False Claims by Downtown Grand
http://vegasseven.com/2016/05/19/better-video-keno-downtown-grand/
The article states "In an email sent to players last month, the Grand claimed to offer the “loosest video keno payables” in town (at Furnace bar only), and it does!"
I'm not sure if "loosest" falls under a claim a casino must prove, but it is not accurate. El Cortez offers better video keno than that. The machines that spread the looser pay tables across many games even show the percentage return for the game on the screen as you go from game to game and between denominations. Dotty's has looser video keno pay tables, too.
I recall Wizard challenging a claim through Gaming by FSE or maybe it was Las Vegas Club. I can't find that article. I alerted DTG that their claim was inaccurate but they didn't respond.
Does anyone have this email Vegas Seven quotes?
Edit: I can't fix the typo in the title. It is only one claim, I suppose.
Did you check all the keno paytables? I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the fact that it's come out that Plaza has "good Video keno".Quote: PokeraddictI saw a story at Vegas Seven that Downtown Grand upgraded keno payouts to 95%.
http://vegasseven.com/2016/05/19/better-video-keno-downtown-grand/
The article states "In an email sent to players last month, the Grand claimed to offer the “loosest video keno payables” in town (at Furnace bar only), and it does!"
I'm not sure if "loosest" falls under a claim a casino must prove, but it is not accurate. El Cortez offers better video keno than that. The machines that spread the looser pay tables across many games even show the percentage return for the game on the screen as you go from game to game and between denominations. Dotty's has looser video keno pay tables, too.
I recall Wizard challenging a claim through Gaming by FSE or maybe it was Las Vegas Club. I can't find that article. I alerted DTG that their claim was inaccurate but they didn't respond.
Does anyone have this email Vegas Seven quotes?
Casinos should have to prove their claims.
I wondered if Plaza would beat DTG but I figured once I found the claim to be inaccurate there wasn't much point in looking for more. I knew it was a dubious claim as soon as I read that V7 article.
I don't play or survey video keno and knew that 95% wasn't the best video keno out there. I would think DTG would have done at least a little homework before putting that out there in promotional material.
Quote: PokeraddictI took Anthony Curtis' article at face value where he broke down the DTG keno pay tables. I assumed hos work to be accurate but maybe I shouldn't have? The El Cortez machines with the better pay tables display the RTP. I went there last night to confirm those devices were still installed at EC and they were.
I wondered if Plaza would beat DTG but I figured once I found the claim to be inaccurate there wasn't much point in looking for more. I knew it was a dubious claim as soon as I read that V7 article.
I don't play or survey video keno and knew that 95% wasn't the best video keno out there. I would think DTG would have done at least a little homework before putting that out there in promotional material.
I highly doubt DTG has better paytables on VP, that's a stretch for sure unless they drastically changed something.
It's worth checking out.
There need to be more generous with free play IMO.
DTG 8/5 bonus was the best I thought they had.
Plaza has 100.65 and lots of 9/6
Quote: AxelWolfI highly doubt DTG has better paytables on VP, that's a stretch for sure unless they drastically changed something.
DTG 8/5 bonus was the best I thought they had.
Plaza has 100.65 and lots of 9/6
The claim about "loosest" only applied to video keno.
I might remind you that when the Vegas Club claimed to have the loosest slots downtown and failed to back up the claim, I complained to Gaming. A couple weeks later the Vegas Club changed the word "loosest" to "best," which was okay with me.
Why is best ok? Best selection i'll accept.Quote: WizardCan anybody show me something directly from the Grand that states the have the most liberal video keno? I'd prefer to not go off of heresay if I do a big investigation to confirm or deny this.
I might remind you that when the Vegas Club claimed to have the loosest slots downtown and failed to back up the claim, I complained to Gaming. A couple weeks later the Vegas Club changed the word "loosest" to "best," which was okay with me.
Quote: WizardCan anybody show me something directly from the Grand that states the have the most liberal video keno? I'd prefer to not go off of heresay if I do a big investigation to confirm or deny this.
I might remind you that when the Vegas Club claimed to have the loosest slots downtown and failed to back up the claim, I complained to Gaming. A couple weeks later the Vegas Club changed the word "loosest" to "best," which was okay with me.
