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EvenBob
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July 24th, 2012 at 3:09:39 PM permalink
How many new casinos have to open in the US before
the saturation point is reached. It seems like a couple
open somewhere every month. Massachusetts has $2
billion worth of casinos opening in the next few years
now that they've been approved. There has to be a point
where there will be too many and some start to fail.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ibeatyouraces
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July 24th, 2012 at 3:14:44 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
OneAngryDwarf
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July 24th, 2012 at 3:36:12 PM permalink
I think it's already started to happen in some places. With the opening of casinos in southwestern PA, Cleveland, and soon-to-be Columbus, the WV casinos--whose customer base drew from all three areas--have been rendered obsolete. I expect one or the other to shut down completely any day now, or at least substanstially downsize their operations as the local population just isn't large or economically viable enough to keep them going the way they are.

People have been saying AC will lose a casino or two, but I think they'll stay strong as the operators continue to differentiate the properties and find a niche for each one--look at the Atlantic Club, which has really turned things around by focusing on low-rollers as a nice alternative to Borgata. I like the current variety of owners in AC right now, too...a nice alternative to the Caesars/MGM duopoly in Vegas.
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight... I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
buzzpaff
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July 24th, 2012 at 3:44:30 PM permalink
The real loss to Brick and Mortar casinos will be when online gambling is legalized. One need only to look at the empty grandstands at horse race tracks everywhere !
24Bingo
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July 24th, 2012 at 3:51:07 PM permalink
Aren't the big hubs, like Vegas and Atlantic City, already pretty dog-eat-dog? I think there's your answer.

Regardless, there's a lot of talk about Foxwoods and Mohegan likely shrinking in the coming years.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
EvenBob
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July 24th, 2012 at 3:58:35 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

The real loss to Brick and Mortar casinos will be when online gambling is legalized.



Don't hold your breath. Dem's should have done it
when they had both the house and senate. There's
no interest there now, and when Romney takes office,
it will be years away again. Which is fine with me.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
buzzpaff
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July 24th, 2012 at 4:02:54 PM permalink
Bob your opinion has a lot of validity. It's just I can not believe the politicians will let revenue streams remain untapped much longer !
100xOdds
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July 24th, 2012 at 4:08:29 PM permalink
wished there were casinos in Va, even electronic only ones.

i hate driving an hr to md to play e-craps.
or driving an hr to charlestown, wv to play live poker. (i refuse to play real craps (dealers) at 2x odds.)

md casino sent me a couple of promos for Aug:
- $30 every week
- mystery promo ($10 - 1000) every sun

guess what, i'm going to be stopping by every Sun just to load them onto acct.
then end of Aug play at least $160 worth of comps on e-craps.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
EvenBob
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July 24th, 2012 at 4:13:30 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Bob your opinion has a lot of validity. It's just I can not believe the politicians will let revenue streams remain untapped much longer !



Its more to do with their core constituants, Christian voters,
opposing casinos. The ones around here went apeshit trying
to keep the local casino from opening. They stalled it for 12 years.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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July 24th, 2012 at 4:21:44 PM permalink
I hope the worm turns and some form of groundswell / popular movement gains traction seeking a limitation on casino gambling in America.

There is an increasingly large social cost to it, which We, the People have to absorb.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
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July 24th, 2012 at 4:33:58 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I hope the worm turns and some form of groundswell / popular movement gains traction seeking a limitation on casino gambling in America.



Never gonna happen. The groundswell is in the other direction.
Casino's can't open fast enough. Gambling has been hugely
popular throughout human history, its not going anywhere. In
1961 Robert Heinlein wrote a book about a religion of the future
that embraced gambling, its churches had casinos. I don't think
we're all that far away from that concept.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
OneAngryDwarf
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July 24th, 2012 at 4:50:44 PM permalink
Heck, the Catholic churches around here thrive on Bingo year-round and gambling games at annual church festivals...no specific numbers, but it's gotta be at least 50% of their revenue.

