Discussion II about the Suspension List
DarkOz said too much, but he has the right.
climbing some mountain? Or in
a unicycle race?
This shows they know abuse is going on with these cards. At the same time, the level of concern is fairly low, or the decision has been made that they can't do more, like make you present a picture ID, without chasing away customers.
Quote: gordonm888I think it was the best and most informative WOV thread I can remember. The Wizard himself participated in it as did Mission. I have no idea what kind of chat forum BBB wants to have (and frankly I don't care). I think she is totally out of sync with the forum on this decision.
The fact that I participate in something shouldn’t be construed to give it any additional credence, I’m not an Admin.
My opinion is that there are some parties who have a problem with just how, “Informative,” it is, but I could be wrong. There are certainly reasons to clean up a few posts that I think are perfectly legitimate, like deleting the pictures of the alleged perpetrator, but I think that anything that even comes close to Doxxing can be taken care of without deleting the entire thread.
Quote: odiousgambitI was in a PA casino about a year ago and I plunked my player's card down with my buy-in as usual. When the card was returned to me, someone came around behind me where I couldn't see him and called out my name. It was crystal clear to me that he was testing to see if I had the same name as on the card that way. I imagine someone not prepared for that test often fails. Since I responded normally he was happy.
This shows they know abuse is going on with these cards. At the same time, the level of concern is fairly low, or the decision has been made that they can't do more, like make you present a picture ID, without chasing away customers.
In my local Casinos, they make Gamblers show ID along with the Player's Card Club when called for drawings.
Quote: CrystalMathMy guess is there’s a fleet of ships worried about sinking.
DarkOz said too much, but he has the right.
That’s pretty much where I stand on it. He went into some details on certain tactics, and maybe threw some specific (mind-boggling to the reader not already in the know and certainly bigger than anything I do) numbers out there that most people would not, but absent breaking some other rule I can’t see the problem.
I mean, I can see the problem, but the alternative is to have a Forum that decides what aspects of gambling a person can and cannot discuss.
It seems pretty obvious that names or identifying details should not be revealed. One can discuss a murder without it being a how-to manual. One can discuss suicide without encouraging it.Quote: Mission146I mean, I can see the problem, but the alternative is to have a Forum that decides what aspects of gambling a person can and cannot discuss.
Seminole casinos require a drivers license scan to issue or update your card and will not accept non-card players in any game in any amount of money. Monopoly you know.
One can discuss a disguise without giving details of it.
Trying to pick up a digital dealer in a casino can be fun and posting about your adventures might be entertaining, but we don't need to hear your pick-up lines or the very explicit language the other players directed at you.
giving details about a scam or semi-scam is not appropriate.
Quote: Mission146The fact that I participate in something shouldn’t be construed to give it any additional credence, I’m not an Admin.
But you have been an Admin, and you have the sensibilities and training of a moderator. And your comment in the thread was that you rated the writing in the thread an 8.5/10.
Wizard was in the thread, and in one of his polls on another subject last week he included a reference to "An AP Nightmare" which reflected his awareness and high regard of the thread. He made playful remarks in the AP Nightmare thread about establishing a betting line on the outcome of the story that DarkOz was telling.
This is a case of one hyper-active moderator acting in a way that will eventually destroy the WOV forum. She was absent for about a week then came crashing down like the God of Thunder and did a mass suspension of valued forum members and shut down and hid a thread that was being widely heralded as the best WOV thread in a generation. She asks us for patience but displayed no patience or restraint of her own -she did not contact Wizard behind the scenes to discuss the issue. The reality is that her moderation style is no longer an asset to this forum, because she behaves like the Queen of Hearts in Alice Through the Looking Glass. "Off with Our Heads!" is her typical response to anything that irritates her. And, seemingly, her threshold for being irritated becomes progressively lower with time.
This is not the type of issue that anyone wants to confront: the loss of confidence in a moderator. Instead, people will simply remove themselves from the the situation. People will drift away from the forum. It is happening now. Oh, well - I don't want to confront it either. Last person out, turn off the lights.
