billryan
billryan 
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 178
  • Posts: 10275
April 4th, 2021 at 9:24:50 PM permalink
I got banned here after my first post because Mike seemed to think I was a sock puppet posting from the Mid-West. A week or so later, he sort of apologized and reinstated me.
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
  • Threads: 20
  • Posts: 926
April 4th, 2021 at 11:10:09 PM permalink
Trying to tie the source IP address of a communication with who is sending that communication is so last century. VPNs aside, if I post from my cell phone the IP address might be what my ISP provides for my home. Or the cell tower nearest me as I travel. Or the address provided by the WiFi of the coffee shop Im visiting. Effectively eliminating (or at least reducing) the use of sock puppets is a matter best handled by the policies and procedures used for new account registration.

Edit. And, by the way, browser fingerprinting as a means of tracking identity might work now, but the big dogs continue to reduce the ability to use that.
Last edited by: BleedingChipsSlowly on Apr 4, 2021
You dont bring a bone saw to a negotiation. - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
100xOdds
100xOdds
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
  • Threads: 525
  • Posts: 3100
April 5th, 2021 at 4:23:02 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

So we all know that certain members are using sockpuppets which is supposed to be not allowed here. They are getting away with it because VPN are apparently allowed here. No other forum allows VPN to hide IP addresses. Despite whatever rules you post allowing VPN is encouraging sockpuppets.

Sockpuppets are a big part of these guys and their phony claims. When absolutely no one else believes them anymore, they create new friends and supporters via sockpuppet. Rob Singer for example was the KING of sockpuppets. And there are others right now.

I am asking Wizard to reconsider the policy of allowing VPN's in the name of transparency, fairness and truth.

how about just banning vpn's when creating accts?
allow vpn's after the acct is created?
or allow vpn's after 10 posts?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
OnceDear
Administrator
OnceDear
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
  • Threads: 45
  • Posts: 4959
Thanks for this post from:
speedycrapFTB
April 5th, 2021 at 4:24:39 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

So we all know that certain members are using sockpuppets which is supposed to be not allowed here. They are getting away with it because VPN are apparently allowed here.


KewlJ. Already, I feel that you are side-stepping the spirit of your recent agreement with Wizard. Timing and context tell me that you are again going after you know who. We don't need any more threads about him! This is my first and final warning to you on that!
Quote:

No other forum allows VPN to hide IP addresses. Despite whatever rules you post allowing VPN is encouraging sockpuppets


Detecting Socks and detecting VPN's is not an exact science. Sometimes we can absolutely identify them. Sometimes we can't. We have had some quite successful socks that did not use vpns and there are perfectly legitimate reasons to use vpns to connect. E.g. I cannot connect to here from certain sites without using my vpn. Also, one might reasonably want to remain anonymous! Both from the visited site and from the internet connection site.

I'll tell you what does encourage sock-puppets: Blabbing about how they might succeed in going undetected.

Quote: kewlj

If not banning them, most forums require a user to unmask for a couple posts so the admins can know if it is a sockpuppet. Almost anyway you slice it, using sockpuppets is about deceit and misrepresenting the truth and the tool for using them VPN's should not be allowed.



Kewl... THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT HERE for anyone to prove who he/she IS OR IS NOT. No demand for face to face interview. No demand to see ID and No demand for unmasking of IP. No need for ANY Personal Identifying Information. NONE!
What other forums permit or demand is up to them.

Here. Users are not obliged to prove that they are not sock-puppets by revealing anything about themselves. Not even real IP address or real location. Sure. It makes life easier for ne'er do wells. Get over it!
Take care out there. Spare a thought for the newly poor who were happy in their world just a few days ago, but whose whole way of life just collapsed..
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
  • Threads: 125
  • Posts: 13201
April 5th, 2021 at 5:24:50 AM permalink
Not to mention all the conspiracy theories about why the site would want an unmasked IP if the site did require it.
Vultures can't be choosers.
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
  • Threads: 211
  • Posts: 4270
April 5th, 2021 at 8:23:56 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

KewlJ. Already, I feel that you are side-stepping the spirit of your recent agreement with Wizard. Timing and context tell me that you are again going after you know who. We don't need any more threads about him! This is my first and final warning to you on that!

Detecting Socks and detecting VPN's is not an exact science. Sometimes we can absolutely identify them. Sometimes we can't. We have had some quite successful socks that did not use vpns and there are perfectly legitimate reasons to use vpns to connect. E.g. I cannot connect to here from certain sites without using my vpn. Also, one might reasonably want to remain anonymous! Both from the visited site and from the internet connection site.

I'll tell you what does encourage sock-puppets: Blabbing about how they might succeed in going undetected.

Kewl... THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT HERE for anyone to prove who he/she IS OR IS NOT. No demand for face to face interview. No demand to see ID and No demand for unmasking of IP. No need for ANY Personal Identifying Information. NONE!
What other forums permit or demand is up to them.

Here. Users are not obliged to prove that they are not sock-puppets by revealing anything about themselves. Not even real IP address or real location. Sure. It makes life easier for ne'er do wells. Get over it!