I agree that gambling should be limited to within a person's means, but it should be on personal self-control level. We tried getting rid of the "social costs" of alcohol consumption before, and we all know how well that worked out. Same thing would happen if gambling were illegalized, people would go back to gambling in underground, Mob-controlled, very possibly rigged casinos, and that would have an even higher social cost.
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight... I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
SanchoPanza
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July 24th, 2012 at 7:43:08 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

The real loss to Brick and Mortar casinos will be when online gambling is legalized. One need only to look at the empty grandstands at horse race tracks everywhere !


Offtrack betting, including at venues like betting parlors and casino books, are also factors in that.
SanchoPanza
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July 24th, 2012 at 7:44:39 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

There has to be a point where there will be too many and some start to fail.


Like Trump, Playboy, the Sands and the Stardust?
brianparkes
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July 24th, 2012 at 10:47:13 PM permalink
Casinos may be opening when a new market opens up for them (the states that recently allowed them), but they will soon reach a point of over-saturation and a lot of them will close. That is what has happened in WA state with the cardrooms. 6 years ago there were 100 of them, but now it is down to 60. Of course in this scenario they are competing with the Tribal casinos that can offer Craps/Roulette/Slots (well electronic pull tabs, but they play the same way for all the customer is aware).
24Bingo
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July 24th, 2012 at 11:18:36 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I hope the worm turns and some form of groundswell / popular movement gains traction seeking a limitation on casino gambling in America.

There is an increasingly large social cost to it, which We, the People have to absorb.



This is an interesting place to be if you're opposed to casino gambling.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
weaselman
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July 25th, 2012 at 4:14:07 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Its more to do with their core constituants, Christian voters,
opposing casinos.


They also can't use computers for the most part, so they don't care about online gambling.
The reasons for online gambling being "illegal" (it actually isn't, as we all know) are concerns about fraud and money laundering, nothing to do with the perceived immorality of gambling.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
texasplumr
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July 25th, 2012 at 7:32:14 AM permalink
I just wish they would start saturating Texas with casinos. Getting tired of spending all my money in Louisiana. You drive through any casino parking garage there and 80% of the plates are from Texas. Of course, that most likely won't happen in my lifetime.
Stupid is a choice
fremont4ever
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July 25th, 2012 at 8:14:29 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

How many new casinos have to open in the US before
the saturation point is reached. It seems like a couple
open somewhere every month. Massachusetts has $2
billion worth of casinos opening in the next few years
now that they've been approved. There has to be a point
where there will be too many and some start to fail.



I may be in the minority, but I think the saturation point is a long way off. A few areas look like they have too many casinos, but there are big areas - even whole states - that have little or no casino coverage. There will be some cannibalization, but most of them should be able to survive the competition by adjusting to it. The legalization of online gambling could change things, but (a) it will still have weaknesses compared to B&M casinos, and (b) full legalization is likely some time off.
SOOPOO
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July 25th, 2012 at 8:28:10 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

How many new casinos have to open in the US before
the saturation point is reached. There has to be a point
where there will be too many and some start to fail.



There are too many restaurants.
There are too many golf courses.
There are too many plumbers.
There are too many etc....

The strong will succeed, the weak will fail.
Casinos will be no different.
pacomartin
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July 25th, 2012 at 9:18:46 AM permalink
Quote: texasplumr

I just wish they would start saturating Texas with casinos. Getting tired of spending all my money in Louisiana. You drive through any casino parking garage there and 80% of the plates are from Texas. Of course, that most likely won't happen in my lifetime.




You probably know that Tilman J. Fertitta from Houston is cousin's with the Fertitta's in Las Vegas that run station casinos. They are descendants of the mafia families that used to run the Balinese room in Galveston up until the 1950's. Tilman bought the Golden Nugget in downtown Las Vegas to get some experience with the business. He wants gambling in Texas much more than you do.



Double or Nothing is a book by one of the two owners of the Golden Nugget. Tim and Tom bought the Golden Nugget from MGM and resold it within a year to Tilman Fertitta. The book is about the joys of owning a casino in your early 30's, borrowing money from celebrities, almost losing your shirt, and finally making a $100 million killing in little more than one year. At least read the free sections of the book on the website.
texasplumr
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July 25th, 2012 at 9:50:09 AM permalink
I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the political climate surrounding this issue. Bills are submitted at every legislature and they die in committee. Our Governor is on record as saying he'll never sign it and for some reason, bozos keep voting for him.


