N Vegas Declared Disaster Area

I mean, c'mon, N Vegas isn't Vegas, but it is, just like the Strip
is Vegas. N Vegas has lost 3000 businesses in the last 5
years? Property values are down to nothing? Where is all of this
going to end.

Does vegas need to reinvent itself again? With casinos that seem to be opening every week all over the country is it possible that Vegas will become an afterthought?

The NLV failure had many factors. The biggest is that the tax base was destroyed by the recession and they were not prepared for it. The second is that there seem to be people that think that they do not have to take a pay cut to keep their jobs because they are union even though there is no money to pay them.

The city declared themselves a disaster because otherwise they would have to pay increases in pay to their union employees. This declaration voids those contracts. This was a ploy by the city to get out of their obligations since negotiations fell apart. Otherwise they would have to layoff employees to a dangerously low level. There is also fear the state will takeover the city if they do not take drastic measures. NLV also outsourced jail services to save money.

This actually happened a few weeks ago. I guess it is just making national news. The city, county, and Henderson are in much better shape than NLV is.

NLV threatened to do this a short while (a few weeks) ago but apparently did the actual filing only recently.

Its a situation common in the USA: police and fire unions extort raises and pension obligations against a tax base unable to sustain it.

NLV admits there is no riot or civil commotion but maintains that an economic recession and erosion of a tax base is severe enough to be considered an emergency even though it is not locally caused or locally contained but is merely locally existing.

As to the palatial city hall construction, the position is that the city does not have to demonstrate past fiscal wisdom to invoke the law which focuses on the situation irrespective of fault allocation, the same way the law does not require a determination of how meritorious the rioters views are or in what manner a riot may have been sparked by governmental action. The law focuses on the existence of riot and civil commotion within a city and does not address causation of the rioting or the fact that the rioting may be very widespread and exist beyond the boundaries of the city. The sole question is the existence of an emergency within the city irrespective of its being one that is widespread and long lasting.

The emergency law is focused on an existing situation and NLV maintains that a fiscal emergency is not prohibited or excluded simply because other more impressive types of emergencies are listed, the ordinary rules of statutory construction notwithstanding.
The usual law is that a specific expression necessarily excludes a more general expression so that if all the examples listed in a statute are localized and short-lived events then an economic situation that is widespread and long lived was meant to be excluded absent specific language in the statute that the enumeration of certain examples was not meant to limit the generality of the statutory application.

This case will be watched very closely in California and Illinois where pension obligations and public service salaries cause industrial employers to flee and tax obligations come to rest on the Single Family Home Owners, many of which flee if they are economically able to, leaving a renter-occupied town of largely transients with the voting rolls full of LLCs with Florida addresses.

voting rolls full of LLCs with Florida addresses?

can you explain this?

Quote: FleaStiff

This case will be watched very closely in California and Illinois

3000 small businesses lost, thats a huge blow to city taxes.
And they won't be back, they're gone. Most cities that these
things happen to take decades to recover from, many never
do recover. People move on and the city gets a bad name and
people don't want to live there.

N Vegas has the name already, you don't want to live there,
the druggies and homeless will drive you nuts, burglaries
are off the charts, street crime is high. It sounds like Detroit
before everybody left. Casino City says there are 13 casinos
in NLV, and most of those I wouldn't go to before 2007. Now
that 3000 businesses are gone, the local traffic must be
drastically reduced. Business owners were the ones with all
the money.

Quote: 100xOdds

voting rolls full of LLCs with Florida addresses?
can you explain this?

I mean that there is a town full of tenants and the owners who vote on road assessments and zoning matters and budgets are listed as Limited Liability Companies with out of state addresses indicating the former resident-property owners have moved out of state.

Quote: FleaStiff

Its a situation common in the USA: police and fire unions extort raises and pension obligations against a tax base unable to sustain it.

And teachers' unions. Sorry, couldn't let you leave out the biggest culprit.

Cities end up like the town in Alabama that was warned
in 2005 that unless they cut back on city pensions to 60
cents on the dollar, the city would be bankrupt by 2009.
They had a meeting and it was voted down unanimously.

Just like clockwork, they declared bankruptcy in 2009
and all pensions were cancelled. Why, they were shocked
and incredulous. And there wasn't even anybody to sue.
Three years later and no money, no pensions. I'll bet
60% of something looks way better than 100% of nothing
now.

Quote: EvenBob

Where is all of this going to end.

I hate to say it is simple "the faster they rise,... ", but we are looking at the suffering of many cities or country where we could attach a superlative.

