Any insight on the reason why some slots have a "Random Grand Jackpot"?

When I first moved to Vegas in the early 2000's, I remember that all the slot machines functioned is more or less the same way. In order to win anything at all, the win had to be triggered by some type of event. This was usually when symbols would line up on the pay line, or if some type of symbol appeared or was selected while in the bonus.

Then at some point things changed a little bit. This anomaly found it's way into the programming where you could just randomly win a bit of money without anything happening to cause it.

I was shocked. How is the game doing this?? Does it just decide randomly on it's own that it's time to pay something? Is it doing some internal calculations and then making a decision? It seems so strange to me that a machine could just randomly decide to pay you without being triggered by something.

And now, low and behold, we have the "Random Grand Jackpot".

So let me get this straight. This machine, for whatever reason, will just randomly pay out the highest amount of money it has to offer without a single thing happening to cause it?

I just find it so hard to believe that this even exists. There must be a reason.

1. The manufacturer decided to include the "Random Grand Jackpot" as just a neat little feature to entice people to play.
2. There's a mathematical reason behind it.

So obviously, I'm leaning towards the math on this one. Problem is, it has to be legal.

My first guess is that if the machine has strayed too far from it's RTP for too long of a period without the Grand Jackpot hitting in one of the traditional ways, it will realize this and randomly pay the Grand to balance everything out. I'm not sure if that's actually legal, but I cannot come up with any other explanation for why a machine would pay out the Grand randomly.

Does anyone know more about this?

First off have you considered if the grand jackpots are considered in the actual base RTP? I for some reason do not think so but im always wrong..

and second

The random thing you are talking about is a ... process ... its real in life and it exists... its not just words described as "random shit is happening"... at least to the people who understand how to program a random event.

I dont know how mathematical you are... i my self am not very. But i am going to try to construct / explain a very basic "random event" that anyone can program... because this stuff cant happen without a computer or programming.

So we have this event that were going to make random. I dont care what stuff you tie to the event, be it "winning", "losing", or displaying the text "Hello world" when the random event happens.

Usually when math teachers speak about probability, they speak about a bag of marbles.

In a computer I can digitally reconstruct this bag of marbles, and not only that I can control the probability of the event that happens.

What is probability in the sense of what I am doing to me? Its the total number of marbles in the bag, and the number of the types of marbles i place into the bag.

So I have a bag of marbles, and I decided that in that bag of marbles there will be 1 labeled winner and 9 labeled loser.

What is the probability you will win with my bag of marbles in play? 1 in 10

....

This random event that i described is just the very basic example of how the computer handles the internal process of the EVENT itself...

after everything is setup, then the random number is chosen

this random number is usually limited to the size of the bag or marbles

then the random number that is chosen after everything is setup, is used to choose a random marble in the bag.

The bag at this point in the computers memory looks something like this:

[0] Winning marble
[1] losing marble
[2] losing marble
[3] losing marble
[4] losing marble
[5] losing marble
[6] losing marble
[7] losing marble
[8] losing marble
[9] losing marble

An RNG chooses one and one number only at any moment in time

the number that might be chosen by the RNG is 0 though 9 in our case here

the total probabilities here of winning are 1/10 and losing is 9/10

once the marble is chosen your event is complete

if the RNG chooses the number 7, we go back to the bag, associate the number 7 with its marble, and we tell the player they have a losing marble and if its 0 we have a winning marble

a process like this happens in the computer transparently without you knowing.

"First off have you considered if the grand jackpots are considered in the actual base RTP? I for some reason do not think so but im always wrong.."

Grand Jackpots are always considered in the RTP. The machine cannot achieve it's RTP without the Grand hitting.

I do understand how the RNG works. My question is if the Random Grand Jackpot occurs simply because the RNG spit it out, or does it occur because the game realizes that it needs to come out for some reason other than randomness.

I'm not sure if the grand jackpots being referred to are linked jackpots across multiple machines, or if they are specific to individual machines. A lot of the game providers in the US also operate in the UK, and here there are laws about the information they have to publish on the machine. As a rule, linked jackpots are IN ADDITION to the published RTP of the individual machine, but a jackpot which is unique to a machine is included in the RTP.

Quote: Gravy

"First off have you considered if the grand jackpots are considered in the actual base RTP? I for some reason do not think so but im always wrong.."

Grand Jackpots are always considered in the RTP. The machine cannot achieve it's RTP without the Grand hitting.

I do understand how the RNG works. My question is if the Random Grand Jackpot occurs simply because the RNG spit it out, or does it occur because the game realizes that it needs to come out for some reason other than randomness.
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The Random Grand occurs only because the RNG spit it out.

It does not happen for some other reason not related to randomness because if machines spit out jackpots for other reasons than randomness someone (including the game designers) could play when they know the condition for the jackpot needing to come out is about to be met.

"It does not happen for some other reason not related to randomness because if machines spit out jackpots for other reasons than randomness someone (including the game designers) could play when they know the condition for the jackpot needing to come out is about to be met."

But how would they know something like that? They don't know how much coin-in the machine has played. They also don't know how much the machine has paid out over a long-term.

Quote: Gravy

So let me get this straight. This machine, for whatever reason, will just randomly pay out the highest amount of money it has to offer without a single thing happening to cause it?