That is why I asked if anybody had the copy of the email quoted in the Vegas Seven article. It apparently went out to players club members a month ago. I'm only going by the article. I suppose the author has a copy of it.
If you want to see the video keno that is higher than 95%, there are three U1 machines right by the video blackjack and roulette machines at El Cortez. For $.50, you get 95% RTP. Each quarter more you bet increases RTP to as high as 98%. There are several keno titles like this. Every Dotty's I've ever checked out had these same machines with the same keno pay tables.
Those machines have been in El Cortez for a year or so. I believe they are the same ones that were once in Las Vegas Club where they were for several years.
Quote: AxelWolfI highly doubt DTG has better paytables on VP, that's a stretch for sure unless they drastically changed something.
It's worth checking out.
There need to be more generous with free play IMO.
DTG 8/5 bonus was the best I thought they had.
Plaza has 100.65 and lots of 9/6
Downtown grand actually put in at least a dozen 9/6 jacks. But nothing above single line quarters....so wouldn't really matter for you but competitive for low stakes rec player with other downtown places now.
I was thinking $1 as far as 9/6.Quote: mcallister3200Downtown grand actually put in at least a dozen 9/6 jacks. But nothing above single line quarters....so wouldn't really matter for you but competitive for low stakes rec player with other downtown places now.
I thought DTG was going to embrace skillgaming?
Quote: AxelWolfWhy is best ok? Best selection i'll accept.
"Best" is such an overused and tired word when it comes to advertising. I could say I'm the "best" looking guy on the forum, which is totally absurd, but there is no way to legally disprove it.
Quote: Wizard"Best" is such an overused and tired word when it comes to advertising. I could say I'm the "best" looking guy on the forum, which is totally absurd, but there is no way to legally disprove it.
I am reminded of a term called "commercial puffing". If my hamburger stand has a billboard that says "best hamburgers in the world", that is considered commercial puffing and not false advertising, especially when my hamburgers suck.
Nobody's built them any product yet. But the CEO of the Grand's ownership group is also on the board of GameCo so I'd expect GameCo to put in something this year, hopefully before G2E: http://gco.ggQuote: AxelWolfI thought DTG was going to embrace skillgaming?
Quote: AxelWolfI was thinking $1 as far as 9/6.
I thought DTG was going to embrace skillgaming?
How is Lola's for Video keno?
Quote: WizardofnothingWizard- best looking is subjective/ best video poker is clearly a come on
The Vegas Club could argue their slots are best because they are the most fun, must lucky, or they offer the best service.
But we both know what they are trying to infer
Quote: PokeraddictThat is why I asked if anybody had the copy of the email quoted in the Vegas Seven article. It apparently went out to players club members a month ago. I'm only going by the article. I suppose the author has a copy of it.
If you want to see the video keno that is higher than 95%, there are three U1 machines right by the video blackjack and roulette machines at El Cortez. For $.50, you get 95% RTP. Each quarter more you bet increases RTP to as high as 98%. There are several keno titles like this. Every Dotty's I've ever checked out had these same machines with the same keno pay tables.
Those machines have been in El Cortez for a year or so. I believe they are the same ones that were once in Las Vegas Club where they were for several years.
So maybe DTG has the loosest IGT Keno machines? ;)
Quote: WizardThe Vegas Club could argue their slots are best because they are the most fun, must lucky, or they offer the best service.
Before they closed, it was a great place for AP's in terms of slots.
So when I went to Vegas I looked at a lot of 6-spot progressives in town. I found many in bars, some in casinos. A couple variations on the pay table, but the meters were all slow. Some ridiculously slow. I did find one in a major casino that pencilled in at almost 98%. But why not stick a 2% meter on it, there's plenty of room, and advertise it? If I had a gambling bar in Vegas, I'd put a progressive 6-spot on all 15 machines and have a scrolling or flashing marquee on the wall showing off the $3000 jackpot for six. I'd invite all professionals, roll out the red carpet for them.
