Moderation in Moderation

Quote: MDawg

Well, maybe over time it'll be unhidden. I don't think it needs to return with a bang. Maybe just a whimper. 🧐 😄

link to original post

Enough whimpering about it for now.

Quote: MDawg

In the spirit of moderation in moderating why not unhide any hidden threads.

If anyone is going to go to the trouble and kindness to post content including pictures for others it is rather insulting to hide his content.

link to original post

MDawg, I will try to defend anyone who I feel is being insulted, however, that is where I draw the line. If there is going to be any debating pertaining to where the Systems Page belongs I will vote that it belongs right behind the Religion Page.

Maybe you should look again. There was a thread about Celebrity Sightings that was hidden. A couple of trip report threads, including mine, were hidden. And I've never discussed any betting system except to state that I don't use one.

This site needs to call b.s. loudly and openly when it comes to betting systems and nonsense claims (any system not based on information is fraudulent and those who push non-information based systems are either scammers, liars or delusional). I continue to get personal emails like the one I've partially quoted below.

"I really lost lot of money in casino and online casino I need your valuable mentorship in baccarat even it's chargeable also ok for me please guide me best strategy with your experience I will be very thankful for you my situation is getting worse day by day please kindly help me with your knowledge"

It is a tragedy people think this way.

Quote: teliot

This site needs to call b.s. loudly and openly when it comes to betting systems and nonsense claims (any system not based on information is fraudulent and those who push non-information based systems are either scammers, liars or delusional). I continue to get personal emails like the one I've partially quoted below.

"I really lost lot of money in casino and online casino I need your valuable mentorship in baccarat even it's chargeable also ok for me please guide me best strategy with your experience I will be very thankful for you my situation is getting worse day by day please kindly help me with your knowledge"

It is a tragedy people think this way.

link to original post

Even though we are/were on the oposing team regarding AP, we have the same views when it comes to what you said.

Elaborate stories regarding gambling voodoo and always winning is harmful. We have various members who have been inspired by this type of stuff who take up their own pursuit in hopes of beating the casino with no actual advantage.

Quote: MDawg

And I've never discussed any betting system except to state that I don't use one.

link to original post

Periodically stating that you do not use a betting system does not matter in the least, it is all about projection. Whether you realize it or not you come across as a systems player that some of the membership could very easily misinterpret. Subsequently, if you do not believe in systems you could gain much more tolerance with the non-believers if you could make it into a sort of public service announcement at the end of your posts instead of what you now have which states:

"I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people."

Impression wise the above quote at the end of each post that you now give suggests a careless attitude without concern for others.

______________


unless he shares the reasons and/or methods behind his spectacular claims of success - and that is an extreme longshot - his thread doesn't belong on the "front page"
I would estimate that something like 99% of the members here don't believe his claims

IMO - and I acknowledge that I have no leadership role here - but still - this forum is a place to exchange potentially valuable and useful info

it's not useful as a place for secrets or mysteries to be the basis of winning claims - and for those claims never to be clearly and fully explained

and I would like to commend the Mod(s) for their decision to hide his thread in "betting systems"
it was a great decision

it's not at all "censorship" as been wrongly claimed - and I think the vast majority here would agree



I think it's helpful at this point to review some of the claims he's made - for example this one from November of 2019:

Quote: MDawg

returned to play about two years ago. Haven’t had any losing trips since my return

and this one from his stock trading thread - March of 2020 - and this is a guy who I believe trades almost every day, of if not, anyway, he trades a great deal - here we go:

Quote: MDawg

I haven't booked a losing trade in something like two years.

.

Quote: lilredrooster

______________


unless he shares the reasons and/or methods behind his spectacular claims of success - and that is an extreme longshot - his thread doesn't belong on the "front page"
I would estimate that something like 99% of the members here don't believe his claims

IMO - and I acknowledge that I have no leadership role here - but still - this forum is a place to exchange potentially valuable and useful info

it's not useful as a place for secrets or mysteries to be the basis of winning claims - and for those claims never to be clearly and fully explained

and I would like to commend the Mod(s) for their decision to hide his thread in "betting systems"
it was a great decision

it's not at all "censorship" as been wrongly claimed - and I think the vast majority here would agree



I think it's helpful at this point to review some of the claims he's made - for example this one from November of 2019:







and this one from his stock trading thread - March of 2020 - and this is a guy who I believe trades almost every day, of if not, anyway, he trades a great deal - here we go:







.

link to original post

"and I would like to commend the Mod(s) for their decision to hide his thread in "betting systems"
it was a great decision"

It very well may have been the Mod(s) decision to hide his thread, but leading the fight for them getting to that decision was led by KewlJ who does deserve credit for getting that accomplished. He and I do agree on a few things despite that we are currently not seeing eye to eye on other matters.

