Casinos' Attitude of Skilled Winners of Tables Games
Quote: PaigowdanI feel that there is something wrong with trying to be an AP, or in its approval, in terms of a being a manager who is responsible for a casino business' loss prevention posture and effectiveness.
Quote: Zcore13There is nothing wrong with someone that is trying to be an AP.
Quote: PaigowdanI think it [APs who play by the rules] is an unethical scam against casino businesses.
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Scamming a live table games operation of a casino business, through one of many possible mechanisms and in bad game faith, is unacceptable and is to be discouraged or (politely) not tolerated.
I agree with Zcore13 on this issue of individual skilled winners in the casino.Quote: Zcore13your way is outdated and old school.
I am not part of casino management. But through my play, I have become close to a number of top management of table games and--due to a strong interest and curiosity as to how casino management does its job and, in particular, how the casinos view my own play--I've had many conversations with some top people over the years. I've also read several recent text books on casino management. I recognize this does not make me an expert--just informed.
The prevailing view--as I see it--is that casinos do NOT begrudge or resent winners. Even skilled winners. Just the opposite. I am not simply talking about dealers here--who do want players to win (in my experience)--but rather senior management.
Casino management is not concerned about the few individual players who approach the game with intelligence and discipline.
As Zcore13 as stated, "why ruin the fun for 99.9% of the people for the .1 (or less I would guess) that are so abnormally skilled that they can win?"
I have always been sincerely and genuinely congratulated on my own wins by the tables games supervisors and floor persons. Maybe they simply like me as an individual because I tip a lot?! Seriously, I don't recall a single instance in which I was treated as if I engaged in an "unethical scam" or accused of doing "something wrong" when I have won.
I've discussed this subject specifically on a number of occasions and the view of management with whom I have spoken is the same as Zcore13--which is there is nothing wrong with a player being skilled or trying to be an AP.
Just after posting this, I realize that saying "casino management is not concerned" may be a little overstated. Perhaps management is "concerned" at times. But management still believes there is nothing wrong with skilled players.Quote: JimboCasino management is not concerned about the few individual players who approach the game with intelligence and discipline.
Apparently you have never been back roomed, threatened and attacked by security guards for simply playing a video poker progressives. Apparently you have not been around during mass player 86'ing during a casino promo. Apparently you have never received a you are to good for us don't come back registered letter. Apparently you have never been stopped and harassed for just exchanging money in a casino. I could go on and on but you get the point. THEY DO CARE THEY CARE VERY MUCH. They just don't make a stink about weekend warriors playing .25 on FPDW or guys with a 5-50 or 100 spreads at big casinos go try 10-100 at a small joint like the longhorn.Quote: JimboQuote: PaigowdanI think it [APs who play by the rules] is an unethical scam against casino businesses.
...
Scamming a live table games operation of a casino business, through one of many possible mechanisms and in bad game faith, is unacceptable and is to be discouraged or (politely) not tolerated.
The prevailing view--as I see it--is that casinos do NOT begrudge or resent winners. Even skilled winners. Just the opposite. I am not simply talking about dealers here--who do want players to win (in my experience)--but rather senior management.
Casino management is not concerned about the few individual players who approach the game with intelligence and discipline.
Quote:
Jimbo
I agree with Zcore13 on this issue of individual skilled winners in the casino.
I am not part of casino management. But through my play, I have become close to a number of top management of table games and--due to a strong interest and curiosity as to how casino management does its job and, in particular, how the casinos view my own play--I've had many conversations with some top people over the years. I've also read several recent text books on casino management. I recognize this does not make me an expert--just informed.
Well Jimbo it's great to know that you don't consider yourself an expert, because I don't think that I'm a expert on this either, but please do some quotes from these books you have read on casino management, because I've read everything I can get my hand on about it and no where have I ever seen anything about them not being concerned about AP play! Quite the contrary, to what you are writing there are books dedicated to how to spot AP play.
I guess that you have never been asked to leave a casino or been banned from one because of your skill!
Now because of our library system here in Vegas, I don't have to buy every book on casino management and only have one in front of me right now, so I will do a few quotes from it.
This will be from The Casino Management Handbook by Mark Tracy. Page 97 lets look a card counters.
Quote:
Some casinos feel that moving the shuffle point forward and only dealing 50 to 60% of the cards, will prevent them from being beating by card counters.
Quote:
Page 91 Over the years, casinos have developed methods to thwart these skilled players or “card counter”
Look here is some books that I've reviewed on gaming, as I said there is no need for me to go out and buy every book on casino management, because they are available in our library system, and when anybody is in Vegas they should take some time out and spend a few hours in one of our libraries to read about casino management.
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/forum41.php
When it comes to card counting in BJ, I don't play the game, but I've seen enough players that were just getting lucky asked to leave the casino, because some stupid pit boss thought they were counting cards.
Now for the real card counters, that is why they have to move their play around, they have been banned from different casinos around the country.
If your a skilled player no casino wants you in their doors, this even goes for one of the negative games craps, where some of these fiction writers wants everybody to believe that there are AP players playing craps. I know of players that are banned from casinos here in Vegas and they aren't these guys that are writing fiction! Although there aren't to many of them, it does happen!
Casino Management “A Strategic Approach” by Kathryn Hashimoto
Quote:
Chapter 4
Page 80. How much profit a casino makes depends much less than in other businesses upon how good it is at competing for customers. Profit levels depend much more upon how successful casino companies are at persuading politicians to pass laws and impose regulations that serve its interests.
