Discussion about the Suspension List
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhether there is a written rule against it or not, that was the stated reason for the suspension.
The Wizard can suspend anyone for whatever reason he chooses. There is nothing that says that the set of written rules is a complete list of reasons for suspension.
Why have any rules at all? Anyone capable of posting here should know how to behave. Why have the suspension list aka the "hall of shame"? Why have this thread that is closing in on 4000 posts and 400 pages?
We've been told more than a few times that this is a dictatorship so why give a reason for any suspension? Just make 'em disappear. You think people hold back now?
Quote: 1BBWhy have any rules at all? ... We've been told more than a few times that this is a dictatorship so why give a reason for any suspension? Just make 'em disappear. You think people hold back now?
I believe the moderators exercise restraint, certainly.
Had they true carte blanche, no doubt one or more posters, those whom they find to be pests or not contributing the "correct" content, would be banned.
I can recall several gambling sites where that was how it worked: you were allowed to post so long as you spouted the party line, but were bounced if you disagreed / argued.
Here, a considerable amount of latitude is given as to one's ideas; the rules are in force not so much to stifle ideas as to ensure reasonably polite communication of same.
Quote: 1BBWhy have any rules at all? Anyone capable of posting here should know how to behave. Why have the suspension list aka the "hall of shame"? Why have this thread that is closing in on 4000 posts and 400 pages?
We've been told more than a few times that this is a dictatorship so why give a reason for any suspension? Just make 'em disappear. You think people hold back now?
The rules lead people down the right path. But it doesn't mean that if you find some loophole you can do whatever you want.
Do you really think that this is unreasonable? The rules basically say, look, although this sort of thing may be tolerated on other forums, personal insults, sharing personal information, etc, etc, is not tolerated here. It does not mean that anything not listed IS tolerated.
I disagree with your statement that anyone capable of posting should know how to behave. There are different standards on different forums, so I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to know what the standards are here.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe rules lead people down the right path. But it doesn't mean that if you find some loophole you can do whatever you want.
Do you really think that this is unreasonable? The rules basically say, look, although this sort of thing may be tolerated on other forums, personal insults, sharing personal information, etc, etc, is not tolerated here. It does not mean that anything not listed IS tolerated.
I disagree with your statement that anyone capable of posting should know how to behave. There are different standards on different forums, so I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to know what the standards are here.
No, I do not think having rules is unreasonable. I think most know what acceptable standards are. What we can't know is what another person's standards are until a gotcha situation occurs. I'm not referring to any particular situation but there's been some.
Do you really think Bohemian was taking advantage of a loophole? Do you really think he conspired with a banned person to post what he did which was not disrespectful or insulting in any way? It actually may have been helpful to someone. Remember, he got an email and passed it on. This was not a violation of a PM from this site.
I'm surprised that this thread exists at all but as long as it does there will be discussion. The thread title invites it.
Quote: 1BBDo you really think Bohemian was taking advantage of a loophole? Do you really think he conspired with a banned person to post what he did which was not disrespectful or insulting in any way?
I have no idea. I had actually never heard of either member until it was mentioned here. I gather that they post in the craps forums... I blocked that whole sub-forum long ago.
However, the Wizard clearly thinks so. He didn't give his reasoning. Perhaps the member was already on thin ice for other minor infractions or near-infractions. Maybe this was more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" sort of thing.
I agree that it seems a little strange (had he just said, "I got this by email from someone", and not mentioned the person by name, would it have been ok?). But, just because the Wizard doesn't explain his reasoning, I don't think that the default assumption should be that his reasoning is faulty.
I do think that a rules clarification would be helpful in this case, though.
However, since so much discussion about the Bohemian ban, let me address it.
First, the forum rules should be considered as general guidelines (like a casino pai gow poker house way) and not set in granite. Think back to when you were in kindergarten. I'm sure the teacher went over the rules on the first day. However, she still retained the right to do what she needed to do for situations she did foresee when she wrote the rules down.
Second, Harley was banned from the forum on March 19, 2013. On April 18, 2013 Bohemian came along and posted pretty much the same kind of craps posts that Harley did. I'm not saying they are the same person. However, they at least know each other. Bohemian opened his post with:
Quote: BohemianI received this email and permission to post these rules clarification from Harley and I don't think he is selling anything:
Given that they are passing Emails, I would think that Bohemian should know that Harley was nuked. It stands to reason if someone is nuked then I don't want them around the forum any longer. So, when I see a long message from Harley, indicating he has given his permission to be quoted here, I see it as a way to circumvent the ban. Bohemian was his accomplice in the effort so that is why he got three days.
