Wendover
_______________
I have to change the above statement also. I took a trip to Billings, Montana, I think it was late spring, 2007.
I was going to finish this Wendover story today. But my buddy Hap invited to go hot potting. It's my favorite Montana winter pastime. We got natural hot springs all over the state. We going to go down to White Sulphur Springs and jump into some 104 degree water.
1. Video Poker
2. Mystery Progressives
3. Green Stamps
4. Live Poker
5. Tournaments.
I'll start with video poker first. By 2006 the Peppermill properties no longer had any exploitable progressives. Their best game was NSUD. It was everywhere but I had no reason to play it. The exploitable games were in the Wendover Nugget. There were quarter progressives at two of the bars. They were multi-game progressives, all on the same meter, with the best game being 9/6 Jacks and a 0.4% meter. I would play these games as low as $1400 because I didn't have to worry about running the meter up then some team come in and snap it off. No teams in Wendover....and the locals weren't all that sharp either.
Out on the casino floor was a bank of dollar multi-game progressives, all on the same meter, with the best game being 9/6 Jacks and a 0.75% meter. I would play this game as low as $6000 because....no teams in Wendover and the locals ain't all that sharp either.
The Nugget had exploitable drawings too. Tickets were based on action. Sometimes, if I didn't have a playable number on the dollar progressive I would play $5 NSUD to run the drawing tickets fast.
The slot card was 0.5% comp. They had a buffet, restaurant, and a Quizno's. When I banked up a lot of comp I would use it for hotel rooms at the Nugget. This is not a fancy joint. The rooms are adequate, but they have 40 channels on the TV. The Peppermill properties only have about 10.
I got way over royaled at the Nugget in 2007 and drew zero heat, but more about that later.
One thing I failed to mention was, being Diamond Card level, the Peppermill properties gave me a $200 voucher every month. And I got $40 to $60 freeplay every two weeks at the Nugget.
more later....
Quote: petroglyphPretty cool there Mickeycrimm!
Thanks.
And just another Great Mickey story!
Quote: djatcmickey, how would you do things if you were to start out today? It seems like everything is tightened up, and plays that require small bankrolls are non-existent. I'm talking about $1k or less.
Drop me off in a lonely gambling town without a dollar in my pocket. I will find a way up and out of the spot. That's my true belief, brother.
Quote: mickeycrimmDrop me off in a lonely gambling town without a dollar in my pocket. I will find a way up and out of the spot. That's my true belief, brother.
It is amazing the creativity of these pros. Most of them are playing the highest returning game and making a good hourly, but the real good ones can figure out ways to extract money out of casinos that are ingenious, that take less risk and more benefits.
Quote: mickeycrimmSo I had a total free ride in Wendover. But a guy has to make a little money when he's in town, right? I had five profit centers:
1. Video Poker
2. Mystery Progressives
3. Green Stamps
4. Live Poker
5. Tournaments.[/q
I have to amend this statement to include:
6. Sports Betting. It wasn't that big of a factor for me in Wendover but it did play a roll. I'm sorry for my memory loss. I'm 60 years old. Please forgive me for it."Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
I defiantly know he AP's bars at night.Quote: GWAEMickey I really enjoy all of your stories. Just curious what you are doing with your career now. Are you still playing as an AP for a living?
Quote: GWAEMickey I really enjoy all of your stories. Just curious what you are doing with your career now. Are you still playing as an AP for a living?
Yes, I still play machines for a living. I wong progressives and banking games and progressive/banking games and work short term overlays. I've been taking it very easy through the holidays though. My next roadtrip will probably be towards the end of this month.
Quote: djatcmickey, how would you do things if you were to start out today? It seems like everything is tightened up, and plays that require small bankrolls are non-existent. I'm talking about $1k or less.