Quote: tringlomaneSo maybe DTG has the loosest IGT Keno machines? ;)
Maybe, but that doesn't to seem to be what they are saying. I wonder what the RTP is on those old coin operated IGT dauber keno machines. They must be pretty good or else I can't figure out why anyone would bother playing them.
Interesting you should ask that. I think I know what you are getting at.Quote: JIMMYFOCKERHow is Lola's for Video keno?
Quote: bobbartopChanging the subject slightly, I don't understand why they wouldn't put out a progressive 6-spot with a fast meter. I remember a few years back I would never imagine myself playing video keno. But I discovered some off-brand games in California Indian casinos where there was positive EV on some relatively easy-to-hit keno situations. I hit my first one over $800 that figured in at about 1.5% to the good and I didn't have to think like in video poker, I just pressed a button, and I could see it could be like crack It was fun.
So when I went to Vegas I looked at a lot of 6-spot progressives in town. I found many in bars, some in casinos. A couple variations on the pay table, but the meters were all slow. Some ridiculously slow. I did find one in a major casino that pencilled in at almost 98%. But why not stick a 2% meter on it, there's plenty of room, and advertise it? If I had a gambling bar in Vegas, I'd put a progressive 6-spot on all 15 machines and have a scrolling or flashing marquee on the wall showing off the $3000 jackpot for six. I'd invite all professionals, roll out the red carpet for them.
Set the paytable to be somewhere in the 90-95% range, then a 2-5% meter. I'd like that.
But chances are, pros would get on it and snap off the regulars. That's bad for the casino, because pros don't "spend" their money at the casino, while a regular gambler will (very likely, IMO) give that money back. At least, that's my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
Quote: RSSet the paytable to be somewhere in the 90-95% range, then a 2-5% meter. I'd like that.
But chances are, pros would get on it and snap off the regulars. That's bad for the casino, because pros don't "spend" their money at the casino, while a regular gambler will (very likely, IMO) give that money back. At least, that's my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
I think the most common 6-spot pay table I have seen goes like 3-4-70-1600. And that's 92%, off the top of my head. Then there were a few I found in Vegas that went 3-4-75-1600. A little better. I've found some in California with 3-4-75-1660, I think. Anyway, at 92% that leaves a ton of room for the casino, it'd be like a video poker progressive with such a low base game, but a win-win for the casino and the APs with a fast meter. Instead, these fools have meters like 1/4 of a percent. It just ain't never going to get positive at that rate.
But I agree with you about the pros snapping off regulars, that's why casinos don't like teams. It's all idiotic, though. There ain't nothing like a super high progressive and a bunch of APs in a feeding frenzy, banging away, and with a strategy tweeked for the higher jackpot. The meter is churning so fast it's a blur, and the casino makes gobs of money, but they don't want that. So near sighted.
Great thing about a 6-spot is it's only like 7000 to 1, instead of 40,000 for a royal. I think it would be very popular.
Quote: bobbartopI think the most common 6-spot pay table I have seen goes like 3-4-70-1600. And that's 92%, off the top of my head. Then there were a few I found in Vegas that went 3-4-75-1600. A little better. I've found some in California with 3-4-75-1660, I think. Anyway, at 92% that leaves a ton of room for the casino, it'd be like a video poker progressive with such a low base game, but a win-win for the casino and the APs with a fast meter. Instead, these fools have meters like 1/4 of a percent. It just ain't never going to get positive at that rate.
But I agree with you about the pros snapping off regulars, that's why casinos don't like teams. It's all idiotic, though. There ain't nothing like a super high progressive and a bunch of APs in a feeding frenzy, banging away, and with a strategy tweeked for the higher jackpot. The meter is churning so fast it's a blur, and the casino makes gobs of money, but they don't want that. So near sighted.
Great thing about a 6-spot is it's only like 7000 to 1, instead of 40,000 for a royal. I think it would be very popular.
If the game (keno) is +EV, the casino isn't making money anymore. If it's +EV for the pros, what makes you think the casino is making money (at that point)? Although, they've already made their money -- they make their money when the meter is between base (1600 or whatever base reset is) and until it gets to break-even. After the break-even point, they're just losing money. Fortunately for the casino, they've already made more money than they're going to lose.