Of course, this is all conjecture on my part. We'll have to see what happens in the next legislative session. And then it will have to be sold to the voters state wide. I'm not holding my breath.
Stupid is a choice
Mission146
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July 25th, 2012 at 10:27:54 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

There are too many restaurants.
There are too many golf courses.
There are too many plumbers.
There are too many etc....

The strong will succeed, the weak will fail.
Casinos will be no different.



I agree with this simple and true statement.

The laws of Supply and Demand aren't going to suddenly suspend themselves for the benefit of casinos. Further, even in a market at capacity there is often an entity that thinks it can come in and survive merely by offering something new and different, Hell, it usually doesn't even have to be different, just new.

The simple matter is that it doesn't matter what your edges, rakes or holds are, you still need to have people walking through the door to have any chance. When people stop walking through the door, or even more simply, when the combined revenue of those who walk through the door does not exceed your expenses, you are put on a long path to closure unless you do something different or carve out a niche.

I believe that you can see it about to happen with Wheeing Island Casino and maybe Mountaineer. Like pincers, you have The Meadows and The Rivers to the East and you are going to have Hollywood to the West in Columbus. I don't see WI attracting anyone outside of a forty mile radius ever again, maybe people that go to Oglebay for golf, but no tourists beyond that...The game they are playing is to see if the locals can sustain them.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
texasplumr
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July 25th, 2012 at 2:19:31 PM permalink
Quote: texasplumr

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the political climate surrounding this issue. Bills are submitted at every legislature and they die in committee. Our Governor is on record as saying he'll never sign it and for some reason, bozos keep voting for him.


Of course, this is all conjecture on my part. We'll have to see what happens in the next legislative session. And then it will have to be sold to the voters state wide. I'm not holding my breath.



Of course I forgot to mention the lobby from Louisiana who spend big bucks buying support to keep casinos out of Texas. After all, they want to protect their cash flow!

Guess we'll see what happens in January when the legislature is open for business again.
Stupid is a choice
EvenBob
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July 25th, 2012 at 4:18:26 PM permalink
In 2007, there was one casino 90min from my house.
Today there are 4 less than or about an hour away
and more are coming. All of these are doing far better
than expected and are paying their debt down in record
time. Each employs hundreds of people and have been
a real boon to their communities. The crime wave that
was supposed to appear with each new opening never
happened, imagine that.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MakingBook
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July 25th, 2012 at 4:33:14 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The crime wave that was supposed to appear
with each new opening never happened, imagine that.



Yep. And the people that predicted the crime wave are probably pissed off.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
buzzpaff
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July 25th, 2012 at 4:46:43 PM permalink
Crime rate goes down as there as less people to rob after the casinos are done with them.
MrV
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July 25th, 2012 at 4:51:24 PM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

This is an interesting place to be if you're opposed to casino gambling.



I am not opposed to casino gambling; that is NOT what I said.
"What, me worry?"
buzzpaff
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July 25th, 2012 at 4:57:57 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I am not opposed to casino gambling; that is NOT what I said.




" There is an increasingly large social cost to it, which We, the People have to absorb. "
Pardon me, I must have misunderstood.
98Clubs
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July 25th, 2012 at 7:10:23 PM permalink
I will point this out, those magnificent buildings are not ENTIRELY financed by the losses of the patrons/matrons. They are partly financed by the FUTURE loses of such Customers, and therein lies the problem re: social costs. Nevertheless, the degenerates/addicted eventually go broke. Social preoblem there, ehh?
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
98Clubs
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July 25th, 2012 at 7:12:51 PM permalink
Separately, I wonder if Poker can be legalized in Texas... no wait, then taxes would have to be collected after them good ol' boy business meetings. Nevermind.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
buzzpaff
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July 25th, 2012 at 8:57:54 PM permalink
" Nevertheless, the degenerates/addicted eventually go broke. Social preoblem there, ehh? "

Addicted were always there, bookies do not provide counseling or contribute to GA Casino's do , eh ?
MrV
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July 25th, 2012 at 10:20:54 PM permalink
As more and more people flock to the increasingly available casinos, statistically the number of problem gamblers will increase.

