Discussion II about the Suspension List

I'm thinking about going with this one









Or maybe this one.






Maybe I should just let people vote and put up all my possible choices.

Free your mind and your ass will follow.

Quote: MaxPen

I'm thinking about going with this one









Or maybe this one.






Maybe I should just let people vote and put up all my possible choices.

Both pictures are great options. Much better than the literal Nazi propoganda you used for your last avatar.

I like these two pictures because it's clear you think they are offensive, but they really aren't at all....

I don't think they are offensive. I think they portray the truth. The other one I thought was funny (because it is how you perceive reality) but agree that it was in poor taste. Yours however remains in poor taste.

Now go back to crying in your corner.

Quote: MaxPen

I don't think they are offensive. I think they portray the truth.

Note that Obama was young when that pic was taken.

It may be he was interested in Islam at the time, then changed his mind and moved on.

Heck, I used to be Catholic, and rejected that when I started thinking for myself.

'Yeah, the rejects at GF ran out of things to cry about.'

If you're referencing the Gambling Forum site, why are there so many moderators and people from this site over there? And that's just from a quick backwards look. What do they have to cry about?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Joe. Bob.

If I suspend either of you, I'm suspending both. You've been equally rude and reprehensible to each other throughout this thread, to other people in other threads, and to each other on other threads.

I think you both bring value when you're not busy bringing the snark. So I'm giving you this last chance warning. Your choices:

Truce.

Ignore each other.

Continue for a double nuke.

I do not believe that this is anything close to a fair resolution of this situation. Perhaps both have been "equally rude and reprehensible to each other throughout this thread," but both are not on an even keel based on the "Suspension List" or the normal policies here on suspensions.

One member appears 3 times on the suspension list, one member does not appear at all. One of the proposed actions of the moderator is that they continue for a "double nuke". I am sure that moderator favors the first two alternatives, truce or ignore, but the third possibility should not be a double nuke. The normal process on this forum is to continue suspensions through the Martingale, though there are exceptions.

I think the fair resolution to this issue, based on the rules of the forum, is to suspend each member for actual personal insults as dictated by the Martingale. When one of them reaches the "Nuke" level under that policy, proceed to lunch.

I am willing to bet anyone $1.00 that one of them will get nuked way ahead of the other if handled in this manner.

Quote: RonC

I do not believe that this is anything close to a fair resolution of this situation. Perhaps both have been "equally rude and reprehensible to each other throughout this thread," but both are not on an even keel based on the "Suspension List" or the normal policies here on suspensions.

Without looking back on my comments with a fine tooth comb, if I were to guess what I did I would say I was mostly just playing with Joe. I think he's pretty smart.

About being rude to others in other threads, I'd have to look back because I'm inclined to think I wasn't. Perhaps I come off different to others than I think I'm doing. I am certainly opinionated, and I know I get sarcastic. I didn't think I was mean. I'll try to look honestly at myself and walk on eggshells for awhile.

Quote: RonC

I do not believe that this is anything close to a fair resolution of this situation. Perhaps both have been "equally rude and reprehensible to each other throughout this thread," but both are not on an even keel based on the "Suspension List" or the normal policies here on suspensions.

Ron, you've had a hard-on for me for months now. I know you don't like me--that's pretty obvious. I weep bitterly every day at that realization. But as far as what YOU think is fair--that means nothing, nothing, nothing. This thread reminds me of a fourth-grade recess where all the tough kids huddle to decide who they're going to beat up. Nothing more mature or meaningful than that.

I realize that the recent election has turned the whole country nasty, and that's reflected in this forum. I have turned that way, too, because I am outraged. People I care about are going to be hurt, some badly, because of the man that most of YOU--inexplicably--love. Does that make you monsters? No. Sadly, just easily deluded, pathetic human beings. I'm sure many Trumpers are loads of fun at parties, and there will be lots of laughter and camaraderie at the deportation parties and lynchings.

My error has been in descending to Trumper level. It's also been to think that I could convince anyone here of anything whatsoever. I have failed to appreciate the visceral, almost sexual appeal of bigotry and hatred. I thought that people had a "good side" and that they surely aren't as sexist, racist, and stupid as all that. I was wrong. Utterly, completely wrong. Hatred is the primary motivator of human actions and thoughts, and the Trumpers here are no exception to that.

And Ron, let me take this opportunity to tell you that I don't put you in the rabid Trumper camp. You have said a bunch of things that make you appear to be a Trumper, but you also show some thought and reflection. You're probably not an evil person (no way to tell for sure). Take that for what it's worth (probably zilch).

All this back & forth snarking between various members with no indecipherable commenting from 2F made me realize that he's been missing! Where did he go?

