Obamacare
The reality is that his most of his major acts as president are difficult to judge effectively in the present and their effects will only be realized decades later. Confusingly by that point dozens of other choices will have been made which further obscure things.
Quote: azduffmanA huge problem is Obama never stopped campaigning. He never wanted to start governing, which is far harder. But when you keep on beating on the other party day in and day out they will not work with you because they decide no matter what they do you are going to beat on them.
You could probably say the same about anyone else in the Senate and Congress. All that matters is the next election cycle. That's why the congress' approval rating is 13% (with Republicans approval sitting at 17%). Americans want to see results that are good for them.
Democrats and Republicans both see the implementation of ObamaCare as a complete mess and while Democrats in general can see the benefits of the program despite the costs. And there are benefits. But there are plenty of problems right now. For me, if true (read: FORCED) competition was encouraged as part of the AHA, that would be a driver to cut prices. The lack of a mandate to cut prices to me puts ObamaCare in the fiscal toilet not just for the treasury, but for most individual Americans as well.
Quote: boymimboYou could probably say the same about anyone else in the Senate and Congress. All that matters is the next election cycle. That's why the congress' approval rating is 13% (with Republicans approval sitting at 17%). Americans want to see results that are good for them.
Democrats and Republicans both see the implementation of ObamaCare as a complete mess and while Democrats in general can see the benefits of the program despite the costs. And there are benefits. But there are plenty of problems right now. For me, if true (read: FORCED) competition was encouraged as part of the AHA, that would be a driver to cut prices. The lack of a mandate to cut prices to me puts ObamaCare in the fiscal toilet not just for the treasury, but for most individual Americans as well.
The costs are going to be huge. Obamacare was "sold" as being revenue neutral. Several tricks were done to make this happen, such as counting revenue for the entire first 10 years but not counting all the costs. Sharps will remember this is what sunk Global Crossing. But anyone who believes a CBO cost estimate on health care is, well lets just say if you believe the estimate you will believe me when I say the Field Bet is a good bet because there are 17 ways to win.
History has shown that you cannot mandate price reductions, though they could mandate more competition. But two issues prevent that. First is in modern times Congress seems to think every bill needs to be a 1,000+ page "omnibus" bill. A bunch of smaller bills over time would do a better job. Second is the best way to do it would have been let the states figure it out. Just as they did with wellfare reform in the early 1990s. THen when we saw what worked the Feds could do it on a bigger scale.
Quote: AZDuffmanThe costs are going to be huge. Obamacare was "sold" as being revenue neutral. Several tricks were done to make this happen, such as counting revenue for the entire first 10 years but not counting all the costs. Sharps will remember this is what sunk Global Crossing. But anyone who believes a CBO cost estimate on health care is, well lets just say if you believe the estimate you will believe me when I say the Field Bet is a good bet because there are 17 ways to win.
History has shown that you cannot mandate price reductions, though they could mandate more competition. But two issues prevent that. First is in modern times Congress seems to think every bill needs to be a 1,000+ page "omnibus" bill. A bunch of smaller bills over time would do a better job. Second is the best way to do it would have been let the states figure it out. Just as they did with wellfare reform in the early 1990s. THen when we saw what worked the Feds could do it on a bigger scale.
The CBO publishes estimates that could go either way. For example, CBO estimated that Medicare Part D would cost $88 billion in 2012, but it actually cost $47 billion.
Alot has been said that the extra money and security put into the hands of low income Americans will go back into the economy. Certainly, that logic makes sense. Low income Americans will spend every cent they make.
You have to love this stuff!
"Howard of Covered California admitted it was responsible but said, 'It really isn’t feasible for Covered California or any entity to check thousands upon thousands of doctors to make sure that the information that they are providing is accurate.' "
Really? We are not talking outdated information here, we are talking about brand new coverage. And if you are not making sure the information you provide is correct, what on earth is the exchange paying employees to do?
47% of the population needs to wake up and realize they need to be careful what they wish for because they just might get it.