These laws and regulations are in place to protect the casinos, they have the right to ban you from play if you are considered a AP player here in NV.
So if your an out of town player, that has some time on your hands and are one of the smarter players, you might want to check out our libraries! There is one on the south end of the strip, that you would have to take a bus to if you didn't have a rental car, for those of you that stay at Sam's Town or one of the Boulder Hwy casinos the is one at 5175 East Tropicana Avenue which is only a few blocks west of Boulder Hwy!
https://www.google.com/search?q=las+vegas+library&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
I do agree with you, that there is nothing wrong with trying to be an AP, but I also agree that where legal, management has the right to ban you from playing those games.
It used to be exciting and fun to receive registered mail at one time, however back in about 1998 Palace Station started sending out letters to a few advantage players due to a flurry of good plays that highly favored smart committed players things like a few monthly 50k point competitions. and some others. Under the advisement of an out side consultant advising not to have certain pro's or team players around. Back then "advantage players" was not the term used. casino management sent out a few registered letters 5 I think saying if you come back you would be trespassed. Its been so long I don't remember exactly what the letters said. It must have worked because they sent out many more, other casinos hired the same consultants apparently because things changed rapidly after that and other casinos started doing this as well. Promotions suffered to. Of course pro's never signed for mail after that. A mail man at your door was never fun after that.Quote: 1BBI've seen a lot but the registered letter is a new one. Care to elaborate? I seldom play rated but that doesn't mean they can't and haven't identified me.
Quote: PaigowdanI think it [APs who play by the rules] is an unethical scam against casino businesses.
...
Scamming a live table games operation of a casino business, through one of many possible mechanisms and in bad game faith, is unacceptable and is to be discouraged or (politely) not tolerated.
I admire Dan's work in gaming and his success with his game(s), but I think he is way off base by labeling AP's as "unethical"...and learning to count is not a scam. He consistently lumps all types of gaining an advantage as a "scam" or "unethical" when there are major differences in the ways players gain an advantage.
CHEATING is a scam and is unethical. Past posting is cheating.
Simply keeping track of the cards that are played and knowing what the composition of the remaining cards in the deck is just using your brain for the intended purpose--thinking! The fact that no one produces anything more than the vague "it is against the house rules" (no one seems to ever post a copy of these fabled rules) shows that there isn't really a "rule" just the right of the casino to fire any player that they think is gaining an advantage over them (except where that is not legal).
Going the opposite direction, maybe we should call what the casinos due to alter the game to make it more profitable to them "cheating". They take the rules of the existing game they placed and modify the rules for such things as 6:5 blackjacks and differing rules on hitting the 17. Oh--there is no law against that and I suppose the laws might even support it--but it is trying to gain more of an advantage over players making the games less and less fair.
I'd be interested to know how much casinos lose to people who can really count and how much they gain from people who start the evening counting and end the evening blubbering drunk and playing imperfect strategy. Are casinos cheating by pouring drinks to people who are otherwise smart enough to recognize the correct play or play the correct amount (within their bankroll...no drunken ATM trips)?
When counting is glamorized, casinos win. They win off the people who think they can but can't...
Casinos LET people make the "wrong" play at blackjack. Sure, some dealers will ask if you are sure that is what you want to do, etc. They gain an extra advantage by my poor ass play at the table yet some management people like Dan think people who try to gain an advantage by making the right bet and correct play are unethical.
Casinos exist to make a profit. I get it. They provide negative expectation games. Good enough. Gaining an advantage through smart play is neither unethical or illegal if no cheating is involved. The casino does have the right to ask you to take a hike because you are beating them.
Quote: RonCYES THEY DO. should they hell no. Why do they have this right? My guess is because if someone figures out a way to beat a game and they are not able to figure it out. If they cant toss you out they could lose millions. Or perhaps someone is cheating but they cant figure it out. They can't afford to let you crush them while investigating then your off to a 3rd world country.Quote: PaigowdanThe casino does have the right to ask you to take a hike because you are beating them.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Heck, don't be a pain in arse, and you'll increase your chances of being acceptable. Tip and be sociable and you could even score some extra comps or players' club points.Quote: JimboThe prevailing view--as I see it--is that casinos do NOT begrudge or resent winners. Even skilled winners. Just the opposite. I am not simply talking about dealers here--who do want players to win (in my experience)--but rather senior management.
Casino management is not concerned about the few individual players who approach the game with intelligence and discipline.
Quote: RonCCasinos exist to make a profit....Gaining an advantage through smart play is neither unethical or illegal if no cheating is involved. The casino does have the right to ask you to take a hike because you are beating them.
I am in agreement with both the quotes here.Quote: AxelWolfTHEY [the casinos] DO CARE THEY CARE VERY MUCH [about skilled players].
The main point of my original post is whether or not casinos view skilled players as unethical. Maybe it is a question of semantics, but I do not believe so.
I have agreed with some of Paigowdan's posts, but on this issue, I respectfully feel that his position (on behalf of casino management) of labeling APs as unethical and saying they are engaged in a scam is a little extreme.
I readily admitted that I am not an expert. The reason I am on this Forum is to learn and become more informed--and I am interested in the views of others on this issue to learn more.
I also quickly corrected myself in my original post to say that yes, casinos are "concerned" about skilled players. I've read the same things that superrick quoted to me from the casino management books. I am very much aware that casinos--out of concern--have implemented a number of procedures to remove or reduce some of the advantage that skilled players may try to achieve--such as (in Blackjack) less deck penetration, no mid-shoe entry, less favorable rules on double-deck, lower table maximums to lessen the bet spread, etc.
