Wiz Lawyers Up
Quote: onenickelmiracleHow much would an appeal cost? Is there a legal defense fund or could you make one?
I estimate it would cost another $3,000. Considering I raised about $150 for the Scale the Strat fundraiser, I don't think I'd come very close to three grand.
I like burning money, myself. It can be fun. But if you already did three grand, I can imagine you have had your fix for at least a couple of weeks.
I just got confirmation yesterday that I am getting my money back I invested on tungsten cubes. It was more than 3 grand. I thought that money might not ever come back but it did.
Maybe if you could get a bounty from someone that if you forced the information to be provided they would cough up the dough.
I think a bounty might make the whole hopelessness of the situation change.
IE: someone who might be very pessimistic about the process might offer up a $10,000 bounty contingent on someone prevailing. IE: all risk no reward to make a statement about our corrupt system here.
A bounty would make it worthwhile to do a news story possibly.
They would have a safe bet, and you could have a carrot to invest another 3 with an angle to really try to get it to go somehow.
Quote: onenickelmiracleHow much would an appeal cost? Is there a legal defense fund or could you make one?
As interesting as this would be to all of us, I'm not sure it would make any difference at all to your average ploppie who plays slots. I just don't think they care. Otherwise, they would at least be playing some VP, where the payback is right on the front of the machine for anyone who cares to see it to see it. Right now, there are often different paytables on VP for the same game right next to each other. And once again, most people don't care.
Edit: 117AM EST
True. The average blackjack player doesn't care about 6:5 versus 3:2, he cares about his next free drink and how revealing the dealer's uniform is. I'm sure the slot players don't care much about adequate disclosure of information other than perhaps the cocktail waitresses schedule.Quote: JohnnyQAs interesting as this would be to all of us, I'm not sure it would make any difference at all to your average ploppie who plays slots.
Quote: FleaStiffTrue. The average blackjack player doesn't care about 6:5 versus 3:2, he cares about his next free drink and how revealing the dealer's uniform is. I'm sure the slot players don't care much about adequate disclosure of information other than perhaps the cocktail waitresses schedule.
Which, if you think about it, is why the Casino can offer some decent games. We all know they need to make money to stay in business, I just prefer they make that money from someone besides me (as much as possible). I know they make some money from me. But I believe I am getting more in value from Comps than I am losing. Sure, that's subjective.
I also care about how revealing the cocktail waitresses uniform is.
Heck! I made half that amount just trading Tesla Motors options this morning.Quote: WizardI estimate it would cost another $3,000. Considering I raised about $150 for the Scale the Strat fundraiser, I don't think I'd come very close to three grand.
Quote: Ahigh
I like burning money, myself. It can be fun./q]
It can also be illegal.
Book em, Danno"What, me worry?"
Quote: Ahigh
...
I just got confirmation yesterday that I am getting my money back I invested on tungsten cubes. It was more than 3 grand. I thought that money might not ever come back but it did.
That is very generous of you to offer that to the Wizard's legal fund.
The Judge in this video acted in a manner that was detestable. For him to offer absolutely no rationale whatsoever for his decision was downright rude and unacceptable. Now Judges do lots and lots of things that irritate attorneys. And vice-versa. But they get a salary from the people they serve, and they are paid to justify their decisions. Utterly disgraceful display in this instance, and it calls into direct question the Judge's competency and worse, his credibility as an impartial jurist.
Its a one industry state.Quote: midwestgbas an impartial jurist.
Quote: FleaStiffTrue. The average blackjack player doesn't care about 6:5 versus 3:2, he cares about his next free drink and how revealing the dealer's uniform is. I'm sure the slot players don't care much about adequate disclosure of information other than perhaps the cocktail waitresses schedule.
Agreed. That's why tribal casinos thrive as well. Horrible pay back percentages. Constant complaints about being "too tight". But people continue to play and play and play...
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Agreed. That's why tribal casinos thrive as well. Horrible pay back percentages. Constant complaints about being "too tight". But people continue to play and play and play...
ZCore13
Yelp reviews of casinos are usually from people who complain the slots are tight, and they never get paid. Pretty sure most of them still go to the same place, and complain some more about not hitting any jackpots.
Quote: JohnnyQAs interesting as this would be to all of us, I'm not sure it would make any difference at all to your average ploppie who plays slots. I just don't think they care. Otherwise, they would at least be playing some VP, where the payback is right on the front of the machine for anyone who cares to see it to see it. Right now, there are often different paytables on VP for the same game right next to each other. And once again, most people don't care.