Iceland became the richest country in the world through internet banking.
Spain had the highest increase in real estate value in the world.
Ireland made the greatest change in status from impoverished European Country to post industrial powerhouse.
North Las Vegas was the fastest growing city in the country.

Quote: pacomartin

I hate to say it is simple "the faster they rise,... ",

You could be correct. Could NLV be considered a 'boom town'?
A fast rise and a meteoric fall, like Deadwood SD and Virginia
City NV. Deadwood came into being because of gold. Virginia
City had the Comstock Lode, with silver. VC had a population
at one time of 15,000, today under 1000 live there. Boom towns
never recover to what they once were. The gold in NLV was the
demand for construction jobs in the last 25 years. Those are
all gone now and won't be back. The mine is played out and the
town shrinks to a shadow of what it was.

Quote: ahiromu

And teachers' unions. Sorry, couldn't let you leave out the biggest culprit.

Yes, biggest and worst. Worst both financially and morally.

This has been seen elsewhere: California's Governor tried to do battle with public sector employees and lost.
Wisconsin's Governor tried to strip public employees of collective bargaining rights and narrowly survived an expensive recall election.

All those who vote for the Sacred Cows of Teachers, police, firemen, nurses, civil servants ... eventually will realize those super salaries and super pension benefits will be costly.

I do doubt that NLV will win but applaud their effort even though it is too little and too late.

Quote: FleaStiff

Yes, biggest and worst. Worst both financially and morally.

All those who vote for the Sacred Cows of Teachers ... eventually will realize those super salaries and super pension benefits will be costly.

Before all of you dog on teachers, please realize that in many states, teachers unions are completely useless. They aren't allowed to strike, they have little to no bargaining power to increase their salaries. And regardless of what most of you think, teaching is one of the most difficult professions, due to regulations. Most teachers would do better being paid babysitter rates ($3 per hour) per kid per hour than their current salaries.

I agree that unions can be detrimental to bargaining processes and that there are a lot of unions who abuse the system. But if you wonder why the US education system is going downhill quickly, and you want to CUT teacher's salaries and funding to the schools, you can go ahead and plan on ceding to China in the next 50 years.

I anticipate my position is in the minority on this forum, since there probably aren't a lot of teachers on this forum (I myself am not one, but the son of two).

Quote: Tiltpoul

Before all of you dog on teachers, please realize that in many states, teachers unions are completely useless. They aren't allowed to strike, they have little to no bargaining power to increase their salaries. And regardless of what most of you think, teaching is one of the most difficult professions, due to regulations. Most teachers would do better being paid babysitter rates ($3 per hour) per kid per hour than their current salaries.

I agree that unions can be detrimental to bargaining processes and that there are a lot of unions who abuse the system. But if you wonder why the US education system is going downhill quickly, and you want to CUT teacher's salaries and funding to the schools, you can go ahead and plan on ceding to China in the next 50 years.

I anticipate my position is in the minority on this forum, since there probably aren't a lot of teachers on this forum (I myself am not one, but the son of two).

I'm not sure if you're in the minority or not, Tiltpoul, but knowing what teacher's starting salaries are, I'm very much inclined to agree with you.

The great difficulty with being a teacher is that, being unable to strike, your only chance of finding more favorable working conditions is by moving to another state. The reason for this is because there are state mandated minimums for what teachers must be paid, and most school districts will generally pay that minimum or something very close to it.

They do retire very well, I think that must be admitted, but it's a long and difficult road they must travel to get to that point.

Who knows what overpaid or underpaid is... But I do know that as of this Saturday the teachers that live in my apartment complex are now at the pool full time, and will be there until September....

By the way, Governor Cuomo recently UNILATERALLY cut pension benefits to all new hires, increased the time til they are vested, raised the age at which benefits can be collected, etc.... It is quite remarkable that so little has been made of this. I can assure you had he been a REPUBLICAN governor everyone would be up in arms....

Quote: SOOPOO

Who knows what overpaid or underpaid is... But I do know that as of this Saturday the teachers that live in my apartment complex are now at the pool full time, and will be there until September....

By the way, Governor Cuomo recently UNILATERALLY cut pension benefits to all new hires, increased the time til they are vested, raised the age at which benefits can be collected, etc.... It is quite remarkable that so little has been made of this. I can assure you had he been a REPUBLICAN governor everyone would be up in arms....

I'm a hotel manager, and have been at my current hotel for nearly four years.

