Resorts World Vegas fires CEO Sibella
It is possible to set some games to print out a voucher for wins below $1200 that would take the credit balance on the machine over $3000. This avoids the need to ever deal with $3000 vouchers. The player cannot create them under any circumstances. I wish more casinos had turned this feature on.
Even if there was no issue about putting cash into games, the $3000 voucher limit helps the casino reduce labor costs on the cash out end.
But in any case has nothing to do with that TITOs are some kind of “financial instrument” apart from tokens or chips.
Quote: MDawgAll that matters is the amount of cash input over 24 hours. Converting it to chips, tokens, TITOs, has nothing to do with triggering that > $10K in 24 hours.
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I've only seen one YouTube bubble craps machine being played into the 5 figures on the meter, and it must be in Florida or somewhere I'm not.
Quote: MDawg
I am saying that the CTRs and SARs that would be issued in the process of all those cash inputs will not be absolved by the W2-Gs received at the back end - which is also essentially what TigerWu has said.
Cash in/cash out at slots is not included in cash transaction reporting.
Neither are winning W2-G jackpots. They are not even considered cash outs transactions. CTR'S are not filed on jackpots even in excess of ten grand.
And definitely not on cash in cash out at slots
Quote: ChumpChangeThe Hard Rock Casino in Florida can run the meter up to $50,000. You can put vouchers in galore. But win a $25K JP when you already have $30K on the meter, you're going to get a $25K hand pay. That's for players who are on self-pay jackpots anyway.
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The Seminole Hard Rock casinos in Florida are tribal casinos and do whatever they want. This is likely an exception rather than the rule.
There is also a conspiracy theory that they remove tens from blackjack shoes. They also refuse to show the cards prior to shuffle and say they are preshuffled.
Quote: darkozCash in/cash out at slots is not included in cash transaction reporting.
Neither are winning W2-G jackpots. They are not even considered cash outs transactions. CTR'S are not filed on jackpots even in excess of ten grand.
And definitely not on cash in cash out at slots
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And you wonder why I discount anything you have to say on this subject ?
Input over 10k receive over 10k cash in a 24 hour period if it’s noted by the casino in some way you’re having a CTR issued on you.
Take the winning payout via check - no CTR issued.
Quote: MDawgQuote: darkozCash in/cash out at slots is not included in cash transaction reporting.
Neither are winning W2-G jackpots. They are not even considered cash outs transactions. CTR'S are not filed on jackpots even in excess of ten grand.
And definitely not on cash in cash out at slots
link to original post
And you wonder why I discount anything you have to say on this subject ?
Input over 10k receive over 10k cash in a 24 hour period if it’s noted by the casino in some way you’re having a CTR issued on you.
Take the winning payout via check - no CTR issued.
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And yet... you are wrong! I trust Fincen more than you.
As for the first post go light at the cage and heavy at the ATM kiosk with your vouchers. I'd typically have only a handful of cage trips per visit. Of course I could be wrong and the session data gets collected one and the same at each place and goes toward your cumulative numbers anyway. But since no vouchers are over $3K, they won't individually be entered into the system towards the Multiple Transaction Log (MTL). But if I bring up 5 vouchers at once totaling over $3K to the cage, they might be entering me into the Multiple Transaction Log (MTL).
Quote: MDawgA cashed out TITO ticket obviously is included in sum total that triggers the >$10K CTR reporting, but I don't see any mention of TITOs being treated any differently from casino chips, tokens, and other gaming instruments:
https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/FinCEN%20CTR%20ElectronicFilingInstructions%20-%20Stand%20Alone%20doc.pdf
Nor do I see any mention of any figure other than 10000 (no mention of 3000 as far as reporting).
I did find this:
a casino does not have to report the following types of transactions:
• Cash ins when they are the same physical currency previously wagered in a money play on the same table game without leaving the table;
• Bills inserted into electronic gaming devices in multiple transactions (unless a casino has knowledge pursuant to 31 C.F.R. 1021.313);
• Cash outs won in a money play when they are the same physical currency wagered, (However, when a customer increases a subsequent cash bet (i.e., money play), at the same table game without departing, the increase in the amount of the currency bet would represent a new bet of currency and a transaction in currency) or,
• Jackpots from slot machines or video lottery terminals.
§ 1021.313 Aggregation.
In the case of a casino, multiple currency transactions shall be treated as a single transaction if the casino has knowledge that they are by or on behalf of any person and result in either cash in or cash out totaling more than $10,000 during any gaming day. For purposes of this section, a casino shall be deemed to have the knowledge described in the preceding sentence, if: Any sole proprietor, partner, officer, director, or employee of the casino, acting within the scope of his or her employment, has knowledge that such multiple currency transactions have occurred, including knowledge from examining the books, records, logs, information retained on magnetic disk, tape or other machine-readable media, or in any manual system, and similar documents and information, which the casino maintains pursuant to any law or regulation or within the ordinary course of its business, and which contain information that such multiple currency transactions have occurred.
