FleaStiff's Manifesto on Crime and Punishment of Women and Children
Quote: kracker21What did he say that is wrong? If you dont agree with someone you just call them a troll and ignorant.
Everything he said was wrong, not to mention condescending and hypocritical. Just what we've come to expect from the poor man's Jerry Logan.
In any case, I'm not going to get into an argument with either of you. It's not worth my time. If I had a dime for every person who said "but that still doesn't make you a woman," I could afford to retire to a private Caribbean island . It's shocking, isn't it, that I've heard it all before.
Quote: kracker21What did he say that is wrong? If you dont agree with someone you just call them a troll and ignorant.
BTW, mkl is stating an opinion and claiming it's "the simple truth." He has not offered any facts to supoprt his opinion, and the occasional claims he makes about the whole of the SRS process are wrong. Here he said there are no anatomical changes, which any surgeon could disprove in seconds. Elsewhere he said there are no changes to the body's chemistry, which any endocrinologist could aslo disprove in seconds.
So, really, I fail to see why I should take his opinion as manifest truth for no reason other than he claims it is. I fail to see why he should expect anyone to care or even listen, either. Honestly, I'd prefer if he stated his hostility out in the open, instead of disguising it as compassion.
That said, if MKL doesn't "own" the interpretation of gender than neither do you. I'm not sure why MKL has such strong feelings on this issue, but perhaps it is because of his family member's own bad experience with a similar process (MKL, while undoubtedly bright, sometimes seems to put great importance in his personal experiences and draw broader conclusions from them). Whatever his reasons though, if he doesn't consider you a woman that's his right, and it doesn't automatically make him a troll, or even ignorant if he's defending his views based on some sort of logical framework.
I think what Kracker was saying earlier in the thread with his Impalla/Corvette analogy is actually very on point. In the classic car world there are some very nice reproduction models. For instance, there are "1971 Plymouth Hemi 'Cudas" that literally are composed of 100% genuine and original parts found on actual '71 Hemi 'Cudas as they came from the factory. There are zero appearence or drivability differences between these cars and the factory models. However the VIN plate, the closest thing a car has to a soul, shows that they were not originally made as Hemi 'Cudas but rather as base six cylinder models. The market treats these cars as something much less than the genuine article.
I view sex changes in somewhat the same way. If one only cares about the physical appearence, whch is a valid view IMHO, a perfect sex change would really result in a change in gender. If one believes that God or mother nature or fate made someone be born a certain gender then another legitimate view would be to say that's the gender that person really is regardless of physical changes.
Right now though, there is a "VIN plate for gender:" sex chromosomes. Aside from a tiny percentage of people born with non-XX/XY pairings, humans have either one or the other. There is a huge variation in hormone levels, sexual organ shapes and sizes, etc, but the chromosomes are pretty much the chromosomes. If I were inclined to support MKL's view I'd then argue that while a person born XY may move their physical characterestics along the XY spectrum to something closer to the average charactistics of people born XX, they still exist on that XY spectrum, and our current level of science and technology can't change that.
BTW, all of the above is my best current understanding. I welcome being corrected on technical details if I have them wrong. But while anyone is free to tell me that they "own" the meanings of gender in a metaphysical sense don't expect me to accept that view.
Quote: sunrise089I think what Kracker was saying earlier in the thread with his Impalla/Corvette analogy is actually very on point.
I'm at work and rather busy, so I can't give a proper answer. But I do want to address this point:
The analogy with a car is so far off I'm stunned it's made at all. Biological organisms are more malleable than mechanical sistems. It's not unlike the argument comparing evolution to the odds that a tornado blowing through a junk yard will produce a fully functional 747. It just doesn't make sense.
I do find mkl using the terms "he/she/it" rather rude, as the "it" quite clearly shows a disregard for someone's gender identity and outward appearance, and dismisses such difference between biology and identity in one easy phrase.
You can't change someone's chromosomes from XX to XY (or vice versa). That doesn't mean that someone can't switch (or actually be a different) gender (identity) on any one of a number different ways, from clothing, speech, personality, affectations, biological outward apperance or inward biology. How far down that route each person wants to go is up to them. I only really know people who have transgendered outwardly. As a cisgender, and one whose not studied the area, I don't pretend to understand much more than that.
The difference between gender identity and biology is also one that's similar to the difference between ethnicity and ethnic appearance. Or at least from the Body Recovery and Identification world...
Quote: NareedBTW, mkl is stating an opinion and claiming it's "the simple truth." He has not offered any facts to supoprt his opinion, and the occasional claims he makes about the whole of the SRS process are wrong. Here he said there are no anatomical changes, which any surgeon could disprove in seconds. Elsewhere he said there are no changes to the body's chemistry, which any endocrinologist could aslo disprove in seconds.
So, really, I fail to see why I should take his opinion as manifest truth for no reason other than he claims it is. I fail to see why he should expect anyone to care or even listen, either. Honestly, I'd prefer if he stated his hostility out in the open, instead of disguising it as compassion.
NAREED IS NOT A WOMAN.
NAREED WILL NEVER BE A WOMAN. (Unless he lives long enough that such technology actually exists to achieve that--extremely unlikely.)
NO PERSON BORN A MAN CAN PHYSICALLY BECOME A WOMAN (exclusive of pathologies that arrest puberty, etc.), AND VICE VERSA.
Simple truths. Their truth exists independent of whether I, Nareed, or anyone else agrees with it. The impossible is...impossible (at least for now).