I am primarily a craps player, so perhaps I see less "casino heat" than those who specialize in blackjack.
What I have been told is this: The highly skilled players (really, we are talking blackjack here) who are most successful are few and far between. Most casinos know who they are. And yes, casinos are concerned about their play. And their play is not welcome.
But for most players who play with skill and discipline who may be winners even over the long term--the casinos do not view their behavior as "unethical" or a "scam."
Quote: SOOPOOJimbo- having read some of your previous posts you are a big time player, you mentioned tipping green while playing craps. If your wins are while playing craps they should congratulate you, you are playing a negative expectation game, and they know that there is a 'theoretical loss' that you just sustained. It is in the casinos best interests to have you keep coming back. As a generous big tipper, it is in the crew's interests to have you keep coming back. If you were spreading $100 to $2000 on a BJ table, I am not so sure the casino would have treated you the same.
I do agree with you, that there is nothing wrong with trying to be an AP, but I also agree that where legal, management has the right to ban you from playing those games.
This is correct. Jimbo, you've been lucky enough to pull down some big wins at the craps table, consistently. The casino will welcome you back - heck they will send a car to pick you up!
With all due respect, you are playing a negative game. In the long run, they know they'll catch up with you.
I have been backed off from 2 blackjack games where my top bet was $100. Others have similarly ridiculous stories. Correct or not from a management perspective, they do care about card counters because they know they pose a long-term risk.
In other words, the action level and ground rules have to be acceptable to BOTH parties involved in the bet; the action has to progress with all game and house rules being followed accurately and in good faith. 99.99% of the time this is no problem.
If no wrong-doing was ever involved, the play was clean, and everything went done by the house rules, then obviously the casino would be unethical, foolish, and in a sense morally wrong to shut down play on a winning high roller who's clean. Certainly, a casino should allow a clean player to continue, if only for their chance of winning it back where the mathematical odds indicate this is the probable outcome.
In some rare cases with 100% clean play, the results (read: massive and non-stop player wins) are so baffling and crippling to the casino, they may and sometimes do shut down games just out of "operational upset and confusion" at what's going down. They may feel, believe, or argue among themselves that something is going on that may be improper that they just don't yet know about, and sometimes - not always - that may be the case. This is especially so with a smaller house that can't withstand the losses, regardless of the "cleanliness" or properness of play.
In cases where there are house rules broken due to some malfeasance or unacceptable practices (card counting or hole carding, or worse), the player may (politely) be backed off, but also without authentic apology. Some downtown and a few strip casinos can be quick with heavy-handed backoffs, the "take a hike" backoff. Eliot J. had written about an egregious backoff that he was subjected to.
And "Skilled play" depends on what exactly that skill is. There is a difference between perfect strategy play, and play mechanisms that are not accepted, allowed, or sanctioned.
In terms of allowing some unsanctioned "play skills" to go on "whenever it suits us," I feel it is improper and unethical, from a table games management point of view (that some here will question). To say "we'll allow you to do something against the house rules at times only if you hang yourself in the process; if you win, then we'll hang you or back you off." If card counting is unacceptable when the player exploits the house with it (and it is), it is also unacceptable when the player hangs himself with it - and gets exploited by the house, that is, if he is trying to do it and you know it and caught it as management. To try to have it both ways ("table game play that isn't clean is acceptable - but only if the player loses") gives the industry a bad rep. You enforce policy and rules on a equitable "occurrence" basis, and not on a "if it suits me" basis. An instance of card counting or hole carding is simply that, not "let's see if we can make some money on that, and back him off if we can't," or a "let's watch him hang himself" kind of thing. In this regard, flat-betting or backing off a counter as soon as it is known, regardless of his wins or loses, but instead on his deeds and actions, is the high ground.
Quote: 24BingoI think "skilled" is a misnomer. A monkey could count cards, or tally spins of a roulette wheel and run ÷-squared tests on the results, or take advantage of a flashing dealer. What separates an AP from a regular patron is the chutzpah to subvert the transaction that's generally understood to be taking place of juice for risk. Since this is concealed, it is an attempt to obtain money by misrepresenting oneself, and therefore it is a scam. A legal scam, against an entity that's usually little better, but still a scam.
I love you, man. :)
Seriously, the juice in gambling is in the gambling, and not in what side crap you can get away with in camoflage for cash in hand. The mere practice of camoflage makes a statement as to the nature of an activity.
Quote: PaigowdanI love you, man. :)
Seriously, the juice in gambling is in the gambling, and not in what side crap you can get away with in camoflage for cash in hand. The mere practice of camoflage makes a statement as to the nature of an activity.
Before the hug fest and high five's really start going, you guys do realize casinos are constantly using camouflage themselves.
Quote: RonCCasinos LET people make the "wrong" play at blackjack. Sure, some dealers will ask if you are sure that is what you want to do, etc. They gain an extra advantage by my poor ass play at the table yet some management people like Dan think people who try to gain an advantage by making the right bet and correct play are unethical.
This is a really bad point, they let people make hit/stand decisions and this is bad? You admit that they typically will try to steer you in the right direction when you make the most egregous errors, what else are they supposed to do? Just make all hit/stand/double/split decisions without consulting the customer.
Quote: RonCI admire Dan's work in gaming and his success with his game(s), but I think he is way off base by labeling AP's as "unethical"...and learning to count is not a scam. He consistently lumps all types of gaining an advantage as a "scam" or "unethical" when there are major differences in the ways players gain an advantage.
The basis I do use is very simple: "Within the acccepted house rules, or out of bounds of the accepted house rules." A boolean. The arguments of "Intelligent and disciplined" as justification or sanitizing of an action is often used. One can argue that many embezzlers and diamond burglars are intelligent and discipline, and indeed many are. And even cool, righteous, and very Robin Hood or James Bond-like. (See: The Thomas Crown Affair.
Quote: RoncCHEATING is a scam and is unethical. Past posting is cheating.
Simply keeping track of the cards that are played and knowing what the composition of the remaining cards in the deck is just using your brain for the intended purpose--thinking! The fact that no one produces anything more than the vague "it is against the house rules" (no one seems to ever post a copy of these fabled rules) shows that there isn't really a "rule" just the right of the casino to fire any player that they think is gaining an advantage over them (except where that is not legal).
I agree that the "it's against the house rules" via the "entering into mutually accepted bet" thing can be an unfair catch-all. But card counting is discussed and documented extensively by operators as it relates to game protection, and no, few internal Casino documents are disseminated to the general public. This is a PR posture on a distasteful subject for the casinos.
I mentioned that in the history of blackjack, the game was brought forth and cobbled together over time, with little design thought to countability, and entered the gambling halls with the assumption that it was "unfraudable." Then Edward O. Thorpe research the game, and defined methods to exploit a game vulnerability "trap door" of Blackjack. Casinos, instead of killing a crucial product for them, also cobbled together a sloppy fix to the game instead, which consisted mostly of a fudged mix of cut-card depth variations, CSM introductions, and manual surveillance review and floormen backoffs as a game design "fix" to the situation.
Knowing this, casinos said:
1. You can play the game if using straight up basic strategy; if you use Thorpe's method, you may not play, or else be flat-betted, and we will inform you of this situation if need be.
2. Since wagering is on a mututally accepted basis, this is how we'll handle it: keep the game because of the massive general play it gets, and trim off the team play and AP play on it.
3. Card counting, especially successful card counting, is a no-no. House rule procedure is that they may be backed off, flat-betted, or 86-ed.
4. Arguments of "Intelligence and discipline" aren't the issue. Card counting isn't rocket science. It is a concrete and detectable procedure that is disallowed, and a procedure that has to be deliberately studied and employed by an individual. It is nominally "forbidden to use" in essence, and the use and discussion of camoflage and concealment plays testify to this status, as do backoffs, flat-betting, and 86-ing players . Not a capital crime, but a disallowed procedure for players to use by the house.
Quote: RonCI'd be interested to know how much casinos lose to people who can really count and how much they gain from people who start the evening counting and end the evening blubbering drunk and playing imperfect strategy. Are casinos cheating by pouring drinks to people who are otherwise smart enough to recognize the correct play or play the correct amount (within their bankroll...no drunken ATM trips)?
Discplined counters treat it like a business; it is, in fact, a business for the serious ones. Stategic investment shows this. Social players drink. Working and serious card counters work sober.
Quote: RonCWhen counting is glamorized, casinos win. They win off the people who think they can but can't...
It popularizes the game in both a general way and in that specific way.
There are right reasons to play and wrong reasons to play any game. the question arises, "Am I here to gamble, or to carry out some other game, one that involves study, procedure, and is known to be against the house rules."
Quote: RonCCasinos LET people make the "wrong" play at blackjack. Sure, some dealers will ask if you are sure that is what you want to do, etc. They gain an extra advantage by my poor ass play at the table yet some management people like Dan think people who try to gain an advantage by making the right bet and correct play are unethical.
This isn't the case. Hitting and standing are player's choices, yes, and if people make the wrong play and they win, they too get paid. And if people make the right play by basic strategy and win, they get paid. But if they deliberately use and carry out disallowed procedures and mechanisms, it can arguably be "not right play" in the casino's eyes. Timing betting amounts in parallel to the count can fall into this catagory.
Quote: RonCCasinos exist to make a profit. I get it. They provide negative expectation games. Good enough. Gaining an advantage through smart play is neither unethical or illegal if no cheating is involved. The casino does have the right to ask you to take a hike because you are beating them.
Gaining an advantage through smart play that is deemed proper by the house is allowed.
Gaining an advantage by employing disallowed game procedures is a different thing. Disallowed play is not smart play, it is disallowed play when the floorman informs you.
Quote: rainmanBefore the hug fest and high five's really start going, you guys do realize casinos are constantly using camouflage themselves.
Casinos are remarkably fair and straight up in game play. Granted, house edges are both required to make the business operational, and hidden to the best ability of a game designer's skill (BJ is particuarly smooth or insidious with its "dealer is last to bust" mechanism, and that was thought out carefully by someone eons ago).
But casinos are pretty open about their business, and floormen are always willing to listen on a claim, and are reasonably straight up - as well as heavily regulated, in operation. No one is compelled to come.
Quote: JimboI agree with Zcore13 on this issue of individual skilled winners in the casino.
Same. I wonder how old he is, when he came into the game. Seems the older and more established are more on the PGD side of the scale, whereas the young and new are more on I and Zcore’s side of things.
I dunno, I just see a lot of the “Old School” as anywhere from “meh” to downright wrong. Just look at superrick’s quote from the manual. Cut 50 – 60% off the shoe? For what?! You have any idea how much that guy is guaranteeing to lose by short shoeing vs the possibility of maybe losing to an AP?
I’m not lumping PGD in with that guy; PGD certainly has more sense than that. But thoughts like that particular manager’s are way more damaging to the casino’s bottom line than any AP.
Quote: FaceSame. I wonder how old he is, when he came into the game. Seems the older and more established are more on the PGD side of the scale, whereas the young and new are more on I and Zcore’s side of things.
I dunno, I just see a lot of the “Old School” as anywhere from “meh” to downright wrong. Just look at superrick’s quote from the manual. Cut 50 – 60% off the shoe? For what?! You have any idea how much that guy is guaranteeing to lose by short shoeing vs the possibility of maybe losing to an AP?
It is a big loss; every shuffle up of a 6-deck is a dead, no-income block of time essentially wasted. I see that. We had in a secondary weekend pit a 6-deck shoe that 5+ decks came out of, with decent rules. The "safe, wine-drinking locals" would be there just to play and socialize, flat betting dimes, a girls night out with their guys kind of group. Some would win, some would lose, all had a good time, and the table held 20%. Everything fine and dandy. Then Mr. Baseball Cap would come in, spread 10x, and penetration goes to 60%- with a lot of heat. Just wrecks it.
And getting a multi-deck block shuffler to speed up this now shallow penetration shoe would be just too expensive to lease, for a shoe game in the scond pit. What to do....
Quote: FaceI’m not lumping PGD in with that guy; PGD certainly has more sense than that. But thoughts like that particular manager’s are way more damaging to the casino’s bottom line than any AP.
We saw the costs involved in offering a safe game versus a juicy game, and the balancing acts required.
Often the penetration depths were constantly adjusted.
What we saw is the "stickiness" of offering good shoe games, or wanting to.
The whole cat and mouse game is just a headache.
Quote: rainmanBefore the hug fest and high five's really start going, you guys do realize casinos are constantly using camouflage themselves.
You can say that all you like, but I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't realize whose money keeps the games going. Indeed, those who think it's possible to beat the house within the rules will tell you that the idea you can't is a conspiracy by the casinos - and even they think their "system" is the exception.
Quote: PaigowdanCasinos are remarkably fair and straight up in game play. Granted, house edges are both required to make the business operational, and hidden to the best ability of a game designer's skill (BJ is particuarly smooth or insidious with its "dealer is last to bust" mechanism, and that was thought out carefully by someone eons ago).
But casinos are pretty open about their business, and floormen are always willing to listen on a claim, and are reasonably straight up - as well as heavily regulated, in operation. No one is compelled to come.
Seems like a double standard to me. You commented that the fact that players use camouflage indicates a sense of wrong doing. Then why is it that the advertisements that get sent to me from casinos don't show players losing their shirts at the table? If the house adheres to the a set of rules, they are remarkably fair and straight up because it's just advertising, but if a player adheres to a set of rules and "advertises" then it becomes an admission of guilt?
I'm not commenting on the debate. If the casino's position is to keep out APs then that is certainly their right. I just don't agree with classifying the same thing as justified if it happens to fall on your side of the argument.
Quote: PaigowdanCasinos are remarkably fair and straight up in game play.
Yes in game play they are. What they stand too lose if they are not keeps them that way.
However I always feel offended when I see such things as (for one instead of to one) It gives me a this place is out to confuse me and take advantage of me feeling. I can list numerous examples like the previous.
Casinos use every tactic they can to liberate me from my cash. I don't begrudge them for it As I myself employe every tactic I can to do the same. I don't break any laws while doing so. House rules are another matter. I don't respect them because they seem to be endlessly changeable so no matter what they can insure I will loose.
Quote: rainmanEdit: Only the first sentence is Dan the rest is mine screwed something up.
Click "edit" and it'll bring your post back up. After Dan's sentence, you must "close the quote" by typing [ /q ] (without spaces)
Quote: IbeatyouracesI don't drink at a casino or anywhere else for that matter.
I had a few drinks while playing last night at the Cannery [Warning - A confession is coming....
Playing Pai Gow and dice and Baccarat - and Blackjack after a long while - I had a few vodka and sodas....out with the wife, dinner, movie, some gambling kind of thing, had a room there.....
While playing EZ Pai Gow, I see my friend Noel at a double-deck table from across the pit. I used to deal dice with him, and wanted to catch up, he's working on the strip now, good for him. PaiGowDan goes to Blackjack, a double deck game.
I leave the Pai Gow table with $75 in nickels and two quarters, no color up, (did announce what I left with and was okayed), and I jump on the double deck game with my old friend. New deal, fresh shuffle, I put $15 in the spot and chit-chating with Noel. Low cards come out all over the place, I have two 5's, I double down, got the only ten for a 20 and a win. Next hand...I find my hand strangely pushing out $30 now...feeling a little creepy about it...I get a 2 and a 3 as my hand against a dealer's 9, hit get a 6, hit again and get a 3 for 14. I know the count, but basic strategy says hit, so in proper good faith I hit expecting to bust. I get a 6, and win over the dealer's 17, which came 9, 4, and 4. Two rounds of play on a full doube-deck game depletes the crap out of 2-6 cards, the running count is running a serious freaking temperature now, and I try to ignore that.
I turn to Noel, who asks me who is still working at Fiesta, (while he is also looking at all the asses of the women dealers at the "nearby" across the pit view), and I tell him, "Yeah, Mike and Joel are still there," while also harmlessly noticing one absolute backside stunner; Noel's "sou-sou doggy" -ness is contagious and humorous...and sometimes a man cannot help himself from admiring a Kim Kardashian-level thing of beauty. Drinking and gambling and admiring asses while chatting with an old friend in gaming, the last thing on my mind was card counting......
But then, the unthinkable happens....while discussing Noel's picking up Baccarat and poker type games with his new work on the strip, I see out of the corner of my eye, my right hand pick up the two quarters and four nickels ($70 now), and just SLIDE that amount right into the betting spot, - like my right arm was demonically possed by HALF of the freaking AP shot takers right here at THIS board or some shit. I even turn to Noel and say, "I FEEL a 20 coming..." Then dealer then calls "no more bets..." And I'm locked in....I'm thinking, "Did I just what do I THINK I did, of all people?... I get a 20 and win. It was like a WOV possession. Horrifying. Auto Pilot.
Wow. Guilty as charged in my mind. Flummoxed. Flabbergasted. Stunned. ME? Astonishing.... (Now, I am NOT going to say: "I felt so DIRTY" or anything like that, but I was REALLY suprised at myself, and drunk.)
Seen it a thousand times. Normally, it's "Sir, you're getting Flat-betted" or "You're going to Roulette."
Nobody notices. Dealer even said to me, "You should have bet the Lucky Ladies - I TOLD you!"
I color up and leave, and spend the rest of the night playing Pai Gow, Baccarat, and dice.
OK, you took the wife out for dinner, a movie and some gambling....ok nice enough, but at the Cannery.....omg...lol. You are top of the line, Dan. I hope the dinner at least didn't consist of the cannery row buffet. Although, in fairness, my playing partner and I ate at that very same cannery buffet yesterday late in the afternoon. My partner was there to play through our weekly free play. I didn't play. Too hard to get the limits I want out during that time of day. And in reality, both Cannery and Eastdide Cannery are two of my favorite lower limit buffets. The ham is very tender. Don't even need a knife to cut it and the boston cream pie...umm. I would ALMOST being willing to pay for that buffet. lol Sometimes I go just for the Boston Cream pie. :) But, had I know you were going to be there I would have stuck around to say 'hi', and take pictures of you, um....cheating to post everytime you bring up your AP judgemental crap.
Quote: Paigowdan... Kim Kardashian-level thing of beauty...
Of all your post, this is the only thing I would declare as a severe error of judgement requiring pennance.
All the rest is just keeping me employed. Keep it up ;)
Quote: FaceClick "edit" and it'll bring your post back up. After Dan's sentence, you must "close the quote" by typing [ /q ] (without spaces)
Yes, please spread this knowledge around - everyone learn how to fix your broken quotes!
Quote: kewljCheater! and worse, Dan...you are a hypocrite. So you played with an advantage and then even took their free drinks on top of it. That's crude. At least I have the decency not to do that. I only take their money.
Yeah, like I said, I do plead guilty. I was a hypocrite, - certainly in my actions - but there really was an autopilot thing going on. I "saw" the next bet like an immutable law of nature, you had to expect the next bet and see the next bet. It was almost like it would have been unnatural for it to be otherwise, like it couldn't be any other way based on natural visual sight, - does that make sense? But I was on the wrong side of a BJ table now, being now out of the pit. BJ for me is ruined, I think. Anyway, looking at that, I'm kind of surprised at myself.
We've all learned to count, and seen the progressions a thousand times, - I mean like second nature. Most for advantage play, some for game protection, and you naturally know what the next bet is going to be without thinking about it...I mean, without EVEN thinking about it, I was just unconsciously minicking what I would normally expect to see on the table in that situation without thinking about it, - and that's all. Really. I am telling you the truth. I was drinking, chatting with an old friend, and just admiring the ambience. I wasn't even paying attention, it just went down. I anticipated what I expect to see as the next bet for that situation, and without thought to it. And it just happened. It was only a surprising accident that I admit, and I quickly left the table feeling a bit weird. Not guilty, weird.
Quote: kewljTook the wife out for dinner, a movie and some gambling....ok nice enough, but at the Cannery.....omg...lol.
To eliminate any confusion, it was the Eastside Cannery.
The Cannery East isn't bad at all! Great rooms, great price on the player's card, friendly dealers, polite floormen, GREAT steak house, and next to Sam's Town's movie complex. Really close to where we live. No apologies in going there, but I also like the Orleans, and especially the Venetian. This time we went to the Eastside Cannery. No regrets at all.
Quote: kewljYou are top of the line, Dan. I hope the dinner at least didn't consist of the cannery row buffet.
The Carve Steak house. In fact, any food joint at the Eastside Cannery is very decent. No qualms, no problems, great food & service. Good comps with Cannery in general, from my experience.
Quote: kewljAlthough, in fairness, my playing partner and I ate at that very same cannery buffet yesterday late in the afternoon. My partner was there to play through our weekly free play. I didn't play. Too hard to get the limits I want out during that time of day. And in reality, both Cannery and Eastdide Cannery are two of my favorite lower limit buffets. The ham is very tender. Don't even need a knife to cut it and the boston cream pie...umm. Sometimes I go just for the Boston Cream pie. :) But, had, I know you were going to be there I would have stuck around to say 'hi', and take pictures of you, um....cheating to post everytime you bring up your AP judgemental crap.
Would have been totally busted by you dead to rights, but again, it was just a strange one-off occurrence. Hands were on autopilot doing what was expected to be seen from the wrong side of the table. Glad you weren't there.