Quote: Dicenor33I've seen a flyer: stop China from harvesting human organs. Forget about the Obamacare, now you can go into a Chinatown and buy yourself a brand new kidney for $10.95.
10.95 seems about right for a used kidney……Is it possible to get a brand new kidney?
Quote: Dicenor33I've seen a flyer: stop China from harvesting human organs. Forget about the Obamacare, now you can go into a Chinatown and buy yourself a brand new kidney for $10.95.
The problem is an hour later you need another kidney. My sister needs a liver. I'm going to give her one. I can always get by with one liver.
Quote: AZDuffmanCalifornia Obamacare exchange has to remove provider list.
You have to love this stuff!
"Howard of Covered California admitted it was responsible but said, 'It really isn’t feasible for Covered California or any entity to check thousands upon thousands of doctors to make sure that the information that they are providing is accurate.' "
Really? We are not talking outdated information here, we are talking about brand new coverage. And if you are not making sure the information you provide is correct, what on earth is the exchange paying employees to do?
47% of the population needs to wake up and realize they need to be careful what they wish for because they just might get it.
I saw that news report locally here on tv. Some guy picked a plan, payed for it, and then he chose doctor after doctor and when he called to make an appt...was told they did not participate. Meanwhile he selected the plan and paid his premium, because he likes the available doctors.
Obamacare makes the assumption that doctor care is interchangeable. They insist that people dont get attached to their doctors. They insist that doctors are just robotic interchangeable pieces that should come and go out of the lives of people. Obamacare places no value on "continuity of medical care" where it has been shown that people who keep their same group of doctors and specialists over time...are better off than those that change
Quote: LarrySThey insist that doctors are just robotic interchangeable pieces that should come and go out of the lives of people.
Docs are as different as night and day. The one I
had before my present one was from Poland. He
didn't go to medical school until he was 40 and came
here in his 50's to practice medicine. He was terrible.
He was also an alcoholic (did I mention he was from
POLAND) and he pulled a gun on his wife in a drunken
rage and was arrested, lost his medical license, and
was deported back to the land of vodka.
Based on the last five years, the refusal of the majority even to consult with their rivals appears to be more than farfetched.Quote: endermikeUltimately there can exist a "hostile minority" which may be unwilling to work with someone. Sometimes that is a good thing, sometimes not, only time will tell.
Quote: SanchoPanzaBased on the last five years, the refusal of the majority even to consult with their rivals appears to be more than farfetched.
What lefties do not realize it the US System was designed so it would be hard to pass laws and get things done. This was done so the majority would have to come to the minority and work together. Obama had one of those rare times in US History where he could get things done with just his own party. So he sent an "up yours" card to the GOP.
When he needed them they rightly said, "you pissed in the well, so now you get to drink from it." Instead of trying to mend ties Obama just keeps trying a Hail Mary of regaining control.
Of course Kennedy was on his deathbed until he actually died and Kirk didn't come in until September 25th, 2009. So, at best you are looking at 134 days of "supermajority". And the Senate only sat for 24 days during that time.
So much for "up yours".
I think the GOP said "up yours" to Obama even before Obama was inauguarated. The GOP dinner the night before Obama's inauguration reported in Draper's book illustrates that.
Quote: boymimboExcept you're wrong. At best, Obama's "supermajority" lasted from July 7, 2009 (when Franken was sworn in) until February 2010. But of course, things went on in that six month period. Obama couldn't send the "up yours card" until he actually had the supermajority in September 2009.
Even that is more than any POTUS had for his party in the last 50 years. And if you cannot get something done with 58 Senators the problem is with you and not the other party. He had a supermajority and still couldn't get things done.
Put in a more simple way, Obamacare passed with only Democrat support. LIBERALS OWN IT. End of story.
Quote:I think the GOP said "up yours" to Obama even before Obama was inauguarated. The GOP dinner the night before Obama's inauguration reported in Draper's book illustrates that.
