John Chang MIT Interview w/Wiz on Radio

Quote: Paigowdan

Herd mentality? I'm the lone wolf at this place.

Dan, how often do you sit in a casino and lose $400
and feel great about being entertained?

Thats what I thought...

Quote: Paigowdan

Herd mentality? I'm the lone wolf at this place.

The lone wolf is often made by challenging the Alpha wolf and losing. He is kicked out after losing the fight for supremacy.

Alpha wolf = EvenBob ?

Quote: EvenBob

Dan, how often do you sit in a casino and lose $400
and fell great about being entertained?

Thats what I thought...

No it's not. I don't sweat losing twice that.

I buy in for $1K, and am down $400 five hours later, I think, "I had a great time!"
Look at this: Two show tickets and a great dinner: $400 also, with NO chance to win. Sometimes, usually, it's not even the same entertainment value: the show might have been bad, the food not so hot, that too is a gamble. Actually, THAT is not a gamble. You never have a shot to win back when spending on shows, dinners, etc.

But, about a third of the time I'm up, or even, and think, "I had a REALLY great time."

So do legions of people.

Quote: Paigowdan

I buy in for $1K, and am down $400 five hours later, I think, "I had a great time!"
.

Geez, its worse than I thought. Not only do you work
for the DarkSide, they've taken over your brain too.

Get out while you can, Dan. Thank god this is your last
month. Some time on the outside might straighten you
out.

Quote: Buzzard

The lone wolf is often made by challenging the Alpha wolf and losing. He is kicked out after losing the fight for supremacy.

Alpha wolf = EvenBob ?

Alfalfa Wolf.

Quote: EvenBob

Geez, its worse than I thought. Not only do you work
for the DarkSide, they've taken over your brain too.

Get out while you can, Dan. Thank god this is your last
month. Some time on the outside might straighten you
out.

Notice that god does not have a capitol G .

Quote: Buzzard

Notice that god does not have a capitol G .

Bob's opinion of God is what it is.

Quote: Paigowdan

Bob's opinion of God is what it is.

Bob's opinion has as much validity as the Pope's .

Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man, living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of your life. And he has a list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any, any, of these ten things, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and ash and torture where he will send you to suffere and burn and scream and cry forever and ever until the end of time!

...but he loves you.

He loves you and he needs money!

-George Carlin

Quote: Paigowdan

Alfalfa Wolf.

Retirement seems to agree with Dan ! Talk about aging like a fine wine.

Quote: Paigowdan

Some AP's do illegal stuff, when going past counting and 'flashed hole cards.

Some people named Dan do illegal stuff too. What's your point?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

[Quoting Dan: Some AP's do illegal stuff, when going past counting and 'flashed hole cards.]
Some people named Dan do illegal stuff too. What's your point?

1. Exactly what illegal stuff am I doing? This accusation sounds like a character attack here to me; I'm well known as Dan here at this board. And the technique of "attacking the man instead of the argument" simply means you are out of valid arguments. Clearly.

2. The point is this: when you're going past card counting and using flashed hole cards, - you may indeed be in full-blown casino fraud illegal territory. What are you confused about here, Axiom?

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

[Quoting Dan: Some AP's do illegal stuff, when going past counting and 'flashed hole cards.]
Some people named Dan do illegal stuff too. What's your point?

1. Exactly what illegal stuff am I doing? This accusation sounds like a character attack here to me. And the technique of "attacking the man instead of the argument" simply means you are out of valid arguments. Clearly.

I never attacked you, nor did I ever claim that you did anything illegal. I simply made a true statement, which was that "some people named Dan do illegal stuff". Of course it's irrelevant; that's the point. It's about as relevant as your statement that "some APs do illegal stuff".

For pretty much any profession, you can say that "some people of that profession do illegal stuff". It's a completely irrelevant statement and does not say anything about the majority of people in that profession.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

[Quoting Dan: Some AP's do illegal stuff, when going past counting and 'flashed hole cards.]
Some people named Dan do illegal stuff too. What's your point?

1. Exactly what illegal stuff am I doing? This accusation sounds like a character attack here to me. And the technique of "attacking the man instead of the argument" simply means you are out of valid arguments. Clearly.

I never attacked you, nor did I ever claim that you did anything illegal. I simply made a true statement, which was that "some people named Dan do illegal stuff". Of course it's irrelevant; that's the point. It's about as relevant as your statement that "some APs do illegal stuff".

For pretty much any profession, you can say that "some people of that profession do illegal stuff". It's a completely irrelevant statement and does not say anything about the majority of people in that profession.