Not only is this member spamming with that short post, also using the private message function to send that short message
:-(
I responded with "English Please"
Quote: terapinedNew member kesline2041
Not only is this member spamming with that short post, also using the private message function to send that short message
:-(
I responded with "English Please"
I got the same PM
Quote: gamerfreakI got the same PM
Damn, I thought she liked me. JK
Quote: gordonm888But you have been an Admin, and you have the sensibilities and training of a moderator. And your comment in the thread was that you rated the writing in the thread an 8.5/10.
Not much in the way of training, but I had years of Forum Administration under my belt before I started doing it here.
Quote:Wizard was in the thread, and in one of his polls on another subject last week he included a reference to "An AP Nightmare" which reflected his awareness and high regard of the thread. He made playful remarks in the AP Nightmare thread about establishing a betting line on the outcome of the story that DarkOz was telling.
Exactly, that's kind of what led to my opinion that, at least to that point, he didn't see anything that he had a problem with. Maybe there's some stuff after that. Again, I saw a few spots here and there where I would have requested DarkOz make some edits (the pictures) and likely would have done it myself had he refused.
Anyway, true story or not, it is a very good thread in my opinion. As far as Suspensions getting tossed out for Personal Insults all from the same thread, uh, Hot Blonde Challenge anyone?
As far as the content and some other stuff revealed, I can see where people would have a problem and I certainly wouldn't have posted 97% of what DarkOz posted. In fact, in spite of my articles, you'd be surprised how little AP-related stuff I discuss publicly. However, given that it is related to gambling, I fail to see how he doesn't have the right to post it if he wants to.
Quote:This is a case of one hyper-active moderator acting in a way that will eventually destroy the WOV forum. She was absent for about a week then came crashing down like the God of Thunder and did a mass suspension of valued forum members and shut down and hid a thread that was being widely heralded as the best WOV thread in a generation. She asks us for patience but displayed no patience or restraint of her own -she did not contact Wizard behind the scenes to discuss the issue. The reality is that her moderation style is no longer an asset to this forum, because she behaves like the Queen of Hearts in Alice Through the Looking Glass. "Off with Our Heads!" is her typical response to anything that irritates her. And, seemingly, her threshold for being irritated becomes progressively lower with time.
I don't know about all of that. Babs has her opinion, I have mine (which really doesn't matter in this case), and Wizard will have his opinion, which we will come to find out tomorrow.
As far as the three (2) day Suspensions, those were all for statements that, in my view, could have reasonably been considered personal insults. Axelwolf's post even alluded to the fact that he thought a Suspension would be coming, "Take one for the team."
How would anybody know if she contacted the Wizard behind the scenes? I certainly have no idea whether she did or not. If I had to assume, then I would assume she did.
As far as BBB's Moderation is concerned, I think that BBB is an excellent Moderator overall and has done the job without compensation (at least none that I am aware of) for several years. In fact, I can think of perhaps only a handful of decisions in which I have disagreed with her. Granted, I haven't paid as much attention (read: none whatsoever to about 80-90% of threads) since I stopped being an Admin, so I can't necessarily speak to the last several months as well. I also go some periods of time without reading any threads, exception to my NFL Picks Game thread.
Quote:This is not the type of issue that anyone wants to confront: the loss of confidence in a moderator. Instead, people will simply remove themselves from the the situation. People will drift away from the forum. It is happening now. Oh, well - I don't want to confront it either. Last person out, turn off the lights.
I haven't lost any confidence. It's a decision that I disagree with, that's all.
I see darkoz is now red.
what happened with the darkoz sega?
last I read, there were 5 people who knew of his safes...
what else did he reveal in his thread?
Quote: odiousgambitI was in a PA casino about a year ago and I plunked my player's card down with my buy-in as usual. When the card was returned to me, someone came around behind me where I couldn't see him and called out my first name.
I got caught twice using my wife's card.
She would have free play coming and
give it to me to play for her when she
wasn't going to the casino that week.
The first time I was caught I weaseled
out of it by saying oops. The 2nd time
they confiscated the card. In some
casinos they do pay attention.
Why Axel?
I must have missed their offenses.
Quote: SOOPOOWhy darkoz?