I see his last post was Nov. 9th. Is he taking a post-election sabbatical a la EvenBob in 2012? But his side won!

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Ron, you've had a hard-on for me for months now. I know you don't like me--that's pretty obvious. I weep bitterly every day at that realization. But as far as what YOU think is fair--that means nothing, nothing, nothing. This thread reminds me of a fourth-grade recess where all the tough kids huddle to decide who they're going to beat up. Nothing more mature or meaningful than that.

I realize that the recent election has turned the whole country nasty, and that's reflected in this forum. I have turned that way, too, because I am outraged. People I care about are going to be hurt, some badly, because of the man that most of YOU--inexplicably--love. Does that make you monsters? No. Sadly, just easily deluded, pathetic human beings. I'm sure many Trumpers are loads of fun at parties, and there will be lots of laughter and camaraderie at the deportation parties and lynchings.

My error has been in descending to Trumper level. It's also been to think that I could convince anyone here of anything whatsoever. I have failed to appreciate the visceral, almost sexual appeal of bigotry and hatred. I thought that people had a "good side" and that they surely aren't as sexist, racist, and stupid as all that. I was wrong. Utterly, completely wrong. Hatred is the primary motivator of human actions and thoughts, and the Trumpers here are no exception to that.

And Ron, let me take this opportunity to tell you that I don't put you in the rabid Trumper camp. You have said a bunch of things that make you appear to be a Trumper, but you also show some thought and reflection. You're probably not an evil person (no way to tell for sure). Take that for what it's worth (probably zilch).

You don't get it at all, do you? I would willingly listen to your positions on the issues and perhaps even change my thinking a bit on certain issues if you did not constantly insist on calling names, applying labels, and just generally being nasty to people. You've used words like "insane", "Trumpers", etc. as insults and colored just on the line of personal insults. You've crossed that line more times than you have been suspended for, and that is okay, There are many here that can have conversations with both sides; it does not seem that is possible for you. Once you go to name calling, what you say means less and less to me and I would think to most people here.

This thread, whether you happen to like it or not, is a place provided to us to discuss suspension and suspension-related issues. A potential suspension situation exists between you and another member...so I came to the appropriate place to discuss it. Just like you have your right to your opinions, I have my right to mine. My opinion is that the suspensions--if you two can't get along--should go through the normal processes, not just to the "nuke" level. Now, I do not get to make that call but I can comment about. BBB may challenge my thoughts on the issue, ignore them, suspend me, or whatever. I have addressed them in the proper place on the Forum, so I would think the worst that should happen between BBB and me is that we agree to disagree.

"Bigotry" and "hatred" are great words to toss around to try and claim superiority, but there really isn't a whole lot of that here. You use those words awfully loosely so that they seem to apply to a lot more people here than the amount that actually are bigoted or hateful. You do know that it is okay to disagree with something without being called names, don't you?

Quote: RonC

... not just to the "nuke" level.

What is "nuke level"? Does that mean permanent ban?

Quote: bobbartop

What is "nuke level"? Does that mean permanent ban?

Yes.

Quote: ams288

...missing!

HERE

Quote: ams288

Yes.

Thanks.

To RonC's point, nuking a member for his 1st offense seems rather extreme.

Quote: RonC

You don't get it at all, do you?

Oh, I get it. This thread is where everyone gets to show solidarity with the pack. Single someone out, beat up on them, and you feel more securely part of the group as a result. Schoolyard bullying is as old as human society itself.

When I came back to the forum a few days ago, there were NINE snarky posts about me (on various threads) within 24 hours. I clearly provide a service for the Trumpers here in being a target for their hatred, derision, etc. It's the playground--it's the jungle--it's the hyena pack. The shit that people have said about me has had nothing to do with rational discussion.

I'm sure you'd say, well, you brought it on yourself. Maybe so--but I refuse to listen to anyone who condemns nastiness only when they aren't the one dishing it out. And as far as bigotry, hatred, and sexism go--well, I've seen a LOT of that here. An AWFUL lot. It's been kind of sickening and appalling, to be honest. And yes, it colors my own discourse when I see it. A lot of what gets said here is a perfect microcosm of what's wrong with this country.

I do not put you in this category, but I regard most of the folks here as spiteful, petulant children at best; knuckle-dragging bigots at worst. I live in a community where common decency is the norm and people are nice to one another, Then I come here and see all the nastiness, and I can't help but see the contrast. And yes, it has polluted me as well.

I would like to apologize for misconstruing some of the things you said. You have an aggressive argumentative style and don't like being told you're wrong. But that doesn't mean that you're necessarily a Trumper. We actually could have exchanged some good ideas. I think that you're too deeply affiliated with the hyena pack for that to happen now, though. A shame.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Oh, I get it. This thread is where everyone gets to show solidarity with the pack. Single someone out, beat up on them, and you feel more securely part of the group as a result. Schoolyard bullying is as old as human society itself.