You act like no party ever worked against the other party's POTUS. The point is Obama has no aptitude for anything but working as a partisan with a party in power. An adept leader would not tell the other side to go sit in back of the bus then expect cooperation. His problems are of his own making.
Quote: AZDuffman
Put in a more simple way, Obamacare passed with only Democrat support. LIBERALS OWN IT. End of story.
And that was the plan. Repub's knew it was a crappy
plan and was doomed to fail, and when it did it would
be a big tool in defeating the Left in an election. Like
the one coming in Nov. In a recent poll only 8% of
those who are signed up for Obamacare look at it
in a positive light. That's abysmal..
+10Quote: AZDuffmanPut in a more simple way, Obamacare passed with only Democrat support. LIBERALS OWN IT. End of story.
The sad part though is that libs will probably be able to convince low information voters that Obamacare's failures are because of Republicans. *headshake*
gives you a box of cat turds for your birthday.
Very quickly you'll just throw the box away
without opening it and stop inviting Aunt Nutso
to your party. That's what voters will do in Nov.
Remember, the big expert on Obamacare said:
'We have to pass this bill to find out what's in it'.
We have to open this box to find out it's full of
cat turds.
Quote: EvenBobVery quickly you'll just throw the box away
without opening it and stop inviting Aunt Nutso
to your party. That's what voters will do in Nov.
I pray that you're right about that. (I'd LOVE to be wrong about the low information voters!)
Actually, though, I do think Republicans will probably do very well in the midterm elections. Maybe even win the Senate. Unfortunately, the low information voters will come out in full force in 2016, to my dismay.
Quote: AZDuffmanEven that is more than any POTUS had for his party in the last 50 years. And if you cannot get something done with 58 Senators the problem is with you and not the other party. He had a supermajority and still couldn't get things done.
Put in a more simple way, Obamacare passed with only Democrat support. LIBERALS OWN IT. End of story.
You act like no party ever worked against the other party's POTUS. The point is Obama has no aptitude for anything but working as a partisan with a party in power. An adept leader would not tell the other side to go sit in back of the bus then expect cooperation. His problems are of his own making.
Yes, ObamaCare passed with only Democrate support. Why is that a suprise.
Obama never said that the Republicans have to sit in the back of the bus. That is FoxNews bull. You can factcheck it if you want.
Quote: Beethoven9thI pray that you're right about that. (I'd LOVE to be wrong about the low information voters!)
Actually, though, I do think Republicans will probably do very well in the midterm elections. Maybe even win the Senate. Unfortunately, the low information voters will come out in full force in 2016, to my dismay.
Yes, Republicans will come to the polls in droves, including you.
Quote: boymimboYes, Republicans will come to the polls in droves, including you.
Too bad low information voters don't vote Republican. lol
Quote: boymimbo
Obama never said that the Republicans have to sit in the back of the bus.
He said this in 2010:
"we can't have special interests sitting shotgun. We gotta have middle class families up in front. We don't mind the Republicans joining us. They can come for the ride, but they gotta sit in back."
It was Sen. John Cornyn who misquoted Obama, not
FoxNews. He added 'bus' to the quote.
Quote: EvenBobHe said this in 2010:
"we can't have special interests sitting shotgun. We gotta have middle class families up in front. We don't mind the Republicans joining us. They can come for the ride, but they gotta sit in back."
It was Sen. John Cornyn who misquoted Obama, not
FoxNews. He added 'bus' to the quote.
Thank you EB. Of course, if you listened to Glenn Beck back in '10, you'd think it'd be the bus.
Actual Obama quotes:
Quote: POTUS, 10/23/10, MinnesotaAnd we've been pushing that car, pushing it, pushing it, pushing it. The whole time the Republicans have been standing on the sidelines. They've been looking down, fanning themselves, sipping on a Slurpee. Kicking dirt down into the ditch. Kicking dirt in our faces. But we kept on pushing. Finally we got this car up on level ground. And, yes, it's a little beat up. It needs to go to the body shop. It's got some dents; it needs a tune-up. But it's pointing in the right direction. And now we've got the Republicans tapping us on the shoulder, saying, we want the keys back.