Just as the number of junkies increase when the accessibility to crack and heroin increases.

There will be a steep cost to pay for casinos everywhere: bankruptcy, embezzlement, failed marriages ...

Still, I like having casinos available; but then, maybe I too am on the road to addiction.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
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July 25th, 2012 at 10:47:04 PM permalink
Quote: MrV


There will be a steep cost to pay for casinos everywhere: bankruptcy, embezzlement, failed marriages ...



I've never undestood why when somebody has a problem,
its all of a sudden my problem too. I have problems, but
I keep them to myself. Maybe I'm missing something by
not whining.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
odiousgambit
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July 26th, 2012 at 12:43:46 AM permalink
The fatal glass of beer concept:

A perfectly fine citizen is doing fine until he comes across a glass of beer, whereupon he drinks it and becomes a degenerate. Had he never stepped into a saloon, he would have been an upstanding contributor to society forevermore.

Substitute casinos for beer. I don't buy it.

Might there be something to it? Maybe. Something tells me casinos make a concentration of people who are just going to be going to hell some way or another anyway.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
98Clubs
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July 26th, 2012 at 1:52:10 AM permalink
I do side with genetic weakness towards addiction, be it alcohol, tobacco, ilicit drugs, gambling, food, caffein, sex, whatever. Some folks just want the "high".
I do believe there is a genetic disposition towards it (the high).

It becomes "our" problem when some threshhold population causes undue (financial, physical, etc) damages that "our" taxes are needed to pay for (some/all) of it.
So what was once a Him/Her problem can eventually become an Us problem. The largest problem "we" have IMHO is the anarchy/fear problem associated with drug-gangs, turf wars, bad deals, lookin at my lady wrong, etc.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
MrV
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July 26th, 2012 at 8:39:55 AM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

The largest problem "we" have IMHO is the anarchy/fear problem associated with drug-gangs, turf wars, bad deals, lookin at my lady wrong, etc.



As the western world becomes increasingly secular, there are fewer institutions or beliefs to keep people "in check."

With god on the ropes, the devil ascends.
"What, me worry?"
buzzpaff
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July 26th, 2012 at 8:45:30 AM permalink
" With god on the ropes, the devil ascends. "

Where is the Spanish Inquisition when we need it? American was a much better place when Salem had Witch trials !
MrV
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July 26th, 2012 at 12:26:21 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

" With god on the ropes, the devil ascends. "

Where is the Spanish Inquisition when we need it? American was a much better place when Salem had Witch trials !



You may pine for "the good old days" of torture and burning at the stake as a means to keep people under control, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Me, I'll simply note that if people were more "connected" or "plugged into" the norms of society, there would be fewer problems

When people don't believe in the American Dream, when they don't believe in themselves, the train goes off the rails.
"What, me worry?"
98Clubs
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July 26th, 2012 at 1:44:50 PM permalink
If I would pine for the "Old Days" I'd say a few public Hangings would be in order, or at least some form of Death Penalty.
At some point (I'm not qualified, but I have my opinion) Death is in the picture, be it a small town rape, burning, torture, or in a city gangland "miss" that kills a 4-yo.
Somewhere in there most folks would say something to the effect of "If Death is all they (the perp)believe in, then give it to 'em. The rest of us have to move on, with out them ever breathing the same air, or walkin the same streets" /OT

There has been a moral breakdown, or at the least the exposure of moral weaknesses since the Information Age began. Perhaps we finally see who we really are, and who our "friends" really are.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Tiltpoul
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July 26th, 2012 at 8:47:40 PM permalink
Someone had mentioned that Texas is unlikely to have casinos (sorry, I'm too tired to go back and find the quote)...

I believe that when it's all said and done, there will only be a few states that will not have casino gambling: Hawaii, Kentucky, Nebraska, Utah. Hawaii doesn't need them as tourism is number one, and besides, if you lose your shirt on that island, you have no easy way of getting back. Kentucky will always have first interests in horse racing. Nebraska and Utah have soundly defeated resolutions to bring casinos in (though if Omaha gets much bigger, I would take them off the list too).

