seen the actual security footage. When I read the original article I was sympathetic towards the guy.
But after seeing the actual footage it was obvious that he was screaming and probably saying nasty things to the employees. Security attempted to grab his arms and walk him out which is standard anywhere security walks violent/unreasonable people out... and he violently attacked them and they took him down. In my opinion they did nothing wrong, in fact I am impressed with the grace in the take down move, much more efficient and fluid that I would expect from Casino secuirty.
Quote: GandlerI agree. This is the first time I have seen the actual security footage. When I read the original article I was sympathetic towards the guy.
But after seeing the actual footage it was obvious that he was screaming and probably saying nasty things to the employees. Security attempted to grab his arms and walk him out which is standard anywhere security walks violent/unreasonable people out... and he violently attacked them and they took him down. In my opinion they did nothing wrong, in fact I am impressed with the grace in the take down move, much more efficient and fluid that I would expect from Casino secuirty.
Lets say you go to the front desk to checkin for a 3 night stay.
Everything is good. You are unpacked, clothes hanging the closet, heart medication in the bathroom.
Its all good.
You go to your hotel room, key doesn't work.
All your stuff in in the room including your heart medication.
You go to the front desk, they say too bad, not in the system.
You are a guest, all your stuff is in your room including medicine. You have another night.
Security come over and kicks you out because you are irate and then escalates the situation.
He's a guest. check out the story. Do the sensible thing.
I would be pretty pissed.
Computer glitches happen all the time, generally due to human error. The computer is not the end all. Computer mistakes happen.
No excuse taking down the wife and daughter, again, they are guests. Simply being denied access to their room due to a glitch. You don't kick somebody out because they are irate about the situation. Security went overboard because they incorrectly thought they were dealing with people they thought were not guests.
Quote: GandlerI agree. This is the first time I have seen the actual security footage. When I read the original article I was sympathetic towards the guy.
But after seeing the actual footage it was obvious that he was screaming and probably saying nasty things to the employees. Security attempted to grab his arms and walk him out which is standard anywhere security walks violent/unreasonable people out... and he violently attacked them and they took him down. In my opinion they did nothing wrong, in fact I am impressed with the grace in the take down move, much more efficient and fluid that I would expect from Casino secuirty.
I thought it was professional also. When a
guy is yelling and screaming in your face,
you need to get him out of there. He
plainly resisted them violently and got
taken down. This is procedure everywhere
now, as well it should be. If you can't
behave in public, no matter what your beef
is, you get what's coming to you.
Quote: terapinedLets say you go to the front desk to checkin for a 3 night stay.
Everything is good. You are unpacked, clothes hanging the closet, heart medication in the bathroom.
Its all good.
You go to your hotel room, key doesn't work.
All your stuff in in the room including your heart medication.
You go to the front desk, they say too bad, not in the system.
You are a guest, all your stuff is in your room including medicine. You have another night.
Security come over and kicks you out because you are irate and then escalates the situation.
He's a guest. check out the story. Do the sensible thing.
I would be pretty pissed.
Computer glitches happen all the time, generally due to human error. The computer is not the end all. Computer mistakes happen.
No excuse taking down the wife and daughter, again, they are guests. Simply being denied access to their room due to a glitch. You don't kick somebody out because they are irate about the situation. Security went overboard because they incorrectly thought they were dealing with people they thought were not guests.
Yes, Computer Mistakes do happen. And yes I can understand why he was distraught. However, even in that short clip it was obvious he was being highly aggressive and very likely making threats (that is a pure assumption, but based on his body language and shouting, I think its a reasonable one). Security was obviously trying to calm him down before attempting resolving the issue (you can tell they were trying to act calm and tell him to relax), but he kept going so that is when they attempted to escort him out (which is their right) and he got violent.
The right thing would be go to the front desk and politely complain and he very likely would have gotten a free room and most likely other comps... Which is why in Casinos I always believe in being polite, you get a lot more from management and floor supervisors liking you than you do trying to threaten them (besides the fact that it is general human decency)....