The average starting teacher in the State of Ohio starts at only $2,000 more (approx.) than I started at in this hotel. The starting teachers in my immediate area, however, start at about $5,000 less than I started at in this hotel. I currently make about $2,000 more than the average starting teacher in the State of Ohio. I do have a four-year degree, specifically, a Bachelor's in Economics, but I would only have needed a two-year Associate's Degree in Anything to get this job. I would also suggest that I have more job security that the average young male teacher, I find myself often worried about them being falsely accused of doing something untowardly, but there are so many who, in reality, DO something untowardly that the matter must be investigated with extreme prejudice.

They are the keys to this country's future, but unfortunately, the keys are not permitted to fit the lock the way that they should because they are forced into teaching specifically for excellent standardized tests results as opposed to exposing the students to a greater array of the Maths, Sciences, Ethics and Philosophy. I have always maintained that if you can learn Formal Logic, then you will likely be capable of self-teaching yourself anything else, with exception to possibly physical trades. Formal Logic has no place in the public education system, however, because they are supposed to be teaching actors as opposed to thinkers. Status quo. Fit perfectly within your designated paradigm, all of that stuff.

They try to squeeze a little bit more out of the gifted students, try to spend a little more time helping to develop them further in their abilities and innate knowledge when the slow pace of the class (in comparison) is holding them back, but it can't be done. The gifted student will nail the Standardized Test no matter what, so why spend more time with him? You have to teach Joey, who will graduate despite being hardly able to comprehend the verbiage on his diploma, to memorize the questions that we are expecting on this year's standardized test.

I maintain that Joey is going to be an auto mechanic, anyway, a perfectly solid high-demand profession with which there is nothing wrong, but you could be preventing the first kid from curing friggin' cancer by not developing him further. The first kid might simply decide that school is too boring and it has nothing to offer him, he, as well, may end up as an armchair Philosopher and auto mechanic.

You could prevent this, you know you could, because you're a damn good teacher. The problem is, they won't let you, because if too many of your students do poorly on the standardized test you're gone and your teaching career could well be over.

I would maintain that they are underpaid.

While unions are suing to keep exact figures secret a taxpayers organization has published estimates of salary and total pension obligation.
Example:
Corrections Lietenant: 532,000.00 and 15 million dollars.

Quote: FleaStiff

While unions are suing to keep exact figures secret a taxpayers organization has published estimates of salary and total pension obligation.
Example:
Corrections Lietenant: 532,000.00 and 15 million dollars.

a corrections lt makes 1/2mil a year and has a $15M pension?!
link?

Quote: 100xOdds

a corrections lt makes 1/2mil a year and has a $15M pension?!
link?

No, no not at all. He makes a smidgen over a half million a year but is not now drawing ANY pension at all. Its merely that his projected claim upon the pension fund will total fifteen million dollars at the time he retires, ie, it will take fifteen million dollars to fund his pension at that time.

This is a link to preliminary figures that I believe were later revised upwards:
Nevada

In addition to union problems in North Las Vegas some businesses have recently sucumbed to an onerous water surcharge imposed in the area for schemes to draw more water.

Also firemen are staggering sick calls so as to force entire stations to close.

Quote: FleaStiff

No, no not at all. He makes a smidgen over a half million a year but is not now drawing ANY pension at all. Its merely that his projected claim upon the pension fund will total fifteen million dollars at the time he retires, ie, it will take fifteen million dollars to fund his pension at that time.

This is a link to preliminary figures that I believe were later revised upwards:
Nevada

omg.. a corrections lt makes $500k/yr?!
WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

how does a mid-lvl cop make more than the president of the US?!

Quote: 100xOdds

how does a mid-lvl cop make more than the president of the US?!

Well, how many crack heads from NLV registered to vote and attended the NLV city meetings where things like this might have come up for a vote buried in fine print and boring language? The corrections union makes a demand, the city manager wants to keep his job so he approves it (particularly if he is also going to get a raise), then maybe there is a vote, maybe not but the city is stuck with the high salary and the high pension requirement. Why do you they they built the new city hall prior to the declaration.

Oh, and as to job losses. Most dump trucks are owned by their drivers who are union members. Construction ends and his business moves on to a new job site.

Quote: 100xOdds

omg.. a corrections lt makes $500k/yr?!
WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

how does a mid-lvl cop make more than the president of the US?!

I have many CO friends and live next door to a mid and max level prison. Near as I can figure, these guys got it made. Shifting is open. If you find a partner, or a pool to agree with, you can double and triple your way to working 3 or less days a week. Or, you can work 9 days in a row followed by 2 weeks off, never touching a minute of your paid time off. Half of most of these guy's days are spent napping.