For those who get a ban and don't agree with it, learn to live with it. My house, my rules. If you don't like it here, this isn't the only forum out there.
Quote: WizardFirst, the forum rules should be considered as general guidelines (like a casino pai gow poker house way) and not set in granite.
First thing that comes to mind:
Quote: WizardThink back to when you were in kindergarten. I'm sure the teacher went over the rules on the first day. However, she still retained the right to do what she needed to do for situations she did foresee when she wrote the rules down.
"Kindergarten"
LOL!
What a perfect analogy.
Quote: WizardOh, for crying out loud. Why is there so much scrutiny and analysis of very ban? This is just an Internet forum.
...
For those who get a ban and don't agree with it, learn to live with it. My house, my rules. If you don't like it here, this isn't the only forum out there.
Thank the gambling forum gods this was finally spoken! Nice!
If there's anything the proliferation of legislation (i.e. "rules") tells us throughout history, it's that writing everything down never solves everything, from the 10 commandments to today's American tax and health care codes, people will always look for nits to pick. Sure, rules need to be written down. But there's also grace and deferring. Find your core principles, follow them, tolerate others, and show a little grace to noobs and those having a bad day.
Keep swingin' that big internet d*** around, Wiz! Well done!
Don't walk in the owner's house and poop on the floor!
Quote: AxelWolfthat costs more.
I wouldnt refer to this as someones "home". Homes do not have billboards in them generating income.
This is a place of business that trys to generate income by inviting people to these boards and using the visitation numbers to try to attract advertisers.
We are the customers.
Just as a customer can walk into Sams furniture store and tell the manager Sam that he doesnt like the way he runs his business and treats his customers. He doesnt like the "help" and the way they interact with others....its not Sams home. A customer has that right in most successful businesses
Now Sam can decide that the customer doesnt have that right in HIS store....and just tells the customer "dont let the door hit you"....
Its Sam's right in a free country to throw the complainer out, claim that his feelings were hurt, and on top of that ban them for days or forever. Thats fine, businessman Sam can certainly do that.
And then the other side of it.....Sam may see a reduction in furniture buying by those he "punished" and by those that heard about the treatment via word of mouth.
But I do agree if you knock on the persons door of their home, or call them on their private phone number and complain......that is indeed not good form...and scarey. If that happened I am with Ron C in condemning the person. Let me be the first to second Ron C's comment......never go to a managers home to discuss anything business related. Save that for the venue of the business.
Quote: BuzzardApril 212014. I said Mike's house Mike's rules. DUH
I always suspected that Buzz was a secret mod.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI always suspected that Buzz was a secret mod.
Nah, more of a rocker than a mod.
Why do I suddenly feel like Bud Abbott ?
HeheQuote: MoscaOr a mocker....
Quote: MrVI believe the moderators exercise restraint, certainly.
Had they true carte blanche, no doubt one or more posters, those whom they find to be pests or not contributing the "correct" content, would be banned.
I can recall several gambling sites where that was how it worked: you were allowed to post so long as you spouted the party line, but were bounced if you disagreed / argued.
Here, a considerable amount of latitude is given as to one's ideas; the rules are in force not so much to stifle ideas as to ensure reasonably polite communication of same.
Well, I don't think anyone is going to confuse this site with the GG site and no, I'm not going to post what GG stands for.
Ummmm I was just making a hooker reference. Cost extra to get sh#$ on type thing. I know it didn't fit well but I went with it.Quote: LarrySQuote: RonC
Don't walk in the owner's house and poop on the floor!
I wouldnt refer to this as someones "home". Homes do not have billboards in them generating income.
This is a place of business that trys to generate income by inviting people to these boards and using the visitation numbers to try to attract advertisers.
We are the customers.
Just as a customer can walk into Sams furniture store and tell the manager Sam that he doesnt like the way he runs his business and treats his customers. He doesnt like the "help" and the way they interact with others....its not Sams home. A customer has that right in most successful businesses
Now Sam can decide that the customer doesnt have that right in HIS store....and just tells the customer "dont let the door hit you"....
Its Sam's right in a free country to throw the complainer out, claim that his feelings were hurt, and on top of that ban them for days or forever. Thats fine, businessman Sam can certainly do that.
And then the other side of it.....Sam may see a reduction in furniture buying by those he "punished" and by those that heard about the treatment via word of mouth.
But I do agree if you knock on the persons door of their home, or call them on their private phone number and complain......that is indeed not good form...and scarey. If that happened I am with Ron C in condemning the person. Let me be the first to second Ron C's comment......never go to a managers home to discuss anything business related. Save that for the venue of the business.