I know exactly what I would do if I only had a $1000 starting bankroll but I can't tell because I would be giving away some of my current plays. Being a stone cold drifter I had an advantage that sharp gamblers with other careers didn't have. I worked the whole state of Nevada. And I worked some in the Midwest. Whatever town I found a strong play in I would just hole up in that town. Once the play dried up I moved on until I found another strong play and holed up in that town.
I'm too old now to try and jump start a big time poker career. I think I made a mistake by passing up that opportunity in the late nineties. I'm really just a middle class gambler. I'm not getting rich, just making a living. Most machine pros are on the bottom of the gambling totem pole. The big time poker players, big time sports bettors, big time blackjack players all make a lot more money than the average machine pro. With the conditions that exist in the gambling world today, if I were younger, I would take the money I make off machines and do everything I could to propel myself into big time poker
Quote: mickeycrimmI know exactly what I would do if I only had a $1000 starting bankroll but I can't tell because I would be giving away some of my current plays. Being a stone cold drifter I had an advantage that sharp gamblers with other careers didn't have. I worked the whole state of Nevada. And I worked some in the Midwest. Whatever town I found a strong play in I would just hole up in that town. Once the play dried up I moved on until I found another strong play and holed up in that town.
I'm too old now to try and jump start a big time poker career. I think I made a mistake by passing up that opportunity in the late nineties. I'm really just a middle class gambler. I'm not getting rich, just making a living. Most machine pros are on the bottom of the gambling totem pole. The big time poker players, big time sports bettors, big time blackjack players all make a lot more money than the average machine pro. With the conditions that exist in the gambling world today, if I were younger, I would take the money I make off machines and do everything I could to propel myself into big time poker
If money were that important to you, I think you would've made a lot of different choices, mickey, not just the regret you expressed about not getting into poker. I get the idea you are exactly who you want to be.
Quote: beachbumbabsIf money were that important to you, I think you would've made a lot of different choices, mickey, not just the regret you expressed about not getting into poker. I get the idea you are exactly who you want to be.
Well, Babs, perhaps I should change the statement to "I MAY have made a mistake by passing up that opportunity."
Quote: mickeycrimmWell, Babs, perhaps I should change the statement to "I MAY have made a mistake by passing up that opportunity."
Maybe so, but I think you're one of a kind; whether you have lots of regrets is pretty much up to you, but there's that Popeye thing you got going that's enjoyable about you.
Next on the list was the Mystery Progressives. All three Peppermill properties had linked banks of an IGT nine-line penny video game called Coyote Cash. The max bet was $4.50. All three banks had triple meter Mystery Progressives. The bottom meter was 10-25 and ran at 2%. The middle meter was 100-250 and ran at 1%. The top meter was 500-1000 and ran at .5%. I had to come up with some playable numbers. With the meter speeds being what they were and the amount of action the banks were getting it wasn't like I was gonna get a lot of plays in a short period of time. So I wanted a conservative strategy. The Peppermill properties are known for higher than average payback on their slots. So I ballparked the overall payback at 90%. I wanted to know how much payback was represented by the Mystery Progressives.
The way I do it is add the lower parameter and the upper parameter together then divide by two to get the average hit. In the case of the 10-25 meter its $17.50. How much action does it take to move the meter from $10 to $17.50? It's a 2% meter so:
$7.50 X 50 = $375
!7.50/375 = 4.6667%
The average hit on the middle meter is $175. How much action does it take to move the meter from $100 to $175? It runs at 1% so:
$75 X 100 = $7,500
175/7500 = 2.3333%
The average hit on the top meter is $750. How much action does it take to move the meter from $500 to $750? It runs at .5% so:
$250 X 200 = $50,000
750/50000 = 1.5%
So the Mystery Progressives were worth 8.5% of the payback. Estimating the overall payback of the game at 90% I figured to get dropped for 18.5% between Mystery Progressive hits. Now I could work on playable numbers.
For the bottom meter I settled on $21. Jumping in at $21 meant the average hit would be $23.00. With a 2% meter it would take $100 in action to move the meter to that point. With the 18.5% drop that would be a cost of $18.50 unless....I hit the middle or top meter during the play.
