VIP membership option
Poll
 | 28 votes (36.84%) | ||
| | 35 votes (46.05%) | ||
| | 13 votes (17.1%) |
76 members have voted
July 2nd, 2013 at 12:02:38 PM
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It is no big secret I made a lot of people angry with writing and talking about the Revel promotion. Not that I'm apologizing, but I have an idea to address this problem before the next big juicy promotion comes along. My idea is to have a separate VIP section, perhaps on an entirely different site, where I would put my advice for promotions like the Mohegan Sun triple down and the Revel "you can't lose," which perhaps are debatably too good to just tell everybody about for free.
Another reason in favor is this site makes very little money and I would welcome any additional income from VIP dues, which might be $50 per year or so. Many have offered to pay me something for their use of the site, who had no intention of patronizing my advertiser. I appreciate these sentiments and this would give such people a way to support the site and get something extra back. I might try to do other special things for VIP members, like contests.
It is easy to see other pros and cons, but I'd like to read how you feel about it.
Another reason in favor is this site makes very little money and I would welcome any additional income from VIP dues, which might be $50 per year or so. Many have offered to pay me something for their use of the site, who had no intention of patronizing my advertiser. I appreciate these sentiments and this would give such people a way to support the site and get something extra back. I might try to do other special things for VIP members, like contests.
It is easy to see other pros and cons, but I'd like to read how you feel about it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 2nd, 2013 at 12:18:23 PM
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I feel this would be a legitimate option if you limited the amount of members and also perhaps had some kind of non-disclosure program with it. That may or may not be possible, but much of the work you do on here is work that casinos would pay you for. There is no reason why you should not get something back for your time and effort. As one who would not patronize your current advertiser, I only take from this site and would not be opposed to giving something back. Just my opinion.
July 2nd, 2013 at 12:22:56 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 2nd, 2013 at 12:34:00 PM
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I assume the Revel info you're talking about is burried somewhere in this thread:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/14322-revel-promotion-sounds-too-good-to-be-true/
I missed it because the thread didn't interest me at all past the initial announcement.
I don't play online - yet. If I did, Bovada would be my first choice for no reason other than my trust in you and your trust in them.
That said, I support whatever subscription program you come up with.
One suggestion: Make it monthly. People would be far more likely to sign up for $5/month than they would for the cheaper $50/year option. People don't want to be "locked in" or surprised by the renewal a year later.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/14322-revel-promotion-sounds-too-good-to-be-true/
I missed it because the thread didn't interest me at all past the initial announcement.
I don't play online - yet. If I did, Bovada would be my first choice for no reason other than my trust in you and your trust in them.
That said, I support whatever subscription program you come up with.
One suggestion: Make it monthly. People would be far more likely to sign up for $5/month than they would for the cheaper $50/year option. People don't want to be "locked in" or surprised by the renewal a year later.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 2nd, 2013 at 12:44:51 PM
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I don't think you've made anyone angry about Revel... the smoking part has been done to death though.
What you are referring to is a Hot Tips Section.... Pay "x" dollars a year and get bulletins from time to time, some of them just the name of the horse and others more analytical in style showing a freeze frame analysis of the horse's gait or something.
Well, go for it if you've a mind to, but I won't benefit from it so count me out on the x-dollar surcharge.
What you are referring to is a Hot Tips Section.... Pay "x" dollars a year and get bulletins from time to time, some of them just the name of the horse and others more analytical in style showing a freeze frame analysis of the horse's gait or something.
Well, go for it if you've a mind to, but I won't benefit from it so count me out on the x-dollar surcharge.
July 2nd, 2013 at 12:49:58 PM
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Wiz, this model will work if you can simultaneously get rid of the "DT Threads" in the VIP section at the same time. How about that for killing two birds with one stone?
Simply set a minimum amount of VIP member flags to any thread/posts that show up that are non-gaming related and presto, the thread and related posts will only show up in the non-VIP side of the site.
Then existing members here can go to the regular side of the site if they want all the non-gaming stuff and go to the VIP side of the site for Vegas/gaming only. I don't know about the programming side of this, but this may be the solution for not only your revenue issue but also to the DT site issue.
