Ray Rice suspension
Don't get me wrong, domestic violence is big issue and one that I take very seriously, and Ray Rice's behavior is deplorable. If someone's conduct and actions rise to the level of criminality, they should go to jail and/or prison, and professional athletes should receive no special treatment. Floyd Mayweather went to jail. Such issues should be handled in the criminal justice system. I don't see where the NFL has any place issuing any kind of penalty. I mean if ray Rice worked at Walmart, would he be suspended from work? Let's keep the criminal justice system separate from other things and allow the criminal justice system to work.
It's just not going to happen normally as Wal*mart employees aren't stars of some sort.
He wasn't charged with a crime, yet the NBA divested him of team ownership, solely for racist remarks.
Not all judgment and punishment occurs in the courtroom.
Hello, court of public opinion.
Quote: MrVIf you'll give a bye to domestic violence, would you give Sterling a hearty pat on the back for his racist comments made privately to his mistress?
He wasn't charged with a crime, yet the NBA divested him of team ownership, solely for racist remarks.
Not all judgment and punishment occurs in the courtroom.
Hello, court of public opinion.
Sir, I did not give a bye, to domestic violence. I think I was quite clear about that. Frankly it is offensive that you would say that.
Nor did I give Mr Sterling a "pat on the back". But I did post in the Sterling thread back in late April, that I disagree with the actions of the NBA. I don't think a comparison is even in order as you are exactly right, Sterling committed no crime. And actually you can argue that he was the victim of a crime as the recording made without his knowledge was against California Law. If this was a court of law, that recording would be inadmissible.
Again, I am not defending Sterling. He is an ignorant racist. His punishment should have been rendered by the public in the forms of boycotts. Was Mel Gibson banned from the entertainment industry? His career may have suffered due to public opinion and that should have been the same fate Donald Sterling received. Nor am I defending Ray Rice's actions. They should be addressed in a court of law.
I am just saying let sports be about sports, not political correctness or a substitute for the justice system. And let's face it, many of the people that make their way into professional sports aren't the most upstanding citizens. I mean football attracts people with aggressive and violent characteristics. Now, the NFL is going to act all righteous and appalled when those very characteristic show themselves.
Quote: kewljFor the past couple of days, each time I watched ESPN, I hear about how the public is outraged at how short the suspension Ray Rice received from the NFL is. I am going to take the opposite view and one that I suspect will not be very popular. I don't think Ray Rice should have been suspended at all, by the NFL.
Don't get me wrong, domestic violence is big issue and one that I take very seriously, and Ray Rice's behavior is deplorable. If someone's conduct and actions rise to the level of criminality, they should go to jail and/or prison, and professional athletes should receive no special treatment. Floyd Mayweather went to jail. Such issues should be handled in the criminal justice system. I don't see where the NFL has any place issuing any kind of penalty. I mean if ray Rice worked at Walmart, would he be suspended from work? Let's keep the criminal justice system separate from other things and allow the criminal justice system to work.
I don't think the Walmart analogy is a good one. He probably wouldn't have been in trouble at Walmart but what about being a school teacher? There is a pretty good chance that he would be fired for domestic violence or even lose his act whatever it is and never be able to each again.
The only thing that I disagree with is the disparity that there is. I think that if there is going to be suspensions then there needs to be a clear cut rule with X crime or misconduct = X amount of games. One example off the top of my head. Roethlisberger received 6 games for something that may or may not have happened and he was NEVER charged with a crime. Ray Rice has video showing that he absolutely did something and he only received 2 games. There is no way in hell that is fair and if I were Ben I personally would file a lawsuit for discrimination or something.
Quote: kewljI mean if ray Rice worked at Walmart, would he be suspended from work? Let's keep the criminal justice system separate from other things and allow the criminal justice system to work.
Yes, Absolutely he would be if it made the news. Company's have no tolerance for anything that bring bad press to them. Remember that chick a year or so ago that took a picture flicking off the sign at the tomb of the unknown soldier....fired.
Quote: VCUSkyhawkYes, Absolutely he would be if it made the news. Company's have no tolerance for anything that bring bad press to them. Remember that chick a year or so ago that took a picture flicking off the sign at the tomb of the unknown soldier....fired.
There was that girl on Big Brother that said racist things, she was fired while still on the show. The company even released a press statement so everyone knew so. I think companies like to use bad press to generate good press. Hey look at us, we fire racist people, shop here.
If so then the suspension is acceptable. And maybe insufficient depending on the wording of the clause.