When I came back to the forum a few days ago, there were NINE snarky posts about me (on various threads) within 24 hours. I clearly provide a service for the Trumpers here in being a target for their hatred, derision, etc. It's the playground--it's the jungle--it's the hyena pack. The shit that people have said about me has had nothing to do with rational discussion.

I'm sure you'd say, well, you brought it on yourself. Maybe so--but I refuse to listen to anyone who condemns nastiness only when they aren't the one dishing it out. And as far as bigotry, hatred, and sexism go--well, I've seen a LOT of that here. An AWFUL lot. It's been kind of sickening and appalling, to be honest. And yes, it colors my own discourse when I see it. A lot of what gets said here is a perfect microcosm of what's wrong with this country.

I do not put you in this category, but I regard most of the folks here as spiteful, petulant children at best; knuckle-dragging bigots at worst. I live in a community where common decency is the norm and people are nice to one another, Then I come here and see all the nastiness, and I can't help but see the contrast. And yes, it has polluted me as well.

I would like to apologize for misconstruing some of the things you said. You have an aggressive argumentative style and don't like being told you're wrong. But that doesn't mean that you're necessarily a Trumper. We actually could have exchanged some good ideas. I think that you're too deeply affiliated with the hyena pack for that to happen now, though. A shame.

In this particular thread, I have addressed the proposed "third stop" that BBB wrote about. It has nothing to do with you personally, other than my $1.00 bet that you will get suspended again for insulting someone (no one has taken me up on that bet). I just don't think that nuking two people is the proper resolution when one has been suspended three times and the other zero. That's it...I did not really intend to do anything more than that.

Do you agree with the proposed third step or not?

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Oh, I get it. This thread is where everyone gets to show solidarity with the pack. Single someone out, beat up on them, and you feel more securely part of the group as a result. Schoolyard bullying is as old as human society itself.

When I came back to the forum a few days ago, there were NINE snarky posts about me (on various threads) within 24 hours. I clearly provide a service for the Trumpers here in being a target for their hatred, derision, etc. It's the playground--it's the jungle--it's the hyena pack. The shit that people have said about me has had nothing to do with rational discussion.

I'm sure you'd say, well, you brought it on yourself. Maybe so--but I refuse to listen to anyone who condemns nastiness only when they aren't the one dishing it out. And as far as bigotry, hatred, and sexism go--well, I've seen a LOT of that here. An AWFUL lot. It's been kind of sickening and appalling, to be honest. And yes, it colors my own discourse when I see it. A lot of what gets said here is a perfect microcosm of what's wrong with this country.

I do not put you in this category, but I regard most of the folks here as spiteful, petulant children at best; knuckle-dragging bigots at worst. I live in a community where common decency is the norm and people are nice to one another, Then I come here and see all the nastiness, and I can't help but see the contrast. And yes, it has polluted me as well.

I would like to apologize for misconstruing some of the things you said. You have an aggressive argumentative style and don't like being told you're wrong. But that doesn't mean that you're necessarily a Trumper. We actually could have exchanged some good ideas. I think that you're too deeply affiliated with the hyena pack for that to happen now, though. A shame.

Do you realize that about 95% of your posts are negative, condescending or derogatory? History shows that normally doesn't end well.

Perhaps people dislike joe so much because of posts like this:

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Ron, you've had a hard-on for me for months now. I know you don't like me--that's pretty obvious. I weep bitterly every day at that realization. But as far as what YOU think is fair--that means nothing, nothing, nothing. This thread reminds me of a fourth-grade recess where all the tough kids huddle to decide who they're going to beat up. Nothing more mature or meaningful than that.

I realize that the recent election has turned the whole country nasty, and that's reflected in this forum. I have turned that way, too, because I am outraged. People I care about are going to be hurt, some badly, because of the man that most of YOU--inexplicably--love. Does that make you monsters? No. Sadly, just easily deluded, pathetic human beings. I'm sure many Trumpers are loads of fun at parties, and there will be lots of laughter and camaraderie at the deportation parties and lynchings.

My error has been in descending to Trumper level. It's also been to think that I could convince anyone here of anything whatsoever. I have failed to appreciate the visceral, almost sexual appeal of bigotry and hatred. I thought that people had a "good side" and that they surely aren't as sexist, racist, and stupid as all that. I was wrong. Utterly, completely wrong. Hatred is the primary motivator of human actions and thoughts, and the Trumpers here are no exception to that.

And Ron, let me take this opportunity to tell you that I don't put you in the rabid Trumper camp. You have said a bunch of things that make you appear to be a Trumper, but you also show some thought and reflection. You're probably not an evil person (no way to tell for sure). Take that for what it's worth (probably zilch).

You're calling people here racist, bigoted, sexist, etc. And it's clear who(m?) you're talking about. Since when is this OK?

Unless or until he's nuked: if you don't want to read what the man has to say, BLOCK HIM.

It's not up to us to tell him when he's crossed the line: that's up to the mods.

Quote: MrV

Unless or until he's nuked: if you don't want to read what the man has to say, BLOCK HIM.

It's not up to us to tell him when he's crossed the line: that's up to the mods.

Thanks for the advice my friend.

Quote: Boz

Thanks for the advice my friend.

I wasn't talking to you.

Oh, and I am NOT your friend, as you well know.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Oh, I get it. This thread is where everyone gets to show solidarity with the pack. Single someone out, beat up on them, and you feel more securely part of the group as a result. Schoolyard bullying is as old as human society itself.

When I came back to the forum a few days ago, there were NINE snarky posts about me (on various threads) within 24 hours. I clearly provide a service for the Trumpers here in being a target for their hatred, derision, etc. It's the playground--it's the jungle--it's the hyena pack. The shit that people have said about me has had nothing to do with rational discussion.

I'm sure you'd say, well, you brought it on yourself. Maybe so--but I refuse to listen to anyone who condemns nastiness only when they aren't the one dishing it out. And as far as bigotry, hatred, and sexism go--well, I've seen a LOT of that here. An AWFUL lot. It's been kind of sickening and appalling, to be honest. And yes, it colors my own discourse when I see it. A lot of what gets said here is a perfect microcosm of what's wrong with this country.

I do not put you in this category, but I regard most of the folks here as spiteful, petulant children at best; knuckle-dragging bigots at worst. I live in a community where common decency is the norm and people are nice to one another, Then I come here and see all the nastiness, and I can't help but see the contrast. And yes, it has polluted me as well.

I would like to apologize for misconstruing some of the things you said. You have an aggressive argumentative style and don't like being told you're wrong. But that doesn't mean that you're necessarily a Trumper. We actually could have exchanged some good ideas. I think that you're too deeply affiliated with the hyena pack for that to happen now, though. A shame.

Quote: MrV

I wasn't talking to you.

Oh, and I am NOT your friend, as you well know.

Sorry you feel that way, I see you as one of the good guys and your defense of others long forgotten as a gimmick.

I may be wrong, with you it's hard to tell, but I hope to meet you someday and shake hands my friend.

That would be cool.

Peace.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Oh, I get it. This thread is where everyone gets to show solidarity with the pack. Single someone out, beat up on them, and you feel more securely part of the group as a result. Schoolyard bullying is as old as human society itself.

FWIW, I'm a big fan, despite the fact you will (or should) certainly label me as a Trumperist.

On the off chance you're a legit new member, I can only say that you joined at a really weird time, as the election was ramping up and we mods had mostly stepped just about all the way back to allow the opportunity for expression. And since you are a very political person, you were neck deep in the s#$%. I can assure you, the Election thread is not how WoV is typically run.

I'm chiming in because at this rate, you'll be gone before Dec. In fact, were this the WoV from a year ago, you'd already be gone and forgotten, likely within the first week. I do NOT want that to happen. When you're not tossing obvious snark, I am typically wowed by your brilliance. Say true, as I do not read member's names when reading, I have repeatedly mistaken you for Pacomartin over at DT, and I'm not sure if there's a higher praise than that. Even when you wrote what (to me) was a horrifying hyper-socialism post to ME about "how you would do things", I could not help but be fascinated, despite my disgust over the contents of your post.

Just be cool, man. I've been waiting for you for years.

Quote: RS

Perhaps people dislike joe so much because of posts like this:



You're calling people here racist, bigoted, sexist, etc. And it's clear who(m?) you're talking about. Since when is this OK?

When it's an accurate description. And since most people here are Trumpers (as internal polls show), that description is indeed accurate for them--you can't support Trump without being a racist, a bigot, and a misogynist. Why? Because unless you are all of those things, the things he says and does should be repulsive to you. (Being stupid helps as well, but it's not a requirement.)

If you are not a Trumper and don't like being painted by that brush, I apologize. But I feel and continue to feel that the hate spewed by Trumpers MUST be opposed at every turn. Just look at a video of a Trump rally and ask yourself if you want to live in a world dominated by such people.