Quote: teliot

This site needs to call b.s. loudly and openly when it comes to betting systems and nonsense claims (any system not based on information is fraudulent and those who push non-information based systems are either scammers, liars or delusional). I continue to get personal emails like the one I've partially quoted below.

"I really lost lot of money in casino and online casino I need your valuable mentorship in baccarat even it's chargeable also ok for me please guide me best strategy with your experience I will be very thankful for you my situation is getting worse day by day please kindly help me with your knowledge"

It is a tragedy people think this way.

link to original post

My mentorship:

"Don't play Baccarat."

Free of charge.

Quote: BoSox

Quote: lilredrooster

______________


unless he shares the reasons and/or methods behind his spectacular claims of success - and that is an extreme longshot - his thread doesn't belong on the "front page"
I would estimate that something like 99% of the members here don't believe his claims

IMO - and I acknowledge that I have no leadership role here - but still - this forum is a place to exchange potentially valuable and useful info

it's not useful as a place for secrets or mysteries to be the basis of winning claims - and for those claims never to be clearly and fully explained

and I would like to commend the Mod(s) for their decision to hide his thread in "betting systems"
it was a great decision

it's not at all "censorship" as been wrongly claimed - and I think the vast majority here would agree



I think it's helpful at this point to review some of the claims he's made - for example this one from November of 2019:







and this one from his stock trading thread - March of 2020 - and this is a guy who I believe trades almost every day, of if not, anyway, he trades a great deal - here we go:







.

link to original post

"and I would like to commend the Mod(s) for their decision to hide his thread in "betting systems"
it was a great decision"

It very well may have been the Mod(s) decision to hide his thread, but leading the fight for them getting to that decision was led by KewlJ who does deserve credit for getting that accomplished. He and I do agree on a few things despite that we are currently not seeing eye to eye on other matters.

link to original post

After receiving a little correct enlightenment "reminder" from another AP I believe KJ and I are on the wrong side of the issue. Where unfortunate but true, the more hens that get slaughtered the better for the AP. Survival of the fittest.

Every one of my session reports includes the option for anyone to throw down a red flag and challenge its results,

I'm willing to present a side Challenge. If anyone doubts that any one, just any one of the Session reports I present during this trip is not entirely accurate, throw down a red flag! Put up a mere ten grand in cash, let's work out how to verify the Session to your satisfaction using the Wizard as the judge, and winner takes the twenty thousand.

I'll contribute five hundred from my end for the Wizard's time if the Challenger will do the same, so that's a net $19,000. to the winner of this side Challenge.

This Side Challenge remains good for the duration of this particular Vegas trip.

and as far as my stock trades, I had proposed a quarter million dollar challenge to AxelWolf on that one too.

And then finally, someone did pony up $2000. with the stipulation that $1000. of it would be paid to me only if I won during the observed session. I didn't pansy around and minimum or flat bet or Martingale (as the Wizard had proposed that he would have done in my situation), I played the way I always do. And won.

And of course there have been WIN statements posted, winning checks viewed, and much more.

In other words, if anyone wishes to vet met, the option is there, and I was vetted once already and paid for my time. Flatly, taken more seriously than anyone I may think of at WOV, in terms of being paid to prove himself.

What's interesting is that the few members who occasionally complain about MDawg's trip reports didn't have much to say about the above, with the exception of AxelWolf who actually congratulated me after the observed session, and of course DarkOz commented that "MDawg is for real!"

Quote: MDawg

I'm willing to present a side Challenge. If anyone doubts that any one, just any one of the Session reports I present during this trip is not entirely accurate, throw down a red flag! Put up a mere ten grand in cash, let's work out how to verify the Session to your satisfaction using the Wizard as the judge, and winner takes the twenty thousand.

I'll contribute five hundred from my end for the Wizard's time if the Challenger will do the same, so that's a net $19,000. to the winner of this side Challenge.

This Side Challenge remains good for the duration of this particular Vegas trip.

link to original post

"Put up or shut up" isn't the scientific assessment of a style of play that some of our esteemed members may be hoping for.

In any case, this thread is being derailed from what I thought it was about - a critique and discussion of forum moderation.

Point being that as far as GAMING related content at WOV, we have here either:

1. Trip or session reports
or
2. Theoretical discussions of ways to play the games.

At least (1) is simple relation of facts. And there is no requirement that trip reports get into exactly why the casino patron did what he did.

And as far as (2) it has been limited to openly known moves - people get alll bent out of shape when anyone divulges any not commonly, publicly known secrets. Which makes it contradictory to claim or demand that anyone reporting (1) must divulge all.

Quote: MDawg

In other words, if anyone wishes to vet met, the option is there, and I was vetted once already and paid for my time. Flatly, taken more seriously than anyone I may think of at WOV, in terms of being paid to prove himself.

What's interesting is that the few members who occasionally complain about MDawg's trip reports didn't have much to say about the above, with the exception of AxelWolf who actually congratulated me after the observed session, and of course DarkOz commented that "MDawg is for real!"

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(Quote clipped, relevance)

It's an interesting take that you were taken more seriously than anyone. I think that the reason that Bob Dancer (and others) haven't been offered money to, "Prove themselves," is because they are taken more seriously than you are in terms of having a repeatable winning strategy with the expectation of profit. That being said, I give you all the credit in the world for being willing to back it up to the extent of what the challenge and agreed upon terms called for.

I reiterate that the result wasn't ideal for your detractors.

That being said, it's irresponsible for a forum that advertises for online gambling to have these claims of almost constant winning front and center at all times, unless someone is willing to spell out exactly what the +EV mechanism is by which this winning is being done, if any. The, "Tracking," of Baccarat shoes and, "Riding of Streaks," or whatever you want to call it, I would hope we can agree is not enough to provide a mathematical advantage and, in fact, does almost nothing in that regard. I say, "Almost nothing," because Baccarat can be counted, in theory, but not to any great effect. Additionally, you play earlier in shoes that any count would conceivably call for.

With that, if these winning claims are 100% factual, then it becomes highly probable---and that's assuming every claim is 100% accurate in the first place---that there's some mechanism by which you have a mathematical advantage. You won't spell out what that is, as is your right and for obvious reasons if such an advantage exists.

However, I agree with Moderation that we can't have claims of just endless winning front and center on, "Recent Threads," all the time as it might cause readers to believe that your method---whatever it may be---is repeatable, easily discoverable and comes with an expectation of profit. Perhaps they decide to sign up for an online casino and try this out on, "Live Baccarat," based exclusively on what you have been repping. Whether or not you care about such a thing is up to you, but I could understand why the site would not want to potentially be seen as responsible if someone does that and loses a lot of money.

So, if the site were concerned only with views, clicks and any monies gained by signing up for online casinos, then putting your thread front and center would make the most sense. However, I tend to think that (Loss Rebate mention aside) the site doesn't want to promote that Baccarat can be easily beaten apropos of nothing that would actually change the mathematical expectation of the game.

Also, people with lesser bankrolls and less money that they can actually afford to potentially lose might pursue these not even clearly specified methods based on your postings.

In short, it's not necessarily hidden because your specific claims are doubted.

Quote: Mission146

In short, it's not necessarily hidden because your specific claims are doubted.

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Agreed. Some would like to think so, but I think it was really just more because some others made the thread a bit disruptive during my month long absence. And if that disruption could be shown as a thing of the past, I'd think no reason to not unhide it.

Quote: MDawg

Quote: Mission146

In short, it's not necessarily hidden because your specific claims are doubted.

link to original post

Agreed. Some would like to think so, but I think it was really just more because some others made the thread a bit disruptive during my month long absence. And if that disruption could be shown as a thing of the past, I'd think no reason to not unhide it.

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I have already said the reasons that it would be hidden, which are entirely my opinion only. None of my stated reasons have anything to do with the thread being disruptive. It has to do with the site not wanting to promote just constant winning at Baccarat without some mathematically identifiable (+EV) reason for it. Simply, even if your claims are 100% true, the site doesn't want every reader to potentially get the impression that any of this is repeatable.

I think even you would agree that what you claim to be doing is only possible because of having a large bankroll.

Well but that would get into that every trip report where the reporter doesn't get into why he won, should be hidden?

Or that every trip report where the guy won should be hidden?

P.S. I reported a losing session just a few days ago.

And I would say that this discussion is right on topic with the topic of Moderation, because that is exactly what is being discussed...Moderation at WOV. Plus the very first post is about me! I stayed out of it actually for a few days, and not until page 5 of this thread.

Quote: MDawg

Well but that would get into that every trip report where the reporter doesn't get into why he won, should be hidden?

Or that every trip report where the guy won should be hidden?