Quote: bobbartopChanging the subject slightly, I don't understand why they wouldn't put out a progressive 6-spot with a fast meter. I remember a few years back I would never imagine myself playing video keno. But I discovered some off-brand games in California Indian casinos where there was positive EV on some relatively easy-to-hit keno situations. I hit my first one over $800 that figured in at about 1.5% to the good and I didn't have to think like in video poker, I just pressed a button, and I could see it could be like crack It was fun.
So when I went to Vegas I looked at a lot of 6-spot progressives in town. I found many in bars, some in casinos. A couple variations on the pay table, but the meters were all slow. Some ridiculously slow. I did find one in a major casino that pencilled in at almost 98%. But why not stick a 2% meter on it, there's plenty of room, and advertise it? If I had a gambling bar in Vegas, I'd put a progressive 6-spot on all 15 machines and have a scrolling or flashing marquee on the wall showing off the $3000 jackpot for six. I'd invite all professionals, roll out the red carpet for them.
It would be good if this would occur
Quote: RSIf the game (keno) is +EV, the casino isn't making money anymore. If it's +EV for the pros, what makes you think the casino is making money (at that point)? Although, they've already made their money -- they make their money when the meter is between base (1600 or whatever base reset is) and until it gets to break-even. After the break-even point, they're just losing money. Fortunately for the casino, they've already made more money than they're going to lose.
It depends how you look at it. From that perspective, you would be right.
However, I think the way most professional land casinos view it, correctly, is that the money that goes to the meter is not going to the casino but they are just holding it until somebody wins. For example, a 95% base game with a 2% meter rise would just be a 97% game to the casino. When I design progressive slots, I certainly count the meter rise as part of the return to the player. So, if this hypothetical progressive slot got over 100% from the player's perspective, the casino would still see it making a 3% profit, because part of what puts it over 100% is not their money.
Nevertheless, I know many Internet casinos don't see it that way. When somebody hits a big progressive they sing the blues, like it is their money that is gone. I try to explain that they should hold that progressive money in a separate pot and not get emotionally attached to it, but I can only lead a horse to water.
Quote: RSIf the game (keno) is +EV, the casino isn't making money anymore. If it's +EV for the pros, what makes you think the casino is making money (at that point)? Although, they've already made their money -- they make their money when the meter is between base (1600 or whatever base reset is) and until it gets to break-even. After the break-even point, they're just losing money. Fortunately for the casino, they've already made more money than they're going to lose.
I know it was difficult for me to understand this with video poker when I first started. In fact, it's still a little confusing to me. The progressive is banked and will never go to the casino. A 7-5 Bonus Poker progressive at 98% with perfect play will continue to be a 99% game with a 1% meter, to the casino. As it builds, that jackpot makes it positive for the player but it's still a 99% game for the house. Not only that, but when it gets high enough, knowledgeable players tweek their strategy to adjust for the higher payoff, like holding a 3-card royal flush and discarding a high pair. This increases the profit for the casino, because the tweeked strategy is a "mistake" for the base game. It's a weird concept.
Of course, there is no strategy to tweek with keno, you just press that button.
When I first discovered profitable keno I actually made more money that year from keno than video poker. And it was fun as heck. I like the idea of a 6-spot, you don't have to wait weeks, even months, for the "royal". I've seen so many big keno progressives where they progress the 10-spot or the 9 and 10 spot, and the jackpot is huge, but it's STILL negative. And it's essentially pie-in-the-sky. Booooring!
I don't know if this would ever catch on with casinos in Vegas, but to me it's a slam dunk for all the bars in town. Speaking of bars, I don't know how they do it with 7-5 Double Double. There's something wrong with a person who continuously goes to the neighborhood bar and blows his brains out on 7-5 Double Double, week after week. 7-5 Double Double is a disease. A bad disease.
Quote: WizardofnothingOn the old lotto machines in Florida - the syndicates would come in when they got to xxx,xxxxx dollars and absolute crush the machines. Casinos still made money and never stopped it in fact they put in more machines
We've probably all read stories of Tuna. If you read Mickey, then you've read about Tuna. I love those stories.
Spent 18 hours on one before hitting $24,600 jackpot