I'm sure it'll fall into the abyss of the gazillion hours of surveillance tape that'll never ever be reviewed, nor needs to be, my surprising autopilot confession enough. It was all what I expected to see on a BJ table, and it looked very, very funny to me after the fact. I was surprised of my own hands.
Quote: rainmanPaigow please tell me your story had a fairy tale ending and you walked away without tipping. :) You left that part out.
Yup. Again, I confess. You know, I just up-and-left that table at that point, a straight-up color up and gone.
But I had toked nickels on the first and second hands (I was in a great mood, especially with hanging out at the table with Noel), but when I colored up, I did not tip. I just left. Normally, I do so, at least a nickel or whatever.
Quote: Paigowdan
To eliminate any confusion, it was the Eastside Cannery.
The Cannery East isn't bad at all! Great rooms, great price on the player's card, friendly dealers, polite floormen, GREAT steak house, and next to Sam's Town's movie complex. Really close to where we live. No apologies in going there, but I also like the Orleans, and especially the Venetian. This time we went to the Eastside Cannery. No regrets at all.
Well, I have nothing but good things to say about Eastside Can. It is hands down my favorite Casino. I almost don't like to talk about it on a forum like this because few people seem to realize what a gem this place is. I visit there almost daily. At least 5 times a week, eating on average 3-4 meals a week. I receive monthly mailers from 18-20 casinos every month. Eastside has the best and most generous mailers of any...hands down. They are very generous with bounce back and other promotional mailers to locals. I actually get 4 different mailers from them each month on my primary account.
The first is your weekly bounceback cash offer from machine play, example $48 each week of the month. The second peice of mail I receive is for table game play, (4) $25 free table game bets, one per week. And then there is always at least 1 usually 2 promotions that they have on specific days of the week, trying to entice you in several times during the week. This month for example there are 2 such 'auxillary' promotions. One is a scan card that you must bring to the Can club on Mondays to have scanned to reveal your prize. The second auxillary promo is a pulltab promotion. There are 8 pulltabs, one for each friday of the month and one for each saturday of the month, which again, must be opened in the presence of the can club. These auxillary or secondary mailer promotions will more than double your initial monthly bounceback offers. I easily receive $400-$500 in EV each month, plus generous food credits on my primary account from Eastside Can.
The staff is friendly, which isn't really all that important too me. But since I spend more time there than other places it's nice to not have those snobby type dealers that some places have. And the food is pretty good. I don't pay for it, but if you were paying for it, it seems very reasonably priced. besides the buffet, especially breakfasts on weekends, I like that sports deli place. They make good burgers and fries.
Quote: Ibeatyouraces
Dan, I wouldn't call you a cheater or hypocrite. You did what even most normal bj players do. You don't have to count in order to know all those little cards gone will help make the next hand better. I'd call you human if anything.
Whoa! let's not get crazy here. Dan human? com'on now. Well, maybe he's ALMOST human when he drinks. lol
I am 60 years old, though I did not really start my gaming activity as I do it today until I was nearly 50.Quote: FaceI wonder how old he is, when he came into the game. Seems the older and more established are more on the PGD side of the scale, whereas the young and new are more on I and Zcore’s side of things.
I guess I am young in my heart and soul.
He said, "No, every other player is here only to have fun. Their goal is not to win, but rather, their goal is to have fun for as long as possible, and their hope is that their play will allow that. But they do not expect to win in the end, and certainly not to win as you do."
I thought at the time that isn't it more fun to walk away a winner.
I now think that if Paigowdan was dealing me, he would undoubtedly have said I was playing unethically.
Quote: RonCCasinos LET people make the "wrong" play at blackjack.
This struck me as out of character for you, I thought you believed more in personal responsibility than to make a comment like that. What would you have the house do? Forbid plays that aren't in line with basic strategy? Then they wouldn't be playing the game any more than someone playing slots. They're playing the game precisely because their decisions matter.
I think it would be helpful for many posters here to look at casinos the way they look at other businesses. Would you ever see a quote like: "Clothing stores LET people buy clothes that don't look good together." Isn't it up to the customer to make the choice? Should the clothing store refuse to sell clothes to a customer that has indicated that they'll wear primary colors with pastels?
Quote: PaigowdanYes, they do care. They are running a business, and a business where bets are entered into on a mutually acceptable basis in most jurisdictions.
I think this is the crux of the argument that many are missing. Or at least getting upset about when the house exercises their right to refuse service.
Quote: rainman
Quote: PaigowdanCasinos are remarkably fair and straight up in game play.
Yes in game play they are. What they stand too lose if they are not keeps them that way.
However I always feel offended when I see such things as (for one instead of to one) It gives me a this place is out to confuse me and take advantage of me feeling. I can list numerous examples like the previous.
This strikes me as ridiculous. If someone doesn't understand some facet of the game there are any number of avenues of recourse. Ask a dealer. Ask a floor supervisor. Pick up one of the little pamphlets that explain the game. Use the internet. That some people will sit down at a game, put money on the table and then once cards are out confess that they don't know how to play the game can not be the fault of the house.
Quote: rainman
Casinos use every tactic they can to liberate me from my cash. I don't begrudge them for it As I myself employe every tactic I can to do the same. I don't break any laws while doing so. House rules are another matter. I don't respect them because they seem to be endlessly changeable so no matter what they can insure I will loose.
You might want to try some of those avenues of recourse I listed above.
