Minimum wage
I agree on both counts.Quote: terapinedI have to agree, that's why I spend Christmas in Vegas, the whole town works , everything is open. I love it.
On the flip side, because everybody is working, I tend to over tip on Christmas.
Wow, that's pretty scary, huh? ;)
lol
That's why you see so many commercials. It's really profitable for the schools. Tuition is usually whatever they can get you a loan for. Many of the "teachers" in tech schools are people who were not skilled enough to make a living in the field they are now teaching.
And most of these same skills are available on a legitimate college campus. But with the tech school lobby in DC, do not expect anything to change.
Quote: Buzzard90 % of the student loans in default are tech school students. Those students are less than 10% of the students with loans.
That's why you see so many commercials. It's really profitable for the schools. Tuition is usually whatever they can get you a loan for. Many of the "teachers" in tech schools are people who were not skilled enough to make a living in the field they are now teaching.
I can say this much, I went on a job interview for one of the larger tech school chains in recruitment. HUGE call center, among the biggest I have ever seen and very high-pressure on reps to call everyone and anyone who ever gave a direct response call to those commercials during "Gomer Pyle USMC."
Nothing wrong with running a business, but makes you think.
That why I spent last year in culinary arts with Melanie at CMU. CMU also has a CNA program, telephone lineman , auto mechanics, etc.
Tech schools are a business feeding of the taxpayer and the poor trying to better themselves.
Quote: BuzzardI have an adult daughter who is on SSI due to being Schitzo-effective. She wants to return to working. She was allexcited one day because a counselor was very interested in her as a student. Calling her hourly.
That why I spent last year in culinary arts with Melanie at CMU. CMU also has a CNA program, telephone lineman , auto mechanics, etc.
Tech schools are a business feeding of the taxpayer and the poor trying to better themselves.
Excellent work Buzz!
Josie almost cut chef's thumb one day. After that anytime he approached her work station he said " Josie, put down the knife "
Most amazing part of class was college students, fresh out of high school, and could not break down a recipe for 12 to one for 4.
Not talking cups or pints, but 15 oz of flour. WTF ?
She said the daughter is pulling in $50K while in nursing school and wondered with me if she will take the pay cut and do nursing at graduation.
So, tell me again how once you get a job flipping burgers that is all you can ever be and because of this we need to raise the minimum wage?
It might interest you to know that that is the minimum wage (in USA dollars) for a burger flipper in Australia.Quote: Beethoven9th
The idiot organizers are demanding $15/hr for fast food workers. Is flipping burgers really worth $15/hr??? I hope fast food restaurants make everything automated and fire these people.
Then again, if that happened, they'd probably start demanding $15/hr for staying at home.
Quote: FleaStiffIt might interest you to know that that is the minimum wage (in USA dollars) for a burger flipper in Australia.
Good, then they can move there!
IF they can get by Immigration.Quote: Beethoven9thGood, then they can move there!
Quote: FleaStiffIt might interest you to know that that is the minimum wage (in USA dollars) for a burger flipper in Australia.
Apples and oranges, it is about 40% more expensive to live in Australia before you even consider taxes/VAT.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Australia&country2=United+States
Quote: AZDuffmanWoman sat at my table last night and asked if I dealt "for real." I gave the usual answer that it was just a side hustle. Then she told me her daughter was working at the local casino as a bartender. Seems she started at a local restaurant as a hostess at age 16 and worked her way up to bar back, then bartender. Later she got on at the casino and is now at the bar in the steakhouse.
She said the daughter is pulling in $50K while in nursing school and wondered with me if she will take the pay cut and do nursing at graduation.
Yeah if she is making that much now, she really shouldn't have went to nursing school. My g/f constantly regrets it. In St. Louis, it would probably take her another 5 years to make $50k being a nurse, and that's mainly thanks to inflation. It also took her 90 minutes to get to work this morning thanks to the snow. Most people think nurses make good money. In the markets I have seen, they don't. And nurses' aides in Missouri make barely more than fast-food workers, but you don't have to clean up a shit-covered bed at McDonald's either.
Quote: tringlomane...but you don't have to clean up a shit-covered bed at McDonald's either.
Gee thanks, I was about to grab a bite to eat. lol...
Quote: tringlomaneYeah if she is making that much now, she really shouldn't have went to nursing school. My g/f constantly regrets it. In St. Louis, it would probably take her another 5 years to make $50k being a nurse, and that's mainly thanks to inflation. It also took her 90 minutes to get to work this morning thanks to the snow. Most people think nurses make good money. In the markets I have seen, they don't. And nurses' aides in Missouri make barely more than fast-food workers, but you don't have to clean up a shit-covered bed at McDonald's either.