You are absolutely correct. I don't think it's that they don't care, it's they know it's hopeless. They know they can't beat the system, but they might be able to beat an 85% slot game for one day. It is too little too late, plus once the appeal was set, then Sheldon Adelson's charitable trust for himself would fight back with millions of dollars raising the stakes to an unwinnable level. I thought there would be a show of support from the slotters, but there wasn't. $100 counting me, with the deadline fast approaching means it's over. There might not even be a need for an appeal if precedent hasn't been set and another fight can be waged. If not in LV, somewhere else.
I did send a PM to TheYoungTurks on YT, so maybe this will get some attention. They don't care about advertisers, but only ideas, so who knows.
Casinos sell "The Buzz", the atmosphere, the hope ... they don't sell the straight dope.Quote: Zcore13That's why tribal casinos thrive as well. Horrible pay back percentages. Constant complaints about being "too tight". But people continue to play and play and play...
Casinos offer a mixture of games and returns and want to avoid "cream skimmers" who might play only the "best" games and then leave for a different casino's better offerings.
The trouble is that I doubt anyone really makes decisions based on exact payout information, only on impressions and rumors.
I applaud the Wiz and his attorney for taking the initiative, and
investing their time and money.
IF the Wiz thought it was worthwhile to pursue an appeal, I
would back him with a small financial stake.
Quote: SONBP2First, thanks to many of the positive comments on our efforts against Gaming. Second, I really appreciate that Mike allowed me to work on this case and represent him in this matter. Thirdly, I want to address a few things below concerning the writ and the hearing.
(1) Specifically the Writ was filed after we requested the information under the Nevada Open Information Act, which is Nevada's version of the Freedom of Information Act.
(2) Virtually anyone can file a Writ, so long as they have standing to demand some type of action from someone else. We satisfied this requirement as Mike was a resident of Las Vegas.
(3) In our opposition to Gaming's motion to dismiss, which was denied, we provided exhaustive information concerning the wide spread use in other jurisdictions of specific slot payback percentage information. One thing that was raised by FleaStiff was the notification requirement raised by Gaming. There were two issues with this: (a) to properly serve all Nevada casinos, it would have cost several thousand dollars; and (b) the statute only requires notice to a non-party if the court determines that the Petitioner is entitled to the information, but information sought was confidential. Our primary argument was that the information sought was not confidential, therefore no notice was required. If the court determined that the information sought was confidential, then we would gladly notify the casinos and give them the opportunity to dispute our request. It was frustrating that the Judge did not make any ruling on this specific issue. He denied our request, but there was nothing in the final Order that stated the information sought was confidential.
(4) In our additional briefing, we used several reports from Gaming's website clearly showing their use of slot payback percentage information by region and other specific areas in Las Vegas. Further we provided pictures of casinos advertising and marketing their slot payback percentage. The Judge however, did not make any statements concerning this evidence. Again frustrating.
(5) If you watch the video, or maybe it was in the first hearing on the motion to dismiss, I specifically stated we exhausted all avenues with Gaming before petitioning the court. Then the Judge, asked during my argument whether we exhausted all avenues with Gaming. As you can see in the video I paused for several seconds. I was thinking in my head, REALLY? Have I not repeated this several times already and second Gaming never even raised this as an issue. I believe Gaming would have raised this as an issue immediately by stating we failed to request a hearing or file a proper appeal, but Gaming never challenged the process we took.
(6) Finally, Mike has the opportunity to appeal this decision to the Supreme witin 30 days of entry of the final order, which is coming up very quickly. However, it is difficult, if not impossible, to convince a client to spend his time and money when the Court gave us so little feedback as to our position. In a separate case I am taking to the Supreme Court, the judge specifically stated at the end of the hearing, "If there was a case that needed guidance from a higher authority, I believe it may be this case, but based on the current law and our Supreme Court's previous rulings at this time I must rule against the Petitioner." That gave my client enough informationt to decide an appeal was worth his time and efforts. Unfortunately, we did not get that type of feedback in this matter.
Again, thanks for the comments, I am sure some criticism is always warranted, but I do believe we provided the court with sufficient information to make a ruling in our favor.