Also, I reiterate DJ's post, if I wanted to get online to gamble, Bovada would be my choice. I simply don't gamble online anymore.
Simply set a minimum amount of VIP member flags to any thread/posts that show up that are non-gaming related and presto, the thread and related posts will only show up in the non-VIP side of the site.
Then existing members here can go to the regular side of the site if they want all the non-gaming stuff and go to the VIP side of the site for Vegas/gaming only. I don't know about the programming side of this, but this may be the solution for not only your revenue issue but also to the DT site issue.
Also, I reiterate DJ's post, if I wanted to get online to gamble, Bovada would be my choice. I simply don't gamble online anymore.
July 2nd, 2013 at 1:05:21 PM
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You have to consider the chances that you will lose some of the churn that makes the site active by putting up pay walls. A pay wall around 'hot tips and math' might make sense. A pay wall around 'Vegas and gambling' may not, and you might lose the critical mass. It would be easy enough for anyone to throw up their own 'Vegas Gambling' site and replicate, so you have to consider what the value is for the members. In the free world, you are probably getting significant value from some posters based on their posting for free. If that value is hidden from the next newbies to sign up, you might slow down the traffic on the free side, which will slow down the premium sign ups.
How you resolve it for best value for yourself, Mr Wizard, I don't know.
How you resolve it for best value for yourself, Mr Wizard, I don't know.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
July 2nd, 2013 at 1:49:54 PM
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It's not a bad idea generally speaking, but i'm not sure if I would personally buck up for it though. I'm too poor to play the advantage play game right now.
To be honest, I do click on the bovada ad accidentally more than any other ad on the internet. It is placed perfectly, imo.
To be honest, I do click on the bovada ad accidentally more than any other ad on the internet. It is placed perfectly, imo.
July 2nd, 2013 at 1:56:48 PM
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Thanks for the comments thus far.
One thing I don't want to see is a VIP section dividing the forum. I don't want to see all the good stuff in VIP and the free section turn into a cesspool.
The way I view it is kind of like donating to public television/radio. It is a way to support something you enjoy, plus gives me a way to give really good tips on a limited basis. Note that future hot tips can't be promised.
I hesitate to take memberships on a monthly basis, because some may only pay for the one month when there is a hot tip.
One thing I don't want to see is a VIP section dividing the forum. I don't want to see all the good stuff in VIP and the free section turn into a cesspool.
The way I view it is kind of like donating to public television/radio. It is a way to support something you enjoy, plus gives me a way to give really good tips on a limited basis. Note that future hot tips can't be promised.
I hesitate to take memberships on a monthly basis, because some may only pay for the one month when there is a hot tip.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 2nd, 2013 at 1:59:44 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 2nd, 2013 at 2:11:23 PM
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I oppose the idea, but I selected I'm a bigot just because I thought it was funny.
If you were to do a premium service I'd suggest a newsletter format that is published online so that you can see that the IP addresses that access the material are the same as those that have purchase the material. Of course, that's still no guarantee the info won't be disseminated to non-paying freeloaders but it might reduce it some.
Personally, I wouldn't pay for such a service.
If you were to do a premium service I'd suggest a newsletter format that is published online so that you can see that the IP addresses that access the material are the same as those that have purchase the material. Of course, that's still no guarantee the info won't be disseminated to non-paying freeloaders but it might reduce it some.
Personally, I wouldn't pay for such a service.
July 2nd, 2013 at 2:16:41 PM
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Quote: WizardIt is no big secret I made a lot of people angry with writing and talking about the Revel promotion. Not that I'm apologizing, but I have an idea to address this problem before the next big juicy promotion comes along. My idea is to have a separate VIP section, perhaps on an entirely different site, where I would put my advice for promotions like the Mohegan Sun triple down and the Revel "you can't lose," which perhaps are debatably too good to just tell everybody about for free.
What if someone else puts the same advice in the open section - will you:
A) Let that person keep exposing the promotion, diluting the exclusivity of VIP information;
B) Delete their posts, so that however little AP info WoV provides now, it would have even less;
C) Move their thread into the VIP section, but it does mean you'll be charging for access to their work?