I have heard the nurse boom is over but I'd still fate one because I doubt they will ever be worried where there next meal is coming from.
10 years ago nurses were in short supply to thepoint where they were shipped infrom countries like the dominican republic and given free housing by hospitals.
14 years ago here in northern Ca, during the dotcom height, fsst food places were paying 10.hr because the demand for workers exceeded the supply.
Now there is a glut of people willing to work those jobs, and the demand for jobs exceed the supply.
But its not just low paying jobs. Over the last 10 years in this economy professionals like accountants, have been let go and replaced by one of the hundreds of applicants happy to take30 or 40 percent of the rate that the person let go was getting.
And when that person gets a job...its for less than they made...because of supply/demand.
If we are willing to say its fine for mcdonalds workers in1999 to get a 3 dollar increase in pay because of supply and demand. Well then we cant complain when and accountant gets let go, and another accountant gets hired for25k less per year.
what goes up...often eventually comes down
the market dictates wages. The market dictates prices in your retail stores.
Quote: BuzzardWhat market forces dictate the pay scale for government bureaucracies ?
S**t just got real!
Quote: BuzzardWhat market forces dictate the pay scale for government bureaucracies ?
As you know Buzz that is of course the problem. Bureaucrats/politicians are negotiating with powerfull unions and not spending their own money. It has been a receipe for disaster for governments at all levels.
The problem of course is has reached a critical level and we might say that market forces are now acting even on the government employees. But at nowhere near the speed that it happens in the private sector or the speed it needed to act to prevent the city bankruptcies that are now becoming prevelent.
Used to buy American in 60's and 70's when America actually made some things. Sam Walton at one time had a sweet deal for any products made in America. Problem was the customers didn't give a shit !
Quote: BuzzardGovernment is definitely the exception that proves the rule. Don't get me wrong . I am a union man in most cases. Labor is always paid less than it is worth. Has to be, otherwise why hire someone ?
Used to buy American in 60's and 70's when America actually made some things. Sam Walton at one time had a sweet deal for any products made in America. Problem was the customers didn't give a shit !
govt beurocracies and unions hold wages up to rates above markets.
Look at the postal workers. The post office is losing billions a year. No pay cuts. People are allowed to retire and not replaced, rather than cutting thousands from their payroll like IBM, yahoo, intel has all done in order to survive and compete.
The govt can print money to prop up the unrealistic payrolls in the post office. And places like Hostess can go outof business after years of pay and benefit increases
and at the last minute the nion is ready to make concessions.......to late. The wages and benefits almost bankrupted the auto industry. Unions finally made consessions and govt helped bail out.
If mcdonalds workers were unionized....in the late 1990's the nion would gladly accept the increase on hourly wages due to the supply/demand isssue in the face of the dotcom ferver. But when things diesd down..do u think the union would accept a decrease without a strike and crippling the business?
Its an unnatural force ,,,unnaturally holding wages and benefits higher than the market bares.
You might want to address that question to the various defendants in Bell, CA who were voting themselves stupendous salaries in a blue collar city where few voted.Quote: BuzzardWhat market forces dictate the pay scale for government bureaucracies ?
Quote: LarryIts an unnatural force ,,,unnaturally holding wages and benefits higher than the market bears
In the 50s and 60s when shipping was expensive while local fuel was cheap that was true. The US did not have cheap labor abroad to tie into. Certainly there was no way to effectively manage things around the world (no internet, no computer, no satellites).
Now, it's as global as pretty much can be. Legal firms and accounting firms farm out labor to offshore facilities where work can be done at 1/5th the price. Manufacturing has learned to incorporate components in overseas facilities and get items to its onshore plants just in time to incorporate it into product. Even at fast food places, the person taking your order may not be in your restaurant. They may be overseas, getting paid $1/hour to take your order, rather than 7 times as much 30 feet away from you. Should we just state, "the market bears a wage of $1/hour for that job" and offer a job at $1/hour, or do we just accept farming out that job at $1/hour. Or should we put a law in place that states that a company providing a service to an American must pay that person providing the service the US minimum wage.
And if things get too expensive and your corporation makes a mistake, you can just declare bankruptcy, restructure, and take away pensions and other items that people banked on in good faith via collective bargaining agreements that were and are valid.
Pretty soon, advocates of the free market will just say "let the market bear" and minimum wage will be zero. Then you'll have an Ebenezer Scrooge sitting at every corner quoting "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" You quote hiring McDonalds workers at $10+ an hour during the boom times in one small area of the country like the fast food industry is going to make some kind of great comeback.