So I don't know what your yammering on about (I got board reading and stopped.)
This forum is probably operating at a loss for Mike and sometimes just causes a ton of drama. It's filled with BS baccarat and other system players (The opposite of what I believe he wanted) and smart ass people (myself included).
Err, lack of social skills,. real friends, life outside of this forum springs to mind.Quote: WizardOh, for crying out loud. Why is there so much scrutiny and analysis of very ban? This is just an Internet forum.
Are you not requesting donations to keep keep this site up and running?Quote: Wizard"For those who get a ban and don't agree with it, learn to live with it. My house, my rules. If you don't like it here, this isn't the only forum out there".
What are you trying to say?Quote: ChowSoyErr, lack of social skills,. real friends, life outside of this forum springs to mind.
you see the same ID's day and out commenting about everything and anything, always having some to say, like it's some sort of social ritual compensation. Living out your life on the internet instead of in the real world.Quote: AxelWolfWhat are you trying to say?
A viable part.
Quote: ChowSoyyou see the same ID's day and out commenting about everything and anything, always having some to say, like it's some sort of social ritual compensation. Living out your life on the internet instead of in the real world.
My understanding is that the purpose of the forum is to enlighten individuals about the details of many various games in the casino to help educate, especially the new and uninformed, players.
Although I am unfamiliar with the phrase "social ritual compensation," my inference from your nine or so posts is:
(A) You enjoy the game of Baccarat
(B) You are offended by the idea that tracking "trends" in Baccarat is meaningless (which is the official stance of those who run these forums)
Quote: Trends
Most players will do so religiously and carefully analyze their card for trends as the winning hand switches back and forth from the banker to the player. This is a big waste of time! The smart player will bet on the banker every time and leave the score cards alone.
Taken from: https://wizardofodds.com/games/baccarat
(C) You then defensively attack the people on this forum for wasting their time after contemplating how you have possibly been wasting your own.
The difference with reading this forum is that you might learn something that resembles knowledge rather than superstition.
Superstitions are absolutely fun and entertaining. But this forum tends to focus on actual factual information that is backed by sound mathematics and analysis. Something that, possibly, others without such skills might associate with individuals lacking social skills and spending too much time on the computer, perhaps?
Quote: ChowSoyyou see the same ID's day and out commenting about everything and anything, always having some to say, like it's some sort of social ritual compensation. Living out your life on the internet instead of in the real world.
It's just when you say it, it makes it seem so negative.
I'm no DI however my results are the exact same but, you can give me a pass because I talked to my GF for at least 5 minutes this week.Quote: ChowSoyyou see the same ID's day and out commenting about everything and anything, always having some to say, like it's some sort of social ritual compensation. Living out your life on the internet instead of in the real world.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm no DI however my results are the exact same but, you can give me a pass because I talked to my GF for at least 5 minutes this week.
I think he meant ID's as in "screen names" not "dice influencers."
If anything, bac trend guys are more like dice influencers than the people that I think he is trying to attack. I think he's trying to attack people who do math and don't gamble on -EV games.
Thanks for reminding me on my post count, I didn't realise having made over 3000 posts on an internet forum actually carried weight, EvenBob will be proud. The first point "A" is correct, the second point "B" is simply your blinkered assumption.Quote: AhighMy understanding is that the purpose of the forum is to enlighten individuals about the details of many various games in the casino to help educate, especially the new and uninformed, players.
Although I am unfamiliar with the phrase "social ritual compensation," my inference from your nine or so posts is:
(A) You enjoy the game of Baccarat
(B) You are offended by the idea that tracking "trends" in Baccarat is meaningless (which is the official stance of those who run these forums)
This forum in no shape or form focus on 'actual factual information', perhaps 20% of posts, meet that critera.
Quote: LarrySI wouldnt refer to this as someones "home". Homes do not have billboards in them generating income.
This is a place of business that trys to generate income by inviting people to these boards and using the visitation numbers to try to attract advertisers.
We are the customers.
^
How do you feel about guys who do actually spend a lot of time on this message board but then they get suspended and then they make up a fake accounts?Quote: ChowSoyThanks for reminding me on my post count, I didn't realise having made over 3000 posts on an internet forum actually carried weight, EvenBob will be proud. The first point "A" is correct, the second point "B" is simply your blinkered assumption.
This forum in no shape or form focus on 'actual factual information', perhaps 20% of posts, meet that critera.
Quote: ChowSoyThanks for reminding me on my post count, I didn't realise having made over 3000 posts on an internet forum actually carried weight, EvenBob will be proud. The first point "A" is correct, the second point "B" is simply your blinkered assumption.
This forum in no shape or form focus on 'actual factual information', perhaps 20% of posts, meet that critera.
The forum's intention, and the purpose of the rules, is to keep things exactly on this track from my understanding. I think when you read forum you thought "users of this forum."
You are a user of the forum, for example, and I'm not talking about the users.
I'm talking about the forum itself. The forum does have a focus regardless of whether anyone appreciates that. I believe very firmly that the rules are intended to keep the forum on the track of the intended purpose of the forum. The forum is here to help people. And when it comes to Baccarat, it couldn't be any clearer that if you do anything besides bet banker each and every time, you're not playing as well as you could be.
Further, I think that this whole idea offends you, and you're taking that out on us here as users of the forum.
That's just what I think. But I could be wrong!
Quote: AxelWolfHow do you feel about guys who do actually spend a lot of time on this message board but then they get suspended and then they make up a fake accounts?
aww you beat me to it. :-(
Fair enough, but on this forum, we are not customers. We are the product.Quote: LarrySJust as a customer can walk into Sams furniture store and tell the manager Sam that he doesnt like the way he runs his business and treats his customers. He doesnt like the "help" and the way they interact with others....its not Sams home. A customer has that right in most successful businesses
Quote: JimRockfordFair enough, but on this forum, we are not customers. We are the product.
on this website "the product" is bovada and any other company that chooses to advertise based on the "visit" numbers.
the product is t-shirts for sale and any other items
the product is cash sent via pay pal for those viewing the contribution link
the product is the goodwill the owner garners by having a well populated biard as possible goodwill in getting future personal consulting jobs or future advertisers
we are the customers that allow the above listed to garner profits.
we are the customers that help create the stream of income from the items i listed above
if the stream of income that comes in is low....thats not our fault. that the fault of the business end of the operation.
so no we are not mere "products"....we are consumers
Just because something is free doesnt mean consumers of the free product is not involved.
Some flea markets are open to the public for free and some charge admission. Do the consumers of the 2 types of flea markets deserve to be treated with any less respect and consistancy?
This site is like a flea market of gambling. THere are things for the customers to look at and things to buy.
A flea market without people is just a bunch of crap
Or it might be like this.Quote: LarrySon this website "the product" is bovada and any other company that chooses to advertise based on the "visit" numbers.
the product is t-shirts for sale and any other items
the product is cash sent via pay pal for those viewing the contribution link
the product is the goodwill the owner garners by having a well populated biard as possible goodwill in getting future personal consulting jobs or future advertisers
we are the customers that allow the above listed to garner profits.
we are the customers that help create the stream of income from the items i listed above
if the stream of income that comes in is low....thats not our fault. that the fault of the business end of the operation.
so no we are not mere "products"....we are consumers
Just because something is free doesnt mean consumers of the free product is not involved.
Some flea markets are open to the public for free and some charge admission. Do the consumers of the 2 types of flea markets deserve to be treated with any less respect and consistancy?
This site is like a flea market of gambling. THere are things for the customers to look at and things to buy.
A flea market without people is just a bunch of crap
Someone decides to buy a small motel for extra income( Wizard of odds).
To compliment his motel he adds a pool (Wizard of Vegas) thinking it will be fun for his guests and possibly bring in more business. He even gets to use the pool himself. He even lets the neighborhood kids swim for free everyday.
Some people use the pool properly and are great guests, they don't wast towels, they don't leave trash all over (some even pick up trash if they see it laying around), They leave extra tips ( they never bring any glass to the pool). Some people love the pool and the owner so much they volunteer to be lifeguards for the since there are so many kids.
Unfortunately Some of the kids splash the other guests, some people trash the pool, break things and don't follow the rules. Some purposely break beer glasses for fun. This costs the owner extra time(equals money) and headaches.
Shutting down the pool would be a heart breaker for him, the good kids and the guests he really likes. Smart business might be to charge a "resort fee" (We all know how everyone loves that) since he probably hates "resort fees" himself, its something he wishes not to do.
Quote: AxelWolfOr it might be like this.
Someone decides to buy a small motel for extra income( Wizard of odds).
To compliment his motel he adds a pool (Wizard of Vegas) thinking it will be fun for his guests and possibly bring in more business. He even gets to use the pool himself. He even lets the neighborhood kids swim for free everyday.
Some people use the pool properly and are great guests, they don't wast towels, they don't leave trash all over (some even pick up trash if they see it laying around), They leave extra tips ( they never bring any glass to the pool). Some people love the pool and the owner so much they volunteer to be lifeguards for the since there are so many kids.
Unfortunately Some of the kids splash the other guests, some people trash the pool, break things and don't follow the rules. Some purposely break beer glasses for fun. This costs the owner extra time(equals money) and headaches.
Shutting down the pool would be a heart breaker for him, the good kids and the guests he really likes. Smart business might be to charge a "resort fee" (We all know how everyone loves that) since he probably hates "resort fees" himself, its something he wishes not to do.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Sam's furniture store makes more money (not less) by kicking out the patrons who shit on the floor.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Sam's furniture store makes more money (not less) by kicking out the patrons who shit on the floor.
We say "poo poo" here.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Sam's furniture store makes more money (not less) by kicking out the patrons who shit on the floor.
And it makes a nicer place to visit when they do send them packing.
Quote: BozAnd it makes a nicer place to visit when they do send them packing.
:-)
Quote: AxelWolfOr it might be like this.
Someone decides to buy a small motel for extra income( Wizard of odds).
To compliment his motel he adds a pool (Wizard of Vegas) thinking it will be fun for his guests and possibly bring in more business. He even gets to use the pool himself. He even lets the neighborhood kids swim for free everyday.
Some people use the pool properly and are great guests, they don't wast towels, they don't leave trash all over (some even pick up trash if they see it laying around), They leave extra tips ( they never bring any glass to the pool). Some people love the pool and the owner so much they volunteer to be lifeguards for the since there are so many kids.
Unfortunately Some of the kids splash the other guests, some people trash the pool, break things and don't follow the rules. Some purposely break beer glasses for fun. This costs the owner extra time(equals money) and headaches.
Shutting down the pool would be a heart breaker for him, the good kids and the guests he really likes. Smart business might be to charge a "resort fee" (We all know how everyone loves that) since he probably hates "resort fees" himself, its something he wishes not to do.
That was really good, Axel.
Something like: "This is a gambling board, and only posts which relate solely to gambling-related issues will be allowed. Personal comments and opinions on non-gambling issues are not allowed. Violators will be banned."
Quote: MrVSo then, taken to its logical conclusion: might not the Wiz adopt a new rule which REQUIRES that all posts be strictly gambling related?
Something like: "This is a gambling board, and only posts which relate solely to gambling-related issues will be allowed. Personal comments and opinions on non-gambling issues are not allowed. Violators will be banned."
If EVERY post had to be 100% gambling related, the volume of posts would drop. And some of the most interesting debates would also disappear. In other words, the forum would lose a bit of life, and the characters would also lose a bit of who they are. And once you get to a forum where there are only 2 or 3 posts a day, there is no reason to visit, other than once a week. Sort of describes a few dozen other boards around the net...... IMO
Quote: RaleighCrapsIf EVERY post had to be 100% gambling related, the volume of posts would drop. And some of the most interesting debates would also disappear. In other words, the forum would lose a bit of life, and the characters would also lose a bit of who they are. And once you get to a forum where there are only 2 or 3 posts a day, there is no reason to visit, other than once a week. Sort of describes a few dozen other boards around the net...... IMO
I agree with you.
But at times this board reminds me of a bunch of cripples whacked out on Prozac and Oxycontin trying to beat each other with their canes.
Entertaining, but not informative.
Quote: djatcWhich one of you kids pee in the pool?
Depends
There is no need for analogies. The site is not a flea market or s store. It is not like a business. It IS a business. The advertisers provide the revenue and are therefore customers. We provide the traffic and some of us provide content, atmosphere, community, etc. that generate traffic. In short we bring value to the the sponsors. We are the product. Mike tries to shape the quality and characteristics of the product by moderating us. I don't contribute much, so I don't have much standing to bitch about how the site is moderated. Your complaints and criticisms have weight to the extent that your contributions support Mike's vision of site quality.Quote: LarrySon this website "the product" is bovada and any other company that chooses to advertise based on the "visit" numbers.
the product is t-shirts for sale and any other items
the product is cash sent via pay pal for those viewing the contribution link
the product is the goodwill the owner garners by having a well populated biard as possible goodwill in getting future personal consulting jobs or future advertisers
we are the customers that allow the above listed to garner profits.
we are the customers that help create the stream of income from the items i listed above
if the stream of income that comes in is low....thats not our fault. that the fault of the business end of the operation.
so no we are not mere "products"....we are consumers
Just because something is free doesnt mean consumers of the free product is not involved.
Some flea markets are open to the public for free and some charge admission. Do the consumers of the 2 types of flea markets deserve to be treated with any less respect and consistancy?
This site is like a flea market of gambling. THere are things for the customers to look at and things to buy.
A flea market without people is just a bunch of crap