For the most part, I wonder if there is an estimate on by how many % points will the average exposure of +EV promotions be reduced, considering the number of AP boards where such advice is likely to be independently posted. WoV isn't even an AP-heavy board, it's a gambling board with occasional opportunist advantage seekers, the amount of AP information here is comparatively small as it is.
Really if all you plan to do is option A - just make sure that you personally aren't exposing +EV promotions, except for a fee - then it sounds more like a typical arrangement for a paid mailing list than a plan for a VIP section.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
July 2nd, 2013 at 2:37:33 PM
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Quote: WizardIt is no big secret I made a lot of people angry with writing and talking about the Revel promotion. Not that I'm apologizing, but I have an idea to address this problem before the next big juicy promotion comes along. My idea is to have a separate VIP section, perhaps on an entirely different site, where I would put my advice for promotions like the Mohegan Sun triple down and the Revel "you can't lose," which perhaps are debatably too good to just tell everybody about for free.
Another reason in favor is this site makes very little money and I would welcome any additional income from VIP dues, which might be $50 per year or so. Many have offered to pay me something for their use of the site, who had no intention of patronizing my advertiser. I appreciate these sentiments and this would give such people a way to support the site and get something extra back. I might try to do other special things for VIP members, like contests.
It is easy to see other pros and cons, but I'd like to read how you feel about it.
1.) In light of recent posts, I refuse to believe or accept that this Forum had anything to do with Revel pulling those VP machines. They're over there allegedly pulling Player's Club Cards and charging people for things that had been comped. Even players who lose!!! If any of this is true, any of it, Revel are simply Grade-A pieces of crap, nothing more or less...well, maybe less.
As you have stated, the Mohegan Sun promo went off without a hitch, but that is because they are clearly an organization who does what they say they will do.
On my first phone call to Revel, a week or so ago, I was specifically told not only that VP could be played, but that VP in all present denominations would be available. Revel Hotel is an organization of liars, charlatans and cheats.
2.) I would Administrate this separate site in exchange for a free Membership!
3.) I believe that, in order to maintain the quality of this Forum, any VIP posts that did not have to do specifically with a lucrative promotion would be moved back to WoV, because I don't think we would want anyone missing out on what they would usually get here.
4.) Stanford Wong used to have a subscriber Newsletter, I think, maybe you could just leave everything exactly the same and do a monthly newsletter to subscribers with special newsletters concerning promotions. For example, we could have the same thread on the Revel promotion, but your newsletter would have contained your math. Of course, would I then need to bust other Math someone posted here for free, such as Teliot?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 2nd, 2013 at 2:54:15 PM
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Quote: WizardThanks for the comments thus far.
One thing I don't want to see is a VIP section dividing the forum. I don't want to see all the good stuff in VIP and the free section turn into a cesspool.
Or even a cesspit...
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
July 2nd, 2013 at 4:00:48 PM
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Wiz - a monthly subscription for the entire site would not be a bad idea. You should be paid for your work. I wonder if a monthly fee would prevent casinos from subscribing and thus actually help the board help the subscribers?
July 2nd, 2013 at 4:03:55 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 2nd, 2013 at 4:41:58 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesCasino personnel peruse even the pay-for sites.
I'd be surprised to find that they didn't pay more attention to the pay for sites than they do the free ones.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 2nd, 2013 at 4:46:54 PM
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Quote: aceofspadesI wonder if a monthly fee would prevent casinos from subscribing and thus actually help the board help the subscribers?
I almost laughed at that. then i remembered how often when I'm sent into the bowels of the web to look for infomration, I'm told "No. Forget it," when I come accross pay sites.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
July 2nd, 2013 at 7:59:14 PM
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Quote: Wizard
Another reason in favor is this site makes very little money and I would welcome any additional income......
I would like to support the site, ala Public Radio but without the annoying Fund-raising weeks ! I would only suggest keeping it affordable and reasonable, so for me that sounds like something a little less than $ 50 per year. But that's just my 2 cents.
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
July 2nd, 2013 at 8:06:57 PM
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Before retiring as a DJ, I used to be a member of several DJ forums.Quote: Mission146I'd be surprised to find that they didn't pay more attention to the pay for sites than they do the free ones.
