Are Transwomen Women

We all know you have an obsession with transwoman. It’s the same thing as with closeted gay men who are homophobic, you a man who fancies transwoman likes to deflect and make jokes about others enjoying transwoman.

We all still love you even though you like to dabble in the pre op trans scene from time to time.

After my clarification on site policy on pronouns, I expected some discussion on gender identity. However, the topic has gone off the rails. I plan to close this thread at 8:00PM PST today. This is your chance to conclude what you want to say and then move on.

These guys that turned into women really have to keep their voice up high and feminine to be a greeter at some superstore.

It’s polite to treat people how they would like to be treated if it doesn’t hurt anyone else.

That said, I think an opinion with no bias built in would be: if this person’s skeleton was found after missing for years, would they be identified as a male or female skeleton?

Quote: AZDuffman

I am in a minority group on here. 2 actually. Conservative and not an atheist. I simply deal with it.
link to original post

Well, I was going to take a few days off. I'm going to take the days mostly off.

Okay, gloves off.

Anyway, you're going to tell me that you're religious and, all of a sudden, you have a deep concern with being able to physically prove things?

Selective, much?

Okay, well, let's meet up and you can physically demonstrate your probable fictional character to me, how's that sound? You can further demonstrate all of the BS that your fictional character said (most of which he didn't even supposedly say) in that ridiculous book of yours that has led to your staunch conservatism.

Irrespective of whether or not trans women are women, at least they aren't taking their marching orders from a fairy tale.

Quote: littleredrooster

this is a very small group - I was referring to the society as a whole - a whole different thing - this group has no power at all other than to ban you or suspend you - a very minor thing in the scheme of things - the society as a whole has overwhelming power

it's an entirely different thing - if you're a member of one minority group - you feel it when a different minority group gets mocked or insulted - you know it could be your turn next - and you know it could happen to your children or other family members - and you know that at any moment it could morph into a physical thing

I mean, it depends, right?

I'm Caucasian, heterosexual, male, can't dance and am remarkably average everywhere but height and between the ears.

Even then, I don't feel the need to insult individuals, mock them or refuse to comply with very simple requests of theirs just to prove a point.

Maybe that's just the difference between an Agnostic (myself) and what seems to be an Evangelical, such as AZDuffman, I don't know.

Perhaps, somewhere along the line, some of us Agnostics were taught basic concepts such as respect, tolerance, love for your fellow man and to display some amount of understanding for others.  Hell, maybe some of us Agnostics even read about that in a book somewhere and thought, "Wow, what great concepts!"

If only I could find that book, then perhaps I could share it with certain people on the Evangelical Right...

Quote: ThisIsMyJam

I don't know anything about you specifically or if this applies to you but I'm always curious about straight men who state a transgender woman actually becomes a woman. Does that mean those same straight men would be willing to have a relationship and/or be intimate with these newly made women?

This is a great point for a totally different reason.

From my perspective, the only reason that I could EVER have to actually CARE about someone's gender (because I am not in the healthcare field) is if I had an eye towards sleeping with that person. That said, I have been in a monogamous relationship for something like eight and a half years.

It is with that I conclude that a transgender person's gender matters infinitely more to them than it does to me. What possible concern could I have with what gender someone is if I do not plan to copulate with them?

So, when we talk about pronouns---we're talking about a person making an extremely simple request, (provided the pronouns are standard---I won't be hassled with any of these new concoctions and they can just be they/their) generally, to switch from one side of singular third-person usage to the other. Again, another individual's gender impacts me exactly zero, I can't think of a context where it would, so given that the request means something to them and not me, and it's easy for me to comply with, I comply with it.

Quote: ThisIsMyJam

True, there is someone for everyone but "some do" is rather vague. That could be a minute number. IMO, if a man truly believes this then he should have no problem having a relationship with a trans woman. I've asked a few men elsewhere online and now here but I never get an actual straightforward response. Thus my curiosity remains.

Here's my point:

The thread titles asks: Are transwomen women?

My answer is: Not only does it mean more to them than it does me, but why I would care?

Honestly, the only context where I might even feel the need to have an opinion against the notion of whether transwomen are women is when it comes to women's amateur and professional sports. Other than that, pick anyone in the world, their gender is irrelevant to me.

