Discussion about the Suspension List

Quote: jjjoooggg

Is Exoter175 banned? Is that what restricted means?

He hasn't read my messages.

Yes he got nuked too for pushing things too far. And this forum now is a lot more cautious with boisterous new members than they used to be, imo.

I'm impressed with these latest going-away rants. So long 1BB and kerkebet, it was fun.

And loved how the latter added RS's avatar in the post. Lol

I only have 215 posts total. I feel like a newbie.

Quote: jjjoooggg

I only have 215 posts total. I feel like a newbie.

Nothing succeeds like excess.

Aim high: send your post count to the moon.

Pontificate and pronounce your opinion on any subject under the sun, depending on your mood or level of intoxication.

A proven formula.

Quote: jjjoooggg

Now, I'm curious what you said. But they deleted it anyway.

I spoke about an evil woman who lied that she was pregnant and stole an unborn baby from someone she claimed was her friend, killing the woman in the process. I mentioned it was a morbid thread in the title.

Thanks, Mission, for commenting on the last part of my post.

Quote: RonC

Is it an insult to say that you believe someone is a sock puppet or not real (or whatever) if they are a member in good standing and it has not been proven? I think it should be...if you have proof someone is a sock, either send your evidence to the mods or get over it. Other than that, I think it should be considered an insult to a member in good standing.

I am assuming that members in bad standing are already gone....

I see conversations about whether or not people are socks and yet the alleged socks are still here, so they have not been judged to be such. I think that would make those comments personal insults, not unlike saying someone is a troll if you feel as if they are indeed a troll but others feel otherwise.

I am asking this question specifically of the moderators, but I'd enjoy hearing what anyone else has to say, too.

Quote: RonC

I see conversations about whether or not people are socks and yet the alleged socks are still here, so they have not been judged to be such. I think that would make those comments personal insults, not unlike saying someone is a troll if you feel as if they are indeed a troll but others feel otherwise.

I am asking this question specifically of the moderators, but I'd enjoy hearing what anyone else has to say, too.

I obviously haven't considered it insult up to this point. Several accusations have been made in the past with no corrections coming from me, and I personally just insinuated same just a few days ago.

I'm not entirely sure where I stand on it. I don't think it's a secret that I somewhat appreciate and maybe even enjoy the interrogators here. I like the detectives, I like it when people use their brain, I enjoy watching the process. Certainly, there is a point where it becomes a negative. There was a time when every new member was pounced upon by 5 or 6 different people immediately upon their arrival, and it went on for a few months. That's a little much; it creates an unwelcoming atmosphere. But sometimes... it just feels like it needs be said. I dunno. Too much good info has come from said judgements and I haven't seen a ton of negative. Kentry was accused, he's still here. Dodsford was accused, he didn't get scared away. Axel's a big detective, he hasn't seemed to have created enemies or been a lightning rod of controversy.

I guess my stance is a WIP, but the above is where it's at for now. Sorry if it's not as clear as you hoped =)

(Remember, I'm a cop not a congressman. The above is not a declaration of a rule, just my interpretation of it. Other Greens may enforce differently.)

I really do enjoy being here, Face. :)

Glad to hear it, enjoy your stay =)

Quote: RonC

I think that would make those comments personal insults,

I would think that constantly questioning
the judgements of the mods here should
be taken as a personal insult by the mods.
In almost 19,000 posts I have never once
questioned what a mod did here. It's
not my business, and I really don't care
anyway. The amount of energy people
give to how an online forum is being
run is astounding to me. I certainly
have better things to do than worry
about this place.

Quote: RonC

Thanks, Mission, for commenting on the last part of my post.



I see conversations about whether or not people are socks and yet the alleged socks are still here, so they have not been judged to be such. I think that would make those comments personal insults, not unlike saying someone is a troll if you feel as if they are indeed a troll but others feel otherwise.

I am asking this question specifically of the moderators, but I'd enjoy hearing what anyone else has to say, too.