The one I spent most of my time on, where I saw the best conversations and valuable information, was the one I was paying to be a member of.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 2nd, 2013 at 8:35:52 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearBefore retiring as a DJ, I used to be a member of several DJ forums.Quote: Mission146I'd be surprised to find that they didn't pay more attention to the pay for sites than they do the free ones.
The one I spent most of my time on, where I saw the best conversations and valuable information, was the one I was paying to be a member of.
You retired? So, no more Reverend/DJ combo gigs?
It's probably true that even a small required payment would help the site by cutting out spam and scams. I'm sure some folks wouldn't pay $50/year for the VIP section. But a modest (like, $5 one-time) registration fee for the base site could help.
And, it's probably a very good idea to protect the content of the site in any case. Force people to log in to view threads, so that non-members can't view the site's content.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
July 2nd, 2013 at 8:40:46 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearBefore retiring as a DJ, I used to be a member of several DJ forums.Quote: Mission146I'd be surprised to find that they didn't pay more attention to the pay for sites than they do the free ones.
The one I spent most of my time on, where I saw the best conversations and valuable information, was the one I was paying to be a member of.
I'm not surprised, and that's why I think it would be the same with casinos monitoring sites. I don't know what these pay for sites get into, as I have never paid for any of them, but maybe some people think they are safe to mention specific houses with a flashing dealer, well, now the House knows about it. I just think it is a simple matter of, "You get what you pay for," which is something that all of us understand.
This Forum and WoO are certainly exceptions, of course, because they are worth far more than nothing, yet that is what we pay for them.
I still think a newsletter would be better than a separate Board/Forums, though. You could have a special letter for AP plays such as this one, and then your regular monthly letter.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 2nd, 2013 at 10:17:24 PM
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I believe if your goal is to stop what happened with the discussion about the Revel, a pay to enter barrier won't help. I think Randy Fine, Compton dancer consulting, and other people who do this for a living would be subscribed to the forum.
I am not opposed to paying $50 a year if it helps support the site, but it will not stop information from getting out to the public once written about.
I am not opposed to paying $50 a year if it helps support the site, but it will not stop information from getting out to the public once written about.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
July 3rd, 2013 at 12:12:39 AM
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How about every time a juicy promotion comes along a group of the serious pros can just take up a large collection of money and donate it to the site and swear you to secrecy.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
July 3rd, 2013 at 4:51:10 AM
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I was just thinking this about WoV. It would be a great idea, and I will pay for the service. Anything with a great value such as couponbooks from LVA or ACG I gladly pay for. To me it's a business investment so I am all for it.
Your FPDW optimal strategy site on WoO made me many real and theoretical dollars, and not to mention the comps I generated from gambling smartly. I've been able to stay in hotels I usually wouldn't pay for because of your information.
I think $50/yr is a fair price. If you could include it with a WoV shirt or something that would be awesome, but it's probably not economically feasible.
I have a RFB comp coming soon, so if you're interested in free food let me know and I will gladly hook you up, but then again you probably get that everywhere you go, however the option is still open. Thanks again for the odds!
Your FPDW optimal strategy site on WoO made me many real and theoretical dollars, and not to mention the comps I generated from gambling smartly. I've been able to stay in hotels I usually wouldn't pay for because of your information.
I think $50/yr is a fair price. If you could include it with a WoV shirt or something that would be awesome, but it's probably not economically feasible.
I have a RFB comp coming soon, so if you're interested in free food let me know and I will gladly hook you up, but then again you probably get that everywhere you go, however the option is still open. Thanks again for the odds!
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
July 3rd, 2013 at 5:13:18 AM
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Kinda.Quote: rdw4potusYou retired? So, no more Reverend/DJ combo gigs?
I no longer actively market my DJ services. I'll still offer it to my officiating clients, but will make sure they understand that I'm phasing that out. I only purchased a handful of songs in the last few years.
---
There's a forum at LVAdvice.com where a lot of members are former members of Anthony Curtis' forum and they have a lot of disdain for him.
LVAdvice.com has a two-level system where non-members can see only portions of the forum. The weird thing is, it's free to become a full member, but not a lot of people do it. A couple months ago they had a discussion about this problem.
