Are Transwomen Women

As to sports.

I'm divided. One can imagine if Bruce Jenner had transitioned at 16 and then entered the female decathlon (is there a female decathlon?)

I think the general thought is Dr. Frank N. Furter complete in garters competing against female athletes.

Men in drag would definitely have an advantage.

But trans women don't just go and have their gender removed on a whim . They actually go through years of hormonal treatment.

Female hormones (Estrogen I believe) is given on a regular basis. They're skin naturally softens over time, their shape feminizes, their breasts grow (some as large as a natural B cup), their male hormones become reduced to the point many cannot produce sperm properly and/or perform like a man.

My point is by the time a post op transgender would perform in sports the playing field between her and a natural born woman has been leveled to some extent. Perhaps because of how the trans gender changed a natural born woman might actually have the upper hand.

This isn't a case of big brawny muscle bound dudes in a dress competing.

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Dieter

Quote: darkoz

This thread was never locked. (Nor did I create it)

It's a Wizard sanctioned split from the suspension thread 3 which Wizard has given an open forum until 8pm (central? Time).

Either way why the animosity. If you don't like the discussion ignore it.
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Pacific time zone was specified as PST, although the time reckoning may move as far east as Kiribati if things get truly out of hand.
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Even though voting for things on how the forum is run is almost never requested I put a vote in for temporary topic.

For instance, smoking in casinos, can evolve into smoking and health generally. Or talking about Vegas strip clubs might evolve into prostitution for instance.

I vote for a 'day of permission' where the topic is open for 24 hours. Then after that, mods can announce topic is closed forever, for 6 months or whatever.

I think you do it if you have at least 4 or more people. Because otherwise there would be too many threads that are just pissing contests between two people.
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A bit over 8 hours remaining on the current temporary topic.

I think anyone eager to discuss it beyond that can probably carry it to DT. This offshoot really isn't Vegas, gambling, nor math, despite humorous allusions to all three.

Quote: Tanko

Quote: TigerWu

Matt Walsh is basically a professional troll. Nothing he says can be taken seriously.

I have no idea who he is. I posted it because I felt it is relevant to the topic of the thread. Is there anything inaccurate in what the said?


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Wrong? Perhaps not.

I think mentioning the greatest, "Female Jeopardy Champion," being a man is both unnecessary and somewhat insulting to women as it implies that men have some sort of absolute advantage in something like Jeopardy.

In my opinion, Jeopardy is not a game in which gender necessarily offers a great competitive advantage, so I don't think gender is particularly relevant. They certainly don't have men's and women's Jeopardy, and you would think they would, if being a man was an automatic sizable advantage.

Also, it's not as if the other contestants went on and lost so a transwoman would win on Jeopardy to be, 'Woke,' or whatever. She just went on there and beat everyone else at the game. I see something like Jeopardy as totally different to declaring a transwoman the, "Woman of the Year," or having them win a beauty pageant (which I admit is subjective) when most people would agree (still subjective) that the transgendered person was not the most beautiful in the pageant.

So, I think she performed well on Jeopardy just because she performed well on Jeopardy. I think Miss Nevada was just to make a political point.

I've stated my opinion on athletics, especially amateur athletics, so would agree with Walsh there...though I wouldn't go out of my way to use the word, "Man."

The Four-Star Admiral, similar to Jeopardy. I don't see what about that is such that gender even matters. It would be like me caring about the first Four Star Admiral of public health being a 6'3" dude of German/Irish descent, or something. Sometimes, religious people care significantly more about gender than do the LGBTQ advocates.

High school track, athletics, so agree. Although, those people weren't men or women the better part of that time, because they were minors. Then again, I'm not sure that Matt Walsh is a fan of age of consent laws, so maybe he sees high school athletes as fully developed men and women.

They haven't dominated the female MMA circuit, so that statement is objectively false. Anyway:

1.) When it comes to one on one athletics, I feel like you should be allowed to compete against whomever you wish, with the agreement of both participants.

2.) If you are a woman and refuse to compete against a transwoman one on one, then you should face no sanction whatsoever.