1. This "Dan does illegal things" claim is a crock, and you know it. I don't accept your "Oh! I was just being rhetorical here, DAN, this is a true statement, yada, yada, yada" - as an excuse. It was a Red Herring diversion, and you were also taking a shot. For that matter, I could use YOUR first name at a place that you're well known at, and state as fact "Men named Henry have molested children! 2. We've got a guy named Henry right here - take a look! So his point is therefore invalid!" - "And EVERY profession has crooks in it!" - This is just a bullshit argument technique.

2. I've worked in casinos for years, and a large percentage of casino rule breakers go into illegal territory, while some stay in legal territory - as far as state law is concern. All are "out of bounds" as far as the house rules are concerned, and are viewed in a similar prism even by blackjack Advantage Play sites themselves.

And this is right on-topic, and not a Red herring: even the site Blackjack personalities, which features John Chang prominently, lumps Blackjack cheaters into the Blackjack advantage play arena as a prominent part of their site. Take a look yourself at the above link, - or their header quote from the cheater's page, below:


-------------------------- from blackjackpersonalities.com/blackjack-cheaters.htm ----------------------------------------
Blackjack Cheaters

Is it Natural?

People have experienced pleasure from gambling long time ago. There are lots of different exciting games, offered by casinos which can found fans all over the world. Frankly speaking, the occasions of cheating at popular casino games, such as blackjack, should be treated as the natural result taking into consideration a human nature.

Your statment: "some APs do illegal things"
My statement: "some people named Dan do illegal things"

Both absolutely true. Both absolutely irrelevant. Of course my statement was stupid and meaningless; that is the point. I was using an analogy to make a point about your statement.

If you don't like my statement, maybe you should stop and consider how the APs on this site feel about your statement.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Your statment: "some APs do illegal things"
My statement: "some people named Dan do illegal things"

Both absolutely true. Both absolutely irrelevant. Of course my statement was stupid and meaningless; that is the point. I was using an analogy to make a point about your statement.

If you don't like my statement, maybe you should stop and consider how the APs on this site feel about your statement.

It is not a question of feelings, it is about presenting good arguments that are related to Casinos, Gambling, Advantage play, - and to include the views held on them. This is quite different than lobbing red herring arguments, or poorly disguished character attacks. Already we've heard right here, in relation Mr. Chang, of his "being in a good gene pool," - and he certainly wouldn't spend any time here to response to that.

John Chang and Ed Thorpe - as prominent ex-card counters - already expressed the sentiment that it is not the way to go as an occupation, even within gaming related endeavors. Chang even mention that BJ counting was a mere stepping stone within gambling AP itself. I mention that AP play is consistently against the house rules where you have to go to play, and that even some casino opportunistic play is out of bounds of the law, too. And that it is at least under one umbrella - in a view seldom seen or accepted here - that of "opportunistic casino play," as opposed to recreational casino play.

Card counters on up have to use, or at the very least know about such things as camoflage, "the police law and gambling," staying below the radar, cover plays, working with teams or "crews," being in the black book, getting caught by surveillance - and the like. I say it sounds like a suspect and unreliable career choice.

If saying this hurts feelings, causes red herring arguments, or poorly disguised character attacks as somehow valid on point arguments, then I am disappointed in some.

Quote: Paigowdan

Is it a question of feelings, or is it about presenting good arguments that are related to Casinos, Gambling, Advantage play, - and to include the views held on them? This is quite different than lobbing red herring arguments, or poorly disguished character attacks.

Good grief, Dan, it wasn't a poorly disguised (<- no 'h') character attack. No one reading this thread, thinks it was, including yourself. He was simply making a point that you don't lump all "dan's" together, just as YOU shouldn't lump all AP's together and call them all cheats, as you and the industry you represent, frequently do. Many of us do nothing other than play the game by the rules that the casino has set. If the casino doesn't like those rules, they have the ability to change them as they have in recent years. It is fair game to call players that do illegal things like mark cards, cap bets and even hole card, cheaters. You can even make a case that the team call-in approach is cheating as many casinos have signs stating no partnerships. But a player, playing alone, wagering within the set minimum and maximum wagers is not cheating. You and the industry may not like it, and you have the ability to refuse to take that players action, but stop calling it cheating and those of us that do nothing more than think, cheaters. You aren't presenting a good argument, you just come across as a big crybaby and frankly you lose any credibility you have every time you engage in this nonsense.

Quote: kewlj

Good grief, Dan, it wasn't a poorly disguised (<- no 'h') character attack. No one reading this thread things [sic: "thinks" - and later corrected by kewlj] it was, including yourself. He was simply making a point that you don't lump all "dan's" together, just as you shouldn't lump all AP's together and call them all cheats, as you and the industry you represent, frequently do.

But I didn't, you see. I actually said: some actions were legal, and some were illegal, and all are frown upon or disallowed by the house. And so I also said that in relation it makes AP seems like a poor career choice! Unwelcome IN your own store, kind of thing.

Secondly, ALL AP's are indeed lumped together under ONE catagory, namely as "casino opportunists who disobey house rules." Nothing to do with legal or illegal there by that definition under that umbrella - and it is used. And it is also a definition sometimes used - in a very honest fashion - by Blackjack advantage sites themselves. AND I kept this related to gambling, AP views, card counting as a career, etc.

Quote: kewlj

Many of us do nothing other than play the game by the rules that the casino has set.

Yes. Include me in this group, certainly.
Play by the rules? Check.
Does not were disguises? Check.
Uses real name? Check.
Does not get afraid when the phone in the pit rings? Check.
Gets income from real job with pension and health benefits? check.
Actually enjoys gambling, and not as work? Check!!!
I actually do not see anything wrong with this, and I LIVE this.

Quote: kewlj

If the casino doesn't like those rules, they have the ability to change them as they have in recent years. It is fair game to call players that do illegal things like mark cards, cap bets and even hole card cheaters. You can even make a case that the team call-in approach is cheating as many casinos have signs stating no partnerships. But a player, playing alone, wagering within the set minimum and maximum wagers is not cheating.

Not cheating in the eyes of State law. But in the eyes of the pit boss, he may view it as cheating, but so what, Really!! It would be foolish to cry about "how it looks" to the despised pit boss, anyway.

Quote: kewlj

You and the industry may not like it, and you have the ability to refuse to take that players action, but stop calling it cheating and those of us that do nothing more than think, cheaters. You aren't presenting a good argument, you just come across as a big crybaby.

First of all, it is you all here who wail or cry if someone in the pit or surveillance - or even on the Internet - views it as cheating/malfeasance/wrong-doing/opportunistic, whatever, really, like this point-of-view really means a damn thing when it is a routine business occurrence view by those who really do AP.

A back off is a back off, and how AP is viewed by those outside the AP crew should not be a cause for a concern, but instead of a regular business occurence as a point of view that exists. Some otherwise good pit boss get fired, or a gambling hall struggles, because a good team slams a table, how exactly is it supposed to be viewed? And you get backed off or 86-ed - and NOT arrested - you do look like cheaters shown the door to Mr. and Mrs. Johnny America who are visiting from Omaha. And to everyone else. Do you care? You shouldn't cry about it. But I don't view this a good career.

Quote: Paigowdan

John Chang and Ed Thorpe - as prominent ex-card counters - already expressed the sentiment that it is not the way to go as an occupation,

They're obviously your hero's and role models, but they
aren't mine. Chang for obvious reasons, and Thorp because
he sold out AP's by writing his egocentric book. I've been
saying it for years. The card counters of the time begged
him not to write it, but his swollen head over what he'd
accomplished with his computer work just begged for the
public spotlight. He couldn't stand not letting the casinos
know what he'd done, and he ruined card counting forever.

So who cares what Chang and Thorp say. They both made
their names and fortunes from the recognition they got
being connected to counting, and then tossed it aside as
being 'beneath' them. Ain't that swell....

+1 to Paigowdan -- "It's just business."

In many ways, I view APs the same way I do hackers; smart/clever dudes and dudettes, but undisciplined as far as "the big picture" is concerned. I'd trust hackers with small tasks, but not with running a moon shot.

* Got a means of support, independent of my AP -- Check.
* Do AP only for "pin money" -- Check.
* Whenever a "ploppy" wants advice, ask him for $30, tell him to go to the gift shop, buy 2 decks of cards, and then meet me in the food court -- Check.

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Quote: EvenBob

Dan, how often do you sit in a casino and lose $400
and feel great about being entertained?

Thats what I thought...

$400 is about what my budget is for 2 nights in Vegas. For that I get a night at the El Cortez, a night at Harrah's, meals, all the booze I care to drink (and it's a LOT. Enough to kill a lesser man...), a weekend of entertainment, and a small shot at the jackpot. This is a VERY cheap vacation my friend.

Quote: GH

+1 to Paigowdan -- "It's just business."

In many ways, I view APs the same way I do hackers; smart/clever dudes and dudettes, but undisciplined as far as "the big picture" is concerned. I'd trust hackers with small tasks, but not with running a moon shot.

* Got a means of support, independent of my AP -- Check.
* Do AP only for "pin money" -- Check.
* Whenever a "ploppy" wants advice, ask him for $30, tell him to go to the gift shop, buy 2 decks of cards, and then meet me in the food court -- Check.

Exactly. I can dig it. Dan. :)

Isn't thinking you're or saying you're an AP, nothing but a state of mind anyway?

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