If not, then it's none of the NFL's business.
In my opinion, ALL public figures should have a morality / role model clause in their contract. But that's beside the point.
Quote: DJTeddyBearDid Ray Rice's contract include a morality / role model clause?
If so then the suspension is acceptable. And maybe insufficient depending on the wording of the clause.
If not, then it's none of the NFL's business.
In my opinion, ALL public figures should have a morality / role model clause in their contract. But that's beside the point.
I hear that argument a lot but why should there be? It is the NFLs business and they are free to suspend people as they see fit. However as I said before they need to have a clear cut policy on what gets suspended and for how long. It should not be, well I am in a good mood today so how about 2 games.
He would lose his job while in jail, most likely, if he did indeed work at Walmart. DUH
It would understand that there are talented players who can make a breakthrough right behind the guy who just got in trouble.
It would also understand that players have a short shelf life and keeping around a player or two who gets out of line isn't worth the backlash.
And it would issue a lifetime ban on the first offense.
Of course, people pretend to be outraged, but they forget about it pretty quickly. We view people who protested Michael Vick's re-entry into the league as crazy, not as principled. We value forgiveness and second chances. And we will forget about a guy punching his wife and knocking her unconscious just the same as we will let rich people get away with anything from raping co-eds a la Jameis Winston to whatever it was that Ben Roethlisberger did.
So if people wanted to make a big deal about Ray Rice, they'd vote with their dollars. And we all know people won't do that. So yes, from a business standpoint, a two-game suspension is probably fine and dandy. From a getting-what-he-deserves standpoint, he should be dragged forcibly into the street, lined up against the wall, and shot.
Maybe if Ray Rice never ever played football, he might not have hit a women.
Football causes brain injury.
These football players with this brain injury often scare family members in many different ways.
High school and College players have gotten brain injury playing football.
The longer you play the game, the better chance you will injure your brain.
I predict 20 years from now, football will be a minor sport just like boxing.
Parents these days are educated about the dangers of football and many wont let their kids play. This number will grow.
Quote: DJTeddyBearDid Ray Rice's contract include a morality / role model clause?
The standard player's contract in the Collective Bargaining Agreement has a couple - one enforced by the team, and one enforced by the NFL:
http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/PDFs/General/2011_Final_CBA.pdf
Quote:11. SKILL, PERFORMANCE AND CONDUCT
...if Player has engaged in personal conduct reasonably judged by Club to adversely affect or reflect on Club, then Club may terminate this contract.
Quote:14. INTEGRITY OF GAME
Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players.
Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he
accepts a bribe or agrees to throw or fix an NFL game;
fails to promptly report a bribe offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game;
bets on an NFL game;
knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling activity;
uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance;
or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football,
the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount, to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely, and/or to terminate this contract.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIf not, then it's none of the NFL's business.
Of course it is the NFL's business, and the key word is BUSINESS. I don't think the NFL is giving a suspension because it is the right thing to do, they are doing it to try and protect the image of their business and to continue to making their owners rich.
What a disgusting punk this guy is. Personally, I think they should let him play one more game, while the refs all look the other way during the action. He should receive nothing less than getting his ass knocked out cold.
http://www.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/ray-rice-full-elevator-video-reaction-nfl-players-090814
Revel will always have this curse too
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think he should serve time in jail, but when he's out I think that he should be allowed to work, just like anyone else at any other job.
Right or wrong though, sports stars don't have jobs like the rest of us. They are role models, whether they want to be or not, and thus, they need to be held to higher standards. They are also paid handsomely for the added burdens that come with being sports celebrities. I'm sorry, but they just can't choose to say I don't want to be a role model.
And, btw, many companies would not allow you to come back to work after you served time for this kind of violence.
Yes, it is a bit unfair that the whole world gets to see the violence on video, since you and I would probably not have to worry about a video of us drawing any interest from others, but again, that comes when you choose certain high profile occupations.
Quote: RaleighCrapsRight or wrong though, sports stars don't have jobs like the rest of us. They are role models, whether they want to be or not, and thus, they need to be held to higher standards. They are also paid handsomely for the added burdens that come with being sports celebrities. I'm sorry, but they just can't choose to say I don't want to be a role model.
I disagree with this vehemently. We the public determine who is and who is not a role model. None of that burden belongs on the individual and they should not have to live to higher standards that we set for the rest of society. The real question is why do we allow our children to accept people that we know little about as their role models? It is a parents job to set standards and guidelines for children and to make them understand what is important in life.