This is perhaps a skewed analogy but this story is almost like (at least the public reaction is mirrored) the Zimmerman/Martin case a couple years ago, everyone is just assuming the big bad casino started the fight.... I am sorry but the guest is clearly the aggressor here, and he appears to be a total jerk, and now since he did not get his way he is trying to get back at them with a lawsuit...
Where exactly would there authority to grab someone and forcibly remove the man come from? No crime was being committed.Quote: EvenBobI thought it was professional also. When a
guy is yelling and screaming in your face,
you need to get him out of there. He
plainly resisted them violently and got
taken down. This is procedure everywhere
now, as well it should be. If you can't
behave in public, no matter what your beef
is, you get what's coming to you.
I also have a friend whom in Virginia was assaulted by security at a bar. He never sued to my knowledge, but he beat the living hell out of one and was found innocent because they attacked him grabbing him by the neck. The judge found he acted reasonably defending himself because they snuck up on him behind his back. He was given a year's probation, then the case was supposed to be expunged. Being a commonwealth state, he was quite scared but put on a good performance.
So that is the key. Did they act reasonably? No because without cornering him against the wall and grabbing his hand from behind him causing him to flinch, which then caused the guards to believe they had set him up for a good excuse to get physical by beating him, this would not have happened. Fault has to lie with Harrah's first for kicking him out based on their own errors, then for creating the scene which led to them beating him. Beating the women, that's just arrogance revealed and should never have happened.
Quote: speedycrapWOW!!! Inexcusable-----------------That was AceofSpades response on the first page. EB, AOS is a lawyer even though he is in DIVORCE field. I believe a lawyer with no interest in the case will be able to tell the situation fairly.
Though I believe that none of us practice personal injury law in New Jersey, I think I can speak for the lawyers on this Board... if we had a New Jersey license, we would happily take this case if offered to us.
Quote: midwestgbThough I believe that none of us practice personal injury law in New Jersey, I think I can speak for the lawyers on this Board... if we had a New Jersey license, we would happily take this case if offered to us.
I'm sure you would....
resisted what? They are not cops. Security didn't act reasonably. Unless this guy was making threats, or they say, they through he was going for a gun, they will pay.Quote: EvenBobI thought it was professional also. When a
guy is yelling and screaming in your face,
you need to get him out of there. He
plainly resisted them violently and got
taken down. This is procedure everywhere
now, as well it should be. If you can't
behave in public, no matter what your beef
is, you get what's coming to you.
I was surrounded and barred from leaving a casino without having committed any crime. I was doing a legal AP maneuver which I prefer not to discuss here.
Although no one laid their hands on me, they surrounded me so that if I wished to move one foot in either direction, I would have to physically bang into them in essence imprisoning me.
This is called false imprisonment and is illegal if the person imprisoned has not committed a crime.
Do not take my word for it--I have retained a well known attorney in such matters. He is quite confident my rights were violated AND NOTHING PHYSICAL OCCURRED.
NOW, these particular people did have security lay their hands on them. All three people were grabbed physically. If a person wishes not to be touched, that is their right if they have not committed any legal offense.
And just to be clear, the key word there is legal. The casino may have rules (like no loud yelling) but they do not decide legal ethics. If they felt the man was loud and obnoxious they were only within their rights to ask him to leave or call the police for a disturbance. Casino security does not have bounds above the law.
Quote: AxelWolfresisted what? They are not cops. Security didn't act reasonably. Unless this guy was making threats or they say, they through he was going for a gun, they will pay.
It's their property, who cares if they are not cops. Property rights should always prevail, they can remove anyone they want. And they gave this guy far too many warnings.
Quote: AxelWolfresisted what? They are not cops. Security didn't act reasonably. Unless this guy was making threats, or they say, they through he was going for a gun, they will pay.
Actually they ARE COPS. 2 of the security goons were off duty Atlantic city policemen that moonlight at Harrahs, which should be problematic for them. Your other point is a valid one. No one was being arrested, so there could not be any resisting. And under those circumstances the Mother and daughter had every right to walk away and when they did, they were pursued and attacked.
Quote: darkozI am not an attorney however let me state a few things I know.
I was surrounded and barred from leaving a casino without having committed any crime. I was doing a legal AP maneuver which I prefer not to discuss here.