Like it or not, unions for a long time were good, no great, for America in the 20th century. They created the middle class and the standard of living that most of us enjoy. Unfortunately, the forces of globalization and competition did them in. When other areas of the world showed that they could do what America could do for better and cheaper, forces to bring down costs allowed company by company to do away with their unions or go broke.
You want Americans who work full time to survive on $7.25 an hour? They do. And they have food stamps. And they have welfare. Or they work under the table for cash and collect the benefits anyway. Raise the minimum wage to a level where at least they are no longer relying on government handouts and shift the money saved on Food Stamps to lower taxes for corporations.
Quote: boymimboRaise the minimum wage to a level where at least they are no longer relying on government handouts
All right, well instead of gambling at Fallsview next time, you can give your money to minimum wage workers instead. In other words, if you want them to get paid more, then YOU pay for it.
Wow FPDW Hrly rate goes up with inflation I guess. When I started its was $6 an hr, if you were lucky.Quote: djatcLet's hope nobody tells the minimum wage workers about AP and playing FPDW for $9/hr.....
Quote: boymimbo
And if things get too expensive and your corporation makes a mistake, you can just declare bankruptcy, restructure, and take away pensions and other items that people banked on in good faith via collective bargaining agreements that were and are valid.
You want Americans who work full time to survive on $7.25 an hour? They do. And they have food stamps. And they have welfare. Or they work under the table for cash and collect the benefits anyway. Raise the minimum wage to a level where at least they are no longer relying on government handouts and shift the money saved on Food Stamps to lower taxes for corporations.
You can no longer simply declare bankruptcy to tear up a union contract in the USA. After this was done in the 1980s, most famously at Continental Airlines, Congress changed the law. In any case if you try you run the risk of being fired if you are management and a trustee appointed with eventual dilluted ownership if you are the stockholders. A big risk to all.
I grew up hearing the "NO CONCESSIONS" mantra from union relatives. Well, what happens when a union says that is eventually they say, "FINE, NO JOBS!" Investors will not put money into a pit that will not return more money back. This happened at Hostess, now the union workers have no jobs, the union no dues, but the public still has Twinkees under new and more efficient ownership.
Times and markets change. Any person who has worked independently from courrier delivery to computer consultant has experienced this. You get pai what the market dictates. The market does not dictate $15 an hour for fast food workers.
And yet again, we should not be saying "minimum wage needs to be high enough to make work attractive than government benefits." We need to realize work for able-bodied people, which is most people, is a requirement and not an option and cut the benefits to those people.
EDIT: Ooopsie, raising the minimum wage encourages people to quit high school, ensuring lower lifetime earnings!
Quote: boymimboIn the 50s and 60s when shipping was expensive while local fuel was cheap that was true. The US did not have cheap labor abroad to tie into. Certainly there was no way to effectively manage things around the world (no internet, no computer, no satellites).
Now, it's as global as pretty much can be. Legal firms and accounting firms farm out labor to offshore facilities where work can be done at 1/5th the price. Manufacturing has learned to incorporate components in overseas facilities and get items to its onshore plants just in time to incorporate it into product. Even at fast food places, the person taking your order may not be in your restaurant. They may be overseas, getting paid $1/hour to take your order, rather than 7 times as much 30 feet away from you. Should we just state, "the market bears a wage of $1/hour for that job" and offer a job at $1/hour, or do we just accept farming out that job at $1/hour. Or should we put a law in place that states that a company providing a service to an American must pay that person providing the service the US minimum wage.
And if things get too expensive and your corporation makes a mistake, you can just declare bankruptcy, restructure, and take away pensions and other items that people banked on in good faith via collective bargaining agreements that were and are valid.
Pretty soon, advocates of the free market will just say "let the market bear" and minimum wage will be zero. Then you'll have an Ebenezer Scrooge sitting at every corner quoting "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" You quote hiring McDonalds workers at $10+ an hour during the boom times in one small area of the country like the fast food industry is going to make some kind of great comeback.
Like it or not, unions for a long time were good, no great, for America in the 20th century. They created the middle class and the standard of living that most of us enjoy. Unfortunately, the forces of globalization and competition did them in. When other areas of the world showed that they could do what America could do for better and cheaper, forces to bring down costs allowed company by company to do away with their unions or go broke.
You want Americans who work full time to survive on $7.25 an hour? They do. And they have food stamps. And they have welfare. Or they work under the table for cash and collect the benefits anyway. Raise the minimum wage to a level where at least they are no longer relying on government handouts and shift the money saved on Food Stamps to lower taxes for corporations.
In the countries that you mentioned paying 1 dollar an hour, the defentition of poverty is different. People there can live off of a dollar an hour in THAT countries defeniton of poverty. In our country a person on welfare can have a 3 room apt, cable TV, and food stamps enough to become obese with. The poor of most other countriess would think this is middle or upper class. So of course we would never go to 1 dollar an hour because our market wouldnt dictate that. But in other countries where 2 dollars can buy a weeks worth of rice, and rice and water is enough to live on...well then it can be said that they " are making a living" as per their countries standards.
As far as unions I agree they were very helpful at one time when working conditions were horrible. Now there are state and federal regulations covering workers. In california employers are required to give 2 paid 15 minute breaks in an 8 hour day and an unpaid lunch(with extra breaks dictated as xtra hours are worked). They regular how many days in a row you work a week before getting overtime pay, how many hours per week before getting overtine. OSHA federally governs working conditions regarding safety. Every state has Wage and Hour depts of state govt that mediates employee concerns.
So other than offer to call off threatening strikes, in exchange for higher raises and benefits than the market will bear...the unions usefullness have been replaced by govt regulations.
+1Quote: LarrySIn our country a person on welfare can have a 3 room apt, cable TV, and food stamps enough to become obese with.
So true. How bad can a country be when the poor people are FAT?
+1Quote: AZDuffman
Exactly. Kids and teenagers will have no incentive to go to school anymore. Also, taxpayers will have no reason to pay for it.
Quote: LarryS
Look at the postal workers. The post office is losing billions a year. No pay cuts. .
Have you noticed that the postal workers haven't gone "postal" for quite some time.....what the hell is going over there? Spiking the coffee with Lithium?
Quote: treetopbuddyHave you noticed that the postal workers haven't gone "postal" for quite some time.....what the hell is going over there? Spiking the coffee with Lithium?
if i had a job in failing business, but knew I was safe cause my boss could leagally print money to pay me each week...without layoffs or pay reductions.....i would be cool
from the PO were stealing. You can kill somebody
and they'll keep you. Weigh 400 pounds and miss
a day a week, you're good with them.
Quote: LarrySIn the countries that you mentioned paying 1 dollar an hour, the defentition of poverty is different. People there can live off of a dollar an hour in THAT countries defeniton of poverty. In our country a person on welfare can have a 3 room apt, cable TV, and food stamps enough to become obese with. The poor of most other countriess would think this is middle or upper class. So of course we would never go to 1 dollar an hour because our market wouldnt dictate that. But in other countries where 2 dollars can buy a weeks worth of rice, and rice and water is enough to live on...well then it can be said that they " are making a living" as per their countries standards.
$1/ hr is $1/hr. WMT pays sweat shops in 3rd world countries that wage so that you can buy your shirt for $5 (or less). Apple pays sweat shops in 3rd world countries to make its I-Phones rather than American workers. That's what the market *is* now. American workers are available to do the work at minimum wage whatever that would be. There used to be protectionist laws that kept manufacturing in America. Much of that was eroded with NAFTA and now various trade agreement with various countries which results in giant trade deficits and that US greenback being owned essentially by other countries.
All of which is fine. You can argue that the USA is raising the standards of those countries!
However the standard of living is much higher here than in those countries. People in poverty here are living in 3 room apts, not shanty homes. they have the opportunity to eat and get obese from food stamps, they have tv and cell phones and cable.
Therefore based on the costs of these "neccessities", based on the "need" for cable and enough food to get fat off of.....no one would work for 1 dollar/hr. Supply and demand would kick in. There wouldnt be a supply of people willing to work at that wage.
(But somehow, I don't think libs will buy their OWN argument in this case)
Do they also drive Cadillac cars?Quote: LarrySHowever the standard of living is much higher here than in those countries. People in poverty here are living in 3 room apts, not shanty homes. they have the opportunity to eat and get obese from food stamps, they have tv and cell phones and cable.
Quote: boymimbo$1/ hr is $1/hr. WMT pays sweat shops in 3rd world countries that wage so that you can buy your shirt for $5 (or less). Apple pays sweat shops in 3rd world countries to make its I-Phones rather than American workers. That's what the market *is* now. American workers are available to do the work at minimum wage whatever that would be. There used to be protectionist laws that kept manufacturing in America. Much of that was eroded with NAFTA and now various trade agreement with various countries which results in giant trade deficits and that US greenback being owned essentially by other countries.
All of which is fine. You can argue that the USA is raising the standards of those countries!
I hate to break this news to you, but the USA was running a trade deficit long before NAFTA was ever thought of. The international use of the dollar alone guarantees that we in fact must do this. It was an intentional exchange. We run a trade deficit but at the same time we get to control the world financial system. It was set in place in 1945.
Quote: AZDuffmanI hate to break this news to you, but the USA was running a trade deficit long before NAFTA was ever thought of. The international use of the dollar alone guarantees that we in fact must do this. It was an intentional exchange. We run a trade deficit but at the same time we get to control the world financial system. It was set in place in 1945.
The US had a trade surplus up until 1975.
Quote: LarrySyou argue that withoit the minimum wage people would be making a dollar ans hour here.
However the standard of living is much higher here than in those countries. People in poverty here are living in 3 room apts, not shanty homes. they have the opportunity to eat and get obese from food stamps, they have tv and cell phones and cable.
Therefore based on the costs of these "neccessities", based on the "need" for cable and enough food to get fat off of.....no one would work for 1 dollar/hr. Supply and demand would kick in. There wouldnt be a supply of people willing to work at that wage.
I'm arguing that if market forces were the only thing to bear and that there was no minimum wage, perhaps employers would start paying less. When the minimum wage went from $5 to $7 a few years ago plenty of businesses complained about that. There was the same argument: "let the free market reign". Full time employees instead of making $10K/year now made $14K/year. Remember that 80% of those who are low income and collecting food stamps are doing so honestly, by all estimates. Maybe by making that extra $4K they wouldn't have to rely on food banks. Maybe my making that extra $4K they could buy better food or not work three jobs to pay for basic housing. The conservative argument that everyone making minimum wage are fat and lazy bums, which is simply not true.
We see what happens when the free market reigns -- it already does. Ship all employment to places where you can pay less for the same job, to the detriment of the American people. Geico has a huge call center in Buffalo and it's only a matter of time before they find enough Indians that sounds English enough to transfer the call center overseas. That's been shifting for years. Airlines ship the majority of their traffic overseas and pays the call center employees $2/hour and leave a few employees in the United States for complex problem solving or its most elite members. These all could be American jobs paying minimum wage, perfect for students and young people, who have by far the highest unemployment in the land.
Or big software ships its development and support overseas and pays them $9/hour vs $60/hour, and a bunch of IT folk lose their jobs. Outsourcing was a huge problem.
Let capitalism reign.
Quote: boymimboI'm arguing that if market forces were the only thing to bear and that there was no minimum wage, perhaps employers would start paying less. When the minimum wage went from $5 to $7 a few years ago plenty of businesses complained about that. There was the same argument: "let the free market reign". Full time employees instead of making $10K/year now made $14K/year. Remember that 80% of those who are low income and collecting food stamps are doing so honestly, by all estimates. Maybe by making that extra $4K they wouldn't have to rely on food banks. Maybe my making that extra $4K they could buy better food or not work three jobs to pay for basic housing. The conservative argument that everyone making minimum wage are fat and lazy bums, which is simply not true.
We see what happens when the free market reigns -- it already does. Ship all employment to places where you can pay less for the same job, to the detriment of the American people. Geico has a huge call center in Buffalo and it's only a matter of time before they find enough Indians that sounds English enough to transfer the call center overseas. That's been shifting for years. Airlines ship the majority of their traffic overseas and pays the call center employees $2/hour and leave a few employees in the United States for complex problem solving or its most elite members. These all could be American jobs paying minimum wage, perfect for students and young people, who have by far the highest unemployment in the land.
Or big software ships its development and support overseas and pays them $9/hour vs $60/hour, and a bunch of IT folk lose their jobs. Outsourcing was a huge problem.
Let capitalism reign.
If you don't like the outsourcing then don't buy on price buy your products and services on the basis of American content. If everyone did that the problem would go away. The big bad companies only respond to the constant demand for cheaper services and products from the consumer. Any company that doesn't follow the trend is soon gone because it's prices become non-competitive.
The free market is not the companies in charge it is the consumer in charge boymimbo. Quit looking for someone else to blame for the changes to the world and the erosion of the standard of living in America. We are only getting what we asking for through the votes we make every day with our wallets.
The classic example is the auto industry. The consumer decided that they wanted robot manufactured cars from Asia because they were cheaper and somewhat more reliable. The US auto industry was gutted. It would have changed and survived much better but the unions were too busy slowing the change and protecting jobs. Was that the companies fault? No the American consumer forced that change when they flocked to the Asian manufacturers. Market forces at work driven by the CONSUMER not the companies.
Quote: kenarmanIf you don't like the outsourcing then don't buy on price buy your products and services on the basis of American content. If everyone did that the problem would go away.
+1