Quote: DRichI disagree with this vehemently. We the public determine who is and who is not a role model. None of that burden belongs on the individual and they should not have to live to higher standards that we set for the rest of society. The real question is why do we allow our children to accept people that we know little about as their role models? It is a parents job to set standards and guidelines for children and to make them understand what is important in life.
I agree with this. I think he should be kicked out of the league. The league is a business and just about all businesses that pay their employees top end money would fire someone like this.
Quote: RaleighCrapsRight or wrong though, sports stars don't have jobs like the rest of us. They are role models, whether they want to be or not, and thus, they need to be held to higher standards. They are also paid handsomely for the added burdens that come with being sports celebrities. I'm sorry, but they just can't choose to say I don't want to be a role model.
And, btw, many companies would not allow you to come back to work after you served time for this kind of violence.
Yes, it is a bit unfair that the whole world gets to see the violence on video, since you and I would probably not have to worry about a video of us drawing any interest from others, but again, that comes when you choose certain high profile occupations.
They are not role models; they are just athletes. If people want to do a lousy job of parenting and let the TV raise their kids, that is their fault, not the athletes'.
As far as being paid "handsomely", when you consider the length of their careers and the long-term health effects, I disagree.
And, of course a company would let you come back and work, particularly if you are one of the top few people in the world at doing your job.
NFL is just reacting to what they know was coming from the media. But if he never comes back the NFL conspired with the owners to not allow him back. They allowed Vick back, who did FAR worse. This lady forgave him and married him. So give him the 6 game suspension you give for this crime and then he is free to sign with any team that will have him. America, the land of 2nd chances, unless the media can use you to push an agenda.
Quote: BozThis lady forgave him and married him. So give him the 6 game suspension you give for this crime and then he is free to sign with any team that will have him. America, the land of 2nd chances, unless the media can use you to push an agenda.[/q
You think that this lady married him out of true love? Give me a break, this has everything to do with money and public perception of a star athlete on an NFL team. I would hazard a guess that this marriage does not last more than 2 years and she becomes a wealthy women who is setup for the rest of her life. I am not a lawyer but I would imagine that it is difficult to prosecute a defendant if the alleged victim married and testifies on his behalf.
In this case I believe that the punishment did not fit the crime. Does anyone on here believe that the NFL did not have the resources to obtain and have complete knowledge of the video released today prior to the suspension? The initial suspension was a business move to protect its revenue with the hope that this would just go away. The NFL and Ravens are in damage control mode. (indefinite suspension/ release)
I would propose that Goodell suspend himself if he had knowledge of this video before issuing this punishment. His salary should go to a charity for domestic violence. He of all people must understand what a nightmare scenario this could become for the league.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think he should serve time in jail, but when he's out I think that he should be allowed to work, just like anyone else at any other job.
He would be allowed to work, but tt doesn't mean he gets to work in the field he wants to. Working in the field you want to is not a right. Employers have the right to hire who they want. Maybe someone would take him back on an NFL team, maybe not. If not he would have to try another profession, just like any one of us if we couldn't get a job in the line of work we wanted.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13He would be allowed to work, but tt doesn't mean he gets to work in the field he wants to. Working in the field you want to is not a right. Employers have the right to hire who they want. Maybe someone would take him back on an NFL team, maybe not. If not he would have to try another profession, just like any one of us if we couldn't get a job in the line of work we wanted.
I'm sure that a lot of teams would be happy to have him back on the field. He is still one of the best running backs in the world.
It doesn't really make sense to compare him to a Walmart employee. Walmart is just grabbing people who aren't able to do any other job. It's not like it really matters who is stacking the shelves or ignoring the customers; the next guy to apply for the job can do it just as well as the current guy. Being a "good employee" basically must means that you show up on time and don't steal anything.
This is different; there are maybe 2 or 3 people in the world who can do the same job as Ray Rice does, on the same level.
Quote: onenickelmiracleJust saw the video and she looked like she was attacking him running at him. Too much force, but women shouldn't attack men either. I don't feel sorry for her based on the circumstances.
He's a professional athlete. His punch could have been deadly.
One punch homicide.
Happens.
Happens a lot sadly.
Happened up the street from me recently.
High school football player throws one punch in the Steak and Shake parking lot.
Murder.
2 families devastated. One dead, other going to prison. One punch homicide.