So if they have a problem getting members for free, I'm wondering if the situation will be worse here if there is a fee.
Of course, here the content is better. Then again, some respected members already said they're not gonna pay....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 3rd, 2013 at 5:23:49 AM
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Quote: ParadigmI simply don't gamble online anymore.
Curious. Is there a reason for this? Age related deterioration in performance? Belief in cheating potential being high? Legal worries?
As to a VIP .... monthly or even quarterly probably would not work. Annual or don't bother.
Content would indeed be bi-modal. The hot tips and stone cold math section would be saleable but not really for all that much.
The Dregs and cold coffee grounds stuff should all go to DT anyway.
July 8th, 2013 at 2:52:27 PM
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Quote: djatcI was just thinking this about WoV. It would be a great idea, and I will pay for the service. Anything with a great value such as couponbooks from LVA or ACG I gladly pay for. To me it's a business investment so I am all for it.
Your FPDW optimal strategy site on WoO made me many real and theoretical dollars, and not to mention the comps I generated from gambling smartly. I've been able to stay in hotels I usually wouldn't pay for because of your information.
I think $50/yr is a fair price. If you could include it with a WoV shirt or something that would be awesome, but it's probably not economically feasible.
I have a RFB comp coming soon, so if you're interested in free food let me know and I will gladly hook you up, but then again you probably get that everywhere you go, however the option is still open. Thanks again for the odds!
+1
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
July 15th, 2013 at 8:58:59 PM
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I am a huge fan of both this site and the wizardofodds, both have helped me tremendously over the years. That said, I think that paid membership will divide the forum and may ultimately cost you traffic. The wizardofvegas is primiarly user-generated content, if the best user-generated content migrates to the VIP forum, then there will be little left to draw traffic to the free forums. I don't know your revenue breakdown (obviously), but making $50/year from a few people may not be worth losing the traffic from thousands.
Perhaps a donation button may work very well for you. I listen to "Five Hundy by Midnight" quite a bit and they seem to get about 5-7 "karma donations" per week, which I assume are typically in the $10-$50 range. Of course, you may need to call it something else because clearly karma doesn't affect our gambling outcomes. That said, I would not buy a VIP membership, but I would send you $20 via Paypal for my "Run Ahead of EV donation" before my annual trip. I feel like donating the cost of one's average bet is more than fair. Establishing a culture of those pre-trip donations may not be a bad way to raise money. Just my two cents.
As for Revel, several threads appeared on 2p2, as well as other sites about the same time that they appeared in this forum. Revel was advertising it, the Wizard certainly did not "ruin" the promotion. Correlation does not imply causality. If any argument were to be made it would be that the optimal strategy information for VP on the wizardofodds.com, is really what is most helpful in allowing people to maximize EV on this promotion, but wizardofodds does also not have a monopoloy on that information... so, again... it's not the Wizard's fault.
Perhaps a donation button may work very well for you. I listen to "Five Hundy by Midnight" quite a bit and they seem to get about 5-7 "karma donations" per week, which I assume are typically in the $10-$50 range. Of course, you may need to call it something else because clearly karma doesn't affect our gambling outcomes. That said, I would not buy a VIP membership, but I would send you $20 via Paypal for my "Run Ahead of EV donation" before my annual trip. I feel like donating the cost of one's average bet is more than fair. Establishing a culture of those pre-trip donations may not be a bad way to raise money. Just my two cents.
As for Revel, several threads appeared on 2p2, as well as other sites about the same time that they appeared in this forum. Revel was advertising it, the Wizard certainly did not "ruin" the promotion. Correlation does not imply causality. If any argument were to be made it would be that the optimal strategy information for VP on the wizardofodds.com, is really what is most helpful in allowing people to maximize EV on this promotion, but wizardofodds does also not have a monopoloy on that information... so, again... it's not the Wizard's fault.
July 15th, 2013 at 11:58:32 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesI'm sure a lot of people here would subscribe. Would sort of be like how it is over at bj21.com with the "free boards" and "green chip" membership. I don't know how popular the green chip is over there though. I'm sure KewlJ could give a hint as I'm not a paid member and I believe he is.