We're also not talking about sports, are we? Hell, we weren't even talking about whether or not Nareed is, in fact, a woman. We were talking about the Forum policy that Nareed should be called she/her as those are her requested pronouns...which is totally irrelevant to AZDuffman's belief, or lack thereof, that she is, in fact, a woman.

I would think that anyone is free to believe what they want on that issue, but that does nothing to change that it's a showing of basic human respect to not call people that which they do not wish to be called. It's a sign of empathy to know that, if you are not trans, you will never understand what it's like to be them. It's a sign of tolerance to acquiesce to their requests if what they are asking for is inconsequential to you, which it should be.

I mean, being me is easy anyway, right? I think in ways and do the things that my physical biology tells me I should be doing. I look in the mirror and take my absence of anything resembling breasts to mean I haven't been eating too much!

Let's suppose that transgenderism is, as AZDuffman would have it, a mental illness; just for the sake of argument. Okay, if it were, then I am just doing what I can to make their lives more acceptable to them because they are dealing with their mental illness the best way they know how.

I don't think that being socially ostracized is going to help them very much at all. I don't think being insulted, disregarded or deliberately called something they don't identify with is going to be very helpful to them, which goes back to tolerance and empathy.

Evangelicals should try it sometime.

And, to whatever extent that it could possibly, be a mental illness, just for the purpose of argument, I'm not a mental health clinician, counselor, psychiatrist or psychologist...so I am not capable of treating transgenderism, or gender dysmorphia, even if I did accept that there was something there to treat, which I don't accept, necessarily. The best that I can do is not upset that person in the moment by showing them the same respect I'd show to anyone else.

Quote: rxwine

What does being attracted to someone have anything to do what the person is who is the object of desire is? By that reasoning people having sex with an animal says something about what the animal is?

Haha! I'd never thought of that one before. I hope you don't mind if I use that line in the future.

CONCLUSION

So, are transwomen women?

My conclusion is that my opinion of them is irrelevant, one way or another.

It's really not a question that does, or ever could, matter to me as much as it does to the trans individual in question.

More than that, I don't expect other people to define themselves based on what my opinions of them are. I wouldn't define myself by someone else's opinion of me. Someone might hear that I have a high voice (relative to my height and size---it's pretty average relative to male range, overall) and decide that I'm a homosexual. I know that I am not a homosexual, or even bisexual, so am I supposed to live dictated by my own perception and belief that I am heterosexual, or by theirs that would have me as a homosexual?

Ideally, my opinion would be completely irrelevant also to the trans person and they wouldn't need me to speak in a way that validates them. I certainly don't need anyone to validate me, so I should hope for all others that they become so secure in themselves one day.

In the meantime, their gender means more to them than it does me, so as a matter of fundamental respect, I will do the very simple thing they are asking.

Some Evangelicals could learn more about tolerance, but evidently, they're more concerned with, "Science," (at least, selectively) than they are with The Bible.

Many Evangelicals also seem to be showing a surprising interest in grammar, for some reason.

Also, AZDuffman, I'm not one to put myself so highly above others that I expect them to conform to my standards for them. I have to be completely honest with you: I've met a handful of transexual people in my time, and when it comes to hanging out with someone for an afternoon, I can't think of a single one of them that I wouldn't choose as opposed to you.

I simply don't see why this constant derision of others is necessary and I am so exhausted by all the pointless arguing everyone does. This is probably going to be the last that I have to say on this thread, which I tend to hope will be locked sooner than later. If I even wanted to read this discussion....which is the same as perhaps hundreds of discussions I've already read here and there....then I'd just go on DT.

There's still time for you to change and perhaps even embrace Matthew 22:39 and Matthew 5:43-48, but I doubt you will. I don't pray, but I'll be hoping for you. I hope you find the peace and the serenity that will enable you to love (or, like me, accept) more and judge less.

Quote: mcallister3200

It’s polite to treat people how they would like to be treated if it doesn’t hurt anyone else.

That said, I think an opinion with no bias built in would be: if this person’s skeleton was found after missing for years, would they be identified as a male or female skeleton?
link to original post

I don't expect to live for however many years, and even if I did, I don't expect that I would become an archaeologist, so why I should I care about the physiology of their skeleton?

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: AZDuffman

Because a man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man. Simple science.
link to original post

It's always amusing to me when right-wingers suddenly profess an interest in science. The party of anti-vax, anti-mask, anti-climate change, and drink bleach. But now suddenly science matters.