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The rule of the day when it comes to most anything D.Oz has to say with regards to interpreting something like this, is imprecision and misinterpretation.
It does seem that "Jackpots from slot machines or video lottery terminals" were exempted after a 2007 amendment (I quoted that myself, above), for the following reasons:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/news_release_20070621_casino.pdf
however, as to cash input:
The rules do not say that no matter how much the guy inputs or receives he will not receive a CTR, but rather state that multiple currency transactions shall be treated as a single transaction if the casino has knowledge that they are by or on behalf of any person and result in either cash in or cash out totaling more than $10,000 during any gaming day. That is quite different from what D.Oz is trying to say, that no matter how much you input in or pull out from a slot machine you're not getting a CTR!
You must consider the "unless a casino has knowledge pursuant to 31 C.F.R. 1021.313" as a qualifier to "Bills inserted into electronic gaming devices in multiple transactions" being exempt from reporting.
You have to look at the actual law not just some simplified "questions and answers" that don't always get into all the nuances of the law. You also have to make sure you're looking at the latest version / amendments to the law.
I mean come on, this guy is all over the place. One minute he's arguing that TITOs are the equivalent of money orders or cashier's checks, i.e. "financial instruments," next he's arguing that cash in or cash out is unilaterally exempt from reporting in machine play.
If you want to get convicted of money laundering, or tax evasion too (see his interpretation of free play) use someone like D.Oz as your representative. That goes for most anything he has tried to prosecute as plaintiff in the legal system - shot down!
Fincen or MDawg.
You can read what fincen says above.
It's here as well. https://www.fincen.gov/resources/statutes-regulations/guidance/frequently-asked-questions-casino-recordkeeping-reporting-0
No need to argue with someone who is wrong when the proof is right there on the website.
Remember MDawg is a lawyer. Even when a guy is shown axe murdering someone on video lawyers will say "not guilty " they just don't believe in people believing their eyes.
Quote: darkozJust ask who you trust more.
Fincen or MDawg.
Fincin obviously
By a overwhelming landslide.
But
WTF is Fincin :-)
Money laundering wars. Everybody has to have the last word :-)
Anybody taking bets on last word?
Who's more obsessive lol
I think we can all agree that using Hollywood movie clips is the worst way of making a point about the real world :-)
Quote:(23) Coin-in is a metered count of coins, credits and other amounts bet by customers at an electronic gaming device. Coin-out is a metered count of coins, credits and other amounts paid out to customers on winnings at an electronic gaming device. Therefore, coin-in does not include paper currency inserted into a bill acceptor (on slot machine or video lottery terminal) to accumulate credits.
The bill acceptor at a slot machine is still cash in. What is excluded by the regulation is the recycling of credits already on the machine in the form of a credit meter.
Coin-in is historical term dating back to the days when every slot pull required new coins to go into the machine and all wins were immediately paid out in coins. In the modern context, it does not imply anything physical going in or out of the machine. IMO, putting a Benjamin into a bill acceptor is a cash-in action. I don't see that the answer to Question 9 excludes this action from cash-in reporting.
Quote: MentalLook at the footnote (23) to https://www.fincen.gov/resources/statutes-regulations/guidance/frequently-asked-questions-casino-recordkeeping-reporting-0
Quote:(23) Coin-in is a metered count of coins, credits and other amounts bet by customers at an electronic gaming device. Coin-out is a metered count of coins, credits and other amounts paid out to customers on winnings at an electronic gaming device. Therefore, coin-in does not include paper currency inserted into a bill acceptor (on slot machine or video lottery terminal) to accumulate credits.
The bill acceptor at a slot machine is still cash in. What is excluded by the regulation is the recycling of credits already on the machine in the form of a credit meter.
Coin-in is historical term dating back to the days when every slot pull required new coins to go into the machine and all wins were immediately paid out in coins. In the modern context, it does not imply anything physical going in or out of the machine. IMO, putting a Benjamin into a bill acceptor is a cash-in action. I don't see that the answer to Question 9 excludes this action from cash-in reporting.
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Interesting. So they consider "cash-in " a separate term from "coin-in " Never seen that before.
So yes that would mean cash-in should be reported for over ten grand.
However W2-G jackpots in excess of ten grand still don't require CTR reporting and are not considered cash-out(directly stated by them).
Which completely circumvent the entire point they make about recycled credits. I can tell you now as most slots players can (especially high rollers) that its precisely winning handpays that force constant cash-in. Like literally the $1200 limit forces recycling cash yet now W2-G is not considered cash-out but reinserting that cash is considered cash-in? But recycled credits from coin-in(per their own advisement) is not because it causes misrepresentation of currency transactions.
A good defense attorney in a where did your currency come from situation like that would make mincemeat of such a case.
I agree that high-limit slot an VP players feed a lot of bills into the bill acceptor. I fed over 1000 $100 bills into bill acceptors in one day and had an unpleasant interaction with the head of security over 'bill stuffing'. The sensible thing would be to net cash-out hand pays against the cash-in to the bill acceptor. This seems to be in the spirit of the regulation, since this is just recycled cash transactions. I have no direct experience with how casinos handle various aspects of FinCEN.Quote: darkozQuote: MentalLook at the footnote (23) to https://www.fincen.gov/resources/statutes-regulations/guidance/frequently-asked-questions-casino-recordkeeping-reporting-0
Quote:(23) Coin-in is a metered count of coins, credits and other amounts bet by customers at an electronic gaming device. Coin-out is a metered count of coins, credits and other amounts paid out to customers on winnings at an electronic gaming device. Therefore, coin-in does not include paper currency inserted into a bill acceptor (on slot machine or video lottery terminal) to accumulate credits.
The bill acceptor at a slot machine is still cash in. What is excluded by the regulation is the recycling of credits already on the machine in the form of a credit meter.
Coin-in is historical term dating back to the days when every slot pull required new coins to go into the machine and all wins were immediately paid out in coins. In the modern context, it does not imply anything physical going in or out of the machine. IMO, putting a Benjamin into a bill acceptor is a cash-in action. I don't see that the answer to Question 9 excludes this action from cash-in reporting.
link to original post
Interesting. So they consider "cash-in " a separate term from "coin-in " Never seen that before.
So yes that would mean cash-in should be reported for over ten grand.
However W2-G jackpots in excess of ten grand still don't require CTR reporting and are not considered cash-out(directly stated by them).
Which completely circumvent the entire point they make about recycled credits. I can tell you now as most slots players can (especially high rollers) that its precisely winning handpays that force constant cash-in. Like literally the $1200 limit forces recycling cash yet now W2-G is not considered cash-out but reinserting that cash is considered cash-in? But recycled credits from coin-in(per their own advisement) is not because it causes misrepresentation of currency transactions.
A good defense attorney in a where did your currency come from situation like that would make mincemeat of such a case.
link to original post
Quote: MentalI agree that high-limit slot an VP players feed a lot of bills into the bill acceptor. I fed over 1000 $100 bills into bill acceptors in one day and had an unpleasant interaction with the head of security over 'bill stuffing'. The sensible thing would be to net cash-out hand pays against the cash-in to the bill acceptor. This seems to be in the spirit of the regulation, since this is just recycled cash transactions. I have no direct experience with how casinos handle various aspects of FinCEN.Quote: darkozQuote: MentalLook at the footnote (23) to https://www.fincen.gov/resources/statutes-regulations/guidance/frequently-asked-questions-casino-recordkeeping-reporting-0
Quote:(23) Coin-in is a metered count of coins, credits and other amounts bet by customers at an electronic gaming device. Coin-out is a metered count of coins, credits and other amounts paid out to customers on winnings at an electronic gaming device. Therefore, coin-in does not include paper currency inserted into a bill acceptor (on slot machine or video lottery terminal) to accumulate credits.
The bill acceptor at a slot machine is still cash in. What is excluded by the regulation is the recycling of credits already on the machine in the form of a credit meter.
Coin-in is historical term dating back to the days when every slot pull required new coins to go into the machine and all wins were immediately paid out in coins. In the modern context, it does not imply anything physical going in or out of the machine. IMO, putting a Benjamin into a bill acceptor is a cash-in action. I don't see that the answer to Question 9 excludes this action from cash-in reporting.
link to original post
Interesting. So they consider "cash-in " a separate term from "coin-in " Never seen that before.
So yes that would mean cash-in should be reported for over ten grand.
However W2-G jackpots in excess of ten grand still don't require CTR reporting and are not considered cash-out(directly stated by them).
Which completely circumvent the entire point they make about recycled credits. I can tell you now as most slots players can (especially high rollers) that its precisely winning handpays that force constant cash-in. Like literally the $1200 limit forces recycling cash yet now W2-G is not considered cash-out but reinserting that cash is considered cash-in? But recycled credits from coin-in(per their own advisement) is not because it causes misrepresentation of currency transactions.
A good defense attorney in a where did your currency come from situation like that would make mincemeat of such a case.
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The smart thing would be eliminate jackpot handpays.
One easy way I see is instead of paying cash, pay with a slot voucher that is accepted at slots. You can always cash it at cashier if you choose. I personally hate reloading machines when doing high limits
If the slot won't accept vouchers over 3k just pay in multiple vouchers. Like a $5000 jackpot could be paid as 2 $2500 vouchers
Welcome to my world. I only ever made one cash transaction for my online play. All the rest are electronic transfers. PayPal investigated me once, probably for the sheer dollar volume that moves back and forth between my checking accounts and online casino accounts. I guess they were satisfied with what they saw because my account was quickly unfrozen and they never said anything to me.Quote: darkozlink to original post
The smart thing would be eliminate jackpot handpays.
One easy way I see is instead of paying cash, pay with a slot voucher that is accepted at slots. You can always cash it at cashier if you choose. I personally hate reloading machines when doing high limits
If the slot won't accept vouchers over 3k just pay in multiple vouchers. Like a $5000 jackpot could be paid as 2 $2500 vouchers
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I believe Hard Rock B&M offers credit meter self-jackpots (not really hand pays any more). I know I have been paid jackpots in vouchers and I have taken out marker in the form of vouchers. The casino where I had my 'bill stuffing' run in would permit me to buy vouchers for cash at the cage, but I had to wait for a manager to be summoned for every transaction.
It would help if players would constantly pester their hosts to get cashless jackpots implemented at more casinos. Eventually, it would become a competitive disadvantage for any casinos that did not offer cashless jackpots.
Quote: MDawgQuote: darkozCash in/cash out at slots is not included in cash transaction reporting.
Neither are winning W2-G jackpots. They are not even considered cash outs transactions. CTR'S are not filed on jackpots even in excess of ten grand.
And definitely not on cash in cash out at slots
link to original post
And you wonder why I discount anything you have to say on this subject ?
Input over 10k receive over 10k cash in a 24 hour period if it’s noted by the casino in some way you’re having a CTR issued on you.
Quote: darkozSo yes that would mean cash-in should be reported for over ten grand.
link to original post
Quote: MDawgYou have to look at the actual law not just some simplified "questions and answers" that don't always get into all the nuances of the law. You also have to make sure you're looking at the latest version / amendments to the law.
link to original post
and once you do,
Quote: MDawgYou must consider the "unless a casino has knowledge pursuant to 31 C.F.R. 1021.313" as a qualifier to "Bills inserted into electronic gaming devices in multiple transactions" being exempt from reporting
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You also have to use common sense which is that FinCen is not going to allow money launderers an unqualified exemption to allow the rinsing of cash.
Meantime, both D.Oz and T.pined (with his "two legs good, four legs bad" level of chiming in to support D.Oz's fallacy), are going to the hoosegow for an imprecise and misinterpretated view of the regulations.
Quote: MDawgIf you want to get convicted of money laundering, or tax evasion too (see his interpretation of free play) use someone like D.Oz as your representative. That goes for most anything he has tried to prosecute as plaintiff in the legal system - shot down!
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Quote: MDawgLike I said,
Quote: MDawgYou have to look at the actual law not just some simplified "questions and answers" that don't always get into all the nuances of the law. You also have to make sure you're looking at the latest version / amendments to the law.
link to original post
and once you do,Quote: MDawgYou must consider the "unless a casino has knowledge pursuant to 31 C.F.R. 1021.313" as a qualifier to "Bills inserted into electronic gaming devices in multiple transactions" being exempt from reporting
link to original post
You also have to use common sense which is that FinCen is not going to allow money launderers an unqualified exemption to allow the rinsing of cash.
Meantime, both D.Oz and T.pined (with his "two legs good, four legs bad" level of chiming in to support D.Oz's fallacy), are going to the hoosegow for an imprecise and misinterpretated view of the regulations.Quote: MDawgIf you want to get convicted of money laundering, or tax evasion too (see his interpretation of free play) use someone like D.Oz as your representative. That goes for most anything he has tried to prosecute as plaintiff in the legal system - shot down!
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Nobody ate forefoot or whatever you claim. The rest of us are having a conversation to enlighten each other to what the situation is.
So far we have determined that Fincen has created a really great defense for money launderers. They don’t count W2-G wins as cash-out (which you still got wrong so don't know what you're jumping in the air over) but do consider bills inserted as cash-in and state coin- in is misrepresented by this very issue.
Furthermore insertion of vouchers is NOT counted as cash-in so your freeplay fantasy about fincen and the IRS goes out the window as does them trying to convict me for my using multiple cards. Most of the gambling I do on multiple cards is on vouchers!!!
For example you said some smart lawyer might claim I was circumventing the casinos ability to report CTR's. That lawyer will look stupid when I show I only insert a thousand bucks and then use TITO's the rest of the day on sixteen different cards, cash out after finishing one card, go to a different machine and use the same TITO.
Besides that your whole theory falls apart because it's not the role of an AP to do the casinos job for them. We have no control or view of filing CTR'S. For all I know I use multiple players cards and the casino still files CTR'S on me. There isn't a jury in the world that would convict someone for circumventing the secret, hidden from view and unadvertised (not to mention not even a statute that says gamblers must openly show) their bill insertion habits.
So stop drooling about fictional scenarios of multicarders being convicted. You have a better chance of sleeping with Rhihanna or being convicted for jaywalking in NYC at rush hour.
Quote: darkozCash in/cash out at slots is not included in cash transaction reporting.
And definitely not on cash in cash out at slots
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Quote: darkozSo yes that would mean cash-in should be reported for over ten grand.
link to original post
Quote: MDawgIf you want to get convicted of money laundering, or tax evasion too (see his interpretation of free play) use someone like D.Oz as your representative. That goes for most anything he has tried to prosecute as plaintiff in the legal system - shot down!
link to original post
Quote: MDawgQuote: darkozCash in/cash out at slots is not included in cash transaction reporting.
And definitely not on cash in cash out at slots
link to original postQuote: darkozSo yes that would mean cash-in should be reported for over ten grand.
link to original postQuote: MDawgIf you want to get convicted of money laundering, or tax evasion too (see his interpretation of free play) use someone like D.Oz as your representative. That goes for most anything he has tried to prosecute as plaintiff in the legal system - shot down!
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You are just sore because you are wrong about W2G's being considered cash-out so harping now.
Grow up.
My saying that cash in cash out >10K must be reported stands, because there are other ways to cash out obviously besides a jackpot. And a W2-G is a report anyway, and no D.Oz, a W2-G does not absolve the CTRs or SARs that might be reported on the way in (and way out, for funds that are returned >10K that might qualify for a CTR or SAR), or are you still hopelessly mired in your inaccurate (and quaint) ideas about all this?
and your trying to claim that TiTos are financial instruments is your "Newell moment" if you want to call it that, or your "Show me the CTR!" 🤣 and showed complete lack of understanding about any of this. Stick to pushing dem buttons. Interpretation of other than basic statutes sometimes requires an accurate mind.
Quote: MDawgI was 100% right from the getgo.
My saying that cash in cash out >10K must be reported stands, because there are other ways to cash out obviously besides a jackpot. And a W2-G is a report anyway, and no D.Oz, a W2-G does not absolve the CTRs or SARs that might be reported on the way in (and way out, for funds that are returned >10K that might qualify for a CTR or SAR), or are you still hopelessly mired in your inaccurate (and quaint) ideas about all this?
and your trying to claim that TiTos are financial instruments is your "Newell moment" if you want to call it that, or your "Show me the CTR!" 🤣 and showed complete lack of understanding about any of this. Stick to pushing dem buttons. Interpretation of statutes requires an accurate mind.
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The alleged lawyer thinks he has proven his case while having no case.
Stick to table games where you can allegedly read the next baccarat cards coming out.
It's like that lawyer who celebrates his prosecution until the jury comes back and rules against him.
Quote: MDawgExcept that in this case the jury is already in, and you're already off to the gallows.
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Now you're a CRT lawyer!
Not CTR! CRT!
I am.confused what you're claiming about freeplay and the IRS.
Freeplay is considered a non-taxable rebate up to the amount of the purchase (losses).
So if I lose $1000, get back $4000 in freeplay and that turns into $2000 cash, then I am liable for taxable income on $1000(the cash profit above the amount I spent to get it)
It all makes sense and I pay taxes at the end of the year so I can't figure out what this IRS already has my balls comment means
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/36583-free-play-doesnt-last-forever/7/#post860915
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/36583-free-play-doesnt-last-forever/7/#post860916
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/36583-free-play-doesnt-last-forever/7/#post860926
Quote: darkozIf you won cash proceeds from the rebate freeplay or promo chips that's not taxable.
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Quote: MDawgI smell an audit coming.
Does the IRS consider cashback and free-play gambling income?
Marissa Chien, Enrolled Agent and co-author of Tax Help for Gamblers, tells her clients that cashback is gambling income, whereas free buffets aren’t. The standard she applies is that cashback is statutory, while a comp from the players club booth or your host, such as the free buffet, is discretionary. Since the comp is entirely up to the host’s discretion — i.e., he or she could refuse to issue it for any reason— to Marissa, that doesn’t fall under the definitions of income in the tax code. Cashback is earned pursuant to a particular formula and you’re entitled to that cashback if you meet the statutory requirements of earning it.
The biggest argument as to why cashback is income is that if you’re 86ed (barred) from a Nevada casino, Nevada Gaming Control has ruled time and time again that you’re entitled to the cashback earned, whereas comps in your comp account are forfeited, since they’re discretionary.
As for free play, these days, casinos often give you free play instead of cash rewards. Free play comes in credits that must be played through a video poker or slot machine at least once before you can cash it out for money that you can put in your pocket.
This again is a gray area not specifically addressed by the IRS or any court cases. Some people don’t include free play in their gambling win, since they say it’s just like comps, a non-cash gift from the casino. Some only count as a win what they actually have left to cash out after they play it through the machine once, as required by the casino. Others keep churning it through the machine until they have nothing left (in which case they feel they have no “win”) or until they hit a big jackpot (which they do count as a win).
Marissa recommends that free play be incorporated into one’s log of session results. If someone receives $2,500 in free play, the actual proceeds after playing it through the machine should be recorded and reported as a win. A big difference between free play and cashback is the fact that free play always has an expiration date and is usually valid for only a short period of time. Cashback can expire as well (for example, if for a lack of play during a set period, your players account is closed), but it’s usually available to collect for a much longer period of time.
And here’s another nuance to the cashback issue. As soon as you pick up your cashback, it becomes income and needs to be accounted for as such. But what if you don’t pick it up? For example, there might be valid reasons for not collecting cashback, as when it’s a small amount or a player plans to pick it up later, but never gets back to that casino, so his or her account is closed. I believe it would be very hard for the IRS to argue that it should count as income, even if you file as a business on an accrual basis. (I suppose if you do, you’d have to declare it as income, but then you’d probably write it off as a bad debt, though that doesn’t make much sense either.) Actually, at some point, it should be declared as retained earnings by the casino.
The same is true for free play. Many players don’t always collect their free play, especially if it’s a small amount and/or it’s not convenient or a good use of one’s time to go back to that casino before it expires. Therefore, it’s logical not to count it as gambling income until you actually redeem it.
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It would probably be best to resume the conversation, if it is to be resumed at all, in THAT thread as there are multiple posts addressing it.
Quote: MDawgI believe I found it:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/36583-free-play-doesnt-last-forever/7/#post860915
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/36583-free-play-doesnt-last-forever/7/#post860916
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/36583-free-play-doesnt-last-forever/7/#post860926Quote: darkozIf you won cash proceeds from the rebate freeplay or promo chips that's not taxable.
link to original postQuote: MDawgI smell an audit coming.
Does the IRS consider cashback and free-play gambling income?
Marissa Chien, Enrolled Agent and co-author of Tax Help for Gamblers, tells her clients that cashback is gambling income, whereas free buffets aren’t. The standard she applies is that cashback is statutory, while a comp from the players club booth or your host, such as the free buffet, is discretionary. Since the comp is entirely up to the host’s discretion — i.e., he or she could refuse to issue it for any reason— to Marissa, that doesn’t fall under the definitions of income in the tax code. Cashback is earned pursuant to a particular formula and you’re entitled to that cashback if you meet the statutory requirements of earning it.
The biggest argument as to why cashback is income is that if you’re 86ed (barred) from a Nevada casino, Nevada Gaming Control has ruled time and time again that you’re entitled to the cashback earned, whereas comps in your comp account are forfeited, since they’re discretionary.
As for free play, these days, casinos often give you free play instead of cash rewards. Free play comes in credits that must be played through a video poker or slot machine at least once before you can cash it out for money that you can put in your pocket.
This again is a gray area not specifically addressed by the IRS or any court cases. Some people don’t include free play in their gambling win, since they say it’s just like comps, a non-cash gift from the casino. Some only count as a win what they actually have left to cash out after they play it through the machine once, as required by the casino. Others keep churning it through the machine until they have nothing left (in which case they feel they have no “win”) or until they hit a big jackpot (which they do count as a win).
Marissa recommends that free play be incorporated into one’s log of session results. If someone receives $2,500 in free play, the actual proceeds after playing it through the machine should be recorded and reported as a win. A big difference between free play and cashback is the fact that free play always has an expiration date and is usually valid for only a short period of time. Cashback can expire as well (for example, if for a lack of play during a set period, your players account is closed), but it’s usually available to collect for a much longer period of time.
And here’s another nuance to the cashback issue. As soon as you pick up your cashback, it becomes income and needs to be accounted for as such. But what if you don’t pick it up? For example, there might be valid reasons for not collecting cashback, as when it’s a small amount or a player plans to pick it up later, but never gets back to that casino, so his or her account is closed. I believe it would be very hard for the IRS to argue that it should count as income, even if you file as a business on an accrual basis. (I suppose if you do, you’d have to declare it as income, but then you’d probably write it off as a bad debt, though that doesn’t make much sense either.) Actually, at some point, it should be declared as retained earnings by the casino.
The same is true for free play. Many players don’t always collect their free play, especially if it’s a small amount and/or it’s not convenient or a good use of one’s time to go back to that casino before it expires. Therefore, it’s logical not to count it as gambling income until you actually redeem it.
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It would probably be best to resume the conversation, if it is to be resumed at all, in THAT thread as there are multiple posts addressing it.
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Yes Marissa Chen got it wrong. I described it correctly above.
I still don't understand why you feel they are coming after me but let's move it to that other thread if you wish.
Quote: darkoz[
The alleged lawyer thinks he has proven his case while having no case.
Alleged ?????????
I dont even believe that anymore
Quote: terapinedQuote: darkoz[
The alleged lawyer thinks he has proven his case while having no case.
Alleged ?????????
I dont even believe that anymore
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He says I do an alleged AP so it's fair enough to say he is an alleged lawyer
Quote: MDawgSure, after both of you are proven wrong, insult me on top of being shown the door for your mistakes.
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Quote: MDawg
I disagree with your claim about the incidents. That's allowed here, to disagree. ............At least know thyself and dont try to claim otherwise.
I'm allowed to disagree
At least know thyself and dont try to claim otherwise
Quote: MDawgSure, after both of you are proven wrong, insult me on top of being shown the door.
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I am only pointing out what you also point out.
My AP is alleged. I know it's real. But I certainly haven't shown documentation online. I am not about to take pics of my players cards for example.
Likewise you allege to be an attorney. You know whether you are or not. The rest of us have to take your word.
So alleged. As you yourself point out about everyone else.
I don't believe that is an insult (unless your calling my multicarding alleged is also.)
EDIT: I actually have shown documentation in my Golden Nugget vs. DARKOZ thread.
Quote: MDawgI didn't say that multicarding doesn't work - just said that I believe it doesn't work for you, nearly as well as you imply. Yes I've referred to multicarding as a low end scheme (others have referred to it as a one trick pony). But as far as how well it works for you, I mean we have the meaningless $20K a week (but not every week), but nothing like the specific session reports I have laid down (and Mission146 tabulated), so we really have no idea what you even claim as far as multicarding success.
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If anything my disbelieve centers around that you haven't ever even pinned down exactly what you have made, the way I have. If you want to submit exact amounts the way I have, then I could offer an opinion.
You know or at least have an idea of the hours I play, the sort of credit limits I have, the sort of special max bets limits I have. And you have all my session reports and Mission146's tabulated figures, which while not entirely accurate, some things missing, aren't wildly inaccurate either. I have supplied a great deal of detail as to the parameters. If you'd be willing to supply similar details, such as the men involved in your teams, how many cards you are running, how often you go, how many casinos, etc. and then give exact year by year figures, we could evaluate.
If not, you can't expect anyone to offer a final opinion based on vague "$20K a week but not every week" nonsense as to what you are or are not doing, and its success.
Quote: MDawgAgain, I have never said that I do not believe that you multicard. So stop repeating that falsehood, you are now repeatedly misquoting me.
Quote: MDawgI didn't say that multicarding doesn't work - just said that I believe it doesn't work for you, nearly as well as you imply. Yes I've referred to multicarding as a low end scheme (others have referred to it as a one trick pony). But as far as how well it works for you, I mean we have the meaningless $20K a week (but not every week), but nothing like the specific session reports I have laid down (and Mission146 tabulated), so we really have no idea what you even claim as far as multicarding success.
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If anything my disbelieve centers around that you haven't ever even pinned down exactly what you have made, the way I have. If you want to submit exact amounts the way I have, then I could offer an opinion.
You know or at least have an idea of the hours I play, the sort of credit limits I have, the sort of special max bets limits I have. And you have all my session reports and Mission146's tabulated figures, which will not entirely accurate, some things missing, aren't wildly inaccurate either. I have supplied a great deal of detail as to the parameters. If you'd be willing to supply similar details, such as the men involved in your teams, how many cards you are running, how many casinos, etc. and then give exact year by year figures, we could evaluate.
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There is one casino I do 150 cards a month. Another I do 3.
Why? Because 3 is a lot of labor at that location but the offers add up huge. While the other offers aren't large at all but it's quick to earn them.
That's just an example of how the questions you asked would require so many different answers.
I also don't want to accidentally give out TMI that would give away my locations.
Numbers wise, my annual income reported to IRS is six figures. It varies from year to year but I have been averaging about two hundred a year.
That's after paying my crew. I have crew that live off what they make working for me. I have a crew of 12 steady month to month employed people (although they don't work every month) :)
Quote: darkozmy annual income reported to IRS is six figures. It varies from year to year but I have been averaging about two hundred a year.
That's after paying my crew. I have crew that live off what they make working for me. I have a crew of 12 steady month to month employed people (although they don't work every month) :)
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All right so that is adjusted gross after paying your crew (I doubt you have them all on "payroll" to itemize on a Schedule C, assume this $200K is more like "your end"?).
Is this 200K before (other) expenses or final net before standard IRS deductions?
For example, the figures I report in a session report are my final net. Whatever I am able to deduct from that would be deductions, but what I walk away from the table with is my net profit. In my case since most everything is being comp'ed, I don't have much to deduct anyway.
I believe the other guy donates to casinos
It's the only logic that makes sense
I'm allowed to believe what I believe
Quote: MDawgQuote: darkozmy annual income reported to IRS is six figures. It varies from year to year but I have been averaging about two hundred a year.
That's after paying my crew. I have crew that live off what they make working for me. I have a crew of 12 steady month to month employed people (although they don't work every month) :)
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All right so that is adjusted gross after paying your crew (I doubt you have them all on "payroll" to itemize on a Schedule C, assume this $200K is more like "your end"?).
Is this 200K before (other) expenses or final net before standard IRS deductions?
For example, the figures I report in a session report are my final net. Whatever I am able to deduct from that would be deductions, but what I walk away from the table with is my net profit. In my case since most everything is being comp'ed, I don't have much to deduct anyway.
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I'm not going to go into heavy details.
It's net. Some years I owe, some years I get a refund due to how well I did with W2-G jackpots. In general I pay taxes at the time of winning so I can look forward to a refund.
I am not going any further exposing my financials. That's private.
Quote: terapinedI'm allowed to believe what I believe
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Over all, I don't take you seriously enough to respond to much of what you have to say.
In this instance I will, even though it amounts to - literally - just shouting "four legs good! two legs bad!" over and over.
We already know you're obsessed with MDawg.
Saying that you do not believe what someone has DONE is okay here.
Saying that you do not believe what someone has represented himself TO BE, is calling him a liar, and is a major insult here.
Would be like if I said "I don't believe you're even a doctor" to SooPoo or started calling him "the alleged anesthesiologist" or calling Wizard the "alleged mathematician" - those are all insults, especially the first two because they go to someone's profession.
Given how intractable you are, I don't expect you to get it. But there it is.
Quote: MDawgOver all, I don't take you seriously enough to respond to much of what you have to say.
In this instance I will, even though it amounts to - literally - just shouting "four legs good! two legs bad!" over and over.
We already know you're obsessed with MDawg.
Saying that you do not believe what someone has DONE is okay.
Saying that you do not believe what someone has represented himself TO BE, is calling him a liar, and is a major insult.
Would be like if I said "I don't believe you're even a doctor" to SooPoo or started calling him "the alleged anesthesiologist" or calling Wizard the "alleged mathematician" - those are all insults, especially the first two because they go to someone's profession.
Given how intractable you are, I don't expect you to get it. But there it is.
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I believe Soopoo and the Wizard
The real world is very believable
I've met both and hung out with them
I believe all my friends. They wouldn't be friends if I didn't believe they are genuine good honest people
As to strangers on the internet
Overall I don't believe any story on the internet without video proof
Without video proof, I don't believe any story told over the internet
This is just common internet sense not to believe strangers on the internet
It's amazing all the sexy woman that try to comment and friend me on FB. I don't believe them just like I don't believe your stories. This is not insulting sexy women or you. It's just common sense
You and DarkOz were also wrong about the FinCen regulation, but at least he admitted it. You did not, just came back with more nonsense in the way of an insult. 😇
Now wait a second, you admitted that you were wrong about that "no way" MDawg would show his face to Wizard and play Baccarat in front of him. And DarkOz PAID me to make that appearance. And I won. So, that's better than video evidence, it's live action in front of someone in whom you believe evidently.
Certainly, in a world of just talk, MDawg has provided more evidence than most.
Quote: MDawgObviously your concept of what is and what is not an insult at WOV is lacking, as demonstrated by the months you've spent in lock up including recently. At least if you were getting suspended in the past and then settled down that would be one thing, but there is no end in sight with you.
You and DarkOz were also wrong about the FinCen regulation, but at least he admitted it. You did not, just came back with more nonsense in the way of an insult. 😇
Anyway, don't you have to go tether your trailer or something? Or are you settled in one place for longer than a week this time and are free to keep commenting on MDawg all day long? It's Sunday and I am in a stationary house and therefore have time to spare! No itinerancy for me today.
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Lockup????????
I view it as a break.
You view it as a lock up ROTFL.
Why are you so offended with with non believers ???????
The nature of the internet is not to believe strangers
I'm going to 24 Dead and Co shows at the Sphere
Could care less if somebody doesn't believe that
Because
I'm not obsessed
(Obsessed with the Dead: yes, this place or not believed : no)
And
Only 4 days to show number 1
Hoping to get a Terrapin Station
Can't wait to see my boys
When Jerry was alive, and he played solo didn't he play no Dead songs? I think only the die hard fans were into his solo concerts.
I actually am into the Dead, not die hard but I like them, but wasn't Terrapin Part 1 more of a studio song? I have a recording of Dead in the Desert in Vegas from 1991 I believe. I used to have a Dead in the Desert tee shirt actually, from that era, as a Vegas collector's item lost it. I'm not a die hard fan, but I'd recognize most any Dead song if played.
Quote: MDawgFor at least the first few years of my play, I posted actual video of me logged into my player card accounts and navigating the pages including the pages where my WIN statements were. These WIN statements corroborated more or less the sum total of what I had claimed via session reports during the course of each given year.
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Quote: MDawgI used to have a Dead in the Desert tee shirt actually, from that era, as a Vegas collector's item lost it. I'm not a die hard fan, but I'd recognize most any Dead song if played.
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Looks like I was wrong. I do still have that tee shirt.