Of course it already knows it has a vomit provoking effect. That's the purpose. Duh. It may not even have whatever particular thought-snippet it types "about" something at the moment. It might think the opposite, or nothing about it at all without any real underlying interest in the topic. It is getting what it wants. Through constant random provocation. And the method isn't a flaw that's in the way of some kind of relevant substance, it is the point. Same as others before it and still more that will follow.

And it will keep doing so for months without much effort here, taking advantage of the site's peculiar choice to avoid the usual application of ordinary common sense right from the get go, instead opting for the long elaborate creation of almost endless extra drama by something like: "Temporary suspension number XVII may be issued upon an Act of Congress finding a specific violation of Sub-paragraph 29(c)[iii] under rule #17 of an official revision of Hammurabi's Code by the Council of Trent as declared by Papal Encyclical, at which time extra attention shall be provided to it by engraving above a bonfire a new entry in the Suspension Broadcast Tablet atop Mount Futility, and...blah, blah"

All by way of pretending that it isn't what it obviously is, apparently to make believe it could somehow become something different, while doing everything possible to encourage it. Oh well, whacha get is wacha got, like it or lump it, way to keep it super small and pretty weird. That's just how it is in this odd little corner. Or, perhaps this will be the very first time anywhere ever that such an individual magically changed whatever ails them and had a character rebirth in response to an anonymous web forum.

Quote: Face

I could not help but be fascinated, despite my disgust over the contents of your post.

Just be cool, man. I've been waiting for you for years.

Well, isn't fascination mixed with disgust pretty much Trump's appeal in a nutshell? I mean, he spouts all this stuff that Joe Sixpack doesn't dare say in public--but Joe is thinking it, oh my yes.

I really don't care if I get bounced or not. People here hate me, with a few exceptions (and I thank you for what you said). I have said it's mostly due to the fact that I oppose their politics so strongly; they in turn say it's the way I speak, even though they speak just as nastily when they want to. The thing is, I don't just disagree with conservatism, racism, sexism, and bigotry. I HATE those things. And you know what? None of those things affects me directly. But they DO affect lots of people whom I love.

You see, I'm a student of human psychology. And I know that Trumpism appeals to human instincts that are not just our basest; they are also our most fundamental. We really, really want to just grab a rock and bash that "other" over the head rather than talking to him. Trumpers are hefting rocks and smiling to themselves.

And y'know, maybe hyper-socialism isn't the best way to go, but it's sure better than a society based on fear, tribalism, and xenophobia. I smell so much of that here on this forum. I wish people were as scared of it as I was. We can go down the dark path SO DAMN EASILY. And every time a decent people have done that, everyone said it couldn't happen, right up until the moment when it did.

Peace, dude. I mean that sincerely (especially if my board lifespan can be measured in hours, I want to metaphorically shake your hand while I still have the chance).

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Just look at a video of a Trump rally and ask yourself if you want to live in a world dominated by such people.

Yes, yes I do.

I see middle class working people who have lost their middle class American jobs over the years.
I see people who just want a fair shot at the American dream as their parents spoke of.
I see people whose Health insurance has quadrupled in the past 6 years.
I see people who respect the rights the Constitution gave them.
I see immigrants who followed the rules and love this country
I see current Union members tired of being the "lucky" ones left with a job

What I don't see:

People expecting their college to be free
People believing Canada is better than the US
Wall Street millionaires
Huffington Post comment writers protesting gun violence when a Somolia immigrant drives over students
Jill Stein
People like Bernie who have earned over 3.7M in the past 30 years and have less than 600k to show for it.
Any of the 11,540 people shot in Chicago since 2008



Give the man a chance, he won by the rules and the Great thing about America is you can change it all in 4 years.

Quote: Boz

Yes, yes I do.

I see (etc.)

Give the man a chance, he won by the rules and the Great thing about America is you can change it all in 4 years.

Well, you see what you want to see. I saw angry mobs screaming hate slogans. I saw people waving signs that advocated racism, sexism, and hatred. I saw something more similar to a troop of chimpanzees fighting than anything else.

The middle class anger thing is legitimate, but Trump's promises are not. He says he'll choke off trade and that will magically bring back jobs (that are forever gone due to technological changes). Joe Sixpack, screaming at the hate rallies, loves Trump because of those promises. He also loves the scapegoating of Mexicans and Muslims. Anything rather than admit that his problems are his own.

The rules that Trump won by need fixing, and I'm not saying that because he won. They would have needed fixing had Hillary won. What worries me isn't Trump, though. It's the Republican attempts--alarmingly successful so far--to disenfranchise the poor and minorities. They're attempting to make it so that we CAN'T change it all in four years. They want a thousand-year Republican Reich, and it looks like they'll get it.

Reich? Nice term, you win.

Quote: Boz

Reich? Nice term, you win.