At bj21, the paid green chip section has rendered the free board, irrelevant in my opinion. There is rarely any significant discussion on the free board and most knowledgeable members won't even bother with it. Wiz has indicated this to be a concern for him.
I support myself from ap play, and searching for tidbits of useful info that can be benifical is my primary reason for participating on the sites that I do, including this one (although I do enjoy other discussions), so I am willing to pay such a membership fee. Just the networking ability with a few other AP's makes it worth the fee, and I would probably also pay such a fee here.
However, the concept that such a fee weeds out certain elements, like those from the other side.....well, I am not sure about that. That is not how it works on Wong's site. It is a known fact that membership includes those from the casino industry.
So my question to Wizard: Are you planning on excluding casino personnel from the VIP section? And if not, how would that change anything?
July 16th, 2013 at 6:18:52 AM
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I have only been a member here a short while compared to others so I do not know how much my opinion counts but.... I voted that I would not pay for a few reasons. I am a casual gambler and while not opposed to taking advantage of an opportunity if it presents itself; I would not pay for access to this information. I believe that the vast majority of the users on this board are probably in the same boat as me casual gamblers just looking to play fully educated and as smart as possible. I agree with others in this thread that I would not be opposed to making a small donation from time to time but would be very reluctant to be forced to pay for access to content you could probably find elsewhere for free. I come to this board for entertainment more then anything else.
My second reason for voting no is that this site is mostly all user generated content. I am sure that the Wiz is turned on to most of the promotions in Vegas but it is almost impossible to know about everything all over the country. If a regular member post an opportunity with the math and reasoning to support it in the free section will it get moved to the VIP section of which the user is not a member? I would be reluctant to post an opportunity if I thought I may lose access to the feedback.
To continue with the above line of reasoning some of the contributors are very knowledgeable and appear to share information freely and openly. It seems like it is a slippery slope whereas users may begin requesting small payments for bringing good information to the table that is not available to the public. I am not saying that it will happen but it may be a way for someone to supplement the fee to the VIP site. This could be avoided completely if it is only things that the Wiz discovers but surely things will be missed outside of Vegas.
My second reason for voting no is that this site is mostly all user generated content. I am sure that the Wiz is turned on to most of the promotions in Vegas but it is almost impossible to know about everything all over the country. If a regular member post an opportunity with the math and reasoning to support it in the free section will it get moved to the VIP section of which the user is not a member? I would be reluctant to post an opportunity if I thought I may lose access to the feedback.
To continue with the above line of reasoning some of the contributors are very knowledgeable and appear to share information freely and openly. It seems like it is a slippery slope whereas users may begin requesting small payments for bringing good information to the table that is not available to the public. I am not saying that it will happen but it may be a way for someone to supplement the fee to the VIP site. This could be avoided completely if it is only things that the Wiz discovers but surely things will be missed outside of Vegas.
July 16th, 2013 at 6:32:25 AM
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Thanks for all the continued comments. I'm taking all points of view under advisement. At this point I'm leaning against the idea.
No. If I had such a rule and casino personnel wanted to join, they would just lie about being casino personnel.
Quote: kewljSo my question to Wizard: Are you planning on excluding casino personnel from the VIP section? And if not, how would that change anything?
No. If I had such a rule and casino personnel wanted to join, they would just lie about being casino personnel.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 16th, 2013 at 8:03:53 AM
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To be honest, if one knows other forums that cater to the VP player, much, if not most of information that you are going to release is already out there for free.Quote: WizardThanks for all the continued comments. I'm taking all points of view under advisement. At this point I'm leaning against the idea.
No. If I had such a rule and casino personnel wanted to join, they would just lie about being casino personnel.
July 16th, 2013 at 9:18:07 AM
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I also listen to Five Hundy. In fact, I recently sent in a Karma Donation.Quote: deedubbsPerhaps a donation button may work very well for you. I listen to "Five Hundy by Midnight" quite a bit and they seem to get about 5-7 "karma donations" per week, which I assume are typically in the $10-$50 range. Of course, you may need to call it something else because clearly karma doesn't affect our gambling outcomes. That said, I would not buy a VIP membership, but I would send you $20 via Paypal for my "Run Ahead of EV."
