Posted in Free Speech, in case I Offend

Tribe members, you have been warned if you don't like ethnic jokes or off-color jokes, but I think it is OK if you tell it on yourself, so to speak.

Especially check out the second one down on the right under "recent videos".

oldjewstellingjokes.com

Bonus Free Speech question: Is it unacceptable stereotyping to say you have noticed Jews like to gamble? or that Asians like to gamble?

Quote: odiousgambit

Bonus Free Speech question: Is it unacceptable stereotyping to say you have noticed Jews like to gamble? or that Asians like to gamble?

I haven't known any Jews that like to gamble. I don't think it is part of the culture. Feel free to disprove me with anecdotal evidence, but I haven't seen any.

For what it's worth, here is my listing of ethnic groups/nationalities by their propensity for gambling:

(1) Chinese
(2) Vietnamese
(3) Mexicans
(4) Australians
(5) Arabs
(6) Koreans

I would lump Americans and Europeans as higher than average bettors, but it is just to difficult to break down those groups. Japanese are very risk averse and do not gamble heavily (there is Pachinko for small stakes).

my Jewish evidence would be anecdotal. Interested to see what anyone else might say.

Quote: odiousgambit

Bonus Free Speech question: Is it unacceptable stereotyping to say you have noticed Jews like to gamble? or that Asians like to gamble?

It's just a question of noticing someone differnet. You notice Asians. You notice Jews - if they are wearing a yarlmulke. You won't notice Jews if they aren't wearing a yarlmulke.

Do you notice any black people in the casino?


For what it's worth, I, my brother, his friend, and the wives have a tradition to go to a casino for a couple days on Christmas.

After all, what else are Jews going to do?


On that note, why do the casinos continue to play Christmas music on Christmas day? It should be obvious that anyone in a casino on Christmas, other than staff, isn't all that concerned with Christmas!

The following is a reprint of an article written by John M. Glionna of the Los Angeles Times, entitled Gambling Seen as No-Win Situation for Some Asians, originally published January 16, 2006. It discusses the popularity of gambling among Asian Americans, its ties to traditional Asian culture, and some of the problems of addiction associated with it.

An Emerging Community Issue

In Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino, Korean and Cambodian communities, social workers and leaders are pressuring gaming officials and state legislators to recognize a hidden epidemic. "This isn't a special-interest group overblowing a problem," said Timothy Fong, co-director of the UCLA Gambling Studies Program, which is conducting an Asian gambling study. "We think this is real."

Nobody really knows how deeply problem gambling reaches into Asian communities because Asians have not been broken out as a group in national or California studies on the issue. But a 1999 poll in San Francisco's Chinatown, commissioned by a social services agency, found that 70% of 1,808 respondents ranked gambling as their community's No. 1 problem.

In a follow-up poll, 21% of respondents considered themselves pathological gamblers and 16% more called themselves problem gamblers -- rates significantly higher than in the overall population. Current data suggest that 1.6% of Americans can be classified as pathological gamblers, a condition recognized as a psychiatric disorder. About 3% more are considered problem gamblers.

Gambling has become America's adult pastime of choice. Each year, more money is spent in the nation's $75-billion gaming industry than on movies, concerts, sporting events and amusement parks combined. And nowhere is gambling on a bigger roll than in California, with nearly 60 Indian casinos, scores of card rooms, racetracks and Internet gambling sites as well as one of the nation's most lucrative state lotteries.

Asian gamblers play a key role in that success. Though few statistics on their contribution to the state's gambling pot exist, some casinos and card rooms near Los Angeles and San Francisco estimate that Asians often account for 80% of their customers. "Asians are a huge market," said Wendy Waldorf, a spokeswoman for the Cache Creek Casino north of San Francisco. "We cater to them."

Each day in San Gabriel, Monterey Park and San Francisco's Chinatown, scores of buses collect Asian customers for free junkets to Indian casinos and to Reno and Las Vegas. Many Nevada casinos also maintain business offices in Monterey Park, where hosts keep in regular touch with Asian high rollers. To reach more run-of-the-mill gamblers, casinos run ads in Asian-language print and broadcast media and conduct direct-mailing campaigns to ZIP Codes with high numbers of Asian residents.