This is more than about any one member. There have been other situations in the past and WILL be more and more after that. It is about doing everything possible to stop it. It is about credibility. And I am not talking about any one present day person. There is a kind of self-policing that occurs and rightfully so. What I mean by that is a person (past, current and future) come on and makes claims that are extremely unlikely, winning by ways that the math dose not support. membership gets to express their doubts and opinions.

And when it gets pretty lopsided, let me go back to the case of Rob Singer and there is no one left that believes the claims...the person has essentially been discredited. Then all of the sudden, "new" members pop up supporting the claims and methodology, giving the claimant new life and new credibility. That is not right. It is not fair. I didn't know the policy in the past, now that I do, I can see how that allows these situations to continue and will continue into the future. I think this loophole should be closed. If it had been closed with Singer and a few others, we wouldn't be talking about it now or with future situation.

I'll address privacy in following, so as not to run on too long.
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
  • Threads: 211
  • Posts: 4270
April 5th, 2021 at 8:35:33 AM permalink
PRIVACY: I don't see this as a privacy issue. There is no one more concerned about privacy than I. I actually take a lot of heat from fellow AP's because I am not comfortable with meetup's and hanging out as a group of the local AP's are. So this isn't about privacy. It is about deception and misleading. If a member has a back story with unusual claims of success in Vegas, and his IP address reveals he lives in Idaho, or east Bubble-you-know what, or Canada, or Europe, I think management should be able to reveal that. That is not a violation of privacy.

We all give up a little privacy when we participate on a forum. You trust the owner/management to not reveal your name and who you are. During my "hiatus" from here, I was on another forum, Gambling Forums for a while, with a group that included known APs, and members from even here. After about a year it was revealed that the owner was doing some things that make him not trust-worthy of that information and there was a mass exodus. No one feels that way here. No one not trusts Wizard. If he should find out my name or age, or description, I have no doubt he would protect that. But calling out someone posting thousands of miles away from their back story and claims, and calling out sockpuppets designed ONLY to give false credibility to an otherwise discredited claim and member, is not a violation of privacy.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 102
  • Posts: 3605
April 5th, 2021 at 9:49:50 AM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I am not on many forums, but is banning VPNs a common rule? To my knowledge I have never heard of that.

The vast majority of people who use VPNs are for privacy reasons.



Frequently VPNs are not allowed.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 102
  • Posts: 3605
April 5th, 2021 at 9:58:09 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Sorry KJ you are wrong about this. There is no reliable way to block users from using a VPN.



Kewlj is simply saying members should not post thru VPNs.

There's nothing wrong with the suggestion.

If two or more members posted from the same IP address it can indicate a sock puppet or multiple member IDs.

Use a VPN if you like, but not when you post on a forum that doesn't allow socks or multiple identities.
speedycrap
speedycrap
Joined: Oct 13, 2013
  • Threads: 44
  • Posts: 1208
April 5th, 2021 at 10:00:58 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Quote: OnceDear

KewlJ. Already, I feel that you are side-stepping the spirit of your recent agreement with Wizard. Timing and context tell me that you are again going after you know who. We don't need any more threads about him! This is my first and final warning to you on that!

Detecting Socks and detecting VPN's is not an exact science. Sometimes we can absolutely identify them. Sometimes we can't. We have had some quite successful socks that did not use vpns and there are perfectly legitimate reasons to use vpns to connect. E.g. I cannot connect to here from certain sites without using my vpn. Also, one might reasonably want to remain anonymous! Both from the visited site and from the internet connection site.

I'll tell you what does encourage sock-puppets: Blabbing about how they might succeed in going undetected.

Kewl... THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT HERE for anyone to prove who he/she IS OR IS NOT. No demand for face to face interview. No demand to see ID and No demand for unmasking of IP. No need for ANY Personal Identifying Information. NONE!
What other forums permit or demand is up to them.

Here. Users are not obliged to prove that they are not sock-puppets by revealing anything about themselves. Not even real IP address or real location. Sure. It makes life easier for ne'er do wells. Get over it!



This is more than about any one member. There have been other situations in the past and WILL be more and more after that. It is about doing everything possible to stop it. It is about credibility. And I am not talking about any one present day person. There is a kind of self-policing that occurs and rightfully so. What I mean by that is a person (past, current and future) come on and makes claims that are extremely unlikely, winning by ways that the math dose not support. membership gets to express their doubts and opinions.

And when it gets pretty lopsided, let me go back to the case of Rob Singer and there is no one left that believes the claims...the person has essentially been discredited. Then all of the sudden, "new" members pop up supporting the claims and methodology, giving the claimant new life and new credibility. That is not right. It is not fair. I didn't know the policy in the past, now that I do, I can see how that allows these situations to continue and will continue into the future. I think this loophole should be closed. If it had been closed with Singer and a few others, we wouldn't be talking about it now or with future situation.

I'll address privacy in following, so as not to run on too long.

Kewlj, you are one member I envy. You love what you do, you are good at it and you are successful.
But one thing I would like to share with you. When someone says something "unbelievable" or "unreal", it does not mean it is really "unbelievable" or "unreal". Why I say that? My own life experience. I have experienced something that only "happen" in a movie set. "They are so unreal and cannot happen" But it did happen right in front of me and and I was right in the middle of it. The only advice is: Use your judgement. Also, it comes with the old saying. When something is too good to be true, it probably is.

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