3.) There have been, far as I can tell, TWO transwomen MMA fighters. The first, Fallon Fox, is not particularly good at fighting and just tried to overwhelm her smaller female opponents with significantly more physical strength, largely brought about by bone density, imo. Fox no longer fights, retired with a record of 5-1 and has no significant career accomplishments. Fox's lack of actual prowess in the cage was exposed by the much faster, and more technically sound, Ashlee Evans-Smith...who herself is 6-5...which tells you Fox lost to someone who isn't a world-beater, or anything.

The other transgender fighter, whose name I forget, is 1-0 and hasn't really done anything of note in that they have only been in one fight.

So, I do disagree with that last part of Walsh's statement. I also accept it as evidence that Matt Walsh is too biased to either do any fact-checking, or did do fact-checking, but wants to overstate the case, as he so often does, in order to put transwomen in a negative light.

Quote: Deucekies

Most message boards I've been to, reposting a thread after a moderator locked it is a bannable offense. Why was this thread allowed to exist in the first place? I wonder what gordon thinks of his moderation being undermined like that.
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I have no idea. It was split off from the Suspension List thread, so a Moderator must have done that action. Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine and I wasn't aware that it had been locked. In fact, I wasn't aware of a separate thread's existence until this morning.

Quote: Deucekies

Most message boards I've been to, reposting a thread after a moderator locked it is a bannable offense. Why was this thread allowed to exist in the first place? I wonder what gordon thinks of his moderation being undermined like that.
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I was away for a while and I admit that I am trying to catch up on what has happened. But, as a moderator, I work for Wizard and he seems to have been the one who has taken some of the critical actions here. I don't feel undermined; I simply recognize that some policies are being newly formulated or some old policies are being changed. Once the dust settles, I'll learn what I need to know and go forward. This is not about me.

Quote: Mission146

I have no idea. It was split off from the Suspension List thread, so a Moderator must have done that action. Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine and I wasn't aware that it had been locked. In fact, I wasn't aware of a separate thread's existence until this morning.
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Yes, it was a split-off from the discussion about the suspension list thread, as it was seen as off-topic.

Seven more hours.

I would like to remind the forum that this is not a free-speech zone, but the topic confined to issues of gender identity.

My HS had male & female swim teams. But one female was just so good, she joined the boys swim team. She had to have some time alone in the boy's locker room to change. She was not transgender, not a boy, but she was tall & lanky and probably could use the competition of the other top swimmers on the boys team. This was back in the late 1970's and it was an utter exception, but we had Olympic hopefuls on our boys swim team. Our team members had many swim records on every swim tote board in every school in our region.

When you really think about it, dividing up sports between "men" and "women" has nothing to do with sex or gender.... it has to do with talent and physical attributes.

I don't know how we should deal with transpeople in sports. It's still a very new discussion and I doubt many of us here, if anyone, has the necessary professional medical, scientific, and sports backgrounds to have an informed opinion on the subject.

Quote: TigerWu

When you really think about it, dividing up sports between "men" and "women" has nothing to do with sex or gender.... it has to do with talent and physical attributes.

I don't know how we should deal with transpeople in sports. It's still a very new discussion and I doubt many of us here, if anyone, has the necessary professional medical, scientific, and sports backgrounds to have an informed opinion on the subject.
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Easy to have an informed opinion You compete in your birth gender. End of story. No whining. Don't like it, sit in the stands.

A few trans do not like it? Boo hoo hoo. Its spots, their lives will move on.

If somebody wants to be called a woman, they should be called a woman it's as simple as that.

The respect argument is the strongest, we can get in the weeds about what defines gender versus sex versus perceptions of it, but none of that really matters.

If somebody wants to alter their body through chemicals and/or surgery, that is their right. Nobody is going to force you to respect their choice, but polite discourse goes a long way.

People only are publicly disparaging on trans people when they feel they have the power -IE somebody is lesser than them in their mind- (for reasons I don't understand, I guess it gives them a power trip), if your boss was trans, or somebody in the military who outranked you was trans, I guarantee you would use their desired pronouns.... But the sad reality is it gives many people a power trip to just be rude....

I guarantee many of the "straight guys" on here have been turned on by attractive women who transitioned, and did not think twice of it, but if they had known they would act like they were revolted by their presence..... Its just another subjective superiority issue....