I can't give you a ruling to fit all cases; though we have rules, I haven't seen many situations that were black and white (on this subject or several other types of violation). As I posted at the time, when every new account was being put through interrogation and insinuation, it was a very volatile situation and not good for the forum as a whole. At the same time, some of those accusations were valid, so I don't know how they could be considered insults.

There's also a standard of proof that needs to be met (of sockpuppetry or trolling), well beyond an accusation. Again, those can be individual in nature, and I'd prefer not to detail the process. At times, there was strong suspicion, and inquiries were made, but the evidence was short of proof. At other times, there was a waiting period necessary to strengthen the intimation into something more solid.

This, to me, is a jumping-off point as well, to respond to some of the accusations from 1BB and Kerkebet. There have been numerous back-and-forths between me and Mike, and sometimes the other moderators as well, discussing what a particular situation calls for. It's easy to simply hit the ban-button; it's much harder to document reasons, apply standards fairly across members, warn some, ignore some, ban some.

Mike has not been willing to act on insinuations, his personal like or dislike of members, or vague indications of issues to come. He takes these choices seriously each time (and nearly every time is a unique set of problems), and cares all the more out of his personal ethics concerning freedom of speech, bullying, accuracy in statements, fairness, and owning his decisions regardless of pushback. So he's often the one who doesn't want to move forward on a ban when it seems obvious to members or even other moderators. Much of what happens doesn't appear in the threads, so it's perhaps understandable that 1BB/Kerke would not know more than they did in making their accusations, but those accusations have little, if any, basis in fact. Since they're not here to continue the argument about that, I'll drop it there.

I acknowledge what Face said above, about different moderators having different ways of operating. I think it would be impossible for us, operating mostly independently, to agree on every ban, but I think we (the four of us doing content) have a compatible understanding of the rules and their application that works well on the board a large percentage of the time. And we enjoy the support of the new owners to date, who are certainly able to issue guidance or make changes if they choose to, which they haven't.

If it needs to be said, I fully support the bannings of 1BB and Kerkebet, both caused by their own words and actions as evidenced in this thread, not by some personal vendetta on any green's part.

Not sure what else can be said, but willing to discuss it more if necessary.

Quote: EvenBob

I would think that constantly questioning
the judgements of the mods here should
be taken as a personal insult by the mods.
In almost 19,000 posts I have never once
questioned what a mod did here. It's
not my business, and I really don't care
anyway. The amount of energy people
give to how an online forum is being
run is astounding to me. I certainly
have better things to do than worry
about this place.

...and I would think that asking a couple of simple questions about something is just fine. This is, after all, a "Discussion of the Suspension List" and my question is relevant. It appears from comments above and below this that at least two mods don't agree with me, and I would say you don't even think I should be allowed to ask a question or two among several thousand posts, and that is just fine with me. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am.

Talk about time and energy...nearly 19,000 posts...wow!!

Quote: beachbumbabs

If it needs to be said, I fully support the bannings of 1BB and Kerkebet, both caused by their own words and actions as evidenced in this thread, not by some personal vendetta on any green's part.

No more needs be said. Two mods don't think accusing someone of something like being a sock is an insult; that is good enough for me.

As I said earlier, I said my goodbyes to 1BB before I left for the game yesterday...I was sure he would be out of here by the time I got back. He knew what was coming, as did the rest of us.

Thanks, Face. :)

Quote: RonC

No more needs be said. Two mods don't think accusing someone of something like being a sock is an insult; that is good enough for me.

As I said earlier, I said my goodbyes to 1BB before I left for the game yesterday...I was sure he would be out of here by the time I got back. He knew what was coming, as did the rest of us.

I don't entirely disagree with you, RonC. I think, if you're the recipient of such an accusation, it's off-putting at a minimum. It's why a couple people got warnings about doing it when it got out of hand. It's still disconcerting even though it's died down some, because it's a way to discredit a poster's opinion by attacking the source, rather than making a counter-argument. But defining it as an insult, by way of the zero tolerance policy now in place, would go too far. I think we have to have the ability to work it on a case-by-case basis to be fair.

Quote: RonC

Thanks, Mission, for commenting on the last part of my post.