You can't have the keys back. You don't know how to drive. You can ride with us if you want, but you got to sit in the backseat. We're going to put middle-class America in the front seat. We're looking out for them. I mean, you have noticed, when you want to go forward, what do you do with your car? You put it in "D." If you want to go backwards, what do you do? You put it in "R." I don't want to go backwards. I'm going forwards, with all of you.
Quote: POTUS, 10/10/10, same analogyPhiladelphia, they can't have the keys back. They don't know how to drive. They don't know how to drive. They can ride with us if they want, but they got to get in the back seat. Because we want to go forward. We don't want the special interests riding shotgun. We want working families, middle-class families, up front. They're our priority.
Quote: POTUS, 10/25/10, Rhode Island, same analogyWe can't have special interests sitting shotgun. You know, we got to have middle-class families up in front. We can't -- we don't mind the Republicans joining us. They can come for the ride, but they got to sit in back.
So, Glenn Beck turns the analogy into a race issue, when is then picked up by Hannity, and then of course, Fox "fair and balanced" News twists it into:
Come on guys, can't you think for yourselves??? I can't combat EvenBob. He makes up analogies that I can't fact check. But AZ and Beethoven are clearly drinking the Roger Ailes lemonade.
Quote: boymimboThank you EB. Of course, if you listened to Glenn Beck back in '10, you'd think it'd be the bus.
Of course Obama meant the bus, do you think he meant
the back of the plane, or the back of 4 passenger sedan?
He meant the bus and everybody knew it. Beck was just
completing it for him. And Beck was a commentator, not
a news reporter. How come you never get the two confused
on CNN or MSNBC, only on Fox.
Quote: EvenBobOf course Obama meant the bus, do you think he meant
the back of the plane, or the back of 4 passenger sedan?
He meant the bus and everybody knew it. Beck was just
completing it for him. And Beck was a commentator, not
a news reporter. How come you never get the two confused
on CNN or MSNBC, only on Fox.
Of course he meant "car" because in his speeches, that's what he was clearly talking about. And there's no disclaimer at the start of a FoxNews show stating that Hannity's view does not represent FoxNews.
That's why I don't have talking points from any one source. I read a bunch, and come up with my own conclusions.
I'm negative on ObamaCare for real reasons. Obama lied about keeping one's doctors. The costs were wildly underestimated. There's no mandate to lower costs. There are positives too. These are all things that make a reasonable debate.
But when you start generalizing and bringing in "low-informational" Liberals and Romney's 47% and "back of the bus", what's the point of that? It's the typical attacks that take away from what could be a real interesting debate.
Quote: boymimboOf course he meant "car"
Gotcha!! That was easy. Of course we have no
idea what Obama was talking about, so I assume
bus and you assume car. Why is OK for you to guess
and not Beck?
Quote: EvenBobGotcha!! That was easy. Of course we have no
idea what Obama was talking about, so I assume
bus and you assume car. Why is OK for you to guess
and not Beck?
He gets to say its car since some of the quotes explicitely mention car
Quote:And we've been pushing that car, pushing it, pushing it, pushing it. The whole time the Republicans have been standing on the sidelines. They've been looking down, fanning themselves, sipping on a Slurpee. Kicking dirt down into the ditch. Kicking dirt in our faces. But we kept on pushing. Finally we got this car up on level ground. And, yes, it's a little beat up. It needs to go to the body shop. It's got some dents; it needs a tune-up. But it's pointing in the right direction. And now we've got the Republicans tapping us on the shoulder, saying, we want the keys back.
You can't have the keys back. You don't know how to drive. You can ride with us if you want, but you got to sit in the backseat. We're going to put middle-class America in the front seat. We're looking out for them. I mean, you have noticed, when you want to go forward, what do you do with your car? You put it in "D." If you want to go backwards, what do you do? You put it in "R." I don't want to go backwards. I'm going forwards, with all of you.
