John Chang MIT Interview w/Wiz on Radio
show last night. It was a very good one, all the
questions were interesting. The only thing I
disagreed with was at the very end. Chang was
putting down AP play as being 'minor league'
and not something you should aspire to because
it doessn't 'make a difference' in the world. Go
work on Wall St, he says, there you can make a
difference.
I get so tired of this kind of attitude. Most people
in the world don't 'make a difference'. Thats just
idealistic claptrap. And Chang only feels this way
because he's already done the AP thing to death.
Books and movies have been made about the MIT
team. He can now wave his hand and declare AP
as beneath him.
Being a BJ AP is not minor league. We all know all but a
tiny percentage of people who try to make real money
at it fail miserably. Chang acts like anybody can do
it, why even try, its a childish thing. Move on, make
something of yourself. The casino is no place for
serious people.
Being an AP is an honorable career. You are the one
who decides what to do with the money, if you're all
that concerned about making a difference in the world.
Chang is being disingenuous when he pigeonholes all
AP's just because he was once good at it, made his mark,
and moved on. And very arrogant, also.
Honorable? Only to those who do it.
Edward Thorpe was once asked, back when it was way more possible to be an AP, why didn't he totally devote himself to it. He said the same thing that Chang had said. Basically, that it was not a career, but more like taking advantage of a quirk of blackjack that he had discovered was exploitable. He himself saw it as becoming a mindless grind. I agree with him.
Quote: PaigowdanHe himself saw it as becoming a mindless grind.
Um.... what could be more of a mindless grind than being a blackjack dealer?
Many jobs are mindless grinds. That's why someone pays you to do them.
Basically sounds like an extension of the 'AP's don't make anything and/or contribute to society discussion'.
Quote: SOOPOOUm.... what could be more of a mindless grind than being a blackjack dealer?
No argument here, I FULLY agree, trust me. Blackjack is one of the more boring games to deal, along with three card poker; thankfully, craps and poker-based games are more interesting.
Quote: SOOPOOMany jobs are mindless grinds. That's why someone pays you to do them.
Yes, and that was exactly Ed Thorpe's point: many jobs are mindless. You move on from grind jobs if you can, and have the resources or wherewithal.
Quote: Paigowdan
Honorable? Only to those who do it.
.
This applies to many professions. Garbage collectors, IRS agents,
military snipers, congressmen and senators, casino dealers, grave
diggers, slaughterhouse workers, cab drivers, cesspit honeysuckers,
diaper service workers.
You get the idea..
Quote: kewljYeah, those wall-streeter's are pretty honorable folks. Their greed almost collapsed the entire economy. They made a difference alright. Just ask the millions of folk that lost most of what they had invested for retirement, when the market tumbled due to the wall-streeter's greed. Or the folks that lost their homes. Or the parents that lost their children's college funds. Stop by a McDonald at noon and ask the 70-something year olds working behind the counter, who lost their retirement. You'll get no argument from any of these folks. The wall-streeter's made quite a difference alright. :(
Basically sounds like an extension of the 'AP's don't make anything and/or contribute to society discussion'.
You know, Chang's progression from being a card counter to being a Wall Street Wolf is something I noticed.
Quote: kewlj
Basically sounds like an extension of the 'AP's don't make anything and/or contribute to society discussion'.
Thats exactly what he said, only not in those words.
Now that he got 'his' out of AP, fame fortune and
lasting recognition, that continues to open doors to
this day, its fine to denigrate the profession. And
back it with, oh yeah, Ed Thorp feels that way to.
Like Thorp ever made his living playing BJ.
Quote: EvenBobThis applies to many professions. Garbage collectors, IRS agents,
military snipers, congressmen and senators, casino dealers, grave
diggers, slaughterhouse workers, cab drivers, cesspit honeysuckers,
diaper service workers.
You get the idea..
No. There is exceedingly little "Public Service" in being an AP player. All of the above careers provide some form of service to the general public or to the people who need these services.