Why Axel?
I must have missed their offenses.
I saw Axel's post
It was a somewhat of an insult regarding an AP being dumb and Axel acknowledged in the post he was gonna take one for the team
Not sure about Dark
****************
So, if the daughter's new ex comes back and proves he is not guilty, maybe you could make a case for libel...but you can also consider that darkoz would continue the story with how it was proven and whether or not he figured out who actually did it.
Libel--a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation
It is hard to smear the name of a robber who is running from the law...harder still without a name being mentioned.
If the thread goes away, it goes away. I don't think I would have written it, but the OP did write it.
Quote: 100xOdds
what happened with the darkoz sega?
last I read, there were 5 people who knew of his safes...
5 that he knew of. Of course one of them
went and told a convicted thief about it
and you can guess the rest. If you tell 5
people a secret you've really told 50, and
counting.
Quote: Mission146
I’ll tell you this, nobody is going to be reading the Forum if we never talk about anything. That’s especially true when it comes to AP considering we kind of earned a reputation as, “The AP Forum.”
God forbid should a thread that guides members toward having an legit edge on beating the casino be posted.
But 335 pages of lottery number predictions is allowed to flourish.
That’s the biggest way this forum has deteriorated over the years. It only “helps” gamblers by showing them how to lose less in a casino , not by actually allowing any AP secrets to be posted
Precisely, but don't expect even a dedicated moderator to have developed an instant Quicksand Detection' skill. Sometimes as threads develop the quagmire reveals itself. it was a dangerous topic and many complained of the manner of its presentation.Quote: Mission146
As far as BBB's Moderation is concerned, I think that BBB is an excellent Moderator overall and has done the job without compensation (at least none that I am aware of) for several years.
Quote: Zcore13
You've stupidly posted your information on a public forum where for sure casino executives visit and I'm sure there's a chance law enforcement visits. You've admitted to things that probably violate Title 31 regulations. You are obviously not as smart as you think you are. ZCore13
Quote: Axelwolf
I would just like to say, anyone talking about multiple carding is an idiot, and a cappy AP.
I'll take one for "the team"
Quote: darkoz
When Evenbob is even a laughingstock for Nathan you know he cant be taken seriously
(BeachBumBabs
Anybody want to make a case for any other suspensions in this thread? Going, going...
Quote: gordonm888the thread can be found on An AP Nightmare
How are you doing this, linking to
a hidden thread. Are you a wizard?
Let’s just wait and see what Wizard decides when he takes a look at the thread. I imagine there’s a chance that the thread will be unhidden at that point, but we’ll see.
As for BBBs decision to put the thread on hold until she gets guidance, that's completely fair and making us wait a couple of days to figure out whether a thread that contains questionable information to BBB should remain is fair.
I don't think revealing the play is the issue. It's clearly the accusation against someone of committing a crime without being proven that crosses the boundary. Still, the identity has not been named. If darkoz posted his real name or some obvious identification of people in his life I think it might be libellous. The only people who know the true identity of the people are people that already know darkoz.
I think about what would have happened if he had posted on Facebook where clearly everyone knew who he was. Even still it would be darkoz who would be charged with libel, not Facebook. This is because Facebook is a platform, not a publisher and is protected by the first amendment, which is why it cannot be prosecuted for publishing "fake news". WoV is the same, at least under US law, I believe. If WoV is owned on the EU however it is subject to different laws.
If BBB is doing anything it's protecting darkoz from himself. I don't see anything else here. If anything darkoz should change wording to protect himself, like "allegedly". But given that the thread is out there there is a good chance that screenshots have already been taken if someone was to accuse him off anything.
A slap in the face of the admins who hid the thread
Quote: gordonm888But you have been an Admin, and you have the sensibilities and training of a moderator. And your comment in the thread was that you rated the writing in the thread an 8.5/10.
Wizard was in the thread, and in one of his polls on another subject last week he included a reference to "An AP Nightmare" which reflected his awareness and high regard of the thread. He made playful remarks in the AP Nightmare thread about establishing a betting line on the outcome of the story that DarkOz was telling.
This is a case of one hyper-active moderator acting in a way that will eventually destroy the WOV forum. She was absent for about a week then came crashing down like the God of Thunder and did a mass suspension of valued forum members and shut down and hid a thread that was being widely heralded as the best WOV thread in a generation. She asks us for patience but displayed no patience or restraint of her own -she did not contact Wizard behind the scenes to discuss the issue. The reality is that her moderation style is no longer an asset to this forum, because she behaves like the Queen of Hearts in Alice Through the Looking Glass. "Off with Our Heads!" is her typical response to anything that irritates her. And, seemingly, her threshold for being irritated becomes progressively lower with time.
This is not the type of issue that anyone wants to confront: the loss of confidence in a moderator. Instead, people will simply remove themselves from the the situation. People will drift away from the forum. It is happening now. Oh, well - I don't want to confront it either. Last person out, turn off the lights.
A few comments, jumping off from here.
I have been here, reading, every day. I chose not to comment in that thread, but i probably have posts every day of this week. Kind of overwrought of you not to check before you go all Red Queen on me, doncha think? Rubber and glue? Pot and kettle? Wizard is the one finishing up a virtual absence, including the last several days of that thread, but he will be looking at it today if he has time, tomorrow if not.
The possibly libelous and doxxing stuff started creeping in mid-week. I cautioned in the thread, redacted a couple things, got pushback and rudeness. That's part of what Mike will be looking at. And yes, we've corresponded at length. He's the one who told me to close and hide it pending his return tomorrow, though I had already closed it until I could talk to him.
We've discussed several options, along with OD. I listed most of them a couple pages ago. We'll be working through it as a team, I expect.
As to the suspensions, the insults all occurred in the last 1/2 dozen pages, the last day or so of posts. I quoted the insults, all of which called someone stupid or idiot in one way or another. I don't know how anyone can suggest they didn't qualify as suspension-worthy or that they were inconsistent with past forum practice.
Gordon in particular: That was pretty offensive, your going all ham on me. Not for the first time. You really need to chill out.
And thanks to those who came to my defense after this post.
Quote: boymimbo
I don't think revealing the play is the issue. It's clearly the accusation against someone of committing a crime without being proven that crosses the boundary. Still, the identity has not been named. If darkoz posted his real name or some obvious identification of people in his life I think it might be libellous. The only people who know the true identity of the people are people that already know darkoz.
My issue with that standard is that anything said about another person could be libelous under that definition.
I would be all for taking down the thread if an Administrator somehow KNOWS that it’s librlous, because there could be some question whether or not the site should allow something it knows to be libelous to remain.
Apparently, DarkOz’ real name is discoverable, but even if I cared to determine that (I don’t, though I do think I know his first name already) I still wouldn’t know his daughter’s name. She wouldn’t even necessarily have the same last name as him. Much less would I know the name of her fiancé who, I presume, is not a blood relative of either of them.
Anyway, for anything to even be libelous, it must be provably false. Unless I missed something, I fail to see how anyone not directly related to the situation would know anything about DarkOz’ account to be false.
As far as revealing a play not being an issue, I would suggest you reread the excerpt (quoted above) that got AxelWolf suspended. I have a feeling that AxelWolf is not concerned about potential libel, though I could be wrong. To be clear, I also fully understand AxelWolf’s position and consider him a good friend...he and I kind of butt heads on this issue from time to time.
Quote:I think about what would have happened if he had posted on Facebook where clearly everyone knew who he was. Even still it would be darkoz who would be charged with libel, not Facebook. This is because Facebook is a platform, not a publisher and is protected by the first amendment, which is why it cannot be prosecuted for publishing "fake news". WoV is the same, at least under US law, I believe. If WoV is owned on the EU however it is subject to different laws.
Exactly, but again, if something is KNOWN to be libelous, then I think a reasonable argument could be made for removing that. I don’t see how that’s the case here unless someone either knows that the story itself is untrue, or that the story is true, but the fiancé didn’t do it.
Quote:If BBB is doing anything it's protecting darkoz from himself. I don't see anything else here. If anything darkoz should change wording to protect himself, like "allegedly". But given that the thread is out there there is a good chance that screenshots have already been taken if someone was to accuse him off anything.