They also provide an Amazon link that gives them a small piece of all purchases from people that use the link. I purchased sound canceling headphones last year using thier link....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 16th, 2013 at 4:52:32 PM
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Personally it's a very similar question to whether people are prepared to buy a book on "Winning at Blackjack", "Strategies for Pai Gow Tiles" etc.
Hypothetically if I wanted to become a serious poker player I would probably put the time (and money) into learning the game by reading books etc. - to me that would be an investment with a hopeful return. Similarly when I learnt bridge I bought a few books but learnt most techniques by playing, also good pairs have their own complicated bidding systems which require a lot of work to develop.
One of the important things about the site/forum is that it is a well known reference point for many people, including casinos, to find out more about their favourite games. Where there is skill involved, such as strategies on bets or plays to make, then more knowledge can be of value.
As an Abba fan I pay a subscription to two fans clubs and correspondingly receive newsletters and meet people at annual events. Personally I can't see the same benefit, especially as I'm in the UK, of knowing the ins and outs of the latest Vegas, Poker Machines, etc. and would be unable to make any of the meetings in Vegas. Luckily, admittedly using infinite deck for Blackjack, I am able to analyse most games (except Texas or multi card poker variants), and am happy to contribute my tuppence of knowledge on the UK trends and provide answers on some of the forums (assuming it doesn't take me ages to work things out).
I can certainly see a benefit for serious gamblers, the industry (e.g. games creators, software writers) or casinos to have a fee-based "behind closed doors" forum where they can freely discuss sensitive matters, latest trends and developments, analysis of new games and +EV plays. It seems the UK casino industry already has trade bodies (http://www.casinooperatorsassociation.org.uk/, http://www.nci-forum.co.uk), and perhaps other jurisdictions should have similar ideas.
Hypothetically if I wanted to become a serious poker player I would probably put the time (and money) into learning the game by reading books etc. - to me that would be an investment with a hopeful return. Similarly when I learnt bridge I bought a few books but learnt most techniques by playing, also good pairs have their own complicated bidding systems which require a lot of work to develop.
One of the important things about the site/forum is that it is a well known reference point for many people, including casinos, to find out more about their favourite games. Where there is skill involved, such as strategies on bets or plays to make, then more knowledge can be of value.
As an Abba fan I pay a subscription to two fans clubs and correspondingly receive newsletters and meet people at annual events. Personally I can't see the same benefit, especially as I'm in the UK, of knowing the ins and outs of the latest Vegas, Poker Machines, etc. and would be unable to make any of the meetings in Vegas. Luckily, admittedly using infinite deck for Blackjack, I am able to analyse most games (except Texas or multi card poker variants), and am happy to contribute my tuppence of knowledge on the UK trends and provide answers on some of the forums (assuming it doesn't take me ages to work things out).
I can certainly see a benefit for serious gamblers, the industry (e.g. games creators, software writers) or casinos to have a fee-based "behind closed doors" forum where they can freely discuss sensitive matters, latest trends and developments, analysis of new games and +EV plays. It seems the UK casino industry already has trade bodies (http://www.casinooperatorsassociation.org.uk/, http://www.nci-forum.co.uk), and perhaps other jurisdictions should have similar ideas.
July 16th, 2013 at 6:51:38 PM
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I am opposed to sectioning off part of the website to VIP members. I think that the life blood of any website is in attracting new people, having them find value here, return periodically, and possibly become contributors to the site. All of us were newbies once and have been entertained as well as educated by those who had already been here a while. (Many thanks to all of you btw. ) I fear that if the new never interacted with the old, the site would eventually turn into an exclusive club that would eventually dwindle away because we would grow tired of hearing the same opinions and stories over and over.
In order to generate more revenue and add something new, I would suggest a "tip jar" that could be used to show appreciation to the Wizard for providing the quality service and knowledge this site affords them. Perhaps it could be coordinated with Bovada in a way that could add something fun to the site. For example, as the tip jar reaches threshold amounts, Bovada freeplay could be given away to one of the contributors to the jar. ($50 or $100 freeplay coupon when the jar reaches $500 or $1000 or something.)