Yeah, I know that's political, but it needed to be said.

See y'all in X days.
link to original post

Pretty sure everyone already knows you get a seperate set of rules.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: mcallister3200

It’s polite to treat people how they would like to be treated if it doesn’t hurt anyone else.

That said, I think an opinion with no bias built in would be: if this person’s skeleton was found after missing for years, would they be identified as a male or female skeleton?
link to original post

I don't expect to live for however many years, and even if I did, I don't expect that I would become an archaeologist, so why I should I care about the physiology of their skeleton?
link to original post

You already know the point so I don’t know why I’m dumb enough to answer.

The truth is only any different while living if we decide, as we are as a society, to say that there is a major difference or distinction between biological sex and gender. Which becomes a social or physchological distinction rather than physical. And if that’s what’s best without hurting anyone else than so be it, but I don’t think derision of those that don’t accept there is a difference is justifiable.

Quote: mcallister3200

You already know the point so I don’t know why I’m dumb enough to answer.

The truth is only any different while living if we decide, as we are as a society, to say that there is a major difference or distinction between biological sex and gender. Which becomes a social or physchological distinction rather than physical. And if that’s what’s best without hurting anyone else than so be it, but I don’t think derision of those that don’t accept there is a difference is justifiable.
link to original post

The social contract is ever evolving. Hell, maybe these alternative pronouns will eventually take root to the extent that learning those becomes unavoidable, but I doubt it.

The only thing that I really know is that I see a group being attacked and I see a group doing the attacking. The group doing the attacking is the same as it ever was and will continue to lose at every turn. They're getting much closer to being considered a total laughingstock; I might even live to see it. I already know what I think about the group doing the attacking, so defending the group being attacked is pretty much a default response. Some of that could be my bias against religion, but I am finally starting to get better at differentiating between denominations and individuals, so that's growth.

Here's the thing: We're talking about what people should be called. It's a question of decorum and respect, not of what physically is or is not. That's why I say my opinion on whether or not a transwoman is, in fact, a woman (as I would personally define a woman) is irrelevant to how I should treat people.

Anyway, read between the lines on this one for me. If I thought a male--->female physically becomes a woman, then what possible problem could I have with them being in women's athletics? That said, it has nothing to do with me referring to the female-presenting cashier at the gas station as, "She/Her," when talking about her, or with referring to her by her chosen first name rather than what I know her first name used to be.

Quote: Mission146

Some of that could be my bias against religion, but I am finally starting to get better at differentiating between denominations and individuals, so that's growth.


link to original post

Maybe we should just go back to generalizing and bashing broad geographic regions instead? You take the southeast, I’ll take the metropolitan northeast?

A lot to weigh in here before the thread is closed. Probably will break it up so lets start with the science.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

Read that first I suppose.

Everything about men and women is different. Externally and internally. That should be obvious as it's one reason the one thing we all agree is that men excel at sports due to their build and musculature.

Internal organs are different hence females have childbirth organs (uterus and different bladder etc)

The same is true for the brain which needs to be different if it's going to control female vs male function (hormonal changes including during pregnancy as well as adolescent)

Those differences ARE measurable as shown in the article. You are born male with a male brain and vice versa.

And studies have shown transgender women generally have female brain composition. Thinner or thicker membranes etc that females have vs. male.

Literally that's proving physiologically what they say they feel. That they are women trapped in a man's body.

If they think and feel they are women and not due to some psychosis but am actual measurable SCIENTIFIC explanation pertaining to brain tissue makeup then, well, let's just say "science isn't so simple".

Which brings us to the next logical step. If a person is born a female trapped in a male body then when they change that body fully they should be considered female.

The you are what you are born response can be tested with other scenarios.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_from_blindness#:~:text=Recovery%20from%20blindness%20is%20the,referred%20to%20as%20Molyneux's%20problem.

People born blind can be given through medical treatment the ability to see. Ask yourself if you encountered this person if you would insist they were still blind because they were born that way?

Siamese twins are often separated at birth these days. Would you meet one and insist they are still Siamese twins? Yes you could argue they were BORN Siamese twins but insisting you refer to one as "them" and "they".

Once you accept that surgery can change what and how you are born, AND that trans women are born physically with female brain tissue, seeing them as women after surgery isn't that difficult.

I understand the homophobic aspects. I was 100% straight until my first experience with a transgender (my own crying game experience but without the Irish terrorism). All I can say is open your mind, do some research and don't assume science is so "simple".

edit: quote formatting

Quote: mcallister3200

Quote: Mission146

Some of that could be my bias against religion, but I am finally starting to get better at differentiating between denominations and individuals, so that's growth.


link to original post

Maybe we should just go back to generalizing and bashing broad geographic regions instead? You take the southeast, I’ll take the metropolitan northeast?
link to original post

Sure thing; I have no great affinity for the latter of those two areas.

Let's say for the sake of argument that science says transwomen are NOT women.

In that case, who gives a ****. It has literally zero effect on my life what someone calls themselves.

I find it very odd, and a little concerning, that the people who are so against LGBT things are sooooo obsessed with what those people do in the privacy of their own lives.

Darkoz,

Good post. I think that's relevant to everything except athletics. The benefits of having a male body as opposed to a female one cannot be ignored when it comes to fundamental fairness in competition.

Of course, some people will make the argument to just remove gender from all athletics, but I don't think I am being rude to suggest that would be extremely unfair to women.

Twitter temporarily suspended him for this tweet.

Early reports out of North Carolina indicate a group of people blacked out a large segment of the state to protest/prevent a drag show. Some 50,000plus people are without electricity a day later, after yahoos shoot up a couple of transformers.

It's their platform; they can suspend him for whatever they want.

He's the guy who essentially wants to point the finger at murder victims and blame them for the fact that they were murdered while they were out and about minding their own business. I feel bad for other Catholics in that this Walsh calls himself one.

I'm surprised it was temporary. I'd want nothing to do with him had I been Twitter, might scare major corporate advertisers away.

He also deliberately inflates numbers and presents false statistics to make his points. When you're a Conservative and Joe Rogan is calling out your BS, well, you can be sure that what you are saying is complete BS.

Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll. Nothing he says can be taken seriously.

Quote: TigerWu

Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll. Nothing he says can be taken seriously.
link to original post

I believe, between what I have read from AZDuffman and what I have heard Matt Walsh say, that AZ and Matt are in total lockstep just on the matters upon which I have seen both opine.

Just saying.

Most of my arguments around trans issue.

1. Whether someone you don't like or lifestyle is not appreciated should be able to live freely - Yes.

2. Whether said people are a corruptive influence on "normal"**people and children. Possibly, but then we really don't do much about corruptive influence from all sorts of people. Because many people want their own religious values practiced in schools, no reason there couldn't be an all trans value school (whatever that would be). If some people get to choose what morals they want to adhere to, then we all should. Parents are allowed to bend and sway their children's point of views a lot within the law. We can't save kids from bad parents until they break the law. Every lifestyle within the law should be allowed the same. Why pick on trans people.

3. Are trans real women? Are adoptive parents, Mom&Dads or do we call them fake mom&dad? I thought we moved beyond those kinds of limitations. You don't date them, why worry about it.

4. Are sports threatened by trans women competing because of ability? This is interesting. But I think this has to be approached much like when we can't accommodate every religious practice. You try to allow as much as possible and when it becomes unreasonable you just have to put some limits. While I believe blind people have just as much right to be a commercial pilot, it seems unreasonable try to build in the all the necessary equipment just for a small segment of society. A $15 million fighter jet is not going to be modified to fit a paraplegic even though I think they should have all the rights as regular people to do what they wish. Wheelchair ramp costs are reasonable. Rampant distribution of drugs for religious practice probably would be a compromise (Peyote use"?)

5. ** (use of normal above) Really, someone wants to prove they are normal. That you're exceptionally free of all issues. Good luck with that.

MOD, is this gambling or Vegas relate please?
Darkoz, please bring this kind of subject to somewhere else. Thanks.

I have been away from the forum for about 36 hours because of real life stuff. It is a head-slapper to return to this.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: TigerWu

Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll. Nothing he says can be taken seriously.
link to original post

I believe, between what I have read from AZDuffman and what I have heard Matt Walsh say, that AZ and Matt are in total lockstep just on the matters upon which I have seen both opine.

Just saying.
link to original post

Interesting way to implement a personal attack?

I don't know who Matt Walsh is. He could be the Last Jedi as far as I know. I'm not googling him.

But we have one member saying that "Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll"

I guess that's an acceptable insult to a non-member.

Then we have another member saying
"AZ and Matt are in total lockstep just on the matters upon which I have seen both opine. "

I wonder if AZD would agree with either or both of those assertions.
Was AZD just insulted?

Why do we members of a Las Vegas related gambling forum need to pass judgement on the character of any one person or class/group of people?
Isn't that against the spirit of the place?

This sub thread was never appropriate to the 'discussion-iii...' thread. Is it appropriate at all on this forum?

Just saying.

Quote: rxwine

3. Are trans real women? Are adoptive parents, Mom&Dads or do we call them fake mom&dad? I thought we moved beyond those kinds of limitations. You don't date them, why worry about it.
link to original post

My daughter rolled her eyes at me when I told a "Dad" joke (an impromptu pun, if memory serves, although it could have been a Spoonerism). That solidified our father-daughter relationship far more than a few seconds of gooey biology ever could.
She was 3.
I'd been dating her mother for about a year at that point.

Quote: speedycrap

MOD, is this gambling or Vegas relate please?
Darkoz, please bring this kind of subject to somewhere else. Thanks.
link to original post

DarkOz did not, technically, start the thread; it was split from the Suspension List thread.

Wizard has spoken and this thread will be locked later. Meantime, there is a button that says, "Block Thread," top left of any thread page. I'm not being sarcastic; I legitimately don't know if you knew you could block threads.

(This quote might have been accidentally slightly modified, but I don't think. I formatted my response wrong initially and tried to fix it.)

Quote: OnceDear

Interesting way to implement a personal attack?

I don't know who Matt Walsh is. He could be the Last Jedi as far as I know. I'm not googling him.

But we have one member saying that "Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll"

I guess that's an acceptable insult to a non-member.

Then we have another member saying
"AZ and Matt are in total lockstep just on the matters upon which I have seen both opine. "

I wonder if AZD would agree with either or both of those assertions.
Was AZD just insulted?

Why do we members of a Las Vegas related gambling forum need to pass judgement on the character of any one person or class/group of people?
Isn't that against the spirit of the place?

This sub thread was never appropriate to the 'discussion-iii...' thread. Is it appropriate at all on this forum?

Just saying.

There's no personal attack.

If you wish, I can gather AZDuffman quotes and then quote and link to the podcasts of Matt Walsh I have heard to objectively demonstrate that the opinions are substantially the same.

I didn't necessarily agree that Matt Walsh is a professional troll, and even if I had, I have no reason to even suspect that AZDuffman is a professional troll.

In fact, I think AZ posts his unfettered opinions with more honesty than most people. I believe everything he posts is 100% genuine. I just found it interesting that he agrees to such an extent with people who some seem to think are, "Professional trolls."

In order to be trolling, AZ would have to NOT believe what he is saying. Thus, I don't think AZDuffman is a troll, professionally or otherwise.

As far as passing judgment, AZDuffman fired the first shot, as Evangelicals usually do, I was just returning the favor. Evidently, I am some sort of social justice warrior, according to him.

Quote: speedycrap

MOD, is this gambling or Vegas relate please?
Darkoz, please bring this kind of subject to somewhere else. Thanks.
link to original post

The thread will be closed in less than 12 hours.
I think we're being allowed a chance to get it out of our systems.

As they say, Today is almost over.

Quote: TigerWu

Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll. Nothing he says can be taken seriously.

I have no idea who he is. I posted it because I felt it is relevant to the topic of the thread. Is there anything inaccurate in what the said?

Quote: Mission146

Quote: speedycrap

MOD, is this gambling or Vegas relate please?
Darkoz, please bring this kind of subject to somewhere else. Thanks.
link to original post

DarkOz did not, technically, start the thread; it was split from the Suspension List thread.

Wizard has spoken and this thread will be locked later. Meantime, there is a button that says, "Block Thread," top left of any thread page. I'm not being sarcastic; I legitimately don't know if you knew you could block threads.
link to original post

1 I dont like to block anything or/and anyone. I like to live in the real world but not a small bubble. In life, we always come across something we dont like/ agree. This kind of topic will only create argument for the sake of arguing. I enjoy this forum very much cause it provides a lot of insight of gambling and Vegas. I hope this forum will keep it this way for the future. Thanks for the reply.