And I would say that this discussion is right on topic with the topic of Moderation, because that is exactly what is being discussed...Moderation at WOV.

link to original post

Come on. Every trip report isn't batting well over 97% over 100-some sessions or whatever it is. Total false equivalence.

Just caught the Edit, didn't see that. Don't follow the thread anymore, would you be kind enough to link that post?

Here it is. Losing recent session. There were others posted elsewhere during my WOV suspension.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/122/#post822062

Quote: MDawg

Well but that would get into that every trip report where the reporter doesn't get into why he won, should be hidden?

Or that every trip report where the guy won should be hidden?

P.S. I reported a losing session just a few days ago.

And I would say that this discussion is right on topic with the topic of Moderation, because that is exactly what is being discussed...Moderation at WOV.

link to original post

You seem to be presenting significantly more trip reports than the typical trip reporter; you're posting in a week what the average joe might post in a year.

It's simply a bigger target.

Well, that's because we have become Vegas residents. But I actually am not playing anywhere near every day lately.

Quote: MDawg

Here it is. Losing recent session. There were others posted elsewhere during my WOV suspension.

interesting - this is what he posts now - after his win % has been called incredible by many

but once again, worth repeating - this is what he posted in Nov. of 2019:

Quote: MDawg

returned to play about two years ago. Haven’t had any losing trips since my return

and once again, about his stock market trades in March of 2020:

Quote: MDawg

I haven't booked a losing trade in something like two years.

how many people in the world would you guess trade stocks constantly and haven't had a losing trade in 2 years?



I have now posted this twice for emphasis
I won't post it any more


.

Wise decision. Twice is more than enough. But none are so blind as those who will not see.

“Declare your jihad on thirteen enemies you cannot see -egoism, arrogance, conceit, selfishness, greed, lust, intolerance, anger, lying, cheating, gossiping and slandering. If you can master and destroy them, then you will be read to fight the enemy you can see.”
― Al-Ghazzali

As long as he said it twice, I'll say it twice. I was willing to put up $250,000. against AxelWolf's picking any 10 posted stock trades of mine for verification however he saw fit. You want some of that action? The reason I said 10 versus all of them is that verifying 10 would be easy, verifying every single one unwieldy. But every single one I posted could be verified.

From what I recall AxelWolf's issue with the proposed wager was not so much that the trades were not genuine, but he was concerned that the trades were not mine? lol


I say that this is not a math site. I say that this is a gambling site,

Quote: Mission146

I have no idea where the disconnect is (in terms of popular opinion) when it comes to this issue.

WoV is not a 100% math or AP site...it's a gambling forum. When people come here and make posts, it's not like the posts are going on WoO.

If there was ever a precedent for disallowing claims as being unrealistic during my time as an Administrator (not speaking of anyone specifically), then I was never made aware of such a precedent and certainly didn't act on it. What usually happens is that someone just comes along, sooner or later, and demonstrates why one particular system or another doesn't mathematically work.

link to original post

and hence there should be nothing wrong with allowing anyone's Trip Reports to be posted openly without Moderation intervention (to hide them).

Anyway if some of you are so concerned about peoples' losing in casinos why don't you post all of your "AP secrets" and teach everyone how to win.

Quote: MDawg

As long as he said it twice, I'll say it twice. I was willing to put up $250,000. against AxelWolf's picking any 10 posted stock trades of mine for verification however he saw fit. You want some of that action? The reason I said 10 versus all of them is that verifying 10 would be easy, verifying every single one unwieldy. But every single one I posted could be verified.

From what I recall AxelWolf's issue with the proposed wager was not so much that the trades were not genuine, but he was concerned that the trades were not mine? lol


I say that this is not a math site. I say that this is a gambling site,

Quote: Mission146

I have no idea where the disconnect is (in terms of popular opinion) when it comes to this issue.

WoV is not a 100% math or AP site...it's a gambling forum. When people come here and make posts, it's not like the posts are going on WoO.

If there was ever a precedent for disallowing claims as being unrealistic during my time as an Administrator (not speaking of anyone specifically), then I was never made aware of such a precedent and certainly didn't act on it. What usually happens is that someone just comes along, sooner or later, and demonstrates why one particular system or another doesn't mathematically work.

link to original post

and hence there should be nothing wrong with allowing anyone's Trip Reports to be posted openly without Moderation intervention (to hide them).

Anyway if some of you are so concerned about peoples' losing in casinos why don't you post all of your "AP secrets" and teach everyone how to win.

link to original post

Why should AP's post, ALL when you won't post your one? If we can't demand to know your method, then you certainly can't demand to know anyone else's.

Besides, I've posted more than zero +EV plays/methods.

I am a new member so perhaps I have no say in this conversation, regardless I will put in my two cents.

Why people don't post all of their "secrets" on here is for a variety of reasons, just as a hypothetical example, let us say someone found an AP play that can beat CSM machines in blackjack, let us say this someone posts his method in detail to help people, I am sure there are casino people that browse these kinds of forums looking for this stuff and if they saw a post in detail about how someone is beating a CSM machine, I am sure something would be done about it, and then the entire post is irrelevant...what one month after it is posted?, especially if this particular member posts a lot about what casinos they go to and games they play, one if they are dedicated enough could theoretically connect the dots and they end up accidently doxing themselves if they are not careful.

However, to keep this response on topic in the thread, this particular site is based off WOO, a site that is more dedicated to helping regular layman at least lose less in gambling, so I would say that the potential discussion of at least helping people form their own AP plays, or sharing little snippets is more of a reason to join this site more than any other gambling site. Sure, this site is not 100% AP discussion, but its association with WOO certainly makes this more of a valid place for this kind of discussion than any other gambling forum site.

EDIT: And to clarify I am not really an AP player, I break-even at most theoretically.

Yes, exactly, Mission - no one should be required to post his secrets, but at the same time, a Trip Report that doesn't reveal anything other than the results should not be hidden (for the reason of not having revealed secrets).

But when that person posts almost daily trip reports that almost exclusively ends in a win without revealing how they should not be believed.
It goes against everything the WoO and WoV websites exist for.

Well, you could always take up the Challenge presented at the end of each session report...unless, you don't really disbelieve. You're just saying that you do.

It really wouldn't be that hard to verify the numbers on at least any recently reported session.

Quote: joedol

But when that person posts almost daily trip reports that almost exclusively ends in a win without revealing how they should not be believed.
It goes against everything the WoO and WoV websites exist for.

link to original post

Maybe so, but that doesn't give WOV the right to call that person a troll, when WOV do not know what's going on at the table.

Quote: MDawg

a Trip Report that doesn't reveal anything other than the results should not be hidden (for the reason of not having revealed secrets).

link to original post

I only speak from my own view and nobody else's, but I don't think the problem is posting trip reports with only winning results or whatever, but when people ask you "hey, what's your secret?" and you say "I am just following the shoe and streaks", a less-informed gambler may come upon the thread on the front page if it was unhidden and draw conclusions that are not based in sound theory. Now of course this is no fault of your own, as you said and I agree posting secrets shouldn't be a requirement and a layman thinking they can just follow a pattern in a game based on a gal's trip report sadly has something coming to them. The question becomes though what do we want this site to be about right? If we allow everyone to just post their betting systems where they have won, I don't know, 1000 recent sessions that is not based on math or sound theory, aren't we just like any other gambling forum then? As for where to draw that line, I do not know myself, in my opinion even saying "yes I do have an advantage play, but I do not want to tell anyone" is better than nothing, but I understand such a statement would draw criticism, I am not really qualified on this front to know where to separate this line at.

Quote: MDawg

Yes, exactly, Mission - no one should be required to post his secrets, but at the same time, a Trip Report that doesn't reveal anything other than the results should not be hidden (for the reason of not having revealed secrets).

link to original post

True, but at the same time, Trip Reports become just reported numbers---results---which anyone can post.

It's not so much that your reports are any great concern, but it opens the door for others to come in with just endless reports of alleged winning such that they dominate the Forum and Moderation having no potential answer for that. It's obviously going to be a bad look for the forum if all of the threads are systems this, methods that, betting streaks the other and everyone just claiming to be winning almost endlessly.

As a result, preventive action has to be taken---and, perhaps a bit in advance---when it looks like that sort of thing may be starting to become a trend.

Anyway, let me ask you a question: Why is the thread not being hidden so important to you? You have one verified session win and whatever else constituted part of the agreed-upon terms of the, "Challenge." You claim that you're up...what...has to be over a half million or million, for the year, playing Baccarat. Isn't the money enough? I don't really understand why the thread appearing in Recent Threads should be of any great concern when you have a metric ton of money. To be playing at these stakes, you'd report your worth as what...multiple millions? Over ten million? I don't know. Just seems like a really unusual thing to care about.

I'll tell you where I'd be if I had several million dollars. Actually, I can't say where I'd be, but I know where I wouldn't be---and that's here.

Okay now, I was suspended for putting words in Mission146's mouth imprecisely.