In order to generate more revenue and add something new, I would suggest a "tip jar" that could be used to show appreciation to the Wizard for providing the quality service and knowledge this site affords them. Perhaps it could be coordinated with Bovada in a way that could add something fun to the site. For example, as the tip jar reaches threshold amounts, Bovada freeplay could be given away to one of the contributors to the jar. ($50 or $100 freeplay coupon when the jar reaches $500 or $1000 or something.)
September 2nd, 2013 at 9:09:49 AM
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I don't post here often as there are plenty of people around here smarter than me, but I do frequent these forums and of course Wizard of Odds as well. I've often wanted to contribute to your sites as I'm not comfortable gambling online until we have some real legislation on it. I was part of the whole "Black Friday" thing, and I'm still waiting for my check on that. I've no doubt Bovada is a fine operation, but it just isn't time.
All that said, I'd consider paying a fee for VIP access of some kind, but I think many of the possible negatives brought up before are legitimate.
I love the idea of a "Donate" button of some kind, I'd jump on that. It also allows people (like me) who come and go to pay on an "as needed" basis. Right now I'm on the site all the time in preparation for my upcoming trip to Vegas, but I sometimes go months between visits. I'd be donating larger sums more often now, and less when I'm using the site less. How many others would voluntarily keep to that kind of an "honor system" is of course questionable.
Just my 2 cents.
All that said, I'd consider paying a fee for VIP access of some kind, but I think many of the possible negatives brought up before are legitimate.
I love the idea of a "Donate" button of some kind, I'd jump on that. It also allows people (like me) who come and go to pay on an "as needed" basis. Right now I'm on the site all the time in preparation for my upcoming trip to Vegas, but I sometimes go months between visits. I'd be donating larger sums more often now, and less when I'm using the site less. How many others would voluntarily keep to that kind of an "honor system" is of course questionable.
Just my 2 cents.
September 2nd, 2013 at 12:03:20 PM
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Quote: skrbornevryminI am opposed to sectioning off part of the website to VIP members.
I understand that. How 'bout "sponsors" like Public Television ? I would sponsor at the $ 25 "green chip" level. I am quite sure that the advice I have gotten on this website and the practice games at WOO has earned/saved me at least $ 25. So my point is that I don't need any special access or treatment, I'd just like to help support this website.
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
September 2nd, 2013 at 12:13:14 PM
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My feeing, Mike, is that you could have a better advertising contract. Right now, Bodog is your only sponsor on WoV, and I think it would be quite possible to really get more value out of ad revenue. Your Google searches come up near the top of the list, and you get plenty of visitors.
My thinking is that you renogiate with Bodog for higher money or disassociate WoV with WoO (if possible), and start filling up this site with more ads which will my get you more revenue.
As a forum site, this place is extremely clean with very little ads and I think a few more advertisements will help pay for the site.
And as my vote, as a frequenter here, I love this site, but I'm a cheap bastard when it comes to online entertainment, and I probably belong over on DT since the majority of my posting is non-gambling. Note however that the biggest threads on this site are generally non-gambling, whether it be HB, gun control, etc, so i think the non-gambling BS enhances the site as a diversion, but that's just me.
My thinking is that you renogiate with Bodog for higher money or disassociate WoV with WoO (if possible), and start filling up this site with more ads which will my get you more revenue.
As a forum site, this place is extremely clean with very little ads and I think a few more advertisements will help pay for the site.
And as my vote, as a frequenter here, I love this site, but I'm a cheap bastard when it comes to online entertainment, and I probably belong over on DT since the majority of my posting is non-gambling. Note however that the biggest threads on this site are generally non-gambling, whether it be HB, gun control, etc, so i think the non-gambling BS enhances the site as a diversion, but that's just me.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
September 4th, 2013 at 9:08:28 AM
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I would do 25 bucks. The site is more of something to do for me and I enjoy it. I don't have the best advice for gambling and only have my personal experiences to share. I also stick to off topic content when commenting most of the time and I think I have a few Hotel related posts. I've picked up some advice here that I think will improved my odds of winning.
My suggestion are affiliate programs to help support the site. Rental car, airlines, travel sites, and even hