Discussion about the Suspension List
It's a completely different thing to be virulently racist and proud of it.
Racist Uncle Mickey sure has great stories. But he's still racist Uncle Mickey, who put his vomit out there in our faces for all of us to share.
All I can say to him is thanks for revealing himself. I think the mods should have some behind the scenes discussion on this one. Personally, if I were to meet this person in real life, and been subject to that rant, it wouldn't matter to me what other great stories he had. You own it. You live with the fallout. Acceptance is complicit agreement.
Quote: EvenBobMickey got suspended? I thought there was some
kind of enabling program in place where he was
going to be fined for saying inappropriate stuff.
He did, that's $300 (I need some math guys to check my calculations) I just hope he pays up, or he may get a welshing suspension.Quote: mickeycrimmI'll agree to the $10 a day fine. Perhaps I could send the money to the Wiz and he can throw it into one of the gambling pools on WoV.
I don't even know exactly what it takes to be a racist. I'm not sure I have meet anyone who doesn't at minimum stereotype races.Quote: MoscaIt's one thing to be racist. Honestly, we should all admit to it, and work to eliminate it from our lives.
It's a completely different thing to be virulently racist and proud of it.
Racist Uncle Mickey sure has great stories. But he's still racist Uncle Mickey, who put his vomit out there in our faces for all of us to share.
All I can say to him is thanks for revealing himself. I think the mods should have some behind the scenes discussion on this one. Personally, if I were to meet this person in real life, and been subject to that rant, it wouldn't matter to me what other great stories he had. You own it. You live with the fallout. Acceptance is complicit agreement.
Quote: 1BBI can no longer, in good conscience, refer anyone to this site.
On some other boards (far less formally organized than this), when a moderator takes action, it is plainly visible for all. Typically, a tag like
(User was banned for this post)
is put at the end of the post, so that the results of moderation are plainly visible, and newcomers and the forgetful alike are reminded that the community has standards and this is unacceptable by those standards.
I know that the current general practice seems to be quoting the infraction, but that reply by a moderator does not always appear directly next to the infraction.
I would suggest adopting a practice like this, so it is plainly visible when a "contribution" is unacceptable by the community standards. I think it might help. It won't preclude people from having beliefs and opinions that others may disagree with, but it would show that the community does not accept egregious displays of that nature.
I am not sure if editing the post to include the tag, or adding a flag to the post so that it displays the tag, or some other method is the best implementation.
Quote: AxelWolfI don't even know exactly what it takes to be a racist. I'm not sure I have meet anyone who doesn't at minimum stereotype races.
I'm not sure either, but I think the best place to start is admitting things that I had no say in acquiring. The next step is to spend the rest of my life trying to change those things. As a human, I will be successful sometimes and unsuccessful others. But the humanity is in the trying. And sometimes in the failing.
Mickey is 61, I believe, and drinking as much as he does has serious consequences on his health. And drinking is what unleashes his lack of control. Losing participation in this forum is like closing one of the doors to his life. Eventually, when you close all the doors there is nothing left.
Quote: DieterOn some other boards (far less formally organized than this), when a moderator takes action, it is plainly visible for all. Typically, a tag like
(User was banned for this post)
is put at the end of the post, so that the results of moderation are plainly visible, and newcomers and the forgetful alike are reminded that the community has standards and this is unacceptable by those standards.
I know that the current general practice seems to be quoting the infraction, but that reply by a moderator does not always appear directly next to the infraction.
I think we do OK in pointing out what was wrong. Usually an issue is acted upon quite soon after posting, and an address is given in the same thread, just posts after the infraction. With the way this site is built, I refrain from editing others' posts as much as possible, as the "edit" button is juxtaposed to the "flag" button. For those in green, the flag button immediately busts the post and we can't get it back. Especially when working on a phone, it is very easy to whack a post unintentionally.