Yes, I have mentioned following the shoe and streaks anecdotally, but I have never said what it is I do or do not do in the casino to win.


As far as why I don't like my content hidden, I already said why.

Quote: MDawg

If anyone is going to go to the trouble and kindness to post content including pictures for others it is rather insulting to hide his content.

link to original post

Quote: MDawg

Okay now, I was suspended for putting words in Mission146's mouth imprecisely.

Yes, I have mentioned following the shoe and streaks anecdotally, but I have never said what it is I do or do not do in the casino to win.


As far as why I don't like my content hidden, I already said why.

Quote: MDawg

If anyone is going to go to the trouble and kindness to post content including pictures for others it is rather insulting to hide his content.

link to original post

link to original post

Okay, so he said part of what you said and now you have clarified. Besides, I don't think he meant that as a literal quote.

Quote: joedol

But when that person posts almost daily trip reports that almost exclusively ends in a win without revealing how they should not be believed.
It goes against everything the WoO and WoV websites exist for.

link to original post

It's pretty simple. Just don't believe him. No one says you have to believe anything anyone posts here.
I've mentioned there was a guy in my Queens neighborhood that claimed he was Teddy Roosevelt and walked around in khaki shorts and a pith helmet. No one ever called him out or called him a liar. We recognized him for what he was and let him be. "Teddy" lived in a world of his own making, and it wouldn't surprise me if a whole cast of true believers lived in his head, as well.

Quote: MDawg

Well, you could always take up the Challenge presented at the end of each session report...unless, you don't really disbelieve. You're just saying that you do.

It really wouldn't be that hard to verify the numbers on at least any recently reported session.

link to original post

I have no idea what the challenge is. Haven't read the thread in a long time and I don't intend to.
And yes, I really disbelieve you. I think most people here do too.

As to the content part, I guess it's a question as to whether or not you're so insulted that it makes you want to not participate anymore. It seems like you stop short of throwing down that gauntlet and I don't claim to know what the response would be if you did.

I actually feel a little bad for the way the whole thing went down. After all, your detractors probably drew as much attention (and kept your thread at the top) as much as you did.

Of course, you also have your supporters to thank for the current state of affairs. Why? Well, next thing you know here is a thread for MarcusClark's Trip Reports that are going to be however frequent...oh, here's another for Wellbush.

Naturally, you see where this can get out of control. While I am sure that yourself, Wellbush and MarcusClark would one and all engage in faithful reporting without ever the slightest hint of exaggeration or hyperbole in any regard, how can we be so sure about others? Your bet offer doesn't cover it because it's your offer, so others who would come and make similar claims of nearly continuous winning could not have it demanded of them that they make a similar bet, could they?

Anyway, while I trust the reporting of you three, it clearly opens the door for other people to create accounts, come in and do the same thing. We're in no position to demand proof, so if we don't avail ourselves of the ability to hide threads, then what you end up with is a Top Ten List of threads that are nothing but claims of endless winning that would seemingly be on the far right of the bell curve...or if not on the right of the bell curve...using tactics that the posters are unwilling to disclose and can not be compelled to disclose within the rules.

You really can't have a gambling forum that consists of nothing but that.

Quote: lilredrooster

interesting - this is what he posts now - after his win % has been called incredible by many

but once again, worth repeating - this is what he posted in Nov. of 2019:

Quote: MDawg

returned to play about two years ago. Haven’t had any losing trips since my return[/q}




and once again, about his stock market trades in March of 2020:





how many people in the world would you guess trade stocks constantly and haven't had a losing trade in 2 years?



I have now posted this twice for emphasis
I won't post it any more
.

link to original post

Claiming you haven't had any losing trips to Las Vegas in two years is NOT the same as posting that you have not had any losing sessions. How many trips and of what duration? What are critics assuming is the meaning of "losing trip," because MDawg gets comp-ed in many ways and could be rolling that into his win/loss definition.

And posting about Mdawg's old post concerning a string of stock trades during a multiyear period of record stock market gains is
(a) completely irrelevant
(b) off-topic, unless you are implying that moderators are supposed to be evaluating claims of stock market success, which I certainly hope you are not
(c) IMO, contains insufficient information for anybody on this forum to claim that it must be false. Why is it so hard to believe that every stock he has recently sold was a profitable transaction because the stock market has been rising? Does anyone know how many trades we're talking about, here? I suspect not. So, why am I supposed to respect people who make these kind of trash accusations against other members without having any specific knowledge of what is being claimed?

I have never paid much attention to the MDawg debate before I became a moderator (because I literally just don't care whether MDawg is winning or not), and the evidence you are trotting out is not sufficient to convict anybody of anything. Why is anything that MDawg says on a hidden thread so important to anyone that people want to spend their precious hours of life campaigning to have him nuked? What kind of life values do you guys have? I think this debate amounts to an online feud between people who don't like each other for various reasons. It is tiresome, and I have little sympathy for people who endlessly repeat their animus towards MDawg
Maybe someone should explain to me why people who flood the forum for a long period of time with posts advocating that another member should be nuked aren't themselves guilty of trolling? Because I see very assymetric definitions of trolling being used by some of our prominent forum members.

If you have something new to say, then fine, say it. Otherwise, please find something else to talk about.

Quote: Mission146

You claim that you're up...what...has to be over a half million or million, for the year, playing Baccarat. 𝐈𝐬𝐧'𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐦𝐨𝐧𝐞𝐲 𝐞𝐧𝐨𝐮𝐠𝐡? I don't really understand why the thread appearing in Recent Threads should be of any great concern when you have a metric ton of money. To be playing at these stakes, you'd report your worth as what...multiple millions? Over ten million? I don't know. 𝗝𝘂𝘀𝘁 𝘀𝗲𝗲𝗺𝘀 𝗹𝗶𝗸𝗲 𝗮 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗹𝗹𝘆 𝘂𝗻𝘂𝘀𝘂𝗮𝗹 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗼 𝗰𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝗮𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁.

I'll tell you where I'd be if I had several million dollars. Actually, I can't say where I'd be, but I know where I wouldn't be---and that's here.

I believe his big dream is of great fame - and the thread being hidden hinders his scheme to bring national recognition to himself
I believe he sees himself on the level or even a higher level as a gambler than James Grosjean or Tommy Hyland or Billy Walters or even Bill Benter

fame is a drug some can't resist - money isn't enough
actually, if all of his accounts are true - fame would be within his reach
but a great deal of documentation exists on the methods of those named above
that would have to provided by him or else fame will not be an achievable goal


.

More power to anyone who wants to be truly famous. I can't think of many things that would be worse.

I agree with Mission. But for anyone who does want to be famous, may I recommend YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram.

I think it is bizarre that anyone would impute the motives of other members based on an assumption that the Wizard of Vegas site is the route to becoming "truly Famous." That lacks a sense of proportion.

Quote: gordonm888

But for anyone who does want to be famous, may I recommend YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram.

I think it is bizarre that anyone would impute the motives of other members based on an assumption that the Wizard of Vegas site is the route to becoming "truly Famous."

you're missing a very important point
gambling is a field where there is a great deal of suspicion (as well there should be) about the claims of gamblers
no gambler is going to become truly or believably famous by claiming huge wins on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook or Instagram

the WOV site is very different than those sites
it has respectability, believability, re gambling, thanks to the Wizard himself and others such as Mission

by establishing himself here he can overcome the negativity that any gambler would get by making claims on those sites

this place by itself cannot deliver fame. but it can be the first step towards greatness if claims such as these become accepted here


.


.

Quote: lilredrooster

you're missing a very important point
gambling is a field where there is a great deal of suspicion (as well there should be) about the claims of gamblers
no gambler is going to become truly or believably famous by claiming huge wins on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook or Instagram

the WOV site is very different than those sites
it has respectability, believability, re gambling, thanks to the Wizard himself and others such as Mission

by establishing himself here he can overcome the negativity that any gambler would get by making claims on those sites


.

link to original post

It's got nothing to do with me, but thank you! Wizard built these sites and I'm just tagging along and writing what I can to keep it going, hopefully without compromising the quality too much!

Although, there is quite a market on Youtube just to watch high-limit play, win or lose. That actually might be just the venue for high-limit Baccarat play. The channel previously known as SlotLady got a ton of views on a Baccarat live stream, which was low stakes compared to some of MDawg's bets. Baccarat's also a very popular casino game, so I bet a, "Baccarat with MDawg," Youtube channel could be huge.

I'm pretty sure that it was the Baccarat video where I tallied up Slotlady's chat donations, on direct and just those overcame the expected loss.

................

Mission:

you might be right and I might be wrong but I don't know the names of any gambler from YT, or those other sites
the great gamblers I know about I learned about from elsewhere

of course, the world is changing and I could be mistaken -
but if I believed somebody's claim to be a great gambler from YouTube vids I would in my saner moments be shocked that I could believe something like that

if somebody convinced me here, I would believe it and support spreading that person's name and methods


.