Explicit mention of car.
Quote: POTUS, 10/10/10
Philadelphia, they can't have the keys back. They don't know how to drive. They don't know how to drive. They can ride with us if they want, but they got to get in the back seat. Because we want to go forward. We don't want the special interests riding shotgun. We want working families, middle-class families, up front. They're our priority.
A saying normally associated with cars riding shotgun. This makes it only logical to assume he meant car since he directly said it in one quote and alluded to it in another. So can you find where he sad bus and then Becks conclusion might be equally valid until then it is natural to assume he meant car.
Quote: TwirdmanThis makes it only logical to assume
The main component of the word assume is ass. Which
is what people often make of themselves when they assume.
Quote: EvenBobThe main component of the word assume is ass. Which
is what people often make of themselves when they assume.
Seriously the guy explicitly says car in one of the quotes and says sitting shotgun in the other and you think he is talking about anything other then a car. Why would you possibly make that jump it makes no sense.
Quote: EvenBobThe main component of the word assume is ass. Which
is what people often make of themselves when they assume.
You took the words right out of my mouth!!! Of course he meant bus!
Rick Santorum disagrees.Quote: soxfanThe obamites are not just low information voters, they are downright low iq voters. And that one of the reasons why there are NO viable political solutions for America's problems. Axe not for whom the Bell Curve tolls, yo, hey hey!
Soxfan, we may not agree on anything related to baccarat, but you hit the nail on the head here!Quote: soxfanThe obamites are not just low information voters, they are downright low iq voters. And that one of the reasons why there are NO viable political solutions for America's problems. Axe not for whom the Bell Curve tolls, yo, hey hey!
He was obviously talking about "elitists" like Obama, Hillary, Bill, etc. Not the low information voters who support them like zombies.Quote: s2dbakerRick Santorum disagrees.
"The government will now exempt companies employing between 50 and 100 full-time workers from complying with the mandate that they offer employees affordable health insurance by another year, until 2016."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101393331
I'd also like your thoughts on the legality of changing a law passed by Congress and signed into law by the President (oh...and even upheld by John and the Supremes for good measure) as we go.
Me? I don't think it is working very well and I think it will not end up being a success. I'm not rooting for failure because the cost of the failure will be huge, but it looks a lot more like it will fail than it will succeed from what we have seen.
I don't think the idea of passing laws is to implement them when we feel like doing so; if they have dates in them, we should implement them as written. If that is a bad idea, go back to Congress and fix it.
Not very likely. This time, Congress lacks the excuse that it doesn't have the foggiest idea of what's in the law, to paraphrase the obtuse speaker at the time.Quote: RonCI don't think the idea of passing laws is to implement them when we feel like doing so; if they have dates in them, we should implement them as written. If that is a bad idea, go back to Congress and fix it.
Quote: RonCRemind me again of just how well this Obamacare thing is working...
"The government will now exempt companies employing between 50 and 100 full-time workers from complying with the mandate that they offer employees affordable health insurance by another year, until 2016."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101393331
I'd also like your thoughts on the legality of changing a law passed by Congress and signed into law by the President (oh...and even upheld by John and the Supremes for good measure) as we go.
Me? I don't think it is working very well and I think it will not end up being a success. I'm not rooting for failure because the cost of the failure will be huge, but it looks a lot more like it will fail than it will succeed from what we have seen.
I don't think the idea of passing laws is to implement them when we feel like doing so; if they have dates in them, we should implement them as written. If that is a bad idea, go back to Congress and fix it.
People will die over this. People are losing their continuity of care as we speak. Someone who had a team of doctots ike, urologist, cardiologis, and general practitioner working together to stabilize a person health are no longer working together. People are forced to change doctors, and it all starts out as new patients with new specialists and new general practitioner. When this occurs....things fall thru the cracks, some nuances of the case are lost in the shuffel...a poor decision is made and people die. Will the famly ever know what really caused the death? Nope. They will know a cause of death was a stroke...but they will have no idea if it would have been prevented if the original team was together. No one talks about "continuity" of care. Its huge. You can have greatly qualified doctors..but if you cant keep them and have to replace them at the drop of a hat....it leads to poorer results.