Quote: 1BBI can no longer, in good conscience, refer anyone to this site. I have referred hundreds over the last five years and even distributed printed material to friends and acquaintances. I would be mortified to recommend this site and have people see what is now on it's pages. I would never want to be associated with racism of any kind, let alone the vile, hateful, hurtful words that now appear here.
If you have an issue with the way that it was handled, that lies solely on my shoulders. I did not discuss this with anyone else, and couldn't even tell you how many or if any of the others have seen it.
If you, Mosca, or anyone else was harmed by my decision, I do sincerely apologize. Perhaps it is a matter of our different views on racism and things of that nature. Whereas some here may have actually grown up during periods of Jim Crow laws and the like, I experienced same by way of maybe one week of one year in history class. In my life experience, the period of affirmative action, the proliferation of militant political correctness, and other things in the name of "equality" have been more harmful, IMO, than racism itself. That doesn't mean I was right, it's just what I "know" based on what little life experience I have, in the time period I have lived.
Additionally, I have been subject to racism myself for pretty much my entire life. Whether it's a random neighbor or even my best friends and close family, I am frequently subjected to some sort of snide remark about the "white man" or the "red man". Hell, it's happened as recently as 6 days ago, by what is arguably my closest family member. Perhaps by way of being a half breed and receiving it from all sides all of the time, I have a skewed view, one which is different from yours or maybe anyone's.
You are right in that for most people, there would not have been a second chance, let alone a ninth. And I can't really explain why I have given it. Even for those who very much enjoy the tales of MC, I don't think any of them could justify his postings this time around. Perhaps I have erred. But be that as it may, it's a decision I made and I'll stand behind it. If anyone feels this was an error that must be rectified, there are 4 other Greens who all have the power to overrule me and change the decision who you may appeal to. And as always, I welcome any of them to change a decision I have made if my judgement was deemed as poor.
Quote: FaceQuote: DieterOn some other boards (far less formally organized than this), when a moderator takes action, it is plainly visible for all. Typically, a tag like
(User was banned for this post)
is put at the end of the post, so that the results of moderation are plainly visible, and newcomers and the forgetful alike are reminded that the community has standards and this is unacceptable by those standards.
I know that the current general practice seems to be quoting the infraction, but that reply by a moderator does not always appear directly next to the infraction.
I think we do OK in pointing out what was wrong. Usually an issue is acted upon quite soon after posting, and an address is given in the same thread, just posts after the infraction. With the way this site is built, I refrain from editing others' posts as much as possible, as the "edit" button is juxtaposed to the "flag" button. For those in green, the flag button immediately busts the post and we can't get it back. Especially when working on a phone, it is very easy to whack a post unintentionally.
If you have an issue with the way that it was handled, that lies solely on my shoulders. I did not discuss this with anyone else, and couldn't even tell you how many or if any of the others have seen it.
If you, Mosca, or anyone else was harmed by my decision, I do sincerely apologize. Perhaps it is a matter of our different views on racism and things of that nature. Whereas some here may have actually grown up during periods of Jim Crow laws and the like, I experienced same by way of maybe one week of one year in history class. In my life experience, the period of affirmative action, the proliferation of militant political correctness, and other things in the name of "equality" have been more harmful, IMO, than racism itself. That doesn't mean I was right, it's just what I "know" based on what little life experience I have, in the time period I have lived.
Additionally, I have been subject to racism myself for pretty much my entire life. Whether it's a random neighbor or even my best friends and close family, I am frequently subjected to some sort of snide remark about the "white man" or the "red man". Hell, it's happened as recently as 6 days ago, by what is arguably my closest family member. Perhaps by way of being a half breed and receiving it from all sides all of the time, I have a skewed view, one which is different from yours or maybe anyone's.
You are right in that for most people, there would not have been a second chance, let alone a ninth. And I can't really explain why I have given it. Even for those who very much enjoy the tales of MC, I don't think any of them could justify his postings this time around. Perhaps I have erred. But be that as it may, it's a decision I made and I'll stand behind it. If anyone feels this was an error that must be rectified, there are 4 other Greens who all have the power to overrule me and change the decision who you may appeal to. And as always, I welcome any of them to change a decision I have made if my judgement was deemed as poor.
I was off the board yesterday and missed the infractions, so had to track it down. Face, I think you made a very good decision and explained yourself very well. 30 days is the least that is appropriate, unfortunately, and it may yet escalate into more; I can support either decision as just. I appreciate the care you took in making your call.
Really well done, Face. It is obvious that making this decision was difficult and I commend you for having the capacity to make it in such a rational and mature manner.Quote:@Face.... Mickey, what can I say?
This is number 8. People have been nuked for less.
It, again, is profanity and insult related. Profanity in general is one thing. Insults of a certain nature are another. But this was the written equivalent of jumping on someone's chest with both feet. It was bad, man. I am at a loss for how to even react, because it is so far beyond anything I've dealt with here.
And it was unwarranted. I needn't explain further. I'm sure the light of day gives complete understanding.
But the thing that really, really bugs me is your self-censorship. You know not to drink and work. You know enough to censor certain words. I can only come to the conclusion that this is less about self control and more about willful self destruction.
I dig you, man. Your hard ass demeanor, the stories of your life, your knowledge of gaming, all of it is a welcome addition here that I personally enjoy. But it doesn't make up for the damage. Despite that you are a valued member, there are other valued members you harm by being exposed to your rants, and they deserve respect as well.
I truly believe your apologies upon your returns have been sincere, and that might be the one reason I've considered allowing you your ninth life.
Mickey, it is not my intention to talk down to you like a child. It makes me uncomfortable as hell to talk like this. But I need you to understand that we can't allow that stuff anymore, so I wrote this as a plea for understanding so you don't get trounced for good. You might be a bad ass but you're not an animal. You have self control. Exercise it, please.
30 days. Last chance.
Quote: tringlomaneJust caught up to reading this since my Vegas trip in mid-Feb.. Also just became a moderator on the other forum I post a ton on. They handle offenses completely different than here. Mostly through post deletion and giving private infractions. Not convinced it's better, but one plus of that method though is there isn't a 545-page thread discussing the "suspension list".
And as for recent news with this thread...looks decently clean, except for mickey. Ugh. Mickey is an awesome contributor when he is sober...but when he's not, who knows what will come out. :( If he was just an average poster, he would have probably been banned by now under the current rules. Now I myself have mostly desensitized myself to mickey's rants because I know the tone will significantly shift in those posts, but they are still inappropriate. But as another banned poster said numerous times, "Mike's house; Mike's rules." And Mike is still the major moderator of this forum, and also one of the strictest, imo. I definitely try to keep myself on good behavior here, even though I am currently nice and toasty. :)
This also was my 4400th post with 4 threads technically started...haha
2+2?
Quote: FaceI think we do OK in pointing out what was wrong. Usually an issue is acted upon quite soon after posting, and an address is given in the same thread, just posts after the infraction.
Sorry, I must have missed it. When I checked the suspension list, I didn't see a link to the particular post that caused the problem, and I didn't see a reply in the thread saying that a suspension had been levied. Come to think of it, I still don't.
My suggestion is made because people casually reading the site might get so incensed by the "bad" post that they don't scroll down to see the official reaction, much less search a barely related thread for it.
Perhaps it's worth some coding to facilitate this improvement. Perhaps not.
If he doesn't get nuked, how can anyone get nuked?
MC is the board's own Otis Campbell.
Thirty days in the drunk tank.
Apt.
Quote: Face
If you, Mosca, or anyone else was harmed by my decision, I do sincerely apologize. Perhaps it is a matter of our different views on racism and things of that nature. Whereas some here may have actually grown up during periods of Jim Crow laws and the like, I experienced same by way of maybe one week of one year in history class. In my life experience, the period of affirmative action, the proliferation of militant political correctness, and other things in the name of "equality" have been more harmful, IMO, than racism itself. That doesn't mean I was right, it's just what I "know" based on what little life experience I have, in the time period I have lived.
