Curious
Quote: soxfanThe consensus seems to be that casinos love cats who use "systems" and run deep negative progressions. If so, then why are so many joints downright stingy as far as offering a nice fat spread between min/max bets, hey hey?
I don't think it is only about issues with marty but rather what a casino is willing to expose themselves to at certain levels. This is their first and foremost concern. You can't just give a person the ability to bet $100,000 on any table as your exposure would be too large.
Secondary considerations is spread betting.
Quote: TomspurSecondary considerations is spread betting.
I understand that might be a concern at bj, but shouldn't be with dice, and baccarats, hey hey.
Quote: soxfanThe consensus seems to be that casinos love cats who use "systems" and run deep negative progressions. If so, then why are so many joints downright stingy as far as offering a nice fat spread between min/max bets, hey hey?
The bottom line is that a casino can only risk so much money on a single bet. The Kelly Criterion applies to them too.
At the single zero roulette wheel in the pit at the Borgata, the limits on 1:1 bets are $5000, and on a single number you can bet up to $1000. The 5k limit makes no sense because I can just put $1000 on every black number and thus have $18,000 on black. Or do that plus put the 5000 on black and have 23,000 on black. This allows a Martingaler to double up almost 9 times.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDon't they still have a $50k limits on the craps tables at Caesar's? Or is it $100k?
Funny but those limits, in the Salons in Macau are made to look small. They take up to $400,000 bets in the private rooms there. Seems like that may just be a smidgeon too much for me :)
It not only lets a player get out of hole he dug for himself but it also lets a lucky player build up to a massive bet .... all with the house's money. The casino is perfectly willing to throw a life line to a man drowning at Martingale Vortex, just not a very long one.Quote: soxfanthen why are so many joints downright stingy as far as offering a nice fat spread between min/max bets, hey hey?
Quote: LVJackalVariance. Some casinos' bankrolls can handle it, some cannot.
This is exactly it. Like I said, Kelly Criterion applies to the casino too. If you go to a large, well-funded place, you can play very large bet spreads. If you go to a small grind joint they are not going to let you bet $10k per hand because if you get lucky you will bankrupt them. (Just like an AP will not overbet his bankroll, unless he likes being broke all the time)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThis is exactly it. Like I said, Kelly Criterion applies to the casino too.
Again, potential use of the kelly style plan should not be an issue at the baccarats, or dice where there is no "advantage" to be had, hey hey.
Why wouldn't the Kelly Criterion apply to the casino?Quote: soxfanAgain, potential use of the kelly style plan should not be an issue at the baccarats, or dice where there is no "advantage" to be had, hey hey.
Quote: rob45Why wouldn't the Kelly Criterion apply to the casino?
Why would a cat use the kelly style mm plan at the dice or baccarats where he is bucking up against a -ev, hey hey?
Quote: soxfanWhy would a cat use the kelly style mm plan at the dice or baccarats where he is bucking up against a -ev, hey hey?
Kelly betting is designed for bettors that have an advantage in a game to avoid bankroll ruin and increase their bankroll at the same time. A casino (who has the advantage in dice or baccarat) would want to avoid bankroll ruin, wouldn't they?
We're not talking about the player (who has -EV) utilizing Kelly.Quote: soxfanWhy would a cat use the kelly style mm plan at the dice or baccarats where he is bucking up against a -ev, hey hey?
We're talking about the casino (who has +EV) being able to establish table maximums based upon their "bankroll".
How familiar are you with the Kelly Criterion?
Quote: soxfanAgain, potential use of the kelly style plan should not be an issue at the baccarats, or dice where there is no "advantage" to be had, hey hey.
What does that have to do with anything? Do you understand the Kelly Criterion?
The house has a fixed edge in baccarat. That means that they should bet no more than a fixed percentage of their net worth on the game.
A small casino without a lot of assets simply cannot afford to take very large bets. Just like an AP with a small bankroll cannot afford to make large bets. Edge or not, if you overbet your bankroll, you will eventually go broke. The casino has the edge over all the baccarat players, but that doesn't mean that they can bet arbitrarily large amounts. They have a bankroll too, and they can't overbet it,
Quote: soxfanWhy would a cat use the kelly style mm plan at the dice or baccarats where he is bucking up against a -ev, hey hey?
-EV for the player implies positive EV for the casino. As such, the casino needs to use the Kelly Criterion to calculate the largest bet that it can afford.