Garbage Collectors = Clean Cities.
IRS agents = pay the people who work for the government or who supply the government.
Military personnel = National Defense.
Congressmen and Senators = public services, laws of the land.
Casino dealers = entertainment providers/babysitters for adults.
Grave diggers = "do not put me on the lawn."
Slaughterhouse workers = We get to eat meat.
cab drivers = got me to where I was going.
diaper service workers = clean the baby's undergaments, an important service for anyone who's been a parent.
All very important.
Card counters/AP's = what cash can I sneakily get while practicing camoflage before getting backed off. Who needs the services of the card counter? The card counter alone.
Quote: Paigowdan
Card counters/AP's = what cash can I sneakily get while practicing camoflage before getting backed off.
As opposed to dealers and casino workers who make their living at the hands of a predatory industry taking advantage of folks with gambling addictions who often also have alcohol and/or mental issues to boot. Oh wait, that's not their problem. They are just doing their job.
Quote: PaigowdanNo. There is exceedingly little "Public Service" in being an AP player. All of the above careers provide some form of service to the general public or to the people who need these services.
Garbage Collectors = Clean Cities.
IRS agents = pay the people who work for the government or who supply the government.
Military personnel = National Defense.
Congressmen and Senators = public services, laws of the land.
Casino dealers = entertainment providers/babysitters for adults.
Grave diggers = "do not put me on the lawn."
Slaughterhouse workers = We get to eat meat.
cab drivers = got me to where I was going.
diaper service workers = clean the baby's undergaments, an important service for anyone who's been a parent.
All very important.
Card counters/AP's = what cash can I sneakily get while practicing camoflage before getting backed off. Who needs the services of the card counter? The card counter alone.
Well that's not super biased or anything...
Mindless bore to card count and evade detection for bet spreading? Probably.
Some might say its a mindless bore to devise stock trading algorithms for high volume high speed stock trading systems that depend on signal transit time rather than economic value to the marketplace. Some might argue about public service there too. Right now at least there is more money in it if its done right than in Blackjack, so the advice to go where the money is quite sound. Willy Sutton knew that too.
Quote: PaigowdanNo. There is exceedingly little "Public Service" in being an AP player.
Unlike working in a casino. What public service are
you doing serving free drinks to gamblers or dealing a
fixed game to addicted players?
Quote: IbeatyouracesSupposedly providing "entertainment."
For who, the casino investors?
Quote: HunterhillEvenBob I have to agree with Johnny Chang on this one.In the overall scheme of things even being a fulltime high level BJ AP is minor league if you are talking moneywise..
Except he wasn't talking moneywise, he was talking about
'making a difference'. He's saying if you employ the Peter
Principal, that we all rise to the level of our incompetence,
and if being an AP is your level, thats pretty pathetic.
But he's an MIT grad, of course he feels that way. Its gives
you a swollen head that lasts a lifetime.
Quote: IbeatyouracesCard counting AP is chump change compared to all other forms of casino AP opportunities out there.
I agree, but even the other forms of AP are chump change compared to top people on wall street or in tech,except for a very few select highly skilled AP`s.
Quote: HunterhillI agree, but even the other forms of AP are chump change compared to top people on wall street or in tech,except for a very few select highly skilled AP`s.
Its not about MONEY! Its about doing what you want
to do as a profession, and not having people like Chang
putting you in your place by saying it doesn't make
a difference in the world. Since when is that what we're
here for? If you're doing what you love and are making
money at it to, you are making a difference. Since when
are happy people a drag on society?
Quote: HunterhillI love setting my own hours and not having to answer to anyone
Ditto.
It's been a week or two since we had one of those.
Quote: EvenBobIts not about MONEY! Its about doing what you want
to do as a profession, and not having people like Chang
putting you in your place by saying it doesn't make
a difference in the world. Since when is that what we're
here for? If you're doing what you love and are making
money at it to, you are making a difference. Since when
are happy people a drag on society?
Some people think the purpose of your existence is to contribute to society. I argue the purpose of your existence is to exist. As in, freedom, and life, is not a means to an end it, along with happiness it is the proper ends. Using your own values to determine the path you take.
It's almost like the world is slowly turning into Atlas Shrugged's America....
Who cares if APs aren't "providing a public service." Neither are casinos, bars, restaurants or indeed almost any other business. They're providing private services.... and if you're going to argue that APs don't provide ANY service, I'd also disagree, because these people are still spending their money on things which have to be produced somewhere. So there service may be as simple as "provide for my family" and if that's the goal, who are you to tell that person that they aren't contributing.
That being said, Johnny C's responses to the well-thought out questions almost put me to sleep (he seemed condescending (as alluded to by EvenBob)) and disinterested in sharing the stories that made him famous in the first place...
I think AP play (or excellent play (as people tell me my level is)) is something people should aspire to for their own motives, whether or not it contributes anything to the world
I am sure the members of the Manhattan Project were proud of their contributions to society at some point as well...
Contributions to society benefit some and burden some - as they say, some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue
Quote: Boney526Some people think the purpose of your existence is to contribute to society. I argue the purpose of your existence is to exist. As in, freedom, and life, is not a means to an end it, along with happiness it is the proper ends. Using your own values to determine the path you take.
.
Thats it, isn't it. And not have others look down their
noses at you because you aren't living life the way they
want you to. Or saying, I did that and it wasn't for me,
so it shouldn't be for you either. When I start paying you
to run my life, I'll ask your opinion. Until then, keep it
to yourself.
Quote: MakingBookI wish this would morph into another PaigowDan AP rampage thread.
It's been a week or two since we had one of those.
I always get that from you MakingBook, when I tear apart someone's arguments that you upheld as a sacred cow. The Edward Thorpe position on this speaks well enough, though.
Actually, to avoid further denying you some ground beef: .....................
Quote: IbeatyouracesSure, I agree. As EB said, its not about making millions or billions of dollars but doing what you like to do. These MIT bj players were only temorary AP's. I don't think they had any intention of doing this for the rest of their lives. If so, why go to MIT in the first place. I can teach a ten year old to do exactly what they did. No formal education is needed.
Actually, many MIT-ers didn't want it to end, with all the infighting and heat that came down on them.
Some MIT members went so far to keep the fantasy alive as to use extreme camoflage, false identities, traveling to far off destinations to try the shenanigans elsewhere (Europe, the Carribean), where they ended up begin caught and back-roomed by Andy Anderson of the early Griffin investigations outfit. Sounds like a distinguished career. Actually, a lot of the MIT undergrads blew careers in medicine and engineering with an MIT start, no less. See: Brining Down the House.
Quote: Boney526.... and if you're going to argue that APs don't provide ANY service, I'd also disagree, because these people are still spending their money on things which have to be produced somewhere. So there service may be as simple as "provide for my family" and if that's the goal, who are you to tell that person that they aren't contributing.
Al Capone can justify his income in terms of "providing my family."
Quote: Paigowdan
Al Capone can justify his income in terms of "providing my family."
Comparing being an AP to Al Capone. It was only a matter
of time before Dan went there. He really can't help himself.
John spent 6 years as a team member and 15 years as a team manager. 21 years in total. And that somehow qualifies him to say what professions are noble and which are not. What a jerk.
Mike quit a civil service job and had the balls to become the Wizard. Roger Snow worked his way to a top position at Shufflemaster but is still a straight shooter and gave a loser like me a shot at his Focus group. Geoff Hall is a stand-up guy, as is Mr. Casino Games.
Hell, I even know a guy who has a great game EZ PaiGow. He left NY to go to Vegas and deal. I am sure I am missing a lot of other people here.
But I can describe guys like John Chang in 10 words or less.
" BORN ON 3RD BASE AND THINKS HE HIT A TRIPLE " !!!
Quote: BuzzardJohn Chang is a Chinese-American who got extremely lucky in the gene pool. He was not born in a rice field. !
Holy Crap! I burst out laughing. This is the most racist
thing I've read here, and I thought I was the worst
racist on WOV. Congrats..
Quote: EvenBobComparing being an AP to Al Capone. It was only a matter
of time before Dan went there. He really can't help himself.
Of course. If the best that you can credit to Card Counting or AP play, in terms or providing public or private services as "At least I'm feathering my bed, - and that of my family!" - then you already reached Al Capone territory of justification.
Of course that was all before a certain Valentine's Day in Chicago, even though Al was in Miami meeting with the Cheif of Police at the time.
Besides... Murder, Inc. had some legal business: restaurants, tailors, and haberdasheries. Hey, the crew had to look good and eat well.
Quote: BuzzardAl Capone made donations to various charitable endeavors using the money he made from his activities, and was viewed by many to be a "modern-day Robin Hood"
Of course that was all before a certain Valentine's Day in Chicago, even though Al was in Miami meeting with the Cheif of Police at the time.
A great alibi !!!
Quote: IbeatyouracesI don't consider these people AP's
I consider them cheaters. Some misguided people call ap's cheaters.
Quote: EvenBobComparing being an AP to Al Capone. It was only a matter
of time before Dan went there. He really can't help himself.
BTW Welcome back Bob, you are my favorite troll ;)
Dan is making a very valid point, which is that there are a set of behaviors that might benefit one's family but are immoral, shameful, or otherwise negative behaviors.
Someone else pointed out that this conversation overlaps our conversation about creating value that arose from the Holy Rollers GWAE radio show. I recently reread the thread and decided that I was exceedingly impatient with you at the time. I have been thinking about ways to try to better illustrate how casinos value but AP does not. You can make a strong critique of my position by saying "Both the casino and the AP play the same games, how come when the house offers a craps game when they have the edge they are creating value in the world, but when the AP comes in and plays that same game against the house with a statistical advantage he is NOT creating value?"It probably sounds like my argument is based on the assumption that the house is good but AP are bad, but I assure you that is not the case. A couple of thoughts:
Let's say a card counter makes about $100 an hour in EV and plays 8 hours a day. Everybody involved would be better off if the casino just mailed the AP a check for $800 a day instead of making him sit there and actually play. From the casinos point of view, he is taking a seat that could be generating income, he may be consuming their alcohol, eating at their restaurants on the house, etc. My understanding (correct me if I am wrong) is that most AP do not view gambling as fun or exciting, the way us suckers experience it, but rather they develop a leather ass grinding it out. It is a job, possibly a boring one at that. The AP would be better off just getting mailed a check and he could use that 8 hours a day to be productive at a real job, write a book, excercise, etc. The same is not the case for me. Now ignore the fact that I have the possibility of winning. I expect to lose a couple hundred bucks each time I go to Vegas but I really do get something for my time at the machines or the tables. It is far more fun than watching TV or a movie, or other forms of leisure. I consider myself better off losing $400 gambling in a weekend in Vegas than simply mailing them a check for, say, $200, and staying home. This proves that, at least in my mind, there is more than $200 value in the live games and machines offered by the casino. This example is not hypothetical, either, people regularly make the trek to the casino with the full knowledge that they have the short end of the bet.
He has a real job. Just because you equate it with " honey dipping" does not make it less real !
Quote: bigfoot66I consider myself better off losing $400 gambling in a weekend in Vegas than simply mailing them a check for, say, $200, and staying home. This proves that, at least in my mind, there is more than $200 value in the live games and machines offered by the casino. This example is not hypothetical, either, people regularly make the trek to the casino with the full knowledge that they have the short end of the bet.
And somebody once said, there's a sucker born
every minute. Its easier to be a member of the
herd when you have a herd mentality, isn't it.
Quote: EvenBobAnd somebody once said, there's a sucker born
every minute. Its easier to be a member of the
herd when you have a herd mentality, isn't it.
Herd mentality? I'm the lone wolf at this place.