No, not harmed. If I wanted a say in the decision, I'd have thrown my hat in as a moderator. I measured my words very carefully there, suggesting that the mods discuss this privately. That is all I ask.
Regarding your experience with racism, I suggest a re-reading of what Crimm wrote. In fact, let's read it together. I bold-faced some of it for emphasis:
Quote:Have you ever been in a race riot, Bob? I have. I was in a tough ass race riot in 1973. And guess who I stood up for. I'm a whitie mo fo, bitch. Who's side do you think I was on? Did we get any help from you yankee, stinkin yankee boys in that riot? Hell, no! Not from you coward yankee punks. You a southern man and you watch a black piece of shit, along with his black piece of shit friends, run over every white man they can get away with. And it was all happening in the U.S. Army. I broke down bunks and took the bunk adaptors out. I loaded some of my socks with rocks. And I went out there and clubbed as many black (^(($$)&(^n mother %*(*%*(*() as I could find. I beat them black pieces of shit into the ground. It was just us Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana boys that had the guts to pull that shit on them. All you yankee ass piece of shit white boys stood on the sidelines and watched us operate. You are all cowrads until you die. I got thrown in the hole. They wanted to give me a Bad Conduct. Through my Army lawyer I got it reduced to a General. We were protecting your yankee punk asses more than we were prtotecing ourselves.
That's the reason I've never claimed to be a veteran. I was kicked out of the Army because of my participation in a race riot at Fort Riley, Kansas in 1973. I was on the white boys side. But, guess what. I'm a white boy.
I respectfully suggest that beating people with truncheons because of the color of their skin is more racist than snide remarks. And that political correctness has no influence on that interpretation of those words.
I'm surprised that the full court did not convene on this. That's what I thought was happening when the length of the suspension was left blank.
Quote: 1BBYou can't please everyone...
+1
Quote: MCrimalong with his black piece of shit friends, run over every white man they can get away with. And it was all happening in the U.S. Army.
Quote: Mosca
Regarding your experience with racism, I suggest a re-reading of what Crimm wrote. In fact, let's read it together. I bold-faced some of it for emphasis:
I respectfully suggest that beating people with truncheons because of the color of their skin is more racist than snide remarks. And that political correctness has no influence on that interpretation of those words.
I suppose that may have pointed out where we differ. I did not just see it as beating based on skin color, rather that the beating came because those of that skin color had been maiming others, I assume, with their car. Were I witness to same, I could understand having some hate for those people, and referring to them as Mickey did. I didn't see it as his claim that they were a POS because they were black, but a POS that happened to be black. To me, that makes a difference. It's much the same in my difficulties hearing my military friends referring to Middle Eastern folks with slurs. It sucks, and it's unnecessary. But if you had them try to kill you, you'd want to kill them back. And if you couldn't, you hold onto unquenched vengeance. Names are all you have left. It's not right. It's a failure of that person. But I get it.
It's not an excuse, just that I guess I can understand it. Having witnessed violence and been the recipient of violent acts, I can't admit innocence in not calling people what I've felt them to be, including derogatory comments about social status, culture, and race. Perhaps the only difference is I am able to compartmentalize and keep it to myself. I suppose, nay, I know, that if you were to get me comfortable enough and maybe lower my inhibition chemically, the right mood could cause me to relive some of those experiences and you would hear ideas and opinions of mine that are less than savory. Fortunately for all, including myself, I understand these emotions and are able to process them without the need of lashing out. I do the work and suffer that pain in an effort to be a better person. Some people are unable to maintain this.
Quote: 1BBFace, you did fine with this unenviable task. You can't please everyone and I guarantee that when this escalates. and he is nuked, there will be those pleading his case.
I'm surprised that the full court did not convene on this. That's what I thought was happening when the length of the suspension was left blank.
Thanks, but it wasn't totally bad. You do your best and stand behind it. You either do a good job or you learn a lesson. Both are good for the soul.
No court this time. I volunteered to Wiz to help lighten his load, so I only go to him sparingly, otherwise I'm not really lightening anything. And as you said, all decisions will be griped by one side or the other, and Mission and Babs have had their share of burdens to carry. I saw this, I started this, so it felt right to see it through. The time issue was just a personal thing. Too many more important fires to put it, and with knowing that this was going to be a longer suspension, I saw no need to rush it.
Quote: MoscaI respectfully suggest that beating people with truncheons because of the color of their skin is more racist than snide remarks. And that political correctness has no influence on that interpretation of those words.
I wouldn't go so far to dismiss the climate fostered by casual racism. It's what led to people thinking the actual crime was not as bad, because "hey, it was just a _____________." I'd say it also led to people not getting convicted of brutal crimes. And that result is pretty awful.
Quote: djatc2+2?
No way in hell I would moderate that zoo. You could spend all day reading certain 2+2 sections and just scratch their surface. I'm a moderator for Vegas Message Board now. WoV and VMB eat up enough time for me. I maybe check 2+2 ~weekly now.
Quote: tringlomaneNo way in hell I would moderate that zoo. You could spend all day reading certain 2+2 sections and just scratch their surface. I'm a moderator for Vegas Message Board now. WoV and VMB eat up enough time for me. I maybe check 2+2 ~weekly now.
I used to be on 2+2 a lot but now the only thread that I read is "my" video poker thread.
I do wonder if Mario38 has ever joined us here.
Quote: FaceI suppose that may have pointed out where we differ....
No problem. All I ask is that the mods consider discussing it. Once I've done that, I've done what I need to do.
Quote: MoscaNo problem. All I ask is that the mods consider discussing it. Once I've done that, I've done what I need to do.
Mosca,
FWIW, it's under discussion today. We'll let you know pretty soon, I think. Thanks.
Wasn't that long ago (til the sixties) blacks weren't welcome in Strip casinos.
MC called it the way he lived and experienced it "Back in the Day."
It wasn't pretty, but in his eyes that's just the way it was.
Apparently he hasn't changed, only "the times" have.
Should he be punished for being "genuine?"
What about "To thine own self be true?"
It's a slippery slope when you try to legislate morality.
Quote: WizardUpon further review, Mickey is no longer welcome on this site. Nuclear option.
I bet he saw that coming.
His drunken nights?
Quote: GWAEOdds MC makes a new name on one of the His drunken nights?
Quote: mickeycrimmThe Wiz is right. I must accept responsiblity for my own actions.
I choose to believe that Mickey will accept responsibility for his actions, and there will not be a duplicate account.
If he was that petty, why would he not have done so on one of his numerous previous suspensions?
Too bad the mods couldnt put a system to cut him off late afternoon then let post following morning
I'd see a mc post at nite and think, here it comes, off the rails, loose cannon, shots everywhere
Quote: MrVOooh, racism in Vegas: a delicate subject.
Wasn't that long ago (til the sixties) blacks weren't welcome in Strip casinos.
MC called it the way he lived and experienced it "Back in the Day."
It wasn't pretty, but in his eyes that's just the way it was.
Apparently he hasn't changed, only "the times" have.
Should he be punished for being "genuine?"
What about "To thine own self be true?"
It's a slippery slope when you try to legislate morality.
Meh. I'm okay with either decision really. If you kept it at 30 days, it's probably just delaying the current decision from happening. It's just unfortunate because I think his sober posts are really good for the forum unlike a lot of people nuked before him. He is definitely the most valuable poster to be nuked ever since I've been here.
Heck if he didn't drink, I'd probably trust him with baby sitting. Regardless of running his mouth -- stand-up guy is the impression I got.