A Tradition of Gambling

Many Asians -- especially Chinese -- consider gambling an accepted practice at home and at social events, even among the young. Chinese youths often gamble for money with aunts, uncles and grandparents. While growing up in San Francisco's Chinatown, Lee took betting to absurd levels -- wagering on whether the teacher would assign homework. On rainy days, he bet on which drop would first reach the bottom of the classroom window.
Group of Chinese Americans scratching off lottery tickets Β© Beatrice de Gea/LA Times

Many Chinese are fascinated by the mystical qualities of luck, fate and chance. The Chinese New Year -- this year Jan. 29 -- is a time of heightened wagering, when bad luck of the old year is ushered out by the good luck of the new. Numerology also plays a crucial role in many Asian cultures. The number 8, for example, is considered extremely lucky by many Chinese, while 4, when spoken in Mandarin and Cantonese, sounds like the word for death and is avoided.

Though Chinese believe most strongly in such concepts, other Asian cultures, including Vietnamese, Korean and Filipino, hold similar beliefs -- depending on China's political influence in their history or the extent of Chinese immigration there. Experts believe that recent Asian immigrants -- risk-takers willing to leave the familiarity of their homelands -- develop more aggressive gambling strategies than their U.S.-born counterparts.

Often lacking language skills and advanced education, some gravitate to casinos, where waitresses dote on gamblers with free drinks and cigarettes. "They're treated as honored guests even though they work dead-end, minimum-wage jobs," said Tina Shum, a social worker in San Francisco's Chinatown. "That's what they long for." Some eventually engage in "attack" gambling: wagering sums beyond their means in a reckless grab at the American dream. "The immigrant experience is often demeaning," Shum said. "Many get blinded by the neon lights."

Losing More Than Money

But such gaming habits come at a cost. "An astronomical amount of money leaves the Asian community for gambling industry coffers," said Paul Osaki, a member of a gambling task force created last year by the state Commission on Asian and Pacific Islander Affairs. "It's not all discretionary money. It's quality-of-life money, food-on-the-table money, college education money."

Osaki and other activists want more research and culturally sensitive gambling treatment programs for often-reserved Asians with gambling problems -- for whom Western strategies like Gamblers Anonymous rarely work. Kent Woo, executive director of a Chinatown-based health coalition that conducted the gambling polls, said the biggest challenge is to convince the community that it has a problem.
Traditional Chinese cards Β© Getty Images

"Breaking through the denial is the hard part," he said. Still, activists say, California's Office of Problem Gambling is under-funded and disorganized. The agency's $3-million budget is derived from contributions from 26 Native American-run casinos. Thirty other tribal casinos do not contribute. Nor do card rooms, race tracks or the state lottery. In 2003 the office left its entire budget unspent.

Diane Ujiiye, who heads the problem gambling task force, said $3 million wasn't nearly enough to deal with the issue. "It's unacceptable," she said. "What can you do with $3 million? Publish a couple of brochures and run a hotline?"

Denial and Dependence

When Bill Lee was on a roll, nothing mattered but the gambling, not even family. He fell for the VIP treatment that came with betting thousands of dollars at a casino: free hotel suites and concert tickets, having casino managers know his name. "I was a big shot," Lee said, "as long as the money lasted." Angela, 52, a San Gabriel Valley Las Vegas gambling tour guide operator, said that on most trips, she ended up losing her own money and began playing with the company's funds.

She said she tried to tame her zealous gambling. On one Vegas trip, she gave all her credit cards to a friend and begged her not to return them, no matter what she said. Later, after losing all her cash, Angela threatened to slap her friend unless she returned the cards. "She threw the cards on the floor and I got down onto my hands and knees without shame to pick them up."

Angela helped start one of the state's few Mandarin Chinese gambling treatment programs. But she soon realized a hard fact: Admitting an addiction is difficult in any culture. But many Asians find it particularly hard, especially men. "It's shameful to be emotionally weak," Lee said. "It's not acceptable. So you certainly don't get up and bare your soul before a room full of strangers."

To save face among neighbors, many families will bail out an addicted gambler, paying off casinos and loan sharks, rather than seek help. Asian American advocates are urging casinos to distribute brochures in Asian languages offering help to problem gamblers. More ambitiously, they want ATMs in casinos closed and overnight hours curtailed to discourage problem gamblers. They also would like the state to require gaming venues to contribute to treatment programs.

Yet casino owner Chu warned that "too many restrictions will kill business."


Copyright Β© 2006 by John M. Glionna and the Los Angeles Times. Reprinted in accordance with Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976.

Suggested reference: Glionna, John M. 2006. "Gambling, Addiction, and Asian Culture" Asian-Nation: The Landscape of Asian America. (March 10, 2010).

Just to throw my two cents out. You were spot on with Japanese. Being half Japanese, nobody on that side of the family except for a cousin who's my age knows that I enjoy gambling. Aside from being reasonably successful in other aspects of my life, I wouldn't say I'd be shunned by I would be looked down on. Personally, I would put Viets higher than Chinese but that's from a sample size of only 5-10.

Viets are kind of one whole culture, whereas a lot of Chinese have adapted the Japanese-esque style to it.

What I've noticed about Asians I've encountered in casinos is the amount they bet and the intensity with which they play. I don't see them playing reds, they play blacks. And they are focused; they are deeply emotionally involved. It always looked like addiction to me, but I try to stay on top of my own game so I didn't look too hard.

I always figured they were Pacific Rim computer/software industry millionaires. But I did wonder about how there were so many of them, and why they would come to AC instead of Vegas.

An addiction is how I would classify it. My friend's parents lost 20 grand in vegas and his family can't make more than a hundred grand a year. Personally I find mildly successful 20-somethings the biggest gamblers regardless of race.

To get back to the poster's question, no. But I'm particularly open about these kinds of things, ill call my asian friends fobs and my black friends negros, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Paco, thanks for the article. Problem gambling is undoubtedly a problem in the Asian community. Go to Atlantic City or the casinos outside of Chicago and you will see the "Asian gaming areas." The casinos compete fiercely for their business. One casino put in a noodle bar. Now ALL the casinos in A.C. have noodle bars. Their gambling style is different from Americans, too. They do not hesitate to double or nothing after every win, and do not seem to care if they lose.
--------------------
One casino that I frequent is in a community with a decent-sized Asian population. They make up a large percentage of the clientele. I was at the casino one day in early February (this was before New Years, so I'm not sure if it was a special occasion). The action was insane. I was playing my usual low-limit blackjack and one table over the Asians were sitting with stacks of orange ($1000s) in front of them and some were betting the table max every time. They seemed to be trying to earn their money for the year, or something. One guy commented that it was very "stressful." His wife kept bringing him bundles of $100 bills that they had obviously just withdrawn from a bank since the wrappers were still on them. It was quite a sight to see. The game was baccarat, of course
-------------------
ahiromu, you're probably right about the viets. chinese are pretty hard to categorize, but I think the south chinese around guangzhou/hong kong/macau are pretty heavy gamblers as a rule of thumb. The article also mentioned cambodians and filipinos but their subsistence-level economies don't really allow for that much wagering yet.

I've seen quite a few Asian guys gambling that could play Scotty Nguyen in a biopic.

Quote: ahiromu

An addiction is how I would classify it. My friend's parents lost 20 grand in vegas and his family can't make more than a hundred grand a year. Personally I find mildly successful 20-somethings the biggest gamblers regardless of race.

To get back to the poster's question, no. But I'm particularly open about these kinds of things, ill call my asian friends fobs and my black friends negros, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

And unfortunately a lot of them don't have any conception of probabilities. I played BJ last night and had a young married couple (early 20's I imagine) from Arizona sitting next to me and the wife was playing for the first time. Her husband had a decent handle on the basic strategy and was trying to get her to stick to that. Well she had some bad luck and lost when he told her to stay, like a 14 against a 6 or something like that, and she started getting pissy, as if the odds were just superstitious. Needless to say they lost their money rather quickly and left the rest of us to gamble in peace.

Quote: derik999

And unfortunately a lot of them don't have any conception of probabilities. I played BJ last night and had a young married couple (early 20's I imagine) from Arizona sitting next to me and the wife was playing for the first time. Her husband had a decent handle on the basic strategy and was trying to get her to stick to that. Well she had some bad luck and lost when he told her to stay, like a 14 against a 6 or something like that, and she started getting pissy, as if the odds were just superstitious. Needless to say they lost their money rather quickly and left the rest of us to gamble in peace.

Couples frequently have the same argument. Whenever I go gambling with the Mrs, the Mrs is always Mrs. Hindsight. "Basic strategy says this, I say". Then the card comes out that would have saved her, like the magical 5 on a 14 vs a 6 (which of course the dealer got on a 16 to make 21, and the next card was a 10... you ruined the table!!!). Then it's like, next time a 14 vs a six comes out I say to her "don't hit", and of course she hits and gets a 10 (busts), and then the dealer pulls a five out of his a** to make 21. Told you so!

The worst part is not the strategy, it's the stupid side bets, like Perfect Pairs on a 5 deck CSM (HA 7.7%). Of course the 2nd hand played I get a pair that would have paid $125, had I played it. So of course, after we see it out on the board a few times, my wife starts playing it sporadically. Thing is, she probably ended up on the perfect pairs last night by about $100 so now it will become part of her repertoire. For me, I just see $.38 being sucked out of every hand of a game when we should only be down $.06 ($15 x .004).

Quote: boymimbo

Couples frequently have the same argument. Whenever I go gambling with the Mrs, the Mrs is always Mrs. Hindsight. "Basic strategy says this, I say". Then the card comes out that would have saved her, like the magical 5 on a 14 vs a 6 (which of course the dealer got on a 16 to make 21, and the next card was a 10... you ruined the table!!!). Then it's like, next time a 14 vs a six comes out I say to her "don't hit", and of course she hits and gets a 10 (busts), and then the dealer pulls a five out of his a** to make 21. Told you so!

The worst part is not the strategy, it's the stupid side bets, like Perfect Pairs on a 5 deck CSM (HA 7.7%). Of course the 2nd hand played I get a pair that would have paid $125, had I played it. So of course, after we see it out on the board a few times, my wife starts playing it sporadically. Thing is, she probably ended up on the perfect pairs last night by about $100 so now it will become part of her repertoire. For me, I just see $.38 being sucked out of every hand of a game when we should only be down $.06 ($15 x .004).

Though one really shouldn't have to, it can be annoying to have to try and justify your play by explaining that it was dictated by the odds (of course you never admit counting). I split 4's against a 6 because we can double down where I play and some old fart was trying to give me his "sagely" advice that I should never split the 4's and only double down. I told him plainly that I would have if we couldn't double down after a split. I also hit a soft 18 against a 9 and the lady a couple seats down claimed she'd never seen anyone play that way. Meanwhile she's playing 5 bucks a pop on the side bets and her stack is shrinking. Thankfully there is another guy that is a regular (I haven't played there enough to be considered one myself) who knows why I'm playing the cards (plays the basic strategy though I doubt he counts) a certain way and will try to explain it to the person if he/she is sitting next to him. We seem to be the only two that will hit on a 16 without thinking twice, while others agonize over busting.

Busting seems to be the biggest worry the average player has. Not sure if that is the case with your Mrs or not. I'm more worried about the dealers hole card.

NEVER double down 8.

It's difficult to justify the soft 18 hit, even on a 10. Easy to explain that 3 cards help, 4 remain the same, but 5 others give you a problem where you have to hit to make a hand.

That action of 16 on a dealer 10 is either a hit (-.5404) or stand (-.5398). Combination wise, I usually hit a 16 unless I see a pile of small cards on the table or I am counting and know that count is below zero. If your 16 is made up of 3 or more cards too it's okay to stand. I always tell people that it's their decision on that particular bet.

I get chided all of the time for my play but I know it's the right thing to do.

I work in a local Henderson casino, and yes, Asians are VERY well-represented, often green action.

But so is the Jewish community of Henderson (huge at my casino), Anglo-Americans, and a few anglicized Mexicans, not to mention a few middle-class blacks - many of whom are avid Pai Gow players!

I see few Japanese, but some.
The places where I see Japanese men relaxing and winding down is most often at the strip clubs.

My wife is Thai, and is generally anti-gambling, and gambles occasionally at most. I have to check with her before I go gambling - unless she wants to spend up to $40 on Video Poker at the Skyline or the California.
If I play table games, she pretty much has to be present, and it's limited to Three card Poker or Pai Gow. Forget about BJ or Craps! ("Mia Kin-nee-yow" is Thai for "the cheap wife.")

On the occasions I nailed big wins playing black action (with her sweating and praying to the Buddha), she then grabs 80% of the black chips won, and uses it to get ahead on the mortgage payments, or on a needed/wanted appliance for the house.

Once I won $2,200 on a $100 buy-in at three card poker at Sunset. I nailed a mini-Royal, went to Black on the Ante and Play for two hands with $20 on the pair plus, then nailed three queens - and they paid me all the green in the rack. My my scooped up all the Quarters (four stacks of green!), and started to walk to the cage. This was only after 15 minutes of play. We had to stop her so I could legitimately color up, so they wouldn't need a fill. I then tipped $300 (she nearly passed out, but I told her "it was like an offering to the Buddha, in a gambler's honor sense, gratitude for the luck." I tipped especially because I am a dealer at a sister property.) Wifey then took $1,600 to the cage to get two months ahead on the mortgage, and I took $300 to throw some dice. She is the most sensible Asian gambler in the world, in the sense that anytime a good win happens, it gets locked up and spent on the family.

Strange thing, half of the time she accompanies me, I nail a straight flush with $20 on the pair plus, or a $6 9-high paigow, or hold onto the dice for 40 minutes before she says, "Okay! We go now!"

Before I came to Vegas, I used to live in the Chinatown section of New York. Every Saturday morning at 6:30AM buses to Atlantic City and Connecticut would line up on Canal Street from Gold Street to 6th Avenue, practically. It was an Asian Exodus for the weekend. You'd occasionally see a wife or mother yelling from the curb to a window on the bus, "You CLAZY!! Why you spend da family money??!! I HATE you!! and crying. I hated AC, $25 plus limit, and players line three rows deep at a crap table. I would go to LV from LaGuardia airport for $199 round trip and stay at the Wild Wild West for a week...finally, I moved out here, and have been in gaming every since.

Quote: boymimbo

NEVER double down 8.

It's difficult to justify the soft 18 hit, even on a 10. Easy to explain that 3 cards help, 4 remain the same, but 5 others give you a problem where you have to hit to make a hand.

That action of 16 on a dealer 10 is either a hit (-.5404) or stand (-.5398). Combination wise, I usually hit a 16 unless I see a pile of small cards on the table or I am counting and know that count is below zero. If your 16 is made up of 3 or more cards too it's okay to stand. I always tell people that it's their decision on that particular bet.

I get chided all of the time for my play but I know it's the right thing to do.

Why would the EV be lower for a hit (-.5404) than a stand (-.5398)? Are you sure you don't have it switched?

Quote: Robmorrow

Why would the EV be lower for a hit (-.5404) than a stand (-.5398)? Are you sure you don't have it switched?

They have to be switched unless it is assuming a certain count or their are some small cards on the table.

Quote: teddys

(this was before New Years, so I'm not sure if it was a special occasion).

Oriental New Year is a three day event during which it is customary to gamble. In a country such as Vietnam, it is the only three days of the year that it is legal to gamble, so the gambling will be high stakes and non-stop for those three days. In other Oriental countries its still common to gamble at New Years.

I don't know if Asian cultures have problem gamblers... there is alot of money in being a consultant to the Asian Gambling Problem, so I'm sure somebody will go out and find that one exists, but take away the financial incentive to find such a problem and I don't know if really exists.

Quote: Robmorrow

Why would the EV be lower for a hit (-.5404) than a stand (-.5398)? Are you sure you don't have it switched?

6 decks, dealer hits on soft 17

10 dealer
10,6 player
stand -0.540954
hit -0.534676

10 dealer
9,7 player
stand -0.536809
hit -0.535392

" If your 16 is made up of 3 or more cards too it's okay to stand. "
Actually that is probably the higher EV.