Although no one laid their hands on me, they surrounded me so that if I wished to move one foot in either direction, I would have to physically bang into them in essence imprisoning me.
This is called false imprisonment and is illegal if the person imprisoned has not committed a crime.
Do not take my word for it--I have retained a well known attorney in such matters. He is quite confident my rights were violated AND NOTHING PHYSICAL OCCURRED.
NOW, these particular people did have security lay their hands on them. All three people were grabbed physically. If a person wishes not to be touched, that is their right if they have not committed any legal offense.
And just to be clear, the key word there is legal. The casino may have rules (like no loud yelling) but they do not decide legal ethics. If they felt the man was loud and obnoxious they were only within their rights to ask him to leave or call the police for a disturbance. Casino security does not have bounds above the law.
Security seems to enjoy "boxing" people into a corner so they can claim the accused tried to assault them. It's like you can see the door, but moving in any shape or form towards it will constitute arrest. I've been 86'ed, wasn't assaulted, but felt like I had no way to leave without breaking a law or a rule. Mind you this was my first, and I did my best to comply with all gaming agents, but refused to acknowledge security. I even asked the gaming agent I will not speak to him if the security guard was around because I was afraid of him assaulting me. Sure enough the last thing the security guard said to me was I was going to jail.
I'd like to add one last thing; the world needs more Bob Nercessians. I always enjoy listening to his interviews on GWAE because he seems very passionate about being a player's advocate.
Quote: kewljActually they ARE COPS. 2 of the security goons were off duty Atlantic city policemen that moonlight at Harrahs, which should be problematic for them.
HOW IS THIS NOT A CONFLICT OF INTEREST?
Quote: djatcHOW IS THIS NOT A CONFLICT OF INTEREST?
This is actually a long standing tradition in AC. :( And of course, it IS a conflict of interest, in just about any situation where the police are called.
Quote: kewljI would be willing to book any action from anyone on the case up to 10 grand. term: we both will give 10 grand or whatever amount you wish to wizard to hold. If there is a verdict for the plaintiff OR a settlement prior to the case going to court, I win. A verdict for the defendants and you win. Any of you that think there is no case, let me know. :)
I think there is a case. Even though morally I believe the security employees did nothing wrong. But we live in a lawsuit society where people feel the need to act like jerks and sue over the most minute things because they can't man up to their own mistakes.
But I agree as for predicting the outcome of the case you are probably right and that would be a wise bet to make.
Quote: kewljI would be willing to book any action from anyone on the case up to 10 grand. term: we both will give 10 grand or whatever amount you wish to wizard to hold. If there is a verdict for the plaintiff OR a settlement prior to the case going to court, I win. A verdict for the defendants and you win. Any of you that think there is no case, let me know. :)
If I win can I let the whole thing ride on the Wizards challenge to create a winning system?
Did this guy still have belongings in his room? I'm not 100% sure he has to leave without his belongings. Never the less, in this Video how can he leave, he is surrounded? I would like to know what action he took that caused him to be tackled? It looked to me and is his Wife and daughter were attempting to leave. Why were they stopped?Quote: GandlerIt's their property, who cares if they are not cops. Property rights should always prevail, they can remove anyone they want. And they gave this guy far too many warnings.
Quote: AxelWolfDid this guy still have belongings in his room? I'm not 100% sure he has to leave without his belongings. Never the less, in this Video how can he leave, he is surrounded? I would like to know what action he took that caused him to be tackled? It looked to me and is his Wife and daughter were attempting to leave. Why were they stopped?
He is surrounded by people calmly talking to him who are obviously motioning for him to calm down and when they try to walk him off he goes crazy...
Apparently You are watching a longer version of the video then I am and you have sound. Can you send me the one you are watching?Quote: GandlerHe is surrounded by people calmly talking to him who are obviously motioning for him to calm down and when they try to walk him off he goes crazy...
I see him put his arms down, after arguing how they made a mistake, and then he was pounced on. Its to my understanding they have to use reasonable force this didnt look reasonable.
Going crazy? I need to see more they arguing to be considered going crazy.