Don't forget to say something about Godwin's Law. That's mandatory on the internet.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Don't forget to say something about Godwin's Law. That's mandatory on the internet.

No seriously, you win.

Quote: Boz

No seriously, you win.

Thankfully we, the American people, have won.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

I really don't care if I get bounced or not. People here hate me, with a few exceptions (and I thank you for what you said). I have said it's mostly due to the fact that I oppose their politics so strongly; they in turn say it's the way I speak, even though they speak just as nastily when they want to. The thing is, I don't just disagree with conservatism, racism, sexism, and bigotry. I HATE those things. And you know what? None of those things affects me directly. But they DO affect lots of people whom I love.

I can say, with not total assurance but certainly some, that any darts chucked your way aren't entirely from a simple disagreement of ideologies. Granted, there are some, on both sides, who feel compelled to battle with those they view as their "opponent", or sillier, their "enemy". Yes, you will certainly find those on your ass for no other reason than you identify as Left.

But a majority, and I do mean that sincerely, will be happy to fight your ideology while leaving you the person whole. And that's the aim here, whether talking idiots in the White House or whatever whackadoo gambling grail someone thinks they happened upon. We WANT the discussion, we want you to speak and be heard. And I don't think I'm alone in saying that I like when things get hot and passionate, I like to see the energy some give in a hotly contested debate. We just gotta stay within the lines.

And that's not directed entirely at you. As I said, we've sort of allowed... no, we completely allowed myriad violations of the rules during the election run-up. It's plain as day to anyone who's been here half a minute that things were different. I'm hoping now that it's over we can start to tighten back up and get back closer to where we were, and not continue down this path of chaos.

But what I would direct at you is that whatever "hate" you perceive has little if anything to do with your Left identification, and everything to do with your words directed at others. Thinking Trump is (insert all your insults here) is A-OK from a rules standpoint. Pointing out some of the animals who have supported him, and I'm talking the dirt bags you see in the media, the hyper Right, is also fine and dandy. Conservatism, the GOP, you can rail to your heart's content. But you specifically target members here, or otherwise include them in the group that your vitriol is let loose upon, and that riles. And THAT is the problem where you are concerned.

You need not dial back your outrage. I couldn't even imagine me asking something like that, as I would want no part of diluting you. But there are ways to destroy what a person beliefs without destroying the person, and there's no way you could convince me that you don't understand that. That's it. That's all I and the other mods ask. Just don't target members. If they get butt hurt because you slighted their god, too damn bad. If they are appalled at your ideology, that's THEIR problem, not yours, not mine.

And I would hope that though I am speaking to you here, that others realize it's also address to the forum at large. This isn't me taking Joeshlabotnik's teeth so y'all can pounce free of worry. Just be cool. Get you some MathEx level of composure and fight the good fight. Bad fights are simply boring =/

As an aside, perhaps some explanation, some vitriol free explanation, would help. Rereading your post, I see that you HATE conservatism. I recall you much earlier posting something about rounding all cons up and shipping them off. Perhaps with explanation, others would understand and could see where you're coming from. Without it, you've offended a full half of the entire forum, including those who identify as cons but who could very well hold none of the views you so disdain while also having many traits you find desirable. I get the feeling you've had some personal experiences which have severely turned you off and are posting from that viewpoint, whereas those of us who are not aware of them (see also: everyone here) just see a guy unreasonably angry for no reason. I dunno, just a thought.

Virtual handshake accepted, and returned =)

Quote: DeMango

Thankfully we, the American people, have won.

Sadly, 47% of the American people think that they did.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

When it's an accurate description. And since most people here are Trumpers (as internal polls show), that description is indeed accurate for them--you can't support Trump without being a racist, a bigot, and a misogynist. Why? Because unless you are all of those things, the things he says and does should be repulsive to you. (Being stupid helps as well, but it's not a requirement.)

That just doesn't make any sense unless you think because Hillary Clinton is a lier, thief and horrible person to her Staff and people that work with her, that anyone that supports her is all of those things.

ZCore13

Quote: Face

As an aside, perhaps some explanation, some vitriol free explanation, would help. Rereading your post, I see that you HATE conservatism. I recall you much earlier posting something about rounding all cons up and shipping them off. Perhaps with explanation, others would understand and could see where you're coming from. Without it, you've offended a full half of the entire forum, including those who identify as cons but who could very well hold none of the views you so disdain while also having many traits you find desirable. I get the feeling you've had some personal experiences which have severely turned you off and are posting from that viewpoint, whereas those of us who are not aware of them (see also: everyone here) just see a guy unreasonably angry for no reason. I dunno, just a thought.

Well, though I think you might be the only one who will care, I'll tell you exactly why I hate conservatism. I think the premise that life was better back in the 1950s is flawed and idiotic. It might have been better for some white males, but that isn't the same thing. I'm old enough to remember casual racism, food and water that had toxins in it, polio, everybody smoking and people developing lung cancer, saber-rattling on both sides from old white guys unwilling to appear weak by compromising (and the constant fear that someone would miscalculate and we'd all die), women essentially confined to being either housewives or schoolteachers, gays being routinely hunted down and killed while law enforcement looked the other way...it wasn't any flippin' paradise on earth. But conservatives want to go back to all that. And they bleat about "the values of our Founding Fathers," conveniently ignoring that those values included that women shouldn't be allowed to vote, that blacks were only 3/5 of a person, and that criticizing the government should be a criminal act (see: Alien and Sedition Act).

I am fortunate that I'm a white male and was thus in the dominant class in the world in which I grew up. But I knew hundreds of people--some of them good friends--who didn't have that privilege. And I saw them picked on, discriminated against, denied opportunities, insulted, degraded, and denied the rights that conservatives always bleated belonged to all--as long as you were a white, straight, non-disabled male, that is. Also, I saw poor people suffer--and kept hearing the myth that they were poor because they were lazy. In reality, they work harder than just about anyone else. I was homeless for almost a year about 25 years ago. It took several months of brutal effort just to claw my way out of that state. I worked all bleeping day in the 100-degree sun for forty dollars. I remember it well. And I was surrounded by dozens of "lazy poor" doing the same thing.

I also hate conservatism's righteous ties to religion and the way the Right uses religious beliefs as a pretext for oppression. Religion is a stupid delusion, but you're entitled to engage in any delusion you wish. Where that ends is when you use it to take away the rights of others--and conservatives seem to love to try that at every opportunity.

So yeah, my hatred of conservatism is from personal experience, but it's also from observation. I see the fat cats get fatter while their toadies complain that every single social advance will cripple and crush sacred American Business. Republicans said that about child labor laws, the forty-hour work week, Social Security, unemployment insurance, pollution controls, and yes, Obamacare--the same song, over and over and over. It's as if the ONLY thing we should care about is making businesses as profitable as possible, and to hell with the human condition.

Maybe it's because I'm all too aware that we have the resources and the knowledge to make this a paradise on earth--but we never will, because we have so very, very little compassion for our fellow humans. I read and hear that in conservative rhetoric every day--and dear God, have I ever heard it from Trump and his followers.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

It's as if the ONLY thing we should care about is making businesses as profitable as possible, and to hell with the human condition.

Except that's a critique of capitalism, not conservatism. The struggles of the middle class show how badly our policies have managed capitalism, but the answer isn't necessarily "manage capitalism differently." Like you, I agree that we have the resources and knowledge to overcome the status quo. We didn't in the 1950s but we do now -- at least, I think we do. The fact that so many people are being left behind by automation and the rapidity of economic change should be a clarion call to re-examine our fundamental economic premise: you get a job, you work hard, you make a good living, the end. That's not possible if getting a job isn't even viable for an increasing share of our population.

I don't think capitalism is dead or dying, but I think we'll need a hybrid approach going forward. When the 2/3 of the population in the +/- 1SD can't keep up with the 1/6 of the population >1SD, not due to lack of effort but due to structural defects like "there simply aren't enough high-tech jobs" or "all the industrial labor jobs are now in China" then either we create a new system where it's okay for someone to not have a job, or we'll have a revolution. Expecting people to be okay with machines taking their jobs, and not providing an alternate path to survival, is a recipe for chaos.

I'm not sure whether we'll reach the point of revolution-inducing unemployment before the technological singularity anyway, so this may all be a moot point. The problem of humans needing to eat and sleep probably isn't going to be the first priority for a sentient superhuman AI. If it's going to happen, I'll almost certainly be alive to see it...

Quote: MathExtremist

I'm not sure whether we'll reach the point of revolution-inducing unemployment before the technological singularity anyway, so this may all be a moot point. The problem of humans needing to eat and sleep probably isn't going to be the first priority for a sentient superhuman AI. If it's going to happen, I'll almost certainly be alive to see it...

That's odd, my grandparents lived during the depression and they had nothing, no jobs, not much food, yet I don't recall Granny and Grandpa telling me stories of how they and the proletariat set out to expropriate the property of the bourgeoisie. But they were old fashioned, it was silly, but they believed in right and wrong and that being poor and hungry did not justify straying from their morals. Heck, they didn't even loot and steal. Old fools.