Great article by Eric Adelson - culture of blaming the victim.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/culture-of-blaming-the-victim-is-root-cause-of-failure-for-nfl--ravens-in-ray-rice-case-220237076.html
Greg Hardy played yesterday, guess who he beat up recently. Disgusting.
He downed her with one punch. Note that the punch (probably) did not knock her out. It knocked her down and she hit her head on the railing, which knocked her out. It seems like a reasonable amount of force to me -- what is he supposed to do when attacked? Stand there and take it? If anyone is guilty of domestic violence it is her.
First problem you don't know what homicide and victim means. She is the aggressor, who happened to lose and isn't a victim. Defending yourself isn't necessarily homicide. Consider she has acted with premeditated thought waiting for the elevator where there are no witnesses she knew of, so we can call her a victim of stupidity. He loses in the court of public opinion unfortunately for him he didn't take her beating and get rid of her pronto.Quote: terapinedHe's a professional athlete. His punch could have been deadly.
One punch homicide.
Happens.
Happens a lot sadly.
Happened up the street from me recently.
High school football player throws one punch in the Steak and Shake parking lot.
Murder.
2 families devastated. One dead, other going to prison. One punch homicide.
Great article by Eric Adelson - culture of blaming the victim.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/culture-of-blaming-the-victim-is-root-cause-of-failure-for-nfl--ravens-in-ray-rice-case-220237076.html
Greg Hardy played yesterday, guess who he beat up recently. Disgusting.
Quote: BozThey allowed Vick back, who did FAR worse.
Wait, WHAT? I mean, Mike Vick is a reprehensible scumbag who tortured animals. You can say Ray Rice was defending himself from an assault, but this was not a stranger who was assaulting him, and she did not have any help from another assailant. He clearly should have been able to keep her at bay without a punch to the face, which could have potentially killed her. Is she a female MMA star? Boxer? I know nothing about the woman, but she does not look like an athlete to me; certainly not one who could have a fair fight with a NFL running back. Mike Vick's crimes were certainly premeditated and this was not, but I can think of a few other ways of dealing with this beyond slugging a physically inferior person in the face - he could have gotten off the elevator at the next floor, he could have held her at arm's length, played defensive. If she had died, would you still say that what Mike Vick did was far worse?
Quote: DaddydocWait, WHAT? I mean, Mike Vick is a reprehensible scumbag who tortured animals. You can say Ray Rice was defending himself from an assault, but this was not a stranger who was assaulting him, and she did not have any help from another assailant. He clearly should have been able to keep her at bay without a punch to the face, which could have potentially killed her. Is she a female MMA star? Boxer? I know nothing about the woman, but she does not look like an athlete to me; certainly not one who could have a fair fight with a NFL running back. Mike Vick's crimes were certainly premeditated and this was not, but I can think of a few other ways of dealing with this beyond slugging a physically inferior person in the face - he could have gotten off the elevator at the next floor, he could have held her at arm's length, played defensive. If she had died, would you still say that what Mike Vick did was far worse?
He is under no obligation to retreat from an attacker. He can't use more than a reasonable amount of force to repel the attack, but I'm not sure that he did. It did not look like he hit her full force. Most of the damage was done by her hitting the railing, which was a bit of bad luck on her part.
The fact remains that she was the aggressor here. He just reacted. If you attack someone, and get slugged in the face, it's your fault. If you don't want to get slugged in the face, don't attack people.
Are you freakin serious? You act like this was some random stranger who may have had a weapon. No, this was his fiancee. Also, Rice is almost 220 lbs. I can't kick this guy's ass, so an average sized woman ain't gonna be able to do sh*t.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHe is under no obligation to retreat from an attacker. He can't use more than a reasonable amount of force to repel the attack, but I'm not sure that he did. It did not look like he hit her full force. Most of the damage was done by her hitting the railing, which was a bit of bad luck on her part.
The fact remains that she was the aggressor here. He just reacted. If you attack someone, and get slugged in the face, it's your fault. If you don't want to get slugged in the face, don't attack people.
You keep saying, what is he supposed to do? Well, take a look at when Jay-Z got attacked by Solange Knowles. She went a hell of a lot crazier on him than Rice's fiancee, yet Jay-Z kept his cool and didn't even attempt to strike.
And finally, do you read the whole story. Rice struck her FIRST, then she struck him, then he punched her in the face.
Watch for yourself:
Quote: Beethoven9thAre you freakin serious? You act like this was some random stranger who may have had a weapon. No, this was his fiancee. Also, Rice is almost 220 lbs. I can't kick this guy's ass, so an average sized woman ain't gonna be able to do sh*t.
I am very serious. Everyone has the right to defend themselves.
Quote:And finally, do you read the whole story. Rice struck her FIRST, then she struck him, then he punched her in the face.
I did not see that in the video. Then again, the video was pretty poor and appeared to have some gaps. If that's what happened then that would obviously change things.
That said, two conscious people got on that elevator. Only one got off. No idea of their relationship or physicality before (or after) that moment in time. He's a professional athlete in peak condition. She's a woman, smaller, shorter. He had options short of battery, and chose not to use them. So, I'm not buying blaming her for this; he could have slapped her hands away, grabbed an arm and sat her down, pushed her away, assuming she was attacking in the first place. He cold-cocked her and just let her lie there until he had to drag the baggage out the door. If she's guilty of anything, it's being greedy enough to marry him after that.
I would guess he's in more trouble now than had he/they tried to spin how it went in the first place. They probably didn't know there was a camera inside the elevator. Or how badly the NFL and others would react to the incident. Forgive, hell; it was all about damage control and earnings after that. Now she gets half of nothing.
On the other hand, if they were just arguing (verbally) and she attacked him with not physical provocation (which is what it looked like from the "video", which may not be accurate because it has some gaps) and he dropped her, too bad for her. She should not have attacked him. I think that when you attack someone you have to accept the very real risk that you will get punched in the face.
Quote: BeardgoatShe attacked him. What? Are we watching the same video?
Apparently we were not; the version that I had originally seen skipped from them standing in the elevator to her lunging at him.
My beef is not with him defending himself; I am a strong proponent of being prepared to defend yourself (and others, if necessary), and carrying a firearm if you are comfortable with doing so. His response appears to be disproportionate to the attack, and the attack was not a surprise attack from an unknown assailant. You can't just shoot someone for simply coming onto your property (except in Texas), and you should expect the DA to have a chat with you if you do so.
He clearly was not the aggressor, but this is a woman he supposedly loves and with whom he would consider making babies. My bride and I have had our share of marital spats, but I cannot imagine striking my wife at all let alone a left cross to the chin. As I said above, there are more appropriate ways of defending yourself against an angry spouse than by trying to KO her. Did she have a weapon? She certainly didn't threaten him with it and he has not said that he was afraid of her, AFAIK.
He's a running back. 4 years high school, 3 years college.
Pros 6 years 1430 times he has carried the ball professionally. That's a lot of punishment, some to the head.
What would a normal regular guy do in these types of situations. Control her arms. That's what we all do. She comes in pissed off and close, you 1st reaction is to control her arms grabbing or blocking.
But taking a swing, no way. Really makes me wonder. CTE?
Quote: ParadigmI think he spit on her twice.....once as she passed in front of him while he was standing by the column and again when he had her cornered in the elevator. If he didn't spit, he made some antagonistic motion while leaning his head towards her which invoked her to react both times.
That is also what I see.
Quote: terapinedI wonder if Chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) has anything to do with this.
He's a running back. 4 years high school, 3 years college.
Pros 6 years 1430 times he has carried the ball professionally. That's a lot of punishment, some to the head.
What would a normal regular guy do in these types of situations. Control her arms. That's what we all do. She comes in pissed off and close, you 1st reaction is to control her arms grabbing or blocking.
But taking a swing, no way. Really makes me wonder. CTE?
or what would a sober person do?
+1Quote: DaddydocHis response appears to be disproportionate to the attack, and the attack was not a surprise attack from an unknown assailant.
...there are more appropriate ways of defending yourself against an angry spouse than by trying to KO her
Exactly the point. If this were an unknown stranger with an unknown background, then it would be a different story.
Also, I keep hearing people say that she "attacked" and/or "lunged" at him. Unless we're watching different videos, the fiancee angrily walked up to him—maybe about a step and a half—with her purse (?) under her right arm and with an open left hand. She then got nailed in the face. Sure didn't look to me like she was winding up for a punch.
I just think this is one of those rare cases where it's quite obvious that the amount of forced used wasn't necessary. This is a 220 lbs professional athlete, folks. An average sized woman (who's his fiancee!) with a purse under her arm and an open left hand isn't going to hurt him by walking toward him.
+1Quote: ParadigmI think he spit on her twice.....once as she passed in front of him while he was standing by the column and again when he had her cornered in the elevator. If he didn't spit, he made some antagonistic motion while leaning his head towards her which invoked her to react both times.
Good point.