I’m just not in love with the idea of scrubbing an entire thread that is clearly gambling-related that a person posted of his own free will and volition absent a rock solid reason to do so.
Quote: NathanI really don't think Dark Oz's AP thread deserves to be deleted. It is one of the best threads so far and had so many posters engaged and enthralled with it. It has potential to be Thread Of The Year. Just was started this year and already got 46 pages before being closed. That's a huge successful thread and it certainly doesn't deserve to be hidden. There was no names involved in the story except for Dark Oz's name and even the picture of the Robber was literally scribbled on so that you can only see his cap and his skin color. Not offensive at all.
I think we all know the D Day thread is the GOAT of these forums.
If it is not the subject of the thread that gets it banned but the conduct of the posters within it, then can't anyone get any thread they want deleted just by breaking rules within the thread?
Quote: ZenKinGI think we all know the D Day thread is the GOAT of these forums.
I’m partial to “Lock of the Century Part 2”, but that’s just me.
Quote: randompersonA hypothetical question.
If it is not the subject of the thread that gets it banned but the conduct of the posters within it, then can't anyone get any thread they want deleted just by breaking rules within the thread?
Hypothetical or not, you bring up a valid point. You know how I often say stuff like,"A guy on another gambling website said that he was followed and mugged after winning $50,000 in cash in Borgata. oh my God," but it didn't personally happen to me? Thus is not one of those times. What I am about to say happened to me personally, first hand. On another website, I had serious on topic threads closed because some idiots decided to start cussing each other out, so the Admins closed my serious on topic threads. Rather than just delete the offensive posts. It sucked majorly. :(
Quote: beachbumbabsWizard hasn't read it yet. It's on hold until he does. One of 4 things will happen after that.
It will be reopened unredacted.
It will be scrubbed and reopened.
It will be scrubbed and remain closed.
It will be deleted.
Patience, please.
Edit: Option A, after review, is in effect.
Quote: Mission146My issue with that standard is that anything said about another person could be libelous under that definition.
It would be libellous if (a) false and (b) potential to be damaging. If I called a member something libellous I would be banned. If I knew the identity of the member and it was reasonably public and could be damaging (notwithstanding public figures) it would be libellous. Calling SOOPOO a criminal for example would probably be libellous because there is enough information on this forum to identify him. Calling EvenBob the same might not be because there is no idea for the public to figure out who he is. From the content of his posts I can be pretty positive that he is an older fellow living somewhere in Michigan that is not Detroit, but he just as easily generated a persona where he is actually a 24 year old woman living in Poland.
But I don't think WoV (just like Facebook) could be held legally accountable. This has been confirmed in section 230(c):of federal law and confirmed in Sedan v AOL or Barrett v Rosenthal.
Nonetheless the forum standards hold us to a higher standard than libel. I didn't see anything in the thread as being libellous to darkoz as there is no reasonable way to discern Identity. Even if darkoz's identity was known, he could only be charged with libel if his story was false and negligently so.
Quote: mission
I’m just not in love with the idea of scrubbing an entire thread that is clearly gambling-related that a person posted of his own free will and volition absent a rock solid reason to do so.
Agreed.
Quote: SOOPOOI haven't been paying attention. Teliot?
Says Doxing, but no link. 7 days.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/rules/5288-suspension-list/#post71165
Quote: DeMangoSorry for ignorance, but what is doxing?
"Search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the internet, typically with malicious attempt".
In this case I believe it was the photos of alleged evidence (cell phone pictures) that belonged to someone else with the purpose of associating an individual (darkoz's daughter's fiance) to an alleged crime.
Quote: boymimbo"Search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the internet, typically with malicious attempt".
In this case I believe it was the photos of alleged evidence (cell phone pictures) that belonged to someone else with the purpose of associating an individual (darkoz's daughter's fiance) to an alleged crime.
I've been doxed
I hate scientology and they hate me
I used to post a lot on an anti-scientology web site
They doxed me posting my legal name
I really didn't care. I have nothing to hide
The admins at the site took down the doxed post
Quote: boymimbo"Search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the internet, typically with malicious attempt".