This is exactly why only corporate clients and ACLU type actions make it to the US SUPREME COURT - lack of money or a law firm/attorney financially able to work for free. Few people realize this. Keep on fighting the good fight my fellow counselor.
Quote: JohnnyQIF the Wiz thought it was worthwhile to pursue an appeal, I would back him with a small financial stake.
Today marks 30 days since the trial. Maybe since it is a Saturday, I would have until Monday. How about this, if I get $3,000 in pledges by 11:59 PM Sunday I'll file the appeal.
However, I think it would be a wasted cause. At one point the District Attorney called Brandon and said "Do you understand who you're dealing with?"
Would that be just a collegial call or is there a chance that some other legal action might be involved?Quote: WizardAt one point the District Attorney called Brandon and said "Do you understand who you're dealing with?"
Quote: WizardToday marks 30 days since the trial. Maybe since it is a Saturday, I would have until Monday. How about this, if I get $3,000 in pledges by 11:59 PM Sunday I'll file the appeal.
However, I think it would be a wasted cause. At one point the District Attorney called Brandon and said "Do you understand who you're dealing with?"
Technically, we would have 30 days from the entry of the Order denying our request. Interestingly, while the Order has been signed it has not been filed. So currently we do have some time to file the appeal. I thought the Order was filed a couple weeks after the hearing, I will double check on Monday to see the status of the filing. It is the responsibility of the prevailing party to make sure the Order is filed.
Quote: WizardToday marks 30 days since the trial. Maybe since it is a Saturday, I would have until Monday. How about this, if I get $3,000 in pledges by 11:59 PM Sunday I'll file the appeal.
Where do we make our pledge?
It would be nice if he explained exactly HOW he felt that your petition was deficient.
Perhaps your attorney could file a motion requesting that the judge clarify, for the record, the specific basis for his decision.
Heck, if you appeal the case the appellate court likely won't hear it de novo, they'd want to determine whether the trial judge committed an error: without him articulating the basis for his decision in the record, such informed review is impossible.
But then again, you ARE in Nevada ...
You didn't seriously think your courts would give you a fair shake on this matter, did you?
They, too, offer a negative expectation game against the casinos.
Quote: MrV
You didn't seriously think your courts would give you a fair shake on this matter, did you?
I think the Wiz should pick and choose his battles where there is a better chance of success.
But again, I think it was a worthwhile effort to see where round 1 would end up.
Quote: JohnnyQBut again, I think it was a worthwhile effort to see where round 1 would end up.
I agree.
But somehow I doubt that The Wiz is truly surprised with the outcome.
Then again, when it is "your case," it can be tough to think objectively about it.
Quote: JohnnyQI think the Wiz should pick and choose his battles where there is a better chance of success. But again, I think it was a worthwhile effort to see where round 1 would end up.
I agree. I don't regret what I did, but don't feel like going through it again. A few people have offered to make donations, but I doubt I'll get anywhere near the 3K. Remember, I collected only about $150 for my Scale the Strat charity fund raiser. Not to sound ungrateful to those who donated to that, but am just drawing a comparison for the sake of reality. Nevertheless, if you wish to officially make a pledge, put it here or PM me. It seems the clock has not even started on the 30 days.
Hopefully my audience learned something from my failure.
Quote: WizardI agree. I don't regret what I did, but don't feel like going through it again. A few people have offered to make donations, but I doubt I'll get anywhere near the 3K. Remember, I collected only about $150 for my Scale the Strat charity fund raiser. Not to sound ungrateful to those who donated to that, but am just drawing a comparison for the sake of reality. Nevertheless, if you wish to officially make a pledge, put it here or PM me. It seems the clock has not even started on the 30 days.
Hopefully my audience learned something from my failure.
How many floors is the Strat scaling? That sounds like a fun thing to run a charity for.
Quote: aceofspadesJudges don't bite the hand that feeds them
The judge got the call on which way to go
long before the court date. He got the call
the day he became a judge.
Did you know that every slot machine in Crown Casino in Melbourne displays its hold percentage somewhere in its information/pay table screens? (Meanwhile, the machines at Star City in Sydney are as tight-lipped as the ones in Vegas.)
Quote: ThatDonGuywhat stops Carson City (with a little prodding from casino interests) from ramming a bill through
I'm also thinking that the legislature needs to make some laws on this, going one way or the other.
I see two other possible ways to get the info we seek. One is to ask a legislator to introduce a bill saying that slot returns aren't confidential. Not likely, but it wouldn't take much effort and so it's probably worth a shot.
The other idea is to just *ask* casinos for the info. Most of them wouldn't want to, but probably at least a couple of them would. And once *any* casinos are participating, that puts pressure on all the other casinos to participate too. And once a casino is making a public claim about its figures, then it's possible to get Gaming to verify them. And at the very least, the effort would have been made, and if every single casino refuses to provide any info, they can be appropriately publicly chastised. I'll try to work on this myself in 2014 unless the Wizard prefers to, or unless we're making progress on another resolution by then. What say you, Wiz?
Quote: MichaelBluejayI'd donate $100, though, regardless of that obstacle.
Thanks! I'm at $850 now.
Quote:I see two other possible ways to get the info we seek. One is to ask a legislator to introduce a bill saying that slot returns aren't confidential. Not likely, but it wouldn't take much effort and so it's probably worth a shot.
In the unlikely event I got one to introduce such a bill, it would just get voted down in the legislature, or vetoed by the governor. I don't see that going far in this state.
Quote:The other idea is to just *ask* casinos for the info. Most of them wouldn't want to, but probably at least a couple of them would. And once *any* casinos are participating, that puts pressure on all the other casinos to participate too. And once a casino is making a public claim about its figures, then it's possible to get Gaming to verify them. And at the very least, the effort would have been made, and if every single casino refuses to provide any info, they can be appropriately publicly chastised. I'll try to work on this myself in 2014 unless the Wizard prefers to, or unless we're making progress on another resolution by then. What say you, Wiz?
Only the El Cortez releases such information to the Public. The Palms will show it to Anthony Curtis only. I don't think anybody would care much if I came out with a list of shame and everybody except the El Cortez was on it.
Quote: WizardI suppose I can give you that. One of the machines I surveyed was Fortune Cookie, which was popular at the time. The possible settings were:
85.032%
87.521%
90.035%
92.541%
94.010%
94.966%
96.190%
97.412%
This range was common for all the slots. The casinos towards the bottom usually went with the lowest, whatever it was. It got to be that I would sit down at a machine at certain unnamed casinos and just know it was the lowest setting, but I still played to verify it.
Thank you for that information. Since NJ requires paybacks of 83% or higher, it looks like the manufacturers comply by not having a setting lower than the legally mandated minimum. Presumably the casinos don't have to produce any paperwork to show compliance if every machine they purchase does not even have a setting lower than allowed by law.
By looking at the extreme values of your survey over the 71 casinos, we can guess that most casinos seldom or ever used the top two settings.
1 Palms 93.42%
2 Gold Coast 92.84%
...
70 Venetian 86.66%
71 Airport 85.02%
For political purposes, let us assume that your comment was referring to the airport. It is natural to expect that the airport slots are the tightest in the city for the same reason you expect to pay more for fast food or a drink in an airport.
Quote: pacomartinBy looking at the extreme values of your survey over the 71 casinos, we can guess that most casinos seldom or ever used the top two settings.
As I recall, the only top setting I ever found was at the New York New York. I was very surprised, and think they may have put the wrong chip in.
I guess you are by far the best choice.
- just watching the video, with no prior knowledge, it seemed pretty clear Wiz was gonna lose. Their argument was very "common sense" based, which usually is a bad idea in the justice system.
- don't flame me too hard (as the arrogant European that I am), but I was shocked to see how an American judge can reach a decision in exactly 0 seconds; I rewound the video because at first I thought I had missed a cut; no deliberation at all; maybe the decision was already made based on filings beforehand, but then why have a hearing at all; these court proceedings seem like Las Vegas weddings - "You may kiss the bride - NEEEXT!"
- instead of appealing, I was thinking about going after the advertising practices of the Casinos - payback percentages without any proof; but I think I know enough about US adversting regulations already (none?), so that my not be an option. After all, this is ok:
"Spray yourself with Sextosterone(tm) and you will get a promotion and fuck your wife like there is no tomorrow - (also, watch your little girl grow a dick)"
I didn't see any argument made that they had the requirement to reveal the data. I did think the defence of 'we don't have this data' was rather pathetic, and I was surprised how quick the result was.
Quote: thecesspitI did think the defence of 'we don't have this data' was rather pathetic, and I was surprised how quick the result was.
To me the quickness said 'why are you even here with this,
go away. Our minds were made up before you even filed.'