Then why is it that Caesar's was always phoning Benny Binion and asking for overnight guarantees of 35 to 55 million dollars? Caesars offered the high limits and high spreads. But Benny Binion was making the money on it.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThis is exactly it. Like I said, Kelly Criterion applies to the casino too. If you go to a large, well-funded place, you can play very large bet spreads. If you go to a small grind joint they are not going to let you bet $10k per hand because if you get lucky you will bankrupt them. (Just like an AP will not overbet his bankroll, unless he likes being broke all the time)
Quote: FleaStiffThen why is it that Caesar's was always phoning Benny Binion and asking for overnight guarantees of 35 to 55 million dollars? Caesars offered the high limits and high spreads.
Rumor or fact? Did they pay interest?
Hey, Benny Binion was a hell of a nice guy but I don't think he ever made any multi-million dollar overnite guarantees to other casinos without charging interest on it. I mean, what casino owner would? He was just cheaper and faster than if Caesars had gone through their bank.Quote: NokTangDid they pay interest?
Quote: rob45Why wouldn't the Kelly Criterion apply to the casino?
yes, I understand the kelly mm and how it applies to casinos but back to my original point. If casinos really do love system players, who run deep negative progressions then they should accomadate em with large spreads between min/max bets, hey hey.
Quote: soxfanyes, I understand the kelly mm and how it applies to casinos but back to my original point. If casinos really do love system players, who run deep negative progressions then they should accomadate em with large spreads between min/max bets, hey hey.
Once again, because they can only accept bets of a certain size, due to the Kelly Criterion.
If you understand the answer, why are you asking the same question again?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOnce again, because they can only accept bets of a certain size, due to the Kelly Criterion.
If you understand the answer, why are you asking the same question again?
In part, I asked because the small handful of joints in the Las Vegas that offer 1000 unit spreads are mostly low roller types like the Binions, Jerry's Nugget, etc. And if it is about bankroll and risk management then it should be the more well heeled joints offering fat spreads, hey hey.
http://vegasmadeeasy.com/gaming/craps
Quote: soxfanIn part, I asked because the small handful of joints in the Las Vegas that offer 1000 unit spreads are mostly low roller types like the Binions, Jerry's Nugget, etc. And if it is about bankroll and risk management then it should be the more well heeled joints offering fat spreads, hey hey.
That does not follow at all. Minimum bet is mostly a function of how much money you need in order to keep the place running profitably (ie, how nice the place is), as well as what you can get away with. Max bet is mostly a function to how much money you have on hand. There is no reason to believe that the nicer places would have larger spreads; while you'd expect them to have higher maximums (which they tend to), you'd also expect them to have much higher minimums, maybe even raising the minimums so much that spread gets narrower.
FWIW, Casear's offers larger bet spreads than 1-1000. How big are you looking for, exactly?
Also, if you erroneously believe that a large bet spread can beat a -EV game, you can feel free to travel from casino to casino and play an extremely large spread. This would be easy to do in Vegas. Start out downtown, and if you start losing and hit the table max, go to the strip and continue your progression.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
Also, if you erroneously believe that a large bet spread can beat a -EV game, you can feel free to travel from casino to casino and play an extremely large spread. This would be easy to do in Vegas. Start out downtown, and if you start losing and hit the table max, go to the strip and continue your progression.
That is almost funny. Everyone knows when you walk away from a table/casino it all starts over. The progression is no longer valid.
Why not?Quote: NokTangThat is almost funny. Everyone knows when you walk away from a table/casino it all starts over. The progression is no longer valid.
Not that they should continue after the system tanks, quitting is probably the first GOOD decision the system believer makes.
Quote: Mission146That's another excellent point, better a $5-$500 mistake than a $5-$5000 mistake.
Not only for mistakes, but also for service. There is a reason that casinos have high limit rooms, or high-limit pits -- it's so that the "good customers" can be given better service. High-limit rooms often have their own bars with higher-priced liquor, for example, and they have their own dedicated waitresses who come by more frequently, and are actually friendly (and usually way more attractive)
Quote: FleaStiffHey, Benny Binion was a hell of a nice guy but I don't think he ever made any multi-million dollar overnite guarantees to other casinos without charging interest on it. I mean, what casino owner would? He was just cheaper and faster than if Caesars had gone through their bank.
Any additional references to this? I like reading these stories.