Quote: AxelWolfApparently You are watching a longer version of the video then I am and you have sound. Can you send me the one you are watching?
I see him put his arms down, after arguing how they made a mistake, and then he was pounced on. Its to my understanding they have to use reasonable force this didnt look reasonable.
Going crazy? I need to see more they arguing to be considered going crazy.
I cant seem to find a full unedited version on youtube right now but here is a report from fox that shows a bit more and different footage. Granted it still is sensationalizing and focuses on the exciting parts and not too much of the lead up. But it shows more footage of the wife being escorted out and such.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzlz8blruEA
-But to clarify my position, was it the wisest use of force? No, probably not. But I'm not going to jump on the Harrah's hating bandwagon. And no, I do not work for Harrah's (or any casino for that matter), in fact I have even been removed (in my view unfairly) from Harrah's by security as well. But I am not the type of person to grind axes, I just move on with life. And as for security being too violent, if I sued everytime I have been grabbed like that by a bouncer I would be a rich man lol. I think its absurd people get so upset over being forced to leave a place, if you are playing or acting in a way a casino does not like just accept your position and their rights and move on. The only (moral) issue I can possibly see, is if they got injured and the Casino did not call EMS (but I would bet that they did, since that would be a silly legal move on their part).
It's one thing being asked to leave for playing in a manner there not conformable with. This in an entirely different situation.Quote: GandlerI cant seem to find a full unedited version on youtube right now but here is a report from fox that shows a bit more and different footage. Granted it still is sensationalizing and focuses on the exciting parts and not too much of the lead up. But it shows more footage of the wife being escorted out and such.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzlz8blruEA
-But to clarify my position, was it the wisest use of force? No, probably not. But I'm not going to jump on the Harrah's hating bandwagon. And no, I do not work for Harrah's (or any casino for that matter), in fact I have even been removed (in my view unfairly) from Harrah's by security as well. But I am not the type of person to grind axes, I just move on with life. And as for security being too violent, if I sued everytime I have been grabbed like that by a bouncer I would be a rich man lol. I think its absurd people get so upset over being forced to leave a place, if you are playing or acting in a way a casino does not like just accept your position and their rights and move on. The only (moral) issue I can possibly see, is if they got injured and the Casino did not call EMS (but I would bet that they did, since that would be a silly legal move on their part).
The security acted unreasonable and used unreasonable force. From the video I seen.
Dose anyone know if there belongings were still in the room at the time they were asked to leave?
Age of the girl? If she was underage this could really pose a problem for the casino. kicking a family out on the street from a hotel room may not be as legal as you think. I realize there are different laws concerning Hotel evictions I would bet there is something in place concerning this, especially if they have no place to go.
Quote: AxelWolfIt's one thing being asked to leave for playing in a manner there not conformable with. This in an entirely different situation.
The security acted unreasonable and used unreasonable force. From the video I seen.
Dose anyone know if there belongings were still in the room at the time they were asked to leave?
Based on what I read it was his second or third day there and he got locked out of his room (so presumably all of his bags were within). and the computer crashes or something so they could not see him on the register and did not want to let him in until they could confirm that it was his room and then he got angry.
Incident 2, clearly that Penn student was no threat, yet he was tackled and beaten by a mob of security. Harrah's response was that he (the Penn student) started the incident, but Harrah's has since dropped the charges. Does THAT tell you something?
Incident 3, may be the most damaging as, the off-duty AC policeman, still in his AC officer's uniform, pulled his nightstick and was moving towards the black guy even before any pushing and shoving took place. He then just mercilessly beat him a number of times, completely unprovoked and not in any kind of danger himself.
If I had to guess how this plays out, The off duty policeman will be fired from the AC police force and will face assault charges. The harrah's chief of security will be let go or retire and Harrah's will settle out of court.
Still quite willing to accept any action. :) EvenBob, you game, or just doing a lot of talking?
Just like a store owner can tell a customer to leave his establishment. If the customer refuses the store owner needs to call the police. He cannot just pick up a baseball bat and take matters into his own hands and start beating someone. If he did, HE would be charged with assault and that is what should occur here.