But that was just my impression; don't know if it's right or wrong or not even close.
Quote: petroglyphHis name was Mickey Crimm.
Yeah, and besides his colorful stories I'll remember him for his amazing ability to post grammatically correct, properly spelled posts on this board while smashed out of his drunken mind.
Quote: rxwinemight of
Peeve.
Quote: indignant99Peeve.Quote: rxwinemight of
I'm with you on this one.
Quote: indignant99Peeve.
I'm lucky if I notice its or it's or other lost misplaced apostrophes.
Guess ya'll will suffer.
Quote: rxwineGuess ya'll will suffer.
No, you'll suffer. I would not hire you.
Quote: BeardgoatMickey had many chances. I will miss his stories, but I think the nuclear option was the best decision.
When it comes to the integrity and reputation of this site it was the only decision. A clear message had to be sent although I'm not sure this fits my definition of clear. This is already being talked about on other sites so the next thing to consider is damage control.
What to do. Let it go and hope it dies down or try to get ahead of it? Deleting everything doesn't seem practical and may backfire by raising more questions. Redaction may work. Leave everything in place but put heavy black lines through all offensive words, sentences etc. Post an announcement before the first post with a short explanation of why this is not tolerated.
Anyone missing the unique style of Mr. Crimm can certainly find him on other forums. Find one that he hasn't been banned from, pour yourself a double Black Velvet and enjoy.
Quote: 1BBWhen it comes to the integrity and reputation of this site it was the only decision. A clear message had to be sent although I'm not sure this fits my definition of clear. This is already being talked about on other sites so the next thing to consider is damage control.
What to do. Let it go and hope it dies down or try to get ahead of it? Deleting everything doesn't seem practical and may backfire by raising more questions. Redaction may work. Leave everything in place but put heavy black lines through all offensive words, sentences etc. Post an announcement before the first post with a short explanation of why this is not tolerated.
Anyone missing the unique style of Mr. Crimm can certainly find him on other forums. Find one that he hasn't been banned from, pour yourself a double Black Velvet and enjoy.
Leave it. It is what it is.
Quote: petroglyphHis name was Mickey Crimm.
Many demons, one enemy.
Each must learn to let others stand on their own two feet, to in turn learn what that means for him/herself. As much as won't find many very old persons who are stupid, fat, wimpy, or drunk, must ponder also the eternal.
Mike did you a favor. You still have time, mc. (The meter's about to turn over.)
Quote: indignant99No, you'll suffer. I would not hire you.
I hope that is really not true. I know a lot of great employees who may need a little help with writing and usage. There a lot of smart worthless people out there who write much better than they work...
Quote: RonCI hope that is really not true. I know a lot of great employees who may need a little help with writing and usage. There a lot of smart worthless people out there who write much better than they work...
I worked with a guy who started in the cleanup department. He was obviously someone special, and he wanted to do better, and we promoted him to sales. His grammar, spelling, and handwriting were awful at first, but gradually got better. Eventually he got promoted to management. He and I were sitting around talking about how far we'd made it to that point, and he mentioned that he knew when he started in sales that if he didn't clean up his written words, others would see him as less than he was.
That might or might not have been the case for him, but if people think perception is important, then it probably is.
Quote: MoscaI worked with a guy who started in the cleanup department. He was obviously someone special, and he wanted to do better, and we promoted him to sales. His grammar, spelling, and handwriting were awful at first, but gradually got better. Eventually he got promoted to management. He and I were sitting around talking about how far we'd made it to that point, and he mentioned that he knew when he started in sales that if he didn't clean up his written words, others would see him as less than he was.
That might or might not have been the case for him, but if people think perception is important, then it probably is.
Part of being a good leader or mentor is helping people who are promising along the way.
People that are so stuck on the grammar patrol that they disqualify someone simply based on some improper usage are largely missing the point. It is the whole person you are hiring and everyone has flaws. The idea is to get the best person and make them better through leadership and mentoring.