As the healthcare system getsbad press via obamacare, the healthcare system will no longer attract the brightest and the best..as these people will go elsewhere ..where there is better money and less govt intervention. So obamacare will adversely affect healthcare now and also going into the future.
Hopefully, all of their members are low information voters who are getting what they deserve...
Quote: RonCRemind me again of just how well this Obamacare thing is working...
"The government will now exempt companies employing between 50 and 100 full-time workers from complying with the mandate.
This is the very mandate the Right wanted to
delay and Obama said he would not sign it
if it came before him. They're desperate now
at what they're seeing in the sign up numbers,
not even close to enough young and healthy
are enrolled to support the program, and it's
going down like the Titanic. This is the 27th
thing Obama has changed in the law, and there's
no end in sight.
Quote: Beethoven9thGym memberships add Obamacare tax
Hopefully, all of their members are low information voters who are getting what they deserve...
Yeah, except Beethoven, this tax went into effect on July 1, 2010!!!! March 24, 2010 story on CNN.com.
Talk about low-information... maybe you can find the poll that shows (back in 2012) that 78% don't care about the tax and that salon owners haven't seen a dent on their business.
PlanetFitness is screwing over its members and using ACA as an excuse, as they've been paying the 10% excise tax since 2010.... not to mention that tanning beds raises the risk of skin cancer.
Some republicans think the tax is racist, like Ted Yoho (in 2013) and Doc Thompson (in 2010). But I thought part of the low information voter group didn't need to use tanning beds...
What's even more interesting is that Planet Fitness is exempt from this tax:
Quote: IRSExemptions: The tax does not apply to spray-on tanning services, topical creams and lotions or to phototherapy services performed by a licensed medical professional on his or her premises. There is also an exemption for "qualified physical fitness facilities” that meet specific criteria and offer tanning as an incidental service to members without a separately identifiable fee.
So this story is totally debunked and is leaving me scratching my head.
Look! Navy Pier is under attack!
Apparently, you didn't read the first line of the article you linked to. lol!Quote: boymimboYeah, except Beethoven, this tax went into effect on July 1, 2010!!!!
Quote:The Obama administration is turning up the heat on tanning salons across the country with the passage of its new health care bill.
You can post your own facepalm pic and direct it at yourself.
Duh! Read the STORY!Quote: boymimboDuh! Read the date of the story!
The article I linked to stated that the tax was part of the implementation of the ACA, which was true!Quote: boymimbo's story:The Obama administration is turning up the heat on tanning salons across the country with the passage of its new health care bill.
(2) Planet Fitness is exempt from the tax.
(3) Therefore, Planet Fitness' charge has nothing to do with ACA. They are lying to their members.
Corporate greed.
That's just your own interpretation of the tax laws. Unless you're a tax attorney or something, your interpretations have about as much worth as mine (which is NONE).Quote: boymimbo(2) Planet Fitness is exempt from the tax.
Anyway, glad to see that you backtracked on your initial comment. ;)
Quote: EvenBobGotcha!! That was easy. Of course we have no
idea what Obama was talking about, so I assume
bus and you assume car. Why is OK for you to guess
and not Beck?
We have the most racially divisive, bigoted president in the history of our nation. Of course he was talking about the back of the bus.
Quote: anonimussWe have the most racially divisive, bigoted president in the history of our nation. Of course he was talking about the back of the bus.
Again the quote mentioned both car directly and riding shotgun so how does that refer to a bus. Second seriously what is with the hyperbole you are honestly arguing that Obama is more racially divisive and bigoted then pre Civil War era presidents like Andrew Jackson. Or even post civil war pre civil rights act presidents.
Obama has a lot of negatives but don't pretend that the hyperbole you spew is anywhere near true.