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So let ME get this straight: you’re saying any bet could potentially award the top prize? I know at least one single thing has to happen to cause it: someone has to place a bet!

Usually someone has to place the maximum bet possible to win the top prize. And if that person does place such a bet, by random chance, the top prize might be awarded!

But what you seem to be implying is that ANY ol’ bet could — randomly — award the top prize. Is that a correct interpretation?

Quote: Gravy

"It does not happen for some other reason not related to randomness because if machines spit out jackpots for other reasons than randomness someone (including the game designers) could play when they know the condition for the jackpot needing to come out is about to be met."

But how would they know something like that? They don't know how much coin-in the machine has played. They also don't know how much the machine has paid out over a long-term.
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Insiders can see all this information on reports. Outsiders could track a machine.

Not saying it’s easy, but gaming regulations require machines to be random to avoid this exact scenario where someone could track a non random event and play when that condition is met.

Gravy, I get what your saying, how do WE know that the process to pick the grand is not something other than the example I gave you before.

And the answer is that WE do not know, but gaming control boards, specifically have to have the games INDEPENDENTLY tested, thanks to someone named Ron Harris.

The only people who know whats happening are the gaming control, and the independent testers of the games.

We will never know unless you hack into their systems and look at their code.

Quote: Brickapotamus

Insiders can see all this information on reports.

They would have to get inside the machine to see this. It's not happening.

Quote: blackjacklad

I'm not sure if the grand jackpots being referred to are linked jackpots across multiple machines, or if they are specific to individual machines. A lot of the game providers in the US also operate in the UK, and here there are laws about the information they have to publish on the machine. As a rule, linked jackpots are IN ADDITION to the published RTP of the individual machine, but a jackpot which is unique to a machine is included in the RTP.

These jackpots aren't linked. The machines aren't even online.
The Grand Jackpot is the top prize. It's rare to hit, but when it does, the player is usually in the bonus round. That's the most common way for it to hit. It can also be hit randomly though just by pressing the button. Imagine putting $5 into a slot machine, betting $1, the symbols on the lines don't line up to pay you anything, but then a window appears that says you just won the Grand Jackpot. It just doesn't make any sense.

I see this most often with games that have a fixed jackpot amount, say $10,000. This jackpot is available regardless of what you bet, but to make the RTP work out at every bet, they must adjust the probability of hitting the jackpot. If you bet $0.50, the odds might be 1 in 2M, but if you bet $10, the odds are now 1 in 100,000. The use of a random jackpot is the easy way to adjust these odds. If the jackpot scales with the bet, then this is just stupid to implement.

Quote: CrystalMath

... If you bet $0.50, the odds might be 1 in 2M, but if you bet $10, the odds are now 1 in 100,000. If the jackpot scales with the bet, then this is just stupid to implement.

I'm pretty sure it does scale.

With games like Dragon Link and Phoenix Link, doesn't the size of the Grand Jackpot go up as the bet size increases? The lowest bet size (50 cents or $1.00 I think) has it around $10k. But if you were to up the bet to $25 a pull it should be quite a bit larger than $10K. More like $50K. And regardless of bet size the probability of hitting the grand is the same.

On phoenix link or buffalo link the grand is the same size for all bet sizes .

Quote: CrystalMath

I see this most often with games that have a fixed jackpot amount, say $10,000. This jackpot is available regardless of what you bet, but to make the RTP work out at every bet, they must adjust the probability of hitting the jackpot. If you bet $0.50, the odds might be 1 in 2M, but if you bet $10, the odds are now 1 in 100,000. The use of a random jackpot is the easy way to adjust these odds. If the jackpot scales with the bet, then this is just stupid to implement.
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Yeah. This makes it easier to scale probability. They can get close enough to the target probability in the bonus game and then add the rest using the "random" jackpot. Not just for RTP. It can be against the law to have lower progressive odds for a higher bet.

You can only win the "random" jackpot on a non-free spin when the regular jackpot cannot be won. They are making math work out right.

Quote: Gravy

Quote: CrystalMath

... If you bet $0.50, the odds might be 1 in 2M, but if you bet $10, the odds are now 1 in 100,000. If the jackpot scales with the bet, then this is just stupid to implement.

I'm pretty sure it does scale.

With games like Dragon Link and Phoenix Link, doesn't the size of the Grand Jackpot go up as the bet size increases? The lowest bet size (50 cents or $1.00 I think) has it around $10k. But if you were to up the bet to $25 a pull it should be quite a bit larger than $10K. More like $50K. And regardless of bet size the probability of hitting the grand is the same.
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Gravy as of this point I think we all understand this stuff very well. What is confusing is really 1 which jurisdiction you are in to begin with 2 which are the exact machines you are speaking about 3 what are the rules such as in the help screen of whichever jackpot you are speaking about.

There are so many variations of these types of jackpots and games that if we dont start by defining that information well never get anywhere

do you have pictures of these machines and any of the help screens defining the rules of those games in particular

also this event you are talking about is most likely just a random number that is chosen and it has to match that specific random number or something

Quote: Gravy

Quote: Brickapotamus

Insiders can see all this information on reports.

They would have to get inside the machine to see this. It's not happening.
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It’s not happening because the jackpot is random.

Whether they can see inside the machine or not the trigger for the grand is based on the random number generator not on something non random that is predictable.