It's gambling related.

Go pick up a hot chick dressed and made up to the nines at your favorite club.

You are gambling on what may pop out of her panties.

At any rate this thread closes at 8pm.

Now is that Eastern standard time, Pacific or central?

Quote: darkoz

It's gambling related.

Go pick up a hot chick dressed and made up to the nines at your favorite club.

You are gambling on what may pop out of her panties.

At any rate this thread closes at 8pm.

Now is that Eastern standard time, Pacific or central?
link to original post

Yes, if u structured your topic like asking/posting odds. Just stop arguing and let it go.

Quote: OnceDear

Quote: Mission146

Quote: TigerWu

Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll. Nothing he says can be taken seriously.
link to original post

I believe, between what I have read from AZDuffman and what I have heard Matt Walsh say, that AZ and Matt are in total lockstep just on the matters upon which I have seen both opine.

Just saying.
link to original post

Interesting way to implement a personal attack?

I don't know who Matt Walsh is. He could be the Last Jedi as far as I know. I'm not googling him.

But we have one member saying that "Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll"

I guess that's an acceptable insult to a non-member.

Then we have another member saying
"AZ and Matt are in total lockstep just on the matters upon which I have seen both opine. "

I wonder if AZD would agree with either or both of those assertions.
Was AZD just insulted?

Why do we members of a Las Vegas related gambling forum need to pass judgement on the character of any one person or class/group of people?
Isn't that against the spirit of the place?

This sub thread was never appropriate to the 'discussion-iii...' thread. Is it appropriate at all on this forum?

Just saying.
link to original post

I likewise do not know or care who Matt Walsh is. I

Most message boards I've been to, reposting a thread after a moderator locked it is a bannable offense. Why was this thread allowed to exist in the first place? I wonder what gordon thinks of his moderation being undermined like that.

Quote: Tanko

Quote: TigerWu

Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll. Nothing he says can be taken seriously.

I have no idea who he is. I posted it because I felt it is relevant to the topic of the thread. Is there anything inaccurate in what the said?


link to original post

I don't know any details about that specific post, but I have seen a lot of his other posts and watched videos of him, and he's a huge scumbag.

Quote: Deucekies

Most message boards I've been to, reposting a thread after a moderator locked it is a bannable offense. Why was this thread allowed to exist in the first place? I wonder what gordon thinks of his moderation being undermined like that.
link to original post

This thread was never locked. (Nor did I create it)

It's a Wizard sanctioned split from the suspension thread 3 which Wizard has given an open forum until 8pm (central? Time).

Either way why the animosity. If you don't like the discussion ignore it.

Quote: OnceDear

I don't know who Matt Walsh is. He could be the Last Jedi as far as I know. I'm not googling him.link to original post

Odd that you bring up Last Jedi.

The Venn diagram of men online who harass trans women and men online who bitch about The Last Jedi ruining their childhood is a perfect circle.

Quote: darkoz

This thread was never locked. (Nor did I create it)

It's a Wizard sanctioned split from the suspension thread 3 which Wizard has given an open forum until 8pm (central? Time).

Either way why the animosity. If you don't like the discussion ignore it.
link to original post

Pacific time zone was specified as PST, although the time reckoning may move as far east as Kiribati if things get truly out of hand.

Quote: ams288

Quote: OnceDear

I don't know who Matt Walsh is. He could be the Last Jedi as far as I know. I'm not googling him.link to original post

Odd that you bring up Last Jedi.

The Venn diagram of men online who harass trans women and men online who bitch about The Last Jedi ruining their childhood is a perfect circle.
link to original post

If the Internet existed in 1980 as it exists today, you'd see people complaining about Empire Strikes Back having a strong female lead and Lando being cast as a black man, and how "George Lucas is ruining science fiction movies." LOL

Quote: Dieter

Quote: darkoz

This thread was never locked. (Nor did I create it)

It's a Wizard sanctioned split from the suspension thread 3 which Wizard has given an open forum until 8pm (central? Time).

Either way why the animosity. If you don't like the discussion ignore it.
link to original post

Pacific time zone was specified as PST, although the time reckoning may move as far east as Kiribati if things get truly out of hand.
link to original post

Even though voting for things on how the forum is run is almost never requested I put a vote in for temporary topic.

For instance, smoking in casinos, can evolve into smoking and health generally. Or talking about Vegas strip clubs might evolve into prostitution for instance.

I vote for a 'day of permission' where the topic is open for 24 hours. Then after that, mods can announce topic is closed forever, for 6 months or whatever.

I think you do it if you have at least 4 or more people. Because otherwise there would be too many threads that are just pissing contests between two people.

As to sports.

I'm divided. One can imagine if Bruce Jenner had transitioned at 16 and then entered the female decathlon (is there a female decathlon?)

I think the general thought is Dr. Frank N. Furter complete in garters competing against female athletes.

Men in drag would definitely have an advantage.

But trans women don't just go and have their gender removed on a whim . They actually go through years of hormonal treatment.

Female hormones (Estrogen I believe) is given on a regular basis. They're skin naturally softens over time, their shape feminizes, their breasts grow (some as large as a natural B cup), their male hormones become reduced to the point many cannot produce sperm properly and/or perform like a man.

My point is by the time a post op transgender would perform in sports the playing field between her and a natural born woman has been leveled to some extent. Perhaps because of how the trans gender changed a natural born woman might actually have the upper hand.

This isn't a case of big brawny muscle bound dudes in a dress competing.

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Dieter

Quote: darkoz

This thread was never locked. (Nor did I create it)

It's a Wizard sanctioned split from the suspension thread 3 which Wizard has given an open forum until 8pm (central? Time).

Either way why the animosity. If you don't like the discussion ignore it.
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Pacific time zone was specified as PST, although the time reckoning may move as far east as Kiribati if things get truly out of hand.
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Even though voting for things on how the forum is run is almost never requested I put a vote in for temporary topic.

For instance, smoking in casinos, can evolve into smoking and health generally. Or talking about Vegas strip clubs might evolve into prostitution for instance.

I vote for a 'day of permission' where the topic is open for 24 hours. Then after that, mods can announce topic is closed forever, for 6 months or whatever.

I think you do it if you have at least 4 or more people. Because otherwise there would be too many threads that are just pissing contests between two people.
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A bit over 8 hours remaining on the current temporary topic.

I think anyone eager to discuss it beyond that can probably carry it to DT. This offshoot really isn't Vegas, gambling, nor math, despite humorous allusions to all three.

Quote: Tanko

Quote: TigerWu

Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll. Nothing he says can be taken seriously.

I have no idea who he is. I posted it because I felt it is relevant to the topic of the thread. Is there anything inaccurate in what the said?


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Wrong? Perhaps not.

I think mentioning the greatest, "Female Jeopardy Champion," being a man is both unnecessary and somewhat insulting to women as it implies that men have some sort of absolute advantage in something like Jeopardy.

In my opinion, Jeopardy is not a game in which gender necessarily offers a great competitive advantage, so I don't think gender is particularly relevant. They certainly don't have men's and women's Jeopardy, and you would think they would, if being a man was an automatic sizable advantage.

Also, it's not as if the other contestants went on and lost so a transwoman would win on Jeopardy to be, 'Woke,' or whatever. She just went on there and beat everyone else at the game. I see something like Jeopardy as totally different to declaring a transwoman the, "Woman of the Year," or having them win a beauty pageant (which I admit is subjective) when most people would agree (still subjective) that the transgendered person was not the most beautiful in the pageant.

So, I think she performed well on Jeopardy just because she performed well on Jeopardy. I think Miss Nevada was just to make a political point.

I've stated my opinion on athletics, especially amateur athletics, so would agree with Walsh there...though I wouldn't go out of my way to use the word, "Man."

The Four-Star Admiral, similar to Jeopardy. I don't see what about that is such that gender even matters. It would be like me caring about the first Four Star Admiral of public health being a 6'3" dude of German/Irish descent, or something. Sometimes, religious people care significantly more about gender than do the LGBTQ advocates.

High school track, athletics, so agree. Although, those people weren't men or women the better part of that time, because they were minors. Then again, I'm not sure that Matt Walsh is a fan of age of consent laws, so maybe he sees high school athletes as fully developed men and women.

They haven't dominated the female MMA circuit, so that statement is objectively false. Anyway:

1.) When it comes to one on one athletics, I feel like you should be allowed to compete against whomever you wish, with the agreement of both participants.

2.) If you are a woman and refuse to compete against a transwoman one on one, then you should face no sanction whatsoever.

3.) There have been, far as I can tell, TWO transwomen MMA fighters. The first, Fallon Fox, is not particularly good at fighting and just tried to overwhelm her smaller female opponents with significantly more physical strength, largely brought about by bone density, imo. Fox no longer fights, retired with a record of 5-1 and has no significant career accomplishments. Fox's lack of actual prowess in the cage was exposed by the much faster, and more technically sound, Ashlee Evans-Smith...who herself is 6-5...which tells you Fox lost to someone who isn't a world-beater, or anything.

The other transgender fighter, whose name I forget, is 1-0 and hasn't really done anything of note in that they have only been in one fight.

So, I do disagree with that last part of Walsh's statement. I also accept it as evidence that Matt Walsh is too biased to either do any fact-checking, or did do fact-checking, but wants to overstate the case, as he so often does, in order to put transwomen in a negative light.

Quote: Deucekies

Most message boards I've been to, reposting a thread after a moderator locked it is a bannable offense. Why was this thread allowed to exist in the first place? I wonder what gordon thinks of his moderation being undermined like that.
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I have no idea. It was split off from the Suspension List thread, so a Moderator must have done that action. Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine and I wasn't aware that it had been locked. In fact, I wasn't aware of a separate thread's existence until this morning.

Quote: Deucekies

Most message boards I've been to, reposting a thread after a moderator locked it is a bannable offense. Why was this thread allowed to exist in the first place? I wonder what gordon thinks of his moderation being undermined like that.
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I was away for a while and I admit that I am trying to catch up on what has happened. But, as a moderator, I work for Wizard and he seems to have been the one who has taken some of the critical actions here. I don't feel undermined; I simply recognize that some policies are being newly formulated or some old policies are being changed. Once the dust settles, I'll learn what I need to know and go forward. This is not about me.

Quote: Mission146

I have no idea. It was split off from the Suspension List thread, so a Moderator must have done that action. Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine and I wasn't aware that it had been locked. In fact, I wasn't aware of a separate thread's existence until this morning.
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Yes, it was a split-off from the discussion about the suspension list thread, as it was seen as off-topic.

Seven more hours.

I would like to remind the forum that this is not a free-speech zone, but the topic confined to issues of gender identity.

My HS had male & female swim teams. But one female was just so good, she joined the boys swim team. She had to have some time alone in the boy's locker room to change. She was not transgender, not a boy, but she was tall & lanky and probably could use the competition of the other top swimmers on the boys team. This was back in the late 1970's and it was an utter exception, but we had Olympic hopefuls on our boys swim team. Our team members had many swim records on every swim tote board in every school in our region.

When you really think about it, dividing up sports between "men" and "women" has nothing to do with sex or gender.... it has to do with talent and physical attributes.

I don't know how we should deal with transpeople in sports. It's still a very new discussion and I doubt many of us here, if anyone, has the necessary professional medical, scientific, and sports backgrounds to have an informed opinion on the subject.

Quote: TigerWu

When you really think about it, dividing up sports between "men" and "women" has nothing to do with sex or gender.... it has to do with talent and physical attributes.

I don't know how we should deal with transpeople in sports. It's still a very new discussion and I doubt many of us here, if anyone, has the necessary professional medical, scientific, and sports backgrounds to have an informed opinion on the subject.
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Easy to have an informed opinion You compete in your birth gender. End of story. No whining. Don't like it, sit in the stands.

A few trans do not like it? Boo hoo hoo. Its spots, their lives will move on.

If somebody wants to be called a woman, they should be called a woman it's as simple as that.

The respect argument is the strongest, we can get in the weeds about what defines gender versus sex versus perceptions of it, but none of that really matters.

If somebody wants to alter their body through chemicals and/or surgery, that is their right. Nobody is going to force you to respect their choice, but polite discourse goes a long way.

People only are publicly disparaging on trans people when they feel they have the power -IE somebody is lesser than them in their mind- (for reasons I don't understand, I guess it gives them a power trip), if your boss was trans, or somebody in the military who outranked you was trans, I guarantee you would use their desired pronouns.... But the sad reality is it gives many people a power trip to just be rude....

I guarantee many of the "straight guys" on here have been turned on by attractive women who transitioned, and did not think twice of it, but if they had known they would act like they were revolted by their presence..... Its just another subjective superiority issue....