Texas, while a "morality state," is also a state that is too big to fail. When the budget crunch hits, and all sources are tapped out, the casinos will be there pretty quickly.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
OneAngryDwarf
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July 27th, 2012 at 3:58:36 AM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul


I believe that when it's all said and done, there will only be a few states that will not have casino gambling: Hawaii, Kentucky, Nebraska, Utah. Hawaii doesn't need them as tourism is number one, and besides, if you lose your shirt on that island, you have no easy way of getting back. Kentucky will always have first interests in horse racing. Nebraska and Utah have soundly defeated resolutions to bring casinos in (though if Omaha gets much bigger, I would take them off the list too).



I dunno...Hawaii's tourism revenue was hit pretty hard by the recession, and will be hit even harder if the double-dip occurs like many economists are forecasting. I've seen the plans for a massive casino in Honolulu...while it's obviously all just talk for now, it wouldn't surprise me if it happened. (I'm sure Boyd Gaming would push for legislation prohibiting locals from entering--gotta protect that California revenue downtown...)

You think there will be casinos in Alaska as well? The locals might be opposed to it due to environmental concerns from the increased tourist traffic. If they do get one, maybe they should build it in the middle of nowhere with no roads, just to lay claim to being the only casino in the world that is only accessible by plane!

I would definitely add South Carolina to the list of prohibition states as well. They're the only state that REPEALED gambling after previously legalizing it. Apparently a mother got addicted to barroom video poker machines down there and left her 3-year-old to bake in a hot car while she played...as long as that tragedy is fresh in everyone's mind, I don't see anyone pushing for casinos.
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight... I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
pacomartin
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July 27th, 2012 at 4:33:39 AM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

Someone had mentioned that Texas is unlikely to have casinos (sorry, I'm too tired to go back and find the quote)...

I believe that when it's all said and done, there will only be a few states that will not have casino gambling: Hawaii, Kentucky, Nebraska, Utah. Hawaii doesn't need them as tourism is number one, and besides, if you lose your shirt on that island, you have no easy way of getting back.



Hawaii may get tired of the steady stream of citizens flying to Vegas. The most persuasive argument in Pennsylvania was that people will gamble, so why give the money to another state. Utah probably only when hell freezes over.
Tiltpoul
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July 28th, 2012 at 4:54:22 AM permalink
Quote: OneAngryDwarf

I dunno...Hawaii's tourism revenue was hit pretty hard by the recession, and will be hit even harder if the double-dip occurs like many economists are forecasting. I've seen the plans for a massive casino in Honolulu...while it's obviously all just talk for now, it wouldn't surprise me if it happened. (I'm sure Boyd Gaming would push for legislation prohibiting locals from entering--gotta protect that California revenue downtown...)



That's a nice thought, but I would think if Hawaii decided to add casino gambling, they would already be in the works on it. To me, the risk of the negatives on an island away from everyone outweighs the benefits from the revenue.

Quote: OneAngryDwarf

You think there will be casinos in Alaska as well? The locals might be opposed to it due to environmental concerns from the increased tourist traffic. If they do get one, maybe they should build it in the middle of nowhere with no roads, just to lay claim to being the only casino in the world that is only accessible by plane!



This was actually typed out in my list as I was going through places that will never get it. However, I still see the appeal of bringing tourism to the state. I would put that on a list of states that it will take a VERY long time to get a casino in...

Quote: OneAngryDwarf

I would definitely add South Carolina to the list of prohibition states as well. They're the only state that REPEALED gambling after previously legalizing it. Apparently a mother got addicted to barroom video poker machines down there and left her 3-year-old to bake in a hot car while she played...as long as that tragedy is fresh in everyone's mind, I don't see anyone pushing for casinos.



Meh... those thoughts will die within a few years. South Carolina has two border states: North Carolina (who is seeking to expand gaming) and Georgia. However, Georgia will feel the pressure from Florida (if it isn't already) and Atlanta is a prime market to go after. If/when Georgia starts to move at it, SC will be quick to figure something out.

There are a lot of states where casino expansion will be slow, but I stand by my original four, and after more thought, take Nebraska off the list. TECHNICALLY, there is a casino in Nebraska, though White Cloud is in a really bad location and straddles the Kansas border. ACG lists it with Kansas, because it's so close. So Kentucky, Hawaii and Utah.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
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