I don’t think the goal for them is to be seen as great gamblers, just to garner views and the revenues that come from views and other revenue drivers for Youtubers, such as donations and merchandise.

Quote: MDawg

As long as he said it twice, I'll say it twice. I was willing to put up $250,000. against AxelWolf's picking any 10 posted stock trades of mine for verification however he saw fit. You want some of that action? The reason I said 10 versus all of them is that verifying 10 would be easy, verifying every single one unwieldy. But every single one I posted could be verified.

From what I recall AxelWolf's issue with the proposed wager was not so much that the trades were not genuine, but he was concerned that the trades were not mine? lol


I say that this is not a math site. I say that this is a gambling site,

Quote: Mission146

I have no idea where the disconnect is (in terms of popular opinion) when it comes to this issue.

WoV is not a 100% math or AP site...it's a gambling forum. When people come here and make posts, it's not like the posts are going on WoO.

If there was ever a precedent for disallowing claims as being unrealistic during my time as an Administrator (not speaking of anyone specifically), then I was never made aware of such a precedent and certainly didn't act on it. What usually happens is that someone just comes along, sooner or later, and demonstrates why one particular system or another doesn't mathematically work.

link to original post

and hence there should be nothing wrong with allowing anyone's Trip Reports to be posted openly without Moderation intervention (to hide them).

Anyway if some of you are so concerned about peoples' losing in casinos why don't you post all of your "AP secrets" and teach everyone how to win.

link to original post

And my response is in quotes. Also, when pressed on an issue regarding proof of account ownership you made a comment that said something about you were only proving its a legitimate account.

"I'm not going to put too much time effort or thought into this. For there ever to be any wager between me and you where I have to go out of my way trusting that you will follow through, show up, or actually pay me. You would first have to prove that you have the ability to pay. You've already been given the opportunity you put money up with no risk and ask for it back without any consequences to prove that you have the ability to pay off any challenges Wagers are bets. I did so myself, and you were supposed to as well. You Somehow talked to Mike out of having to do it based on there not being a meeting of the minds, however, I think he was confused as there didn't need to be a meeting of the minds for that particular situation, as you were able to get back your money for any reason. It was simply just to prove you had the ability to pay had we went further.

This sounds like another BIG BET BLUFF!!!!
But, let's for a moment just assume "you" actually did show up with a cashier's check, I would never trust an unknown person's cashier's check since they can easily be faked.

I'm not dumb enough to make a 250k bet like THIS, even if I'm absolutely confident I'm right. Even a millionaire would be willing to let you take over his stock account or whatever shenanigans would be needed to fake something like this just to win 250K. Since you have no personal history with anyone here, no one has ever met you, no one knows your real name.... it would be far too easy for someone, anyone, to step up in your place and claim to be you in order to win a 250k bet. There would be absolutely no way to know it's actually you, the person sitting behind the computer typing under your handle. For all I know, you handle a rich family member or friend's account. You have been trying to get people to put up 50k at the Wynn for some odd reason, that sounds very odd and suspicious to me. BIG RED FLAGS are going off in my head. I'm not saying you are trying to con me, but, I'm thinking there are so many ways I could be conned while participating in a bet like this.

And all that bootlicking stuff you're talking about is so very uncouth, it's very off-putting to me knowing that someone would even suggest something like that. I really have to ask myself, what kind of person actually has that kind of stuff rattling around in their head."

I brought that up today, only because lilredrooster brought up my past stock trades, twice. The essence of the proposed wager was that all trades I posted at WOV were legitimate. You went off on the bizarre tangent of maybe the stock account belongs to someone else. It doesn't, it belongs to me, but what does that have to do with every single trade booked in my account as posted here being legitimate?

Which actually, I think I posted one or two trades over the past year or two that were not winners, maybe not here, but at another forum.

I calmly restate that this is not the thread for put up or shut up challenges.

MDawg, from a marketing perspective everyone and I mean everyone loves you. Wall Street loves you. Both sides of the table in casinos love you. You are good for business, you give customers hope and optimism. AP's should love you as well as other people that are like you. I love people like you, I do not want to read what you have to say in any thread that you make but recognize that you bring people in the door a very necessary requirement for everyone involved.

Although, you cannot be oblivious to the fact that by you giving people hope and dreams that all but a very tiny percentage of them will survive. Essentially most everyone will get slaughtered and you seem to only have that Gordon Gekko idealism, while I'm sure that you also sleep well at night. Carry on I suppose.