Quote: bobbartop

That's odd, my grandparents lived during the depression and they had nothing, no jobs, not much food, yet I don't recall Granny and Grandpa telling me stories of how they and the proletariat set out to expropriate the property of the bourgeoisie. But they were old fashioned, it was silly, but they believed in right and wrong and that being poor and hungry did not justify straying from their morals. Heck, they didn't even loot and steal. Old fools.

Maybe they weren't hungry enough.

Quote: MathExtremist

Except that's a critique of capitalism, not conservatism.

It's pretty hard to separate the two. Conservatism believes in many of the classic capitalist shibboleths: the perfection of the free market, the idea that markets are self-regulating and that therefore, government should just butt out (aka laissez-faire), the idea that wealth is underutilized if it isn't converted into capital. One thing that is real but is totally ignored by conventional conservative capitalism is the concept of negative externalities. Our businesses had to have their arms twisted to pay for such things as the pollution they cause and the strains on infrastructure they create. And now, Trump is bleating about reversing all that, and is putting people on his team who don;t believe in negative externalities at all. Conservatism has been treating as gospel a number of tenets of capitalism that just don't apply in the modern world.

The most obsolete myth in the working-class ethos is that you train for a job when you are young (either by going to college or climbing on the bottom rung at the local steel mill), that job sets you up for a comfortable existence for all your working life, and then you retire. Today's reality is that your job probably won't EXIST twenty or thirty years from now. We have to set things up so that that can be compensated for, but more than that, we have to train people to be aware that their jobs at the buggy whip factory or the 8-track tape maker or the Commodore computer assembly plant aren't going to last. Conservatism is doing just the opposite, though, claiming that all we have to do is twist China's arm or whatever, and those buggy whip jobs will magically reappear. It's a lie, a fraud, and a delusion.

What we need to do is devote educational resources to retraining Joe Sixpack when the steel mill shuts down. His skills could be used elsewhere. He might have to leave Dead Dog Hollow, where his pappy and grandpappy worked, but we can provide him with the means to do that. We should also get rid of the phraseology "jobs going overseas" or "losing jobs." Jobs can't be moved. They either exist or do not exist. What happens is that the market price of a person's labor slips downward. It's not anybody taking anything away or moving or stealing anything. It's a natural process of evolution. People need to be taught to enhance the market value of their labor when market forces devalue it. And we need to provide them with the resources to do that. But snarling at China or executing Mexicans isn't going to help with that.

I've said it before, but Hillary could have won in a landslide if she had just repurposed her "free college" initiative (which Joe Sixpack could not care less about) as a "free job retraining" program. She could have thus given Joe something concrete to latch onto rather than Trump's vague promises.

Quote: rxwine

Maybe they weren't hungry enough.

There's only one reason why someone would be in that kind of shape. And it's not drought, not poor soil, not bad weather. We've had all that in America and no one looks like that. Thanks to the profit motive.

Quote: bobbartop

Quote: rxwine

Maybe they weren't hungry enough.

There's only one reason why someone would be in that kind of shape. And it's not drought, not poor soil, not bad weather. We've had all that in America and no one looks like that. Thanks to the profit motive.

The last Russian famine appears to have been in 1932. So you're saying it was also profit for the last 80 years in Russia.

Quote: rxwine

Quote: bobbartop

Quote: rxwine

Maybe they weren't hungry enough.

There's only one reason why someone would be in that kind of shape. And it's not drought, not poor soil, not bad weather. We've had all that in America and no one looks like that. Thanks to the profit motive.

The last Russian famine appears to have been in 1932. So you're saying it was also profit for the last 80 years in Russia.

Not sure I understand exactly what your last sentence is saying. But the Ukraine was the "breadbasket of Europe". Stalin collectivised the farms, 20 million people starved. Simple.

In the 80s, they showed film of starving children in Ethiopia, with swollen bellies and flies buzzing around their heads. The cause? Supposedly it was drought. I remember the movie stars and the rock groups even had a concert to raise money for the starving children of Ethiopia. Of course, it was all a big lie. There's plenty of water in Ethiopia. Los Angeles was once a desert. The fact was that the leader of the country was a hardcore communist named Mengitsu. He had a huge statue of Lenin erected in Addis Ababa. That's why thousands starved to death in Ethiopia. Not because of lack of water, but because of Mengitsu. By the way, the soldiers were fat.

Joe. Bob.

Thank you both for stepping up, recognizing the problem, and raising the level of conversation to one of the best we've had, from one of the worst.

I really appreciate the intelligent discussion of real problems over tired rhetoric and name-calling.

And a special Thanks to Face for his very thoughtful posts. He said many things very well, and I think made a difference.

Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Sadly, 47% of the American people think that they did.

Many of us held our nose as we voted for Trump. 53% voted against Clinton. That would have been higher with a more comfortable candidate.