Quote: JimboI was playing at Caesar's three years ago. I was (as is typical) standing immediately next to the dealer and it is common for me to converse with the dealers during the course of my play. The dealer was probably in his mid 60s and had obviously been a dealer a long time. I think it was during his second 40-minute shift dealing me, and I was up a fair amount at the time, when he said, "You are one of the only players in all of my years of dealing that is actually playing with the expectation of winning." And I said, "Well, do not most players expect to win?"
He said, "No, every other player is here only to have fun. Their goal is not to win, but rather, their goal is to have fun for as long as possible, and their hope is that their play will allow that. But they do not expect to win in the end, and certainly not to win as you do."
I thought at the time that isn't it more fun to walk away a winner.
I now think that if Paigowdan was dealing me, he would undoubtedly have said I was playing unethically.
Something seems fishy about this post unless I'm just missing it.
There's no way to play craps according to the rules that PGD would have an issue with. I.e., unless you're pinching or capping, or taking shots in some other way, there's no way to circumvent the so-called "house rules" and come out a winner long-term, like there is at blackjack.
And since the dealer flat out said things to you like "you're playing with the expectation of winning," it seems obvious that you weren't taking part in these blatant cheating activities. Unless you're really, really good at it.
So I don't get it. Could you tell us a little bit more about your craps playing strategy? I know you play the dark side, anything else unusual?
I really think you've just gotten on a tremendous streak of positive variance. Has to happen to someone.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyThis struck me as out of character for you, I thought you believed more in personal responsibility than to make a comment like that. What would you have the house do? Forbid plays that aren't in line with basic strategy? Then they wouldn't be playing the game any more than someone playing slots. They're playing the game precisely because their decisions matter.
I do believe in personal responsibility and the right of the casino to run the business the way it sees fit, including the right to ban a patron if they feel that is necessary. I took the same stretch that PGD often does--if it is somehow "unethical" to use your brain to play it seems to me that is just as "unethical" to allow a player to make an obvious mistake.
Neither is unethical.
I think you may be right about the streak of positive variance.Quote: AcesAndEightsI really think you've just gotten on a tremendous streak of positive variance. Has to happen to someone.
I assure you that I do not take part in cheating activities.
And though you say something seems "fishy," it would serve no purpose for me to post something that is not true.
I believe that even in a game with a negative expectation such as craps, it is still reasonable if not imperative to play "intelligently" (or with skill and discipline) in order to "minimize" the casino advantage. I also believe that with a sufficient bankroll, it is possible to "weather the storms" (or at least most the storms) when the dice inevitably goes against you.
I think that is what the Caesar's dealer had in mind based on my play when he made his comment.
I am reminded of a statement from a reported case involving a card counter that seems to clearly run counter to PDG's way of thinking:Quote: PaigowdanIn terms of allowing some unsanctioned "play skills" to go on "whenever it suits us," I feel it is improper and unethical, from a table games management point of view...
"Permitting a casino to restrict its patrons only to those customers who lack the skill and ability to play such games well intrudes upon principles of fair and equal competition and provides unfair financial advantages and rewards to casino operators. I am not persuaded that such schemes are supported or protected by any common law right or privilege."
Quote: IbeatyouracesWe had a pit supervisor once even tell us to load up after a bunch of small cards in a SD game once. Now thats rare.
This is not that rare, there's sometimes a "Yeah, go ahead, win some money back" attitude, especially if a game's been harsh to the people.
Quote: JimboI am reminded of a statement from a reported case involving a card counter that seems to clearly run counter to PDG's way of thinking:
"Permitting a casino to restrict its patrons only to those customers who lack the skill and ability to play such games well intrudes upon principles of fair and equal competition and provides unfair financial advantages and rewards to casino operators. I am not persuaded that such schemes are supported or protected by any common law right or privilege."
Let us be clear about one thing: I do not wish to see players lack skills, I wish they have skills and be competitive - the right skills, and within the allowable procedures of house. For that matter, certain skills, illicit skills that can turn a live gaming table into someone's "personal ATM" I am against. It goes both ways, and the presence of a reasonable house edge on a game - like protecting the admissions charge at a cinema - should be an accepted basis going in.
Perfect Basic Strategy skills - fine.
Percect counting skills and camoflage play - not fine.
Active hole carding, and seeking it out - Not fine.
Proper poker play on UTH and PGP - Yes, fine.
Marking cards - not fine.
etc.
It depends on the "skill." Some accountants are very good at "cooking the books" and covering the trail of embezzlement - and it is indeed a skill. Others are skilled at clean books and transparency. A good skill.
Quote: AcesAndEightsSomething seems fishy about this post unless I'm just missing it.
There's no way to play craps according to the rules that PGD would have an issue with. I.e., unless you're pinching or capping, or taking shots in some other way, there's no way to circumvent the so-called "house rules" and come out a winner long-term, like there is at blackjack.
And since the dealer flat out said things to you like "you're playing with the expectation of winning," it seems obvious that you weren't taking part in these blatant cheating activities. Unless you're really, really good at it.
You can have the expectation of winning some of the sessions, variance will see to that also, but to expect to be positive over the years with clean play is not to be expected. If you have fun playing, and feel the casino is a fun, enjoyable place to be, that's the goal, actually. And you may indeed expect your current session to be a good session, and have a "winning feeling" on a good day.
I think it should have been assumed--and particularly in the quote from the reported case with which I agree--that what is meant by "skill" is legal activity as opposed to illegal activity (such as marking cards, etc.).Quote: Paigowdanthe right skills...
You and I will simply have to respectfully agree to disagree on our different attitudes in how we approach to the game.