In this case I believe it was the photos of alleged evidence (cell phone pictures) that belonged to someone else with the purpose of associating an individual (darkoz's daughter's fiance) to an alleged crime.
Did teliot re-post the same pictures that darkoz initially posted? If so I must have missed that.
Quote: boymimbo"Search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the internet, typically with malicious attempt".
In this case I believe it was the photos of alleged evidence (cell phone pictures) that belonged to someone else with the purpose of associating an individual (darkoz's daughter's fiance) to an alleged crime.
Teliot originally posted those and not darkoz himself? Um yeah, i totally missed that.
And thanks for the question DeMango. I'm a mod at another forum and was unfamiliar with the term... whoops.
Quote: AcesAndEightsDid teliot re-post the same pictures that darkoz initially posted? If so I must have missed that.
That's what I would have assumed, which would make the suspension unjustified unless the posts were deleted before he reposted them. But I very well may have missed who originally posted the pics.
Quote: tringlomaneTeliot originally posted those and not darkoz himself? Um yeah, i totally missed that.
And thanks for the question DeMango. I'm a mod at another forum and was unfamiliar with the term... whoops.
That's what I would have assumed, which would make the suspension unjustified unless the posts were deleted before he reposted them. But I very well may have missed who originally posted the pics.
Guys guys guys
Record now set straight
The pics of my daughter's fiance posted in the AP nightmare thread had his face and identity blocked
Notice I am not suspended for doxxing (I got 2 days for an insult already served)
In that same thread the subject of our unmentionable sock puppet master came up and Teliot provided a link to his identity where he was on an exclusion list
The doxxing had nothing to do with me aside from residing as a post in my thread
Teliot dug up and posted an obscure document on somebody who had nothing to do with the darkoz thread, as far as I know. We could have also got him for thread hijacking. I don't want to get into details, in the interests of protecting privacy, but it didn't have to do with the photos in that thread.
As a general rule, we like it when accusations are substantiated with evidence. However, protecting personal privacy trumps that.
Quote: terapined
I hate scientology and they hate me
We agree on that, hate having to drive past all their storefronts on the way to Clearwater Beach. They continue to buy up the town. Never will understand how stupid or desperate some are to fall for their scam.
Quote: boymimboQuote: Mission146My issue with that standard is that anything said about another person could be libelous under that definition.
It would be libellous if (a) false and (b) potential to be damaging. If I called a member something libellous I would be banned. If I knew the identity of the member and it was reasonably public and could be damaging (notwithstanding public figures) it would be libellous. Calling SOOPOO a criminal for example would probably be libellous because there is enough information on this forum to identify him. Calling EvenBob the same might not be because there is no idea for the public to figure out who he is. From the content of his posts I can be pretty positive that he is an older fellow living somewhere in Michigan that is not Detroit, but he just as easily generated a persona where he is actually a 24 year old woman living in Poland.
But I don't think WoV (just like Facebook) could be held legally accountable. This has been confirmed in section 230(c):of federal law and confirmed in Sedan v AOL or Barrett v Rosenthal.
Nonetheless the forum standards hold us to a higher standard than libel. I didn't see anything in the thread as being libellous to darkoz as there is no reasonable way to discern Identity. Even if darkoz's identity was known, he could only be charged with libel if his story was false and negligently so.
Agreed.
I always thought DarkOz’s identity was known (like Wizard, Eliot, mendelson, etc.). Is that not the case?
I always wonder where the new money comes from?Quote: Bozhate having to drive past all their storefronts on the way to Clearwater Beach. They continue to buy up the town. Never will understand how stupid or desperate some are to fall for their scam.
Amazing the hold and damage that WoN continues to reap upon this forum. And now he has claimed another victim, a long term poster who is one of the most respected people in the gambling community. I get many have valid reasons for not liking business decisions he has made, but that doesn’t take away who he is. And he certainly wasn’t the only person to work for the Dark Side.
Who would blame Teliot if he never came back? No wonder some want that Black Eye on the forum no longer discussed. Somewhere WoN is sitting back laughing about this.
