Discussion about the Suspension List
Quote: BuzzardGee, second guessing the judge seems to be a popular pastime !
And apparently it is sometimes successful!
Personally I think that it is a good thing. While the moderators' authority is certainly not in question, they are all logical people (this is the Wizard's site after all!) and one trait that logical people share is that they are willing to change their minds when confronted by a logical argument.
In other words, something like this increases my (already high levels of) respect for the moderators -- it doesn't decrease it.
I generally try to stay out of commenting in this thread since I have enough drama in my life already. However, I just wanted to applaud you for taking the time to listen/read arguments as to your recent actions, and then having enough moxie to admit you may have been too harsh. I like your reasoning now much better.
I actually went the other way with the picture. You saw it as premeditated and a bad thing. I saw it as someone who was being creative, and someone who was smiling and laughing as he called someone a ***********. IMO, creativity should merit credits in the poster's favor, instead of work against them.
I don't wish to make policing the forum any more difficult, but I hate to see long time members who have never had problems get suspended based on a post or two. I would prefer a warning first that they have crossed the line, for other than the most serious of transgressions. However, the warning should be a once in a lifetime thing. JMO
I am concerned about the thread derailment charge that was levied though, since that seems to be my specialty. Hmmmm
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAnd apparently it is sometimes successful!
Personally I think that it is a good thing. While the moderators' authority is certainly not in question, they are all logical people (this is the Wizard's site after all!) and one trait that logical people share is that they are willing to change their minds when confronted by a logical argument.
In other words, something like this increases my (already high levels of) respect for the moderators -- it doesn't decrease it.
This in indeed a precedent setting occasion. I remember saying to a judge " IDIOT ". He fined me $20 for contempt of court.
When he saw me opening my wallet, he said I had to pay the clerk. I told him I was just checking to see if I had enough for 2 more words.
Very well adjudicated, and if I could speak any more highly of you, I would. Very much appreciated.
Quote: beachbumbabsif I could speak any more highly of you, I would.
Me too. Insert pic of Pierce at trash can here,
I'm too lazy. Ah, fame is so fleeting..
Quote: tringlomaneI think you're about 27 days too harsh on that suspension for that first offense. Yes, first offense!! Until the last post, I was thinking BizzyB should have been the one closer to being suspended in that thread.
And what Jufo81 was arguing was valid for a special case and gave info to back that up, which BizzyB immediately dismissed. When reaching a win goal had some special value for the player. Generally sure it's wrong if your goal is to maximize money and nothing else, but the title of the thread was: "Can a set win goal affect strategy?"
An extreme example I just made up: If you get shot in the head when you go broke on a ten unit bankroll, but get set free when you win ten or more units, you don't double down 11 when you are nine units up.
Maybe Jufo81 should have used this example earlier when trying to explain to this to BizzyB.
The mod suspends this guy giving out complete nonsensical advice to players asking questions, telling them that the card counter is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, and you all beg him to reduce the penalty? Thanks everyone.
So, would any of you take his advice? Who here plays with an advantage over the casino? Who here plays with a disadvantage higher than the casino anticipates for the average player? I'm thinking, based on what I've been reading, that most fall into the second category. People of the same skill level stick together, maybe that's the real issue. I'm always getting yelled at in the casino by terrible players who think they are experts, and they often band together and make up rules out of thin air to explain how gambling works. Any APs here to defend the guilty and say why it's my fault, or no?
Quote: RaleighCraps
I don't wish to make policing the forum any more difficult, but I hate to see long time members who have never had problems get suspended based on a post or two. I would prefer a warning first that they have crossed the line, for other than the most serious of transgressions. However, the warning should be a once in a lifetime thing. JMO
All due respect to your opinion, but I tried intervening not once but twice in that thread. Both of them agreed and stated they saw my point and understood, and then in the very next sentence in the same post resumed their sniping and childishness with each other.
Is a warning only a warning if it comes from one in green? And should any reasonable adult need even one?
Quote: FaceQuote: RaleighCraps
I don't wish to make policing the forum any more difficult, but I hate to see long time members who have never had problems get suspended based on a post or two. I would prefer a warning first that they have crossed the line, for other than the most serious of transgressions. However, the warning should be a once in a lifetime thing. JMO
All due respect to your opinion, but I tried intervening not once but twice in that thread. Both of them agreed and stated they saw my point and understood, and then in the very next sentence in the same post resumed their sniping and childishness with each other.
Is a warning only a warning if it comes from one in green? And should any reasonable adult need even one?
I may have thrown out a comment or two into mid-air after that, but as you recall, I immediately stopped flagging and blocked him. I think I was at least teenage about it.
Quote: BizzyBThe mod suspends this guy giving out complete nonsensical advice to players asking questions, telling them that the card counter is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, and you all beg him to reduce the penalty? Thanks everyone.
So, would any of you take his advice? Who here plays with an advantage over the casino? Who here plays with a disadvantage higher than the casino anticipates for the average player? I'm thinking, based on what I've been reading, that most fall into the second category. People of the same skill level stick together, maybe that's the real issue. I'm always getting yelled at in the casino by terrible players who think they are experts, and they often band together and make up rules out of thin air to explain how gambling works. Any APs here to defend the guilty and say why it's my fault, or no?
I think you're conflating the free expression of an opinion, no matter how much you might disagree with it, and the demeanor you must maintain towards others on this board, and have been throughout this argument, and in fact since you joined. You might recall I PM'd you on your first day suggesting that your approach to posting might be too aggressive and demeaning for the general readership (can't recall the topic, and not to say I'm anybody's Mom...lol), and while you were receptive and didn't shoot the messenger, more than a few of your posts since have run right up to the line, and a couple went over, since you made the wall of shame.
If Jufo was wrong, prove him wrong on the merits; if he's right, he can defend his position on the merits as vigorously as he feels he must. Neither one of you will be allowed to be personally insulting, demeaning, contemptuous, or just plain rude to the other while you do it. The AP's on this board may well agree with what you're saying on the merits, but few people on here are interested in jumping into a dogfight. And that's why several of us (me=non-AP) had opinions on the suspensions; both of you were taking the level of discourse into personal attacks. I won't go so far as to call it "trolling", but you were both provoking each other. I didn't make the rules, and I don't moderate the board, but this is how it is if you want to be here.
Quote: beachbumbabs (adjusted)
If someone was wrong, prove him wrong on the merits; if he's right, he can defend his position on the merits as vigorously as he feels he must. No one will be allowed to be personally insulting, demeaning, contemptuous, or just plain rude to the other while you do it.
Cut and paste this into the rule book. Nailed it.
Quote: beachbumbabsI think you're conflating the free expression of an opinion, no matter how much you might disagree with it, and the demeanor you must maintain towards others on this board, and have been throughout this argument, and in fact since you joined. You might recall I PM'd you on your first day suggesting that your approach to posting might be too aggressive and demeaning for the general readership (can't recall the topic, and not to say I'm anybody's Mom...lol), and while you were receptive and didn't shoot the messenger, more than a few of your posts since have run right up to the line, and a couple went over, since you made the wall of shame.
If Jufo was wrong, prove him wrong on the merits; if he's right, he can defend his position on the merits as vigorously as he feels he must. Neither one of you will be allowed to be personally insulting, demeaning, contemptuous, or just plain rude to the other while you do it. The AP's on this board may well agree with what you're saying on the merits, but few people on here are interested in jumping into a dogfight. And that's why several of us (me=non-AP) had opinions on the suspensions; both of you were taking the level of discourse into personal attacks. I won't go so far as to call it "trolling", but you were both provoking each other. I didn't make the rules, and I don't moderate the board, but this is how it is if you want to be here.
What is discussed in PMs is confidential. You are indicating to the general public, possibly falsely, that you took it upon yourself to warn me of this very event on my first day here? Please.
It is none of your business. You didn't contribute to the thread. You just want to have a vote in the soap opera. Ridiculous. In addition, you and the rest of your non-AP brethren are, essentially, defending him on the merits, under the guise of attacking my demeanor. Go back and read his posts. He thinks you all think he is right (on the merits) and that I am wrong. That's proof enough for me.
Quote: BizzyBWhat is discussed in PMs is confidential. You are indicating to the general public, possibly falsely, that you took it upon yourself to warn me of this very event on my first day here? Please.
It is none of your business. You didn't contribute to the thread. You just want to have a vote in the soap opera. Ridiculous. In addition, you and the rest of your non-AP brethren are, essentially, defending him on the merits, under the guise of attacking my demeanor. Go back and read his posts. He thinks you all think he is right (on the merits) and that I am wrong. That's proof enough for me.
I can never understand why people need to complain and argue. If you don't like the way things are run or if you don't agree with the members then just move on. There are plenty of other places to go if this place doesn't suit your personality.
Quote: BuzzardBack to square one. Someone has to draw the line between slander and stating an obvious fact.
Like saying that 'your system is complete nonsense and youre a ploppy' then being attacked by non-APs because its just my opinion and for not proving this on the merits? I generally agree.
Quote: GWAEI can never understand why people need to complain and argue. If you don't like the way things are run or if you don't agree with the members then just move on. There are plenty of other places to go if this place doesn't suit your personality.
Don't agree with the members? The non-APs who enjoy melodrama...are you seriously saying I'm supposed to adopt non-AP methods, defend these indefensible methods, and enjoy people putting me in their soap opera when they should be talking about gambling? OK, I'll take that well thought out advice under consideration. At least a few people, for whatever reason, just focused on Jufu and left me out of it. But others decided to beg that I be suspended. I seriously doubt I did anything in that thread to warrant serious consideration for a ban from the moderators at any point, but I do believe it is part of their job to listen to people and make sure people on the site remain happy...but I am an AP, I'm an idiot.
I have taken no stake in your argument, but we have a shared interest in mutual respect being maintained and the enjoyment of a group discussion; at least I do, and I hope you do. If you're right about what you're saying, and you don't think he gets it, find a better way to convince him or just step away from it, or if your concern is really that he's putting out bad information and someone will follow it, continue to correct the problem with facts and examples. If he's cherry-picking other comments and drawing wrong conclusions, that's his problem.
Quote: beachbumbabsMission,
Very well adjudicated, and if I could speak any more highly of you, I would. Very much appreciated.
Thanks for the compliment!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/16677-can-a-set-win-goal-affect-strategy/6/#post317938
He is banned for thirty days for Trolling.
You had a free pass, man, could have banned you and didn't. Should have. Borderline, gave you the benefit of the doubt. Nope, definitely trolling.
You know when you've crossed the line. If you don't well, that's on you.
This is not the Philosophy forum. Nor a re-education center.
Quote: Mission146He is banned for thirty days for Trolling.
You enjoyed that banning way too much, you're
on the bench for 20min penalty. Mods are not
supposed to have fun.
Quote: BuzzardMy point exactly. The moderator does not have to explain to anyone why he bounced somebody. This is a private enterprise.
You know when you've crossed the line. If you don't well, that's on you.
This is not the Philosophy forum. Nor a re-education center.
The first two points are easy to understand and are all anyone needs to know. Knowing when a line is crossed is not so easy. We all know right from wrong but the line is blurry and constantly moving. That sends mixed signals.
A guy gets suspended for 30 days, forum members appeal, the suspension gets rescinded and the other guy gets 30 days for posting "Hallelujeh". Yes, I know it was more than that. Since requests are taken I'd like to ask that BizzyB's suspension be reconsidered.
There is a generation gap here where someone in their 20s or 30s may not understand or may misinterpret thoughts, phrases or jokes from someone in their 60s or 70s. The politically correct nonsense falls into this category. Yes, a lot of today's political correctness is just that - nonsense. Someone says something or uses a term that they grew up with, a term that was totally acceptable their entire life but is suddenly a politically incorrect and horrible person.
A perfect example of that, and of mixed signals, is something that happened here a while back. A guy made a joke about two people being in the same room together. It was a very harmless, innocent joke, a joke that every stand up comedian had in his repertoire. He got suspended for it and then reinstated by a secret administrator. The secret administrator was then relieved of his duties.
Is it just me or does anyone else think that our latest secret administrator may be a woman?
Quote: 1BBA guy gets suspended for 30 days, forum members appeal, the suspension gets rescinded and the other guy gets 30 days for posting "Hallelujeh". Yes, I know it was more than that. Since requests are taken I'd like to ask that BizzyB's suspension be reconsidered.
I tried to stay out of this whole thing, but from my understanding the ban of jufo was reconsidered seeing as it was his first offense and a long time member. The ban of bizzyb was such a length because he had already been banned twice and the martingale rule was not followed for the second ban, so if it were to follow suit with the third ban following the martingale rule, that his ban would be much longer.
Granted I don't believe the hallelujah should have gotten him banned, I do believe his actions prior in the thread should have. This all started because someone asked should your basic strategy change with a win goal in mind and jufo was answering to that extent and bizzyb was looking at it from a counters perspective and saying no you shouldn't. Granted I don't know whose answer is correct, it seems jufo was answering the question asked to the best of his math ability and bizzyb was going from an experience stand point. Both should have respected each others opinions as well as try to answer the topic of the question. Both derailed the thread with their dispute which also seems to have come from prior threads they both posted in(those I have not read).
It seems the animosity was inevitable, but from a standpoint of someone who has moderated several forums, and based on the rules of this forum, I think the punishment is just. They both should have been banned, the only gray area is on how long and basing it on the rules guideline the lengths seem just.
Quote: Moscajuicyjennie? Wow.
That's not who I was thinking of but all she has to do is ask. Nothing would surprise me. That would be a way to get into her um good graces.
Now back to the thread: BizzyB came out from wherever he came from and posted 125/mo average, on numerous threads, and most if not all posts had little merit IMNSHO and many were contentious. For this reason among others 30 days seems right
Quote: TranscendI tried to stay out of this whole thing, but from my understanding the ban of jufo was reconsidered seeing as it was his first offense and a long time member. The ban of bizzyb was such a length because he had already been banned twice and the martingale rule was not followed for the second ban, so if it were to follow suit with the third ban following the martingale rule, that his ban would be much longer.
Granted I don't believe the hallelujah should have gotten him banned, I do believe his actions prior in the thread should have. This all started because someone asked should your basic strategy change with a win goal in mind and jufo was answering to that extent and bizzyb was looking at it from a counters perspective and saying no you shouldn't.
It seems the animosity was inevitable, but from a standpoint of someone who has moderated several forums, and based on the rules of this forum, I think the punishment is just. They both should have been banned, the only gray area is on how long and basing it on the rules guideline the lengths seem just.
I appreciate the support and could not have done a better job explaining my position than you did for me. There was a, "Dancing on the grave," quality of the, "Hallelujah," post that definitely rose to the level of Trolling which led me to the final conclusion that all of the crap before that was definitely Trolling/Baiting, for which I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Again, it came down to nothing more or less than Trolling and thinking he was going to be cute. I don't care that the word used is, "Hallelujah," I care about the open celebration of someone with whom you were in an altercation getting banned, which obviously amounts to trolling.
Quote: Mission146
When I say a VERY short leash, I mean that if BizzyB gets Suspended for anything this calendar year, he will enjoy the thirty day Suspension originally meted out to Jufo81, especially since I inadvertently didn't Martingale his last Suspension, so this is two essentially free passes now.
It took him less than a day, fair Warning. Even if it could be argued that he did not read this prior to making that post, he could have went back and Edited the post.
Quote: BizzyBLike saying that 'your system is complete nonsense and youre a ploppy' then being attacked by non-APs because its just my opinion and for not proving this on the merits? I generally agree.
Perhaps this will help when you return if you choose to do so.
Despite the great math and other information, this in not an AP site. You, like me, are an AP. We think like APs and we react like APs. It took me a while to realize that not everyone thinks like us or the other APs who post here. It was even harder a few years ago because this site was mostly casino or gambling related.
Once I realized that, I stopped reacting to every incorrect blackjack post. Before that, whenever anyone complained that third base took the dealer's break card, hit or didn't hit who knows what or made them lose in any other way, I was right there to tell them it didn't matter. I don't usually do that as a first reaction anymore, instead I wait for more interesting posts. When someone goes online or reads a snippet from a book and starts posting as an expert or makes outrageous claims of winning it doesn't take long to see through them.
Like you, I have a lot of experience and am always more than happy to discuss blackjack with anyone who truly wants to learn. This works for me and maybe it can for you as well. I am in no way referring to the dust up between you and Juno because I hardly read any of it.
Quote: 1BBThat's not who I was thinking of but all she has to do is ask. Nothing would surprise me. That would be a way to get into her um good graces.
Since there are very few women on here, and I've gotten in the middle of this, here's the extent of my involvement. Not assuming you're referring to me, but it seems likely.
Right when Bizzy joined, the board was having a dust-up and people got banned. He got on here, got into a discussion with someone right away where he ended up calling them a name or names (like people do routinely on most other boards like this). I don't PM a lot of people for any reason, but I thought he sounded interesting and was new, so I wrote him to say, "Hey, you may not know this, but the mods won't ignore the insults; you might want to edit your posts." (Paraphrased) More like fellow prisoners (joke) than hall monitor; a word to the wise, whatever you might call it.
There are two other new and interesting people where I did the same over the 8 months I've been on here, if I happened to see it before the mods did. So shoot me; they're still posting and interesting, rather than getting banned for not knowing the rules here before they posted the first few days. It was not obvious to me how moderated for content the forum was when I joined, so I figure it's not obvious to other people either.
Haven't spoken to Bizzy since until this thread, publicly or privately. Haven't flagged him, PM'd about him, or complained about him; might have interacted while in the same thread at the most, but nothing stands out. Didn't appeal Jufo's suspension or lobby for Bizzy to be suspended, or get involved at all beyond what I said here about it.
Quote: Moscajuicyjennie? Wow.
there is zero chance "juciejennie" is a "secret admin."
Quote: sodawaterthere is zero chance "juciejennie" is a "secret admin."
Hey. All the molecules in the room could go over to the other side and cause you to suffocate, if you don't watch what you're saying.
Quote: 1BBAre you a secret administrator?
I think this question is inappropriate. Secrets admins are just that -- secret. If a secret admin are asked this anyway, then he/she is allowed to lie about it, as am I.
If you don't want to get lied to, then don't ask about secrets in the first place.
+1Quote: chickenmanNow back to the thread: BizzyB came out from wherever he came from and posted 125/mo average, on numerous threads, and most if not all posts had little merit IMNSHO and many were contentious. For this reason among others 30 days seems right
I'm always skeptical whenever new members come out of nowhere and then start posting like mad. Someone should check his IP.
Quote: Beethoven9thSomeone should check his IP.
You don't give me enough credit.
Quote: Mission146You don't give me enough credit.
Ah, sorry. :)
$50. You mean he's not? Dang it, there's 50 bucks I'll
never see again..
But if your check does not clear, you will be banned.
I find this a bit troubling, if its true. I might send a PM to this secret administrator, something that I may not be comfortable sending to a administrator for one reason or the other.
Quote: AxelWolf
I find this a bit troubling, if its true..
LOL, there's been one for a couple of years, I
thought there were a couple, actually. This
is certainly not news, it's been discussed over
and over. One of them even got fired because
he reinstated me when he wasn't supposed
to. And that was a long time ago.
Quote: WizardI think this question is inappropriate. Secrets admins are just that -- secret. If a secret admin are asked this anyway, then he/she is allowed to lie about it, as am I.
If you don't want to get lied to, then don't ask about secrets in the first place.
There are those mixed signals that I mentioned earlier. I good naturedly asked DJ that question many times and no one ever objected. It was a question that I didn't expect an answer to and I think he knew that. I will not ask that question again. I can't remember the last time I saw something inappropriate on this forum.
"A secret is something you tell to only one person at a time."Quote: WizardIf you don't want to get lied to, then don't ask about secrets in the first place.
Quote: AxelWolfI must have missed something. Whats with all this secret administrator stuff? Is this true, this forum has a secret administrator? Whats the purpose of that? What dose a secret administrator do? Can they suspend people and other things, or do they just tell some other administrator? I don't get it.
Nothing special, they just know who really killed JFK.
Its news to me, I had absolutely no clue, can you link me to the discussion. can you answer some of my questions. How dose this work. whats the reason? Its like having a rat/spy in your mist. If I sent a PM to one of the secret administrators could they then discuss this with a different administrator.Quote: EvenBobLOL, there's been one for a couple of years, I
thought there were a couple, actually. This
is certainly not news, it's been discussed over
and over. One of them even got fired because
he reinstated me when he wasn't supposed
to. And that was a long time ago.
Quote: AxelWolfIf I sent a PM to one of the secret administrators could they then discuss this with a different administrator.
Regular members can do this already.