Quote: WizardAs I recall, the only top setting I ever found was at the New York New York. I was very surprised, and think they may have put the wrong chip in.
I wonder if the slot manager has a special machine that only his grandmother knew about.
I wonder if you had presented your data as high-low-mean instead of just mean data if you could have started a rush on NY-NY. People are funny. They will sometimes act indifferently to a few percentage points in a nearby casino even though they intuitively know that the locals casinos probably pay better than the casinos at the large corporations. But they will dash around a casino if they think there is a ringer.
In Japan they sometimes set one of the Pachinko machines with a much higher payback (sometimes even over 100%). It is dangerous as you can start a physical fight as some people try to maintain control of the machine (with a friend) on a bathroom break.
Quote: paisielloPut me down for $10. And I'll match anyone who puts down $10 also.
Well I'm in for $10 and I guess Paisello is now in for $ 20.
But I go back to my original question - Is this a battle worth fighting IF there is little or no
chance of winning ?
If there is something else the Wiz wants to pursue with some backers, I'd rather see my
$ 10 (and Paisello's $ 20 !) applied to that.
Quote: JohnnyQBut I go back to my original question - Is this a battle worth fighting IF there is little or no chance of winning ?
I talked to a high level person at the Gaming Commission, and he says that they think that the law is outdated. All these same companies compete in Atlantic City where they release detailed information on every casino. It's part of transparency.
There must be some legal basis to the gaming law in New Jersey and every other state. I doubt that gamblers use the data enough to really hurt any single operation. At worst it may throw some business towards the locals casinos which will probably have a lower take. I would think that they would be very supportive. The Palms certainly used Michael's data from 2002. I am a little surprised that the % take at A-Club is just as high or higher than the big corporations, but people may simply go there because everything else is cheap (but not the gambling).
Atlantic City April 2013
SLOT MACHINE CASINO WIN
9.0% AC-club
9.0% Bally's
8.3% Borgata
9.4% Ceasars
9.3% Golden Nugget
8.4% Harrah's
8.7% Resort's Casino
8.9% Revel
10.0% Showboat
8.9% Tropicana
8.9% Trump Plaza
9.2% Trump Taj Majal
| ATL. CLUB | BALLY'S | Borgata | Slot Machine |
|---|---|---|---|
| 11.8% | 13.20% | 11.40% | $ .01 & .02 |
| 5.6% | 10.20% | 8.00% | $ .05 |
| 7.0% | 7.80% | 9.20% | $ .25 |
| 4.4% | 5.60% | 6.40% | $ .50 |
| 6.5% | 6.10% | 8.00% | $1.00 |
| 6.6% | 4.80% | 5.80% | $5.00 |
| -4.1% | 8.30% | 12.00% | $25.00 |
| 0.0% | 10.80% | 11.40% | $100.00 |
| 4.1% | 7.70% | 5.50% | Multi-denominational |
| 5.4% | 6.80% | 6.10% | Other |
| 9.0% | 9.00% | 8.30% | Total |
If every other state made this private information, I would say there is no chance. But the fact is that only NV treats this information as confidential.
"Just trust us..." should be the new State motto
What about buying 1 share in the casinos that are publicly traded, then attempt, as a shareholder, to gain access to the documents?
Quote: JohnnyQWell I'm in for $10 and I guess Paisello is now in for $ 20.
I think that brings us to $900.
Quote:But I go back to my original question - Is this a battle worth fighting IF there is little or no chance of winning ?
I agree. That is why I wasn't going to appeal with my own money. However, I'll volunteer my time if others put up the money.
Quote: aceofspadesI am absolutely amazed that there is no transparency in NV
Have lived here for 12 years; I'm not.
Quote:What about buying 1 share in the casinos that are publicly traded, then attempt, as a shareholder, to gain access to the documents?
Can anybody comment on the legal merits of this strategy?
Quote: aceofspadesWhat about buying 1 share in the casinos that are publicly traded, then attempt, as a shareholder, to gain access to the documents?
Wizard's Survey from 2003
As the information will probably help the locals casino, it would help to have them on your side, or at least an affadavit that they don't care as long as everyone's information is released at once.
It is like the Dotty's Slot Parlors. They were operating unmolested for a decade, then suddenly they were illegal. The spread in the Wizard survey is over 8% difference from top to bottom. The spread in NJ is much tighter. Transparency has a lot to do with that.