I see conversations about whether or not people are socks and yet the alleged socks are still here, so they have not been judged to be such. I think that would make those comments personal insults, not unlike saying someone is a troll if you feel as if they are indeed a troll but others feel otherwise.

I am asking this question specifically of the moderators, but I'd enjoy hearing what anyone else has to say, too.

A.). You're welcome.

B.). I think that there is a definite line between an inquiry and a direct accusation, but even then, I'm willing to let direct accusations go to a minimal extent. There is certainly a point, however, where the inquiries, or to a greater extent the accusations, can become pervasive to the point that they are Trolling in and of themselves.

Furthermore, I would also point out that there is an, "Ignore," function for a reason. If a Member believes another Member may be a sock or troll, then the first Member need not read the second Member's posts. On the other hand, I have to read them.

I agree with your insinuation that there needs to be some discussion amongst us, as Moderators, as to what point the inquiries and accusations become Trolling or Personal Insults in and of themselves. I would say that for Members who cannot be proven to be Trolls or Socks, pervasive inquiries and accusations prohibit them from being able to enjoy Forum Membership as they should.

Therefore, I think we should probably discuss some tactics on dealing with this sort of thing. Any Member in good standing should be afforded the same rights and protections, and should have the same ability to enjoy the Forum, as our long-standing Members.

Quote: RonC

Talk about time and energy...nearly 19,000 posts...wow!!

And none of them wringing my hands worrying
about what a mod is doing. Am I glad 1BB is gone?
You bet. This is one of the few threads I read and
I got sick to death of his whining, especially about
Babs. I tried blocking, but that means anybody
answering one of his posts is blocked too, so it's
not worth it. So buhby 1BB, adios and if I had
something to do with your ban, that's icing on
the cake for me.

Quote: Mission146

Therefore, I think we should probably discuss some tactics on dealing with this sort of thing. Any Member in good standing should be afforded the same rights and protections, and should have the same ability to enjoy the Forum, as our long-standing Members.

What constitutes being a "member in good standing." at least as compared to "long-standing members?"

Is a newbie, simply by virtue of making their first post, afforded that level of protection, or should they have to somehow demonstrate via the content of their posts and the inferences to be drawn from them that they are the real deal?

Until reasonable doubt is gone, shouldn't a newbie's bonafides be subject to strict scrutiny?

Otherwise a clever sock could sign on, act the fool and thereby create mayhem, avenge old slights, and basically wreak havoc.

For the record, I'm just a nobody here.

Maybe the new programming team could implement individual post count controls to control socks, spammers and trolls.

It's all done by the overloads. They like what the see, they keep your post count per day up. They don't, they don't say anything they just start dialing it down. Maybe the most troublesome get turned down to 1 or 2 posts permitted per day. Never institute any bans or say anything. Just literally start turning individual posters to the "off" position.

Give me hunger games or thunder dome. I like gaming, survival, and challenge. Oh wait, it's just a forum.

Quote: rxwine

Maybe the new programming team could implement individual post count controls to control socks, spammers and trolls.

It's all done by the overloads. They like what the see, they keep your post count per day up. They don't, they don't say anything they just start dialing it down. Maybe the most troublesome get turned down to 1 or 2 posts permitted per day. Never institute any bans or say anything. Just literally start turning individual posters to the "off" position.

Give me hunger games or thunder dome. I like gaming, survival, and challenge. Oh wait, it's just a forum.

Having a submit-posts-for-moderation feature, like a lot of other boards and comment sites have, would have saved enormous amounts of trouble over the years. Could be for new posters, but also for remedial issues. Mickeycrimm wrote me the other day (said to say hi!) and mentioned that he's posting new plays at vpfree, where they're doing this for him and killing the drunk-posts before they get him in trouble. Don't know whether it would have been worth the extra work overall, but it certainly helps with spam and some other things.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

For the record, I'm just a nobody here.

Haha.

I fly under the radar too.

Let me address the question of whether accusing somebody of being a sock puppet is considered a personal insult. My position is that there is not a clear yes or no answer. If the accusation is leveled at otherwise a good member without evidence, I would likely find it insulting. If the accusation is made of a borderline troll with good evidence, I would probably let it go. Of course, there are going to be situations in the middle where we mods will have to make a judgement call.