I drive by the prison every day. Parking lot? New Challenger R/T, Harley, Harley, Corvette, Harley, Goldwing, '68 Camaro RS. The few I know got the boats and the bikes, snowmobiles, battalions of 4wheelers, the hunting lodge, the $30k gun collections. Talking with a close friend showed these guys really work the overtime system. Many guys working for a "$50k salary" are actually pulling down $150-$180k a year from O/T. And the pension is something I'd personally kill for. Retire at 50 making more than I do right now? Sign me up for that.

These guys have an unpleasant job, granted. But a $100k for a front line grunt?

On the other hand, you can't really underpay them since they will be on the take like in Mexico (sorry, Nareed). And, when the economy boomed in the mid 2000's, you were getting a lot of dud candidates and those with questionable backgrounds. LA Sheriff's Department had to let people in with drug use in the recent past (not just in youth), for example. The trick is to pay people well enough to have a choice of quality candidates, but not so well that they suck your treasury dry. The prison business doesn't really have a par in the private sector, but if you dropped by closer to private security (for instance) most people would much rather throw a drunk out of a bar than deal with someone who murdered their mother.

Either way, it ain't worth no fifteen million dollar pension!

Quote: 100xOdds

omg.. a corrections lt makes $500k/yr?!
WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

how does a mid-lvl cop make more than the president of the US?!

I don't know about Nevada, but in California, supposedly the two most powerful public service unions are for teachers and corrections officers. There is a case where a past governor (I can't remember if it was Pete Wilson or Gray Davis) wanted to make information on all public workers available online, but, reportedly, somebody representing the prison guards objected, and gave one warning: "CCPOA" (California Correctional Peace Officers Association - i.e. the union).

Power.
When the Teamsters were striking or the steel workers were on strike no one wanted to tackle unions even though the strongest one was the pilots union.
Regan did tackle the ATC union.
Most states don't want to tackle the Prison Unions because prison building is a major industry and we need cells if we are going to have harsh sentencing laws that fill those cells up with drug dealers.
Politicians learn to be pro schools and pro prisons and pro union but against child sexual abuse and crime in general.

Quote: Face

I drive by the prison every day. Parking lot? New Challenger R/T, Harley, Harley, Corvette, Harley, Goldwing, '68 Camaro RS. The few I know got the boats and the bikes, snowmobiles, battalions of 4wheelers, the hunting lodge, the $30k gun collections. Talking with a close friend showed these guys really work the overtime system. Many guys working for a "$50k salary" are actually pulling down $150-$180k a year from O/T. And the pension is something I'd personally kill for. Retire at 50 making more than I do right now? Sign me up for that.

Reminds me of what a guy who was my co-manager told me about COs in NY. He was probably a "frustrated warden" and had a collection of books on corrections. He went to the sites himself many times instead of sending an employee. He respected COs and knew that to say "be/stay safe" was a proper way to say goodbye with respect. But here is his quote:

"The only thing they ever talk about is how much OT is available and how long until they can retire. And even the guys in their 20s can tell you to the week how long until retirement when asked."

Quote: AZDuffman

"The only thing they ever talk about is how much OT is available and how long until they can retire. And even the guys in their 20s can tell you to the week how long until retirement when asked."

It's the truth. I was just with them the other day, 3 in total. The first showed up, and we talked fishing, taking a trip up north, how trout season went, etc. Another showed up and I met him near the door, talked hockey, hunting, etc. The first came over to meet us, and instantly it was them talking of how long til transfer, how many double/triples you pulled and how many days off you get as a result, how much OT was available here vs there, and yes, year and month til retirement, how much they'll be making/will have made by then, what they plan their pension to be...time and money, it's ALL they talk about. Ages range from 28 to 32.

Quote: AZDuffman

"The only thing they ever talk about is how much OT is available and how long until they can retire. And even the guys in their 20s can tell you to the week how long until retirement when asked."

In the 80's we had a contract with GM to pick up
injured employee's in the cab and take them
to the hospital. I always asked how they liked
working for GM and they all talked about how
long they had till retirement. Even the young
guys. What an awful life, all you think about
is retiring.

My brother is law retired from GM at 54 and
now he's bored out of his mind. He can't find
another job because of his age and the economy.
So he's stuck with a $1500 a month pension
till he's 65 and can start collecting $1800 a
month from SS and give up the pension. Its
in their GM union contract that they can't collect
both the pension and SS, its either or. Does
that suck or what.