Nareed, in his anxiousness, has chosen to misinterpret my supporting remarks. I didn't say "there are no anatomical changes"; I said that internal anatomy can't be modified. If there's a way to install a uterus, ovaries, Fallopian tubes, etc. in a man, AND MAKE THEM FUNCTIONAL, I'd love to know about it. I realize that some so-called "sex change operations" involve installing an artifical vagina in the space vacated after a man's penis and testicles are removed. This, however, is NOT the same as an actual female vagina.
Any changes to the body's chemistry are medication-induced and therefore temporary. The endocrine system can be poisoned/disabled by massive doses of hormones/medication, but that doesn't change a man's endocrine system to that of a woman--it changes it to a malfunctioning, crippled male endocrine system.
I do indeed have a close realtive (my niece) who has suffered greatly from the fiction that a sex change operation is possible, but that isn't the source of what Nareed calls my "hostility"--I'm not in the least hostile to him, except in how I regard his hyper-put-upon attitude (which has nothing to do with his actual or fictive sex). I am not, as one poster speculated, judging the viability of sex change operations based on my niece's experiences. I have done quite a bit of research about such operations, though, as a consequence of her ordeal, and my conclusions are based on that.
There's no doubt in my mind that the fiction of a "sex change operation" can and does make many people much happier. But given that gender roles, not "sex" as such, are what we exhibit to the world, I strongly suspect that changing one's wardrobe, putting on makeup, etc. would be just as effective in accomplishing a "sex change" as submitting to the scalpel, and certainly less expensive, dangerous, and painful.
Quote: thecesspitThere's a difference between "gender identity" and "biological sex".
I do find mkl using the terms "he/she/it" rather rude, as the "it" quite clearly shows a disregard for someone's gender identity and outward appearance, and dismisses such difference between biology and identity in one easy phrase.
You can't change someone's chromosomes from XX to XY (or vice versa). That doesn't mean that someone can't switch (or actually be a different) gender (identity) on any one of a number different ways, from clothing, speech, personality, affectations, biological outward apperance or inward biology. How far down that route each person wants to go is up to them. I only really know people who have transgendered outwardly. As a cisgender, and one whose not studied the area, I don't pretend to understand much more than that.
The difference between gender identity and biology is also one that's similar to the difference between ethnicity and ethnic appearance. Or at least from the Body Recovery and Identification world...
I agree that my use of he/she/it was rude, but I was responding to some severe and utterly unjustified rudeness. But you're right.
I am at last provided with a clue to your rather puzzling ongoing hostility to me, which is that you are in the LBGT camp and view me as one of the "enemy". Rest assured that is not the case. I pity people who feel they were born in the wrong body, but I think that it's a pathology that should be addressed with psychiatry rather than (futile) surgery. I do understand the placebo effect of such surgery, in that it enables the patient to more easily pretend that they are of the opposite sex. Still, I don't think that the proper therapy for a person who wishes he was a cat would be to surgically install whiskers, pointy ears, and a tail.
I do commend you for realizing that what CAN be changed (and rather easily, compared to major surgery and drastic hormone therapy) is gender roles. Maybe these poor people should just stick to that--when you think about it, that really should be enough.
Quote: mkl654321I said that internal anatomy can't be modified. If there's a way to install a uterus, ovaries, Fallopian tubes, etc. in a man, AND MAKE THEM FUNCTIONAL, I'd love to know about it.
My aunt had a radicla hysterectomy 20 years ago as treatement for ovarian cancer. Do I need to inform her she's no longer a woman?
Quote:I realize that some so-called "sex change operations" involve installing an artifical vagina in the space vacated after a man's penis and testicles are removed. This, however, is NOT the same as an actual female vagina.
The penis is not removed, it's re-shaped. It's not the same? Well, not entirely the same, but gynecologists have been fooled by good plastic surgeons. A man having sex with a TS can't tell the difference.
So are you done showing us how much you do not know, or do you need to make a spectacle of your ignorance a while longer?
As to your hostility, does it strike you as friendly to offer highly offensive opinions about subjects you know nothing about? In case you ahven't figured it out, calling people delusional based on your kind of faulty undertsanding of a subject is offensive.
Quote: mkl654321
I am at last provided with a clue to your rather puzzling ongoing hostility to me, which is that you are in the LBGT camp and view me as one of the "enemy". Rest assured that is not the case. I pity people who feel they were born in the wrong body, but I think that it's a pathology that should be addressed with psychiatry rather than (futile) surgery. I do understand the placebo effect of such surgery, in that it enables the patient to more easily pretend that they are of the opposite sex. Still, I don't think that the proper therapy for a person who wishes he was a cat would be to surgically install whiskers, pointy ears, and a tail.
Cisgender doesn't mean what you think it does, Mr Teacher. Next time I need to be psycho-analysed, I'll be sure to ask you first.
And that, gentle reader, is why I think MLK's comments are often examples asshattery.
Quote: thecesspitAnd that, gentle reader, is why I think MLK's comments are often examples asshattery.
Oh, but he knows everything and he's always right. If you don't believe me, just ask him :P
Quote: mkl654321If there's a way to install a uterus, ovaries, Fallopian tubes, etc. in a man, AND MAKE THEM FUNCTIONAL, I'd love to know about it. I realize that some so-called "sex change operations" involve installing an artifical vagina in the space vacated after a man's penis and testicles are removed. This, however, is NOT the same as an actual female vagina.
Ok, you ignoramus, since you're so eager, let's talk.
1) the vagina made in SRS is fully functional. It has a lining, clitoris, outer and inner labia. In some cases patients cannot have an orgasm, but sensation is there. It's not "artificial," either, but made with the patient's own tissues. When you say the penis is removed, you're wrong. It's reshaped.
2) If a TG woman without ovaries, uterus, etc, is not a woman, then a genetic female who has undergone a radical hysterectomy is not a woman, either. I don't see how you can escape that logic (of course you will with some unreasonable fantasy and half-truth, I've full faith in you). There are millions of women like that, who've needed to have their ovaries, tubes and uterus removed for reasons tha go from cancer to ectopic pregnancies, cysts, etc etc etc. By your faulty illogic, they were women at some point, but then they ceased to be. God knows what they are now, though, as they're clearly not men.
3) There's no technical reason why the attempt couldn't be made to transplant ovaries and the rest into a TG patient, or for that matter into any other woman. There is an ethical reason. Transplants are a huge risk at surgery and afterwards cause problems like rejection. Therefore transplants are only done in life or death cases.
This is changing, as recently there have been a few arm, hand and face transplants, none of which were life or death. It may happen in SRS someday.
4) You may know the thyroid gland is crucial to your survival. yet millions of people lack one beacuse of injury, cancer or even iodine defficiencies. They go on with their lives using synthetic thryroid hormones. According to your proprietary brand of illogic, they are all dead because their biochemical balance is maintained through medication rather than natural means.
Post-menopausal women, aprticularly those with premature menopause, take hormone therapy, too. I guess you don't consider them women, maybe just half-women since they have their genitalia, because their body chemistry is manitained through medication. the same applies to some women with radical hysterectomies. Who knew there were so many non-women out there?
The endocrine system, a misnomer BTW, is made up of more than sex hormones. It's true the the massive doses required can cause problems. That's why TG people are warned not to drink alcohol, to ease the load on the liver, and are in the care of an endocrinologist. It's also why it's recommended to undergo SRS. Once the primary glands producing the wrong sex hormones are removed, HRT can proceed on lower doses.
So, are you now done spouting ignorance as mannifest truth, revealed by the almighty mkl, or do you wish to go on?
Quote: thecesspitI assume that the genetic level can't be changed though?
No. But I don't see that it matters. How often do you look at someone's genes?
BTW there are XX men and XY women. It's not the Y chromosome itself that determines sex, but rather a gene or group of genes usually found in it. If these go missing in a transcription error, you get a female. if they migrate to an X chromosome in the same way, you get a male. There are also XY women with androgen insensitivity syndrome.
I don't know for a fact that I have an XY pair. I assume I do, because the odds favor it. But I've never looked into it. I don't intend to, either.
Quote: NareedNo. But I don't see that it matters. How often do you look at someone's genes?
Wait ... isn't one of the main supports for homosexuality related to genetics? "It's not a choice."?
It can't be basd on genes and then genes don't matter, can it?
What if a white guy wanted to be black made a few changes and he looked reasonably like a black guy would you consider him to be a black man?
For the record i would say no.
Quote: NareedNo. But I don't see that it matters. How often do you look at someone's genes?
BTW there are XX men and XY women. It's not the Y chromosome itself that determines sex, but rather a gene or group of genes usually found in it. If these go missing in a transcription error, you get a female. if they migrate to an X chromosome in the same way, you get a male. There are also XY women with androgen insensitivity syndrome.
I don't know for a fact that I have an XY pair. I assume I do, because the odds favor it. But I've never looked into it. I don't intend to, either.
Purely a case of just understanding the level of changes possible, and making sure my assumptions were correct in this case.
Quote: kracker21Let me state this is not very PC but want to know where the line is.
What if a white guy wanted to be black made a few changes and he looked reasonably like a black guy would you consider him to be a black man?
For the record i would say no.
I would say yes for purposes of ethnic appearance.
I'd say it doesn't matter what he looks like for ethnicity.
Quote: thecesspitPurely a case of just understanding the level of changes possible, and making sure my assumptions were correct in this case.
I think you've pointed out a common misperception. Changing your genes won't do anything. Organs and structures are already there, they won't change because the genes change. Suppose you lose an arm in an accident. You still have all the genes for that arm, but that won't make it grow back.
Hypothetically it is possible to coax a lost limb to regrow. Some animals, such as salamnders, do it routinely. And there's evidence human fingertips can regrow on their own, at least in some people. Whether you could coax genes to change an existing limb or organ, though, is a different proposition. And I don't see how you could coax testes not just to change into ovaries, but to crawl back up the abdominal cavity.
Now suppose you get a heart transplant. the genes in the donor heart are different from yours, but the heart works just as well. If you have coronary bypass surgery, the arteries or veins taken from elsewhere in your body are not as good as the coronaries they replace, but they do the job even if they came from genes coding something different.
That's what I mean also when I say genes don't matter as far as sex changes are concerned.
You could take a cell from my body, change the XY pair to an XX and grow a clone, sometime in the future and if we ever grow human clones. BUt what good would that do to me? All that scenario is good for is the Clone Song :)
Quote: thecesspitCisgender doesn't mean what you think it does, Mr Teacher. Next time I need to be psycho-analysed, I'll be sure to ask you first.
And that, gentle reader, is why I think MLK's comments are often examples asshattery.
I'm not current on whatever terms are being used this week in the world of transgenders. My point remains, that I articulated a simple truth about sex change operations and you reacted negatively to that because you don't like that truth. You're trying to shoot the messenger. Like Nareed, you are hostile to everything and everyone because you feel picked-upon by the world. Therefore, I realize that your anger at me is simply displacement. Therefore, I forgive you for it.
Quote: NareedOk, you ignoramus, since you're so eager, let's talk.
So, are you now done spouting ignorance as mannifest truth, revealed by the almighty mkl, or do you wish to go on?
Talk to me with decent manners, and get that massive chip off your shoulder, or don't talk to me at all. I'm not responsible for your unhappiness at being born in the wrong body. YOU, however, are responsible for the way you spew it at the world.
Your post was filled with massive illogic, but I won't bother to debate that with you, because
1. It's impossible to convince someone that something they really really really really want to believe isn't true, and
2. You're behaving like a jerk, and you'll have to put a civil tongue in your head before I'll bother to speak with you again.
P.S. I do, however, understand that your anger at me is simply displacement from your anger at the world. So you are somewhat less to blame than otherwise. It is still possible, I hope, for you to change your attitude about and hatred for the world that made you born in the wrong body.
Quote: Nareed
2) If a TG woman without ovaries, uterus, etc, is not a woman, then a genetic female who has undergone a radical hysterectomy is not a woman, either. I don't see how you can escape that logic (of course you will with some unreasonable fantasy and half-truth, I've full faith in you). There are millions of women like that, who've needed to have their ovaries, tubes and uterus removed for reasons tha go from cancer to ectopic pregnancies, cysts, etc etc etc. By your faulty illogic, they were women at some point, but then they ceased to be. God knows what they are now, though, as they're clearly not men.
Nope. Never said that. In fact, I said the opposite--a person of a given sex who is mutilated is still a member of that sex, whether the mutilation occurs as a result of surgery necessary to save the life of a patient, or as the result of a voluntary "sex change operation" (or accident, violence, etc. etc.). A woman can't change into a man; a man can't change into a woman.
Now spew some more, Nareed.
Quote: mkl654321Nope. Never said that. In fact, I said the opposite--a person of a given sex who is mutilated is still a member of that sex, whether the mutilation occurs as a result of surgery necessary to save the life of a patient, or as the result of a voluntary "sex change operation" (or accident, violence, etc. etc.).
You're setting up a double standard. You claim an MtF sex change requires the rpesence of a full, functional complement of female reproductive organs (for no reason at all). Therefore any individual without such a full set of organs is not a woman. Then you turn around and say an XX female without female reproductive organs is a mutilated woman, even though she is identical in genital equipment, and incidentally in hormonal balance, to a non-woman transsexual.
That's too stupid even for you.
Quote:A woman can't change into a man; a man can't change into a woman.
Not when you redefine woman to an impossible stadard to meet.
Hmmm. The mkl (aka tiny, little man) fallacy: set up an exception for that which you don't like, then claim that exception is proof of the exception, except when it's inconvenient.
I'm sorry for your nephew. he has you in the family.
Quote: mkl654321I'm not current on whatever terms are being used this week in the world of transgenders. My point remains, that I articulated a simple truth about sex change operations and you reacted negatively to that because you don't like that truth. You're trying to shoot the messenger. Like Nareed, you are hostile to everything and everyone because you feel picked-upon by the world. Therefore, I realize that your anger at me is simply displacement. Therefore, I forgive you for it.
Ha ha ha, this comment is highly amusing. The term 'cisgender' has been in use for about 15 years. I'll grant it's not a common word, but sometime I like to use uncommon words as it amuses me. And occasionally catches other people in a trap. What I normally do when I find a word that I don't understand is to look it up. I'd expect a teacher to do much the same, or at least work out the root of the word if he had an IQ of 150.
I didn't actually react negatively to your truth, but you seem to have decided that anyone who even slightly disagrees with you are picked upon. I certainly don't feel picked upon. My original post on this topic was two-fold :
1) stating that calling a transgender person "it" was rather rude
2) that there's a difference between pure biology and gender identity
YOU decided to transpose a theory on my post about my behaviour, the group I belong to and how mean and pitiful I am. You then play the martyr by forgiving me for my transgressions (not cisgressions, ho ho ho). Gee. Thanks.
Quote: thecesspitI'd expect a teacher to do much the same, or at least work out the root of the word if he had an IQ of 150.
Probelm is an IQ of 150, or even higher, is no good if you don't use your brain first.
Quote: NareedI think you've pointed out a common misperception. Changing your genes won't do anything. Organs and structures are already there, they won't change because the genes change. Suppose you lose an arm in an accident. You still have all the genes for that arm, but that won't make it grow back.
(cut)
That's what I mean also when I say genes don't matter as far as sex changes are concerned.
You could take a cell from my body, change the XY pair to an XX and grow a clone, sometime in the future and if we ever grow human clones. BUt what good would that do to me? All that scenario is good for is the Clone Song :)
I don't think I totally agree with you here, but I also don't think my agreement or not matters one little bit to your health or happiness.
The genes layout the blueprint of the biology, while the expression of those genes results in a phenotype (excuse me if I get the biology wrong, I'm learning about it). However, the blueprint can't change. And for things like forensics and body recovery and identification, those things do matter (and as you state, XX and XY isn't all there is to it). Someone born with a certain set of genes will die with them, while their phenotype and expression of those genes can and will vary over time.
For almost all other cases, it doesn't, and whatever works for each person is what's important. It doesn't matter to me how someone else wants to label you, what matters is how YOU want to label yourself.
You may have been be born a man, but how you want to live your life now is much more key to your mental health and happiness with yourself. Gender identity certainly is NOT about the genetics.
Quote: mkl654321I'm not responsible for your unhappiness at being born in the wrong body.
My unhappiness is about having to suffer jerks like you.
Quote:YOU, however, are responsible for the way you spew it at the world.
I'm not spewing anything at the world, I'm directing vitriol at you. Perhaps your enormous IQ isn't enough to comprehend that.
Quote:P.S. I do, however, understand that your anger at me is simply displacement from your anger at the world. So you are somewhat less to blame than otherwise. It is still possible, I hope, for you to change your attitude about and hatred for the world that made you born in the wrong body.
My anger is at you and you alone. I take full responsibility for it. You're a jerk, an idiot and a thoughtless bastard. It's not that you act without tact, as some have suggested, it's that you act contrary to tact, which can only mean you come by and try to hurt people on purpose. Worse than that, you come here, insult me and many other TG people, and you claim to be doing so out of support. You then offer your pity as alms and claim to be magnanimous. You don't offer any reasons, any facts. Just your opinion to be taken as revelaed truth. And if someone posts facts to disprove your opinion or prove your errors, then you dismiss it all, logic-chop your way through, set up doubel standards, and contradict yourself in a manner that would embarrass a trekkie.
If you can't see all that, you're nothing but a pompous, blind, self-important fool without the sense God gave a gnat. Hell, if you can't see any of that you're nothing.
So let me be prefectly clear:
I'm not angry at the world. I'm not bitter about who I am. I'm happy I've figured out what I want and need to do and am doing it. I'm angry at you because you're a thoughtless, insensitive prick. Got that? Or was that too simple for your massive brain?
Nicely said. I blocked this guy a long time ago. It has made my life here much easier.Quote: NareedSo let me be prefectly clear:
I'm not angry at the world. I'm not bitter about who I am. I'm happy I've figured out what I want and need to do and am doing it. I'm angry at you because you're a thoughtless, insensitive prick. Got that? Or was that too simple for your massive brain?
Ms. D.
Quote: DorothyGaleNicely said. I blocked this guy a long time ago. It has made my life here much easier.
Ms. D.
Oh, I blocked him shortly after he first started posting. He was hard to take even then. But he posts so much I wound up being directed to the tops of threads much of the time. I thought I'd give him a chance, too, but I've learned better.
I'll block him again, I expect.
I often ignore whole sections anyways. And whole people too.
Quote: thecesspitI don't think I totally agree with you here, but I also don't think my agreement or not matters one little bit to your health or happiness.
Thanks. I appreciate that. But do feel free to bring up diagreements if you want.
Quote:The genes layout the blueprint of the biology, while the expression of those genes results in a phenotype (excuse me if I get the biology wrong, I'm learning about it).
I did pretty well in highschool biology, but we dnd't see much about genetics then. what i know is largely incomplete and based on popularizations. In any case, I think we're in agreement on this point.
Quote:may have been be born a man, but how you want to live your life now is much more key to your mental health and happiness with yourself.
That's another interesting missperception: that sex change surgery is of paramouont importance. It is for some, certainly, but for many of us it's one thing among many involved in living. An imortant thing, but not the end-all and be-all mundanes tend to think.
Quote:Gender identity certainly is NOT about the genetics.
Not that we know. I mean, there has to be some cause. Maybe it's in some set of genes, maybe it's an environmental factor, in-utero or elsewhere. Point is no one really knows. it does appear to have a biological basis, beyond that there's too little research.
Quote: thecesspitI wish I could block entire sections of the site. I'd probably argue less on non-gambling topics and save myself time.
I often ignore whole sections anyways. And whole people too.
This isn't a gambling forum--it's an opportunity for transgendered people to vent their feelings and seek validation! Duh.
Though it might be more productive for Nareed to seek out an LBGT forum and start some gambling discussions there.
Quote: NareedSo let me be prefectly clear:
I'm not angry at the world. I'm not bitter about who I am. I'm happy I've figured out what I want and need to do and am doing it. I'm angry at you because you're a thoughtless, insensitive prick. Got that? Or was that too simple for your massive brain?
"Prefectly" clear. Also prefectly clear that it's total bullshit. You claim that I have insulted "transgender" people--yet all I did was point out that what they are trying to do is a practical impossibility. For THAT, you hate me--not for the way I said it, but the fact that I said it at all. Why can't you just admit and acknowledge the true reason for your hatred?
You've tendered literally dozens of insults, as above: "You're a this and that" and "You're a that and this." Aside from the fact that such crude and gross behavior violates the rules of the forum (and I'm not going to call the Wiz's attention to it because I both pity and understand you, and I think that you NEED this forum to seek approval and validation), it also violates the rules of common decency. Just imagine a disinterested observer reading your personal insult-filled rants and diatribes aimed at me over the last few days.
Your trying to assume the moral high ground from the depths of the pit you've dug for yourself is both funny and pathetic.
And by the way, YOU'RE A MAN. Man up!
Quote: mkl654321"Prefectly" clear. Also prefectly clear that it's total bullshit. You claim that I have insulted "transgender" people--yet all I did was point out that what they are trying to do is a practical impossibility. For THAT, you hate me--not for the way I said it, but the fact that I said it at all. Why can't you just admit and acknowledge the true reason for your hatred?
You've tendered literally dozens of insults, as above: "You're a this and that" and "You're a that and this." Aside from the fact that such crude and gross behavior violates the rules of the forum (and I'm not going to call the Wiz's attention to it because I both pity and understand you, and I think that you NEED this forum to seek approval and validation), it also violates the rules of common decency. Just imagine a disinterested observer reading your personal insult-filled rants and diatribes aimed at me over the last few days.
Your trying to assume the moral high ground from the depths of the pit you've dug for yourself is both funny and pathetic.
And by the way, YOU'RE A MAN. Man up!
Sadly, you're wrong. Many transgendered people have happily lived as a trans-folk for years, with or without your pity. It is possible to change your gender identity as viewed by other people, whether or not this is by surgery, hormones or merely outward appearance. They don't need your approval or your labels, but it'd probably help if there was one less person in the world who insisted on labelling everyone to their own satisfaction.
You last line is a sign of what little respect you have for the transgendered community. Which suggest you have some issue that you need to work through with it, and you find trans-gendered people a threat of some sort.(*) Such displaced anger. Who'd have thought it?
I do note how you'll now avoid ALL reference to the fact you assumed a bunch of stuff on my one use of a word you didn't understand. Perhaps you should stick to issues you do understand (like VP advantage play, casinos and the like).
(*) I don't know if that sentence is true. I thought I'd try a little psycho-babble myself.
Quote: mkl654321This isn't a gambling forum--it's an opportunity for transgendered people to vent their feelings and seek validation! Duh.
Funny you should complain, when it was you who started the transgendered discussion in this thread. You've gone from hostility to paranoid delusions. Maybe you should look for a TG forum to post on.
Oh, it's not a gambling forum. It's a Vegas forum with some heavy emphasis on gambling. It's also a place for people to discuss other things, as evidenced by the many threads dealing neither with Vegas nor gambling. You've posted in them, too, and damn near everywhere else, so you should be aware of this.
Quote: mkl654321"Prefectly" clear. Also prefectly clear that it's total bullshit.
You eat with that mouth?
Quote:You claim that I have insulted "transgender" people--yet all I did was point out that what they are trying to do is a practical impossibility.
You claim it's a practical impossibility based on wrong assumptions and incorrect information. Not only that, but you go on to describe TG people desirous of SRS as being delusional. If that doesn't strike you as an insult, I don't know what does.
Quote:For THAT, you hate me--
Hell, no. I've hated you since the thread about cheating in casinos. You spewed condescension and insults and never once answered any of the points I raised. This latest tiff is just gravy.
Quote:You've tendered literally dozens of insults, as above: "You're a this and that" and "You're a that and this."
I did. I am a viscious animal: when attacked, I defend myself.
Quote:Aside from the fact that such crude and gross behavior violates the rules of the forum
I think they're allowed under the Free Speech area, which is where we are posting right now. If I'm wrong, I expect I'll be suspended for a while. If any apologies are due, they're due the Wizard and his moderators, not you.
Quote:(and I'm not going to call the Wiz's attention to it because I both pity and understand you, and I think that you NEED this forum to seek approval and validation),
And that's not condescending? I don't need validation or approval. I don't need pity. I come here for intelligent conversation about Vegas and gambling. I've found a lot more. I've found several smart, thoughtful adults who can discuss other topics. I've found support, too, from the Wizard and too many users to mention, lest I leave anyone out.
It must irk you to find you're wrong on so many levels. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth.
Quote:it also violates the rules of common decency. Just imagine a disinterested observer reading your personal insult-filled rants and diatribes aimed at me over the last few days.
Oh, sweetie. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
Quote:And by the way, YOU'RE A MAN. Man up!
Oh, that's really very compassionate and supportive. You're a saint. Hell, you're an angel.
Quote: SOOPOONareed- I have read many of your posts about gambling and you seem to be a 'low roller'. I have thought that the operation and assorted hormones and other stuff costs upwards of $100k. Are you presently saving up?
Maybe this question would be better answered in one of Nareed's other threads.
EDIT - Such as this
Quote: NareedYou eat with that mouth?.........etc
What Happened to
:PQuote: Nareed
Dont Feed The Trolls
I know you feel the need to defend yourself. I myself have felt defensive on a number of occasions, in disagreements with MKL, EvenBob, and JerryLogan, to name the three foremost in my mind.
I have also agreed with MKL on some things, Less with EvenBob, and It was JerryLogan who suggested if I wanted WoVCon to happen, I should try organising it myself.
I admit I am hot tempered. But even I draw the line. Please, Please, Please remember your own words.
MKL, can you not think of other peoples feelings, and Nareed, can you not either block mkl, or use your patented write, wait, post method to avoid jumping in.
In the words of President Dale "Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little people, why can't we all just get along?"
Quote: SOOPOOAlthough genetically they are still unchanged from their original gender, I would agree with Nareed that for all intents and purposes they have changed their sex. The medical community would consider a TG female, originally male, to be a female.
That sums it up well. Though I think doctors have a separate entry for transsexuals. The medical issues are different. For instance, due to the balancing of hormone doses, a TS can test positive in a pregnancy test. Which will do for an irony until a better one comes along :)
Quote:Nareed- I have read many of your posts about gambling and you seem to be a 'low roller'. I have thought that the operation and assorted hormones and other stuff costs upwards of $100k. Are you presently saving up?
I'm a low roller because I don't need to bet more to enjoy gambling. I've no idea what the whole process will cost. Thus far electrolysis is cheaper than I figured it would be. Hormones won't be so bad because they're cheaper in Mexico, especially if I buy the generic kind (I won't before asking the endocrinologist). Surgery? I don't know. It's years away yet. I figure on doing a lot of research. There are several reputable surgeons, including some in Mexico.
I'm estimating around $25 to $50 thousand USD over several years, and that includes post-SRS cosmetic surgery.
Quote: CroupierWhat Happened to
I can only be pushed so much.
Look, if an Evebob says something so monumentally outrageous, and wrong, as mkl did, I'd just post some facts and walk away. But when someone comes in making a show of being supportive and then hurls insults and vitriol out his mouth, he needs to be dealt with. God keep us from people who'd do us good.
Quote:and Nareed, can you not either block mkl, or use your patented write, wait, post method to avoid jumping in.
I did. It dind't work out well. I can PM you later about it if you like.
Quote: thecesspitYou last line is a sign of what little respect you have for the transgendered community. Which suggest you have some issue that you need to work through with it, and you find trans-gendered people a threat of some sort.(*) Such displaced anger. Who'd have thought it?
[snip!]
(*) I don't know if that sentence is true. I thought I'd try a little psycho-babble myself.
Oh, I don't think the Lord High Panjandrum mkl whatsisnumber has any specific issues towards transgendred people. I agree it's all psycho babble, but turnabout is fair play (isn't it?). So My UNprofessional opinion is that mkl is a narcissist who suffers from the need to be recognized as being right all the time. This time the subject were TG people. It could have been something else, like cheating by casinos, tax policy, social studies, owning a trucking company, anythign at all.
Then again he may have some TG issues regarding his nephew. I'd sympathize, except it's mkl we're talking about. Transmen have it rough, and the results of transition are, as I understand, highly unsatisfactory. Many opt out of full SRS altogether because it does little for them. But I don't know enough about the subject, and have only known a couple of female-to-male transsexuals. In any case, I'll cover some of those details in the GLBT section.
Quote: CroupierMKL, can you not think of other peoples feelings, and Nareed, can you not either block mkl, or use your patented write, wait, post method to avoid jumping in.
In the words of President Dale "Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little people, why can't we all just get along?"
I do think of other people's feelings. In Nareed's case, I truly feel sorry for him, and I certainly understand where his paranoia, his hypersensitivity, and his drastically defensive attitude comes from. He feels he's been picked on all his life. No doubt most people he floated his transgender desires past didn't receive the news well. In his mind, he's conflating me with all those people who heaped scorn on him all his life, simply because I pointed out that a sex change operation is a practical impossibility. To him, that makes me an LBGT-hater. His eyes-bugged-out, insult-laden tirades at me have been puzzling in the sheer magnitude of rage aimed my way.
So I'm not dealing with a rational person, at least not when he is immersed in this topic, and the best way to "work out my differences" with Nareed is to gently acknowledge, then step carefully around, his pathology.
Quote: mkl654321
So I'm not dealing with a rational person, at least not when he is immersed in this topic, and the best way to "work out my differences" with Nareed is to gently acknowledge, then step carefully around, his pathology.
I think its the gentle that has been lacking. As you probably know, you come across pretty abrasively at times. Im not saying Nareed is completely blameless, as her closeness to the subject matter clouds her judgement and colours her responses. Maybe you could do slightly more to tone down your responses, as could Nareed.
Quote: mkl654321I do think of other people's feelings.
I agree. 100% you do need to think of other people's feelings when pondering how to squish them flat.
Quote:In Nareed's case, I truly feel sorry for him, and I certainly understand where his paranoia, his hypersensitivity, and his drastically defensive attitude comes from.
Do you understand where your projection is coming from?
Quote:In his mind, he's conflating me with all those people who heaped scorn on him all his life,
Get this through your thick skull: I'm not conflating anyone. I dislike YOU personally. I have since you came in the forum. if you don't believe anyone could possibly dislike you, that you need to make excuses even for your enemies, then you're the one who's sick.
I'll prove it, too.
Personally, I don't get it. What drives someone to make a decision to become TG? What drives someone to spend the money, effort, and therapies to change their sexual identity? What drives one to look at oneself and say, "I should be a man", or "I should be a woman". Is there deep unhappiness with who they are, so much so, that they believe that the only way they will be happy is to become TG? Do people who make the choice to become TG do so, only to find out that they are no happier after making the choice and undergoing all of the things that make them into the opposite gender? I wonder.
In the case of my best friend, both he and his "brother" (in my opinion) have mental issues... nothing serious enough to send them to a mental hospital, but both have enough hangups and issues to prevent them from finding meaningful relationships with those that attract them (they are in their 40s). Knowing their parents quite well, I understand why they turned out the way they did.
I'm with MKL, ONLY in the simple truth that you can't change a man completely into a woman and vice versa. I know that you argue, Nareed that women without part of their reproductive system are still women and that there are HRTs available to simulate the sex hormones, but still, don't you think there's something missing?
And, I don't understand the reasoning behind making the choice to change sex. That's my ignorance. Weirdly enough, I've asked a bunch of questions to my best friend, and he doesn't have the answers either. He can't even answer the question "what sex is your brother attracted to?".
Quote: boymimboPersonally, I don't get it. What drives someone to make a decision to become TG?
One reason you don't get it is the way you're looking at it. Ask yourself "what drove me not to be TG?" The question is meaningless, but so is yours. It's something you are, not something you choose to be.
Quote:don't you think there's something missing?
Yes, there's something missing. The error here is to think sex reassignment surgery is what makes someone a given gender. There's a lot more to being a woman, or a man, than what your genitals look like and what organs are inside you.
I suggest, though, that if you want to discuss this topic you post on the GLBT section.
Quote: FleaStiffThey should be passing PRO nuclear power and PRO nuclear war laws, the way some towns passed mandatory gun ownership laws when some group clamored to ban firearms.
All this makes as much sense as the law that makes it a misdemeanor to kick, carry, punt, throw or any manner convey or cause to be conveyed an inflated pigskin across the goal line of the Tuscon Badgers and is prominently posted in the visiting teams locker room.
Smuggling hugely pregnant women across the border so they deliver in the USA and the brat has citizenship does take place. The law SHOULD be that the Coyote, the woman and the little brat get shot on sight and their corpses left to rot right where they are found.
I'm tired of tax money going to pass laws trying to restrict violence in video games or laws that require teaching certain subjects in a school such as evolution, creationism or holocaust biases. I'm tired of new laws. Legislatures been passing laws for darn near two hundred years and they still ain't got it right yet. The best states are the ones who run occasional sessions of the legislature on a part-time non-salaried basis. Its a free country is simply a slogan that is inapplicable in any nation that passes more than five laws a year.
Texas wanted an English Only law... yet entire areas of Texas spoke Russian and German, not English or Spanish when Texas was being settled. Legislators are opposed to laborers riding the rails from farm to farm mainly because such laborers are viewed as ethnically undesirable but until 1910 the highest migrant laboring groups in this country were the Germans and Irish.
Schools are major circulators of pathogens and are a net loss to societal productivity and SHOULD be illegal but any politician who tries to force parents to school their children would be hanged from the nearest lamp post by marauding mobs of enraged mothers.
Stop looking for common sense, truth or a sense of values in politics! It ain't never been there and it ain't never gonna be there. We fought a revolution partly to be free of citizens having to support all those Crown officials yet we as a nation now support more federal, state and local officials than was ever contemplated by the Founding Fathers.
In the Rich Newman Patent Attorney Info Thread I have been vilified and insulted multiple times for pointing out a rules violation. Since that thread has been closed I'll use this space to rebut the vicious, unwarranted character assassination that I suffered as a result.
I merely pointed out a violation just as all the little tattlers do here every day. The difference is that I didn't slink around behind the scenes. I rocked the boat in full view of everyone. Transparency. For that I have been insulted multiple times and falsely accused of some very vile, ugly things. All for rocking the boat. One person started and others piled on. One went so far as to tell me how to address another forum member. Others have implied that it's perfectly acceptable to break the rules. Who knew?
I have been falsely and maliciously accused of spewing hate, an unfounded allegation that I find particularly vicious and insulting. I've been falsely accused of having a vendetta. If you look up vendetta you can see that the word is really misused here although it could be spun to fit. I've been told in front of the entire forum that my posts are a waste of time, another awful, dare I say hateful, insult. All for rocking the boat.
I am none of the things that I have been falsely accused of. I harbor no vendettas and I hate no one past or present. Hate only consumes the vessel that contains it. Some here should really take that to heart. I'm a big boy so I'll survive these spiteful attacks perpetrated on an anonymous internet. People who know me in real life are the ones who count and who know what I'm about and what I stand for. If anyone on this forum feels the need to validate themselves or make up for their shortcomings by insulting me, be my guest and have at it. I can take it.
Oh, I almost forgot. If you want to see what I consider hate, read the third paragraph of the quoted post above and pay particular attention to the second sentence. Sorry to bring up such a horrific image but, unlike pointing out a rule violation, this is something that should not be swept under the rug.
Now everyone do a good deed or a random act of kindness today. It will feel good. I promise.
+100,000Quote: 1BBIn the Rich Newman Patent Attorney Info Thread I have been vilified and insulted multiple times for pointing out a rules violation. Since that thread has been closed I'll use this space to rebut the vicious, unwarranted character assassination that I suffered as a result.
I merely pointed out a violation just as all the little tattlers do here every day. The difference is that I didn't slink around behind the scenes. I rocked the boat in full view of everyone. Transparency. For that I have been insulted multiple times and falsely accused of some very vile, ugly things. All for rocking the boat. One person started and others piled on. One went so far as to tell me how to address another forum member. Others have implied that it's perfectly acceptable to break the rules. Who knew?
I have been falsely and maliciously accused of spewing hate, an unfounded allegation that I find particularly vicious and insulting. I've been falsely accused of having a vendetta. If you look up vendetta you can see that the word is really misused here although it could be spun to fit. I've been told in front of the entire forum that my posts are a waste of time, another awful, dare I say hateful, insult. All for rocking the boat.
I am none of the things that I have been falsely accused of. I harbor no vendettas and I hate no one past or present. Hate only consumes the vessel that contains it. Some here should really take that to heart. I'm a big boy so I'll survive these spiteful attacks perpetrated on an anonymous internet. People who know me in real life are the ones who count and who know what I'm about and what I stand for. If anyone on this forum feels the need to validate themselves or make up for their shortcomings by insulting me, be my guest and have at it. I can take it.
Oh, I almost forgot. If you want to see what I consider hate, read the third paragraph of the quoted post above and pay particular attention to the second sentence. Sorry to bring up such a horrific image but, unlike pointing out a rule violation, this is something that should not be swept under the rug.
Now everyone do a good deed or a random act of kindness today. It will feel good. I promise.
And, good deed done.
Narragansett Bay is fairly calm right now so.......don't.......rock........the........boat!
Too bad this thread is partially hidden. Everyone should see it without stumbling upon it.