Should anybody not want to risk getting into the grey area, my advice would be to not make any accusations at all, especially without evidence. Then again, I must admit I thought the controversy about whether JerryLogan was Rob Singer to entertaining and Jerry seemed to not take any offense at it. Again, for now we'll take it on a case by case basis.

Quote: Wizard

...Then again, I must admit I thought the controversy about whether JerryLogan was Rob Singer to entertaining and Jerry seemed to not take any offense at it...

I read a post by Singer somewhere on another site a long while back where he actually admitted he was JL. I wish I could find it again.

Interesting...new member with the name "backedoff"

Quote: MrV

What constitutes being a "member in good standing." at least as compared to "long-standing members?"

Is a newbie, simply by virtue of making their first post, afforded that level of protection, or should they have to somehow demonstrate via the content of their posts and the inferences to be drawn from them that they are the real deal?

Until reasonable doubt is gone, shouldn't a newbie's bonafides be subject to strict scrutiny?

Otherwise a clever sock could sign on, act the fool and thereby create mayhem, avenge old slights, and basically wreak havoc.

A.). Any Member who is not banned is in good standing, provided they have no other banned accounts. Long-Standing would just refer to people who have been here a long time, so that's more of a subjective determination.

I guess my point is that it doesn't feel very welcoming to a new Member in good standing to have aspersions cast upon him or her by a long-standing Member. Particularly not repeatedly.

B.) I don't know what the real deal is. In terms of what?

C.). Reasonable doubt of what?

I understand the point you are making, but aside from not having another account, especially not a Nuked one, there are no prerequisites to posting here. No gambling knowledge required or anything like that. Thus, in terms of Personal Insults, there are ways for someone to say what he or she wants to say without insulting or attacking somebody.

For instance, Kentry mentioned his, "Gambling Adventures," earlier today. If I wanted to indicate that I am not impressed with posts so related, I don't need to accuse Kentry of anything, I could say something like:

Based on what you have written, if you call those, "Gambling Adventures," then I am going to refer to my next visit to the doctor for routine blood work as my, "Medical Adventures."

As you can see, I have indicated that, "Gambling Adventures," are a drastic overstatement of the case without insulting Kentry personally or accusing him of anything. At the same time, I got my point across in aa sarcastic manner and the tone of my post is highly mocking. Yet, with all that, I did not violate any Board Rules.

Kentry's tag line should be....

Why is everybody always picking on me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaGKxAgCguU

B79 fans will love the end.

The thing with Kentry is how he can write like a normal, reasonable everyday adult, at times, like when he posted about how Casinos love to take advantage of drunk players, who will make irresponsible high bets in their intoxication, but most of the time, he is writing just plain weird stuff like telling us how much money is in his bank account and scrambling to have enough money to play 1 penny machines. I guess it's like the person who gets only C's and D's, and out of the blue suddenly gets an A plus, and you are surprised. A nearly failing person just made an A plus? Then goes right back into C's and D's. And then gets another A plus a while later and goes right back into Cs and Ds.

I had a vision and I feel a presence on the forum, someone from the past. I see possible red in their future.
I cant be sure but I think it rhymes with Maiden.

For your own personal psychic reading pleas call 1-900-PSYCHIC.
Roulette, keno and lottery numbers are free with any reading.

Quote: EvenBob

And none of them wringing my hands worrying
about what a mod is doing. Am I glad 1BB is gone?
You bet. This is one of the few threads I read and
I got sick to death of his whining, especially about
Babs. I tried blocking, but that means anybody
answering one of his posts is blocked too, so it's
not worth it. So buhby 1BB, adios and if I had
something to do with your ban, that's icing on
the cake for me.

Hey, you do what you do and he did what he did.
I'm not glad he is gone but I have said repeatedly
that he did himself in.

I guess you got a Thanksgiving present!