For the middle meter I settled on $225. The average hit from that point would be $237.50. With the 18.5% drop the cost would be:
12.5 X 100 X 18.5% = $231. Except....I knew I was gonna get my share of bottom meter hits during the play. That would be the edge.
For the top meter I settled on $950. The average hit from that point would be $975. With the 18.5% drop between Mystery Progressive hits the cost figured to be $925 except, I knew I was going to get my share of bottom meter hits, and even middle meter hits, during the play. That would be the edge.
Theres some variance in this play but if you can get in the volume you will make the money.
The important thing when you jump in on a play is don't jack around. Load two machines if you can and turbo play at max bet. The Mystery Progressives are triggered by a random coin number. You want to be the one who bets it. A case in point:
One morning I came out of my hotel room at the Rainbow and the Coyote Cash middle meter was at $243. There was one lone player, a drunken lady all zoned out. She was betting five pennies per line. A 45 coin bet. And she was on slow speed. The reels were dropping in boop....boop....boop....boop....boop. I went around to the other side of the bank, loaded two machines, hit max bet and turbo played. I was betting in blocks of 450 coins. I was getting in an 1800 coin wager every five seconds while she was getting out just a 45 coin wager every five seconds. Who do you think is the favorite to bet the coin that triggers the Mystery Progressive? She's a 40 to one dog to hit it. A minute later I hit the Mystery, cashed out and went got a cup of coffee.
Maybe sell it in a 2-pack with a Frank Scoblete book for maximum value.
Quote: PerditionYou know a book with math plays mixed in with road stories I think would be an interesting read. Always entertaining to read these posts.
Maybe sell it in a 2-pack with a Frank Scoblete book for maximum value.
I don't know much about Frank Scoblete. Except, I think he has written books and articles teaching negative expectation gamblers how not to lose so fast. I'm wondering in my mind just how commendable such an endeavor is. Instead of teaching people how to win, teach them how not to lose so fast? What an incredible endeavor. I'm shocked. I'm beholden to the Frank Scoblete's of the world....for showing me what the hell I ain't gonna be....a stone cold loser like the idiots that the Frankie's of the world teach.
I'm not defending Frankie in any way whatsoever, but what dose he teach wrong? I often get caught up in debunking Rob Singers crap but after seeing Teliots website, It was unsettling and I now think, I should encourage people to take RS advice. perhaps we need more suckers on Video poker. Teliot makes Bob look like a saint. I now defiantly think less talk about old plays, is probably for the best for AP's.Quote: mickeycrimmI don't know much about Frank Scoblete. Except, I think he has written books and articles teaching negative expectation gamblers how not to lose so fast. I'm wondering in my mind just how commendable such an endeavor is. Instead of teaching people how to win, teach them how not to lose so fast? What an incredible endeavor. I'm shocked. I'm beholden to the Frank Scoblete's of the world....for showing me what the hell I ain't gonna be....a stone cold loser like the idiots that the Frankie's of the world teach.
Quote: djatcDid you find it hard to stop a play if the progressive hit and made it negative?
Have you ever been in a bigtime race for a progressive jackpot? What's the sound you hear immediately after the jackpot gets hit? CLANG! CLANG! CLANG! as the coins hit the tray. That's the rest of the players cashing out and hitting the door leaving the place looking like a ghost town.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm not defending Frankie in any way whatsoever, but what dose he teach wrong? I often get caught up in debunking Rob Singers crap but after seeing Teliots website, It was unsettling and I now think, I should encourage people to take RS advice. perhaps we need more suckers on Video poker. Teliot makes Bob look like a saint. I now defiantly think less talk about old plays, is probably for the best for AP's.
I don't know. Maybe I have Scoblete confused with John Patrick. Anyways, I have it in for idiots that try to teach me how not to lose so fast. You know, instead of being at 97% expectation you can be at 98% expectation. WTF? That's B.S. I'm interested in the 100%+ techniques. Teach me some winning techniques or get the hell out of here.
No he hears tick tick tick tick while the TITO prints out. I'm sure he has never hit a coin dropper progressive.Quote: mickeycrimmHave you ever been in a bigtime race for a progressive jackpot? What's the sound you hear immediately after the jackpot gets hit? CLANG! CLANG! CLANG! as the coins hit the tray. That's the rest of the players cashing out and hitting the door leaving the place looking like a ghost town.
I am not interested in what most experts or so called experts have to say, other then for entertainment or to see what people are figuring out, or what the casinos now know. I have never read one AP book. I have read Doug's magazine in the past and a few other story's and articles in mag's. I'm way more interested in listening to guys like you, who are in the trenches and get the real scuttlebutt about whats going on. And working with smart guys. Some times You can learn more from a Broke AP then a rich one.Quote: mickeycrimmI don't know. Maybe I have Scoblete confused with John Patrick. Anyways, I have it in for idiots that try to teach me how now to lose so fast. You know, instead of being at 97% expectation you can be at 98% expectation. WTF? That's B.S. I'm interested in the 100%+ techniques. Teach me some winning techniques or get the hell out of here.
Quote: djatcDid you find it hard to stop a play if the progressive hit and made it negative? I ask because you end up with odd amounts playing slots as you are betting and winning funky numbers such as 30c, 90c, and I am very OCD about playing a game til the next dollar amount. Also I hate carrying change around..... and if you had to hop off at a loss, was it easy to do so since you knew the math of it all or did emotions take over a bit and you tried to get "unstuck"?
djatc, it's hard to decipher your entire statement here. But for your first sentence, I'm too hard core to make a negative expectation bet. The rest of your enquiry seems to be about how I feel when I'm losing. In a nutshell it's irritating as hell to get beat. I don't like it one bit. Show me a happy loser and I will show you a loser. But turn around and try to chase because I got beat on a play? No way in hell. Losing is a cost of doing business. It's always a part of the equation, a part of the lifestyle. If getting your ass kicked on a play causes you to tilt off more money then you need to find another occupation.
Quote: mickeycrimmHave you ever been in a bigtime race for a progressive jackpot? What's the sound you hear immediately after the jackpot gets hit? CLANG! CLANG! CLANG! as the coins hit the tray. That's the rest of the players cashing out and hitting the door leaving the place looking like a ghost town.
I was once and didn't know it. I was on a bank of Jackpot Party-added on the 5th reel slots, Biloxi Grand in 2005. I had just sat down after 6 hours of IronButt PGP at the only open seat on nickel machines (It was the WMS jungle game where the pyramids are the bonus symbol; don't know the name). I only play a multiple of the max lines, so was playing for 40c, and played for less than 5 minutes when I got the jackpot party spin. Oh, that's interesting, I thought, I get to pick prizes (out of about 30 presents per screen); got a gold star for my 5th box, and the screen switched to a fresh set of boxes. 2nd box was a gold star, and the screen changed again. 3rd box was a gold star, and the screen changed. It didn't even try that time, first box was a gold star. Well, crud, says I; that went to "collect" fast, and on the screen with the highest value boxes; didn't get any of those.
There was cursing all around me; I was still looking at my screen, trying to figure out what my total was, because it wasn't displaying anything for my win. Guess I needed a big sign that said, "Look up, stupid!", because I finally looked around and there were about 20 people staring at me. "What?" I said, still not getting it. "YOU WON!!" "Geez, she doesn't even know she won!". Somebody pointed up, finally, and about 8 feet above my head the big display screen was going crazy. It was worth a little under $3400; my biggest slot win ever. Yeah, I know, no picture, it never happened, but I have the W2G somewhere in my tax files. Everybody else got up from the machines, but about two dozen people stayed to see them handpay me, for whatever reason.
Quote: beachbumbabsI was once and didn't know it. I was on a bank of Jackpot Party-added on the 5th reel slots, Biloxi Grand in 2005. I had just sat down after 6 hours of IronButt PGP at the only open seat on nickel machines (It was the WMS jungle game where the pyramids are the bonus symbol; don't know the name). I only play a multiple of the max lines, so was playing for 40c, and played for less than 5 minutes when I got the jackpot party spin. Oh, that's interesting, I thought, I get to pick prizes (out of about 30 presents per screen); got a gold star for my 5th box, and the screen switched to a fresh set of boxes. 2nd box was a gold star, and the screen changed again. 3rd box was a gold star, and the screen changed. It didn't even try that time, first box was a gold star. Well, crud, says I; that went to "collect" fast, and on the screen with the highest value boxes; didn't get any of those.
There was cursing all around me; I was still looking at my screen, trying to figure out what my total was, because it wasn't displaying anything for my win. Guess I needed a big sign that said, "Look up, stupid!", because I finally looked around and there were about 20 people staring at me. "What?" I said, still not getting it. "YOU WON!!" "Geez, she doesn't even know she won!". Somebody pointed up, finally, and about 8 feet above my head the big display screen was going crazy. It was worth a little under $3400; my biggest slot win ever. Yeah, I know, no picture, it never happened, but I have the W2G somewhere in my tax files. Everybody else got up from the machines, but about two dozen people stayed to see them handpay me, for whatever reason.
I've never seen a Jackpot Party with a progressive on it. But it looks like you may have unknowingly sat down on a +EV play.
Quote: mickeycrimmdjatc, it's hard to decipher your entire statement here. But for your first sentence, I'm too hard core to make a negative expectation bet. The rest of your enquiry seems to be about how I feel when I'm losing. In a nutshell it's irritating as hell to get beat. I don't like it one bit. Show me a happy loser and I will show you a loser. But turn around and try to chase because I got beat on a play? No way in hell. Losing is a cost of doing business. It's always a part of the equation, a part of the lifestyle. If getting your ass kicked on a play causes you to tilt off more money then you need to find another occupation.
The reason why I asked was it is a leak of mine that I am trying to get rid of, but I hate getting snapped off and having to leave. It's a new years resolution of mine to fix that.
Quote: djatcThe reason why I asked was it is a leak of mine that I am trying to get rid of, but I hate getting snapped off and having to leave. It's a new years resolution of mine to fix that.
djact, I am totally decicated to not ever making a negative expection bet. I can't explain to you how I developed this concept. I think it takes hard core will. I think it takes jumping off of a freight train, in the middle of the night, in some lonely town, cold, hungry, tired, in bad need of a shower and a shave, and nothing but a town full of strangers to look forward too. That was my life, brother. I think that makes me what I am.
Quote: tournamentkingSorry for asking, but I think you said you play in Montana? Montana? I read lots of your stories and they all have to do with years ago in Nevada. That's where the majority of plays were and are today. Who goes to MONTANA in the winter to find plays, and why hasn't anyone else ever found such opportunity up there? Do they have anything higher than quarters? Seems like such a waste of time and life for talent.
Er...what's wrong with working an emerging market, where the game protection might not be as universal and the machines fit your chosen plays? Especially when one of mickey's common themes is to be in front of the play; why chase the Vegas opportunities in a crowd and with the most wised-up protection in the US, when if you can find an edge in a newer, smaller market, you can work it without other people burning your play? If the play involves staying under the radar by definition, and there's enough of a play to support him, why NOT Montana?
Quote: tournamentkingSorry for asking, but I think you said you play in Montana? Montana? I read lots of your stories and they all have to do with years ago in Nevada. That's where the majority of plays were and are today. Who goes to MONTANA in the winter to find plays, and why hasn't anyone else ever found such opportunity up there? Do they have anything higher than quarters? Seems like such a waste of time and life for talent.
TK, this past summer I took a trip to eastern Washington. It was the first time I had been out of Montana since late 2007. How I got here and why I continue to stay will all be explained in the Wendover story, if I ever get it finished. TK, I don't play "follow the leader." I blaze my own trail. I'm a pioneer. I'm the pioneer of the Montana plays. They are plays that are not known in the conventional machine pro world. I found them. I developed them. I'll be the one who exploits them.
I will write about my current plays on WoV right after Axel writes about all of his current plays. Which means it ain't ever gonna happen, TK. However, if Axel ever decides to take a fishing trip to Montana, out of professional courtesy I will give him a short clinic to save him the time of figuring it out on his own, which he would have no problem doing anyway, but I would just save him some time.
Before I blocked Rob Singers PM's to me I challenged him to come to Montana, follow me around, and watch me book a win every day. I wasn't going to explain the plays to him. I was just gonna let him watch me put money in machines, play for a short period of time, and cash out more money than I put into them. And if he saw me have a losing day I would hand him $1000. That's just how strong I am at what I do, TK. I don't even have losing days. Or I should say that I don't have more than a few losing days per year.
The challenge is not open to anyone else. I know that Rob is so stupid that he can't figure out what I'm doing. His response to me was that he was in Montana with that RV in the summer of 2012. He knows I've been holed up here since 2007. I've told him over and over again what I do for a living. And he didn't even take a look at one machine while he was here. How stupid is that?
And, TK, Montana wouldn't work out for a progressive slot AP like you either. Max jackpot here is $800 by state law. How in the hell can a guy make a living in a place like that? That's for me to know and you to find out.
Dicenor33 You may think APs are good story tellers but if the story is bs the real APs can tell.It's very hard to talk the talk if you haven't walked the walk.Quote: Dicenor33It's time to quit my job and start playing progressives. What a coincidence, AP players are such good story tellers.
What happened, and why did you leave your Nevada ATM behind?
Quote: tournamentkingNot sure, that's why I asked. It just seems to me that he paints a picture of a wise and super successful ap throughout Nevada from yesteryear. If you accomplished that, would playing for pennies today in the tundra mean anything to you?
It's not the denom. It's the amount of the bet.
Quote: tournamentkingWhat happened, and why did you leave your Nevada ATM behind?
Because I have a Montana ATM. It's not as good as the Nevada ATM. But it's pretty good. And I love living in Montana. Big Sky country. Meet me in Montana.
Quote: HunterhillHey Mickey did you ever know a guy named Frank or Frankie from the Reno area.He was a bonus slot player and credit hustler.He also was a dealer and might have worked for Tuna Lund.
I know a few Frankies. I'm thinking about your question and trying to discern which Frank you are talking about. If its Frank that worked for Tom Marcot then I know exactly who you are talking about. Marcot was the shylow at Lake Tahoe. He was a good guy, but he had everyone at Lake Tahoe in hock, except me. I told him, once, that there was no way in hell I would ever ask him for a loan. Frank was Tom's bill collector.
Frank wound up as a pit boss at the El Dorado in Reno. I stopped off in the game and Frankie told the table "Mickey is a gambling legend." I love Franky. But I grabbed my hat.
Quote: tournamentkingSo there's a secret handshake involved. OK. But you play at low stakes and there are many many more of those opportunities around Nevada. Just ask Axel. You also seem to be a fan of Dancer. He finds and plays high stakes all the time, and if you say you win every time out, why wouldn't $1800 be better than $180/session? What happened, and why did you leave your Nevada ATM behind?
TK, I win everyday in my present location. I never said I won everyday in Nevada. Thanks for the concern, TK, but I don't need any advice on gambling or how I live my life from you.
I had to strategize it. Say I've got pocket 8's, and the flop comes Ace-Ace-X. Someone in early positions bets out. I've got to decide if that player has an Ace in their hand....and if there kicker is strong. If an Ace comes off on the turn or the river I would have Aces full of 8's and they would have four Aces. I was getting major money odds to call in that situation.