Quote: Dean

The thing with Kentry is how he can write like a normal, reasonable everyday adult, at times, like when he posted about how Casinos love to take advantage of drunk players, who will make irresponsible high bets in their intoxication, but most of the time, he is writing just plain weird stuff like telling us how much money is in his bank account and scrambling to have enough money to play 1 penny machines. I guess it's like the person who gets only C's and D's, and out of the blue suddenly gets an A plus, and you are surprised. A nearly failing person just made an A plus? Then goes right back into C's and D's. And then gets another A plus a while later and goes right back into Cs and Ds.

I did eventually admit I shouldn't have told everyone on this Forum how much money was in my account. That was my very first few days here when I said that, when I had no concept of WOV etiquette.

I know that some folks like clear-cut, defined rules. Heck, I consider myself a "rules guy," but I don't really have a problem with the Mods making rulings as they see fit, regardless of the actual letter of the law. I appreciate the job the Mods here do. I think they try to be fair and consistent. I also appreciate the fact that WoV is free, and provides a wealth of information. Behaving civilly should be the standard, and even more so when I am a guest.

Being here for a year and a half, I have noticed that each Mod has his/her own way of making rulings. What might be OK to one will be a ban-hammer summoning hot-button for another. Personally, I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing. I think DrawingDead said it best here:

Quote: DrawingDead

I prefer somewhat ambiguous rules, accompanied by the occasional random assassination of a few individuals without explanation. Really, I do.

A little tongue-in-cheek possibly, but it made me chuckle a little thinking of WoV being governed by this mantra. If this makes me think twice about making a post or hitting delete, that's probably a good thing.

I think the moderators do a fine job and I thank them for taking the time to answer questions.

I disagree with some of their decisions, but that is pretty normal. I was on another forum that allows no political comments at all and got a warning for saying this about the $600 W-2 thing:

"I disagree in principle with your statement: If we just sit around silent when we could say something, there is no way our word can be heard. This is a problem with US because we allow the government to run all over us and just don't say a lot. You can't change everything, but people on all sides of an issue should make themselves heard."

To me, that is a bit of over-moderation because I don't think that saying everyone should make themselves heard is political at all; had I said "The ____________ Party needs to say something", maybe it would have been.

My point is that we don't deal with over-moderation here. More decisions seem to be made by certain moderators at points when they are more active, but that is natural effect of them being here and moderating...not of something bad.

Quote: Joeman

I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing. I think DrawingDead said it best here:
A little tongue-in-cheek possibly, but it made me chuckle a little thinking of WoV being governed by this mantra. If this makes me think twice about making a post or hitting delete, that's probably a good thing.

I'm in favor of that as well.

It also helps keep people from skirting the rules and becoming toxic.The #1 rule should be whatever is best for the forum. If someone is being continuously disruptive I say F the rules and do what you got to do.

I'm certain someone said the rules are just a guide line. This is a free site, along with the odds site it has a lot to offer. Over all I think Mike and the Mods have actually been very fair over all.

Quote: RonC

.

Can someone show me how the site is over moderated? Please don't cherry pick. Weigh everything good, bad and indifferent.

Look how long they let some of the guys stay, members who's main purpose seemed to be only bash the site.

Certainly 1BB was out of line. I think Mission nuked him. I'm wondering if The Wizard himself would've let it go?

Had 1BB stayed I'm thinking he would NEVER let this stuff go.

Quote: EvenBob

This is one of the few threads I read...

LOL

Really?!

Curious, I checked "posts by EvenBob" and you post on a myriad of topics: hundreds of them, not just this one.

Yes, you seem to post more frequently on this particularl thread, but that could be because it never ends.

How can you square the volume of your posts on all the different threads you weigh in on with your above comment?

You don't bother to read most threads before posting your opinion on them?

Quote: AxelWolf

Can someone show me how the site is over moderated? Please don't cherry pick. Weigh everything good, bad and indifferent.

Look how long they let some of the guys stay, members who's main purpose seemed to be only bash the site.

Certainly 1BB was out of line. I think Mission nuked him. I'm wondering if The Wizard himself would've let it go?

Had 1BB stayed I'm thinking he would NEVER let this stuff go.

Just checking--did you think that is what I was saying? I did mention over-moderation, but not of it being an issue here...

Quote: AxelWolf

I had a vision and I feel a presence on the forum, someone from the past. I see possible red in their future.
I cant be sure but I think it rhymes with Maiden.

For your own personal psychic reading pleas call 1-900-PSYCHIC.
Roulette, keno and lottery numbers are free with any reading.

What?

Quote: AxelWolf

Kentry's tag line should be....

Why is everybody always picking on me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaGKxAgCguU

B79 fans will love the end.

I sea what you did there ;)

Quote: RonC

Just checking--did you think that is what I was saying? I did mention over-moderation, but not of it being an issue here...

I just thought I would toss that out there. No it wasn't directed at you. Someone, as in anyone who claims it's over-moderated and disagrees that it's not an issue.

Quote: MrV

LOL

Really?!

Curious, I checked "posts by EvenBob" and you post on a myriad of topics: hundreds of them, not just this one.

LOL

Yeah, really.

In the last 10 days I've posted in exactly 16
threads, not hundreds. That's fairly typical,
I read maybe 10% of the active threads and
block the rest. I have over 4000 blocked
threads, which I can prove with screenshots.

I post very little now, compared to 2-3 years
ago.

Quote: EvenBob

LOL

Yeah, really.

In the last 10 days I've posted in exactly 16
threads, not hundreds. That's fairly typical,
I read maybe 10% of the active threads and
block the rest. I have over 4000 blocked
threads, which I can prove with screenshots.

I post very little now, compared to 2-3 years
ago.

Having 4000 threads Blocked is like saying you pulled 4000 dead weeds from the garden.

I'm not sure what percentage of the threads remain active for long.

Quote: AxelWolf

Having 4000 threads Blocked is like saying you pulled 4000 dead weeds from the garden.
.

I block them so I can see at a glance
if any threads I post in are active. I
really spend very little actual time
here.

Quote: EvenBob

I block them so I can see at a glance
if any threads I post in are active. I
really spend very little actual time
here.

I am with your on that. I love the block feature. I read every thread. I make a decision if I can add anything or not. If I feel I have no possible contribution then it gets blocked. It makes it easier to look at recent topics.

To the Mods. Why is the suspension list not updated when a suspension is issued?

Probably just bait. Like anyone who asks might be 1BB since he was always concerned about it.

Quote: GWAE

I am with your on that. I love the block feature. I read every thread..

You're better than me, I read maybe one out
of 10. I have a very narrow interest corridor
on this forum. That's why it makes me laugh
when somebody says 'you post in every
thread'. Nothing could further from the
truth.

Quote: mason2386

To the Mods. Why is the suspension list not updated when a suspension is issued?

I don't think there's anything nefarious about it, though occasionally we need to discuss among ourselves what's appropriate when something's happened quickly. I think it's better if we only update it once per entry, rather than adjusting it if the first cut at it gets amended. But it's really bookkeeping, as people note in the threads when an action is necessary, and usually what that action is.

In this particular case, and many others, if the mod who did the suspension is on a smart device rather than a computer, it might wait until they get to a computer (I suspect w/Mission this is the case, and Face has mentioned this before too). It's really hard to edit that table on a device; in fact, it's not easy on a computer, with all the web codes and links we use. Much easier if you can control the paste/copy functions, but still picky, and easy to crash the table if you don't get it just right.

So anyway, Mission has a crazy schedule, so I went ahead and updated it.

Quote: EvenBob

You're better than me, I read maybe one out
of 10. I have a very narrow interest corridor
on this forum. That's why it makes me laugh
when somebody says 'you post in every
thread'. Nothing could further from the
truth.

Well, "I post in every thread" is further from the truth, so...

Quote: beachbumbabs

It's really hard to edit that table on a device; in fact, it's not easy on a computer, with all the web codes and links we use. Much easier if you can control the paste/copy functions, but still picky, and easy to crash the table if you don't get it just right.

If this site has an enhancements budget, that seems like something ripe for the fixing.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I don't think there's anything nefarious about it,

Aw shucks, I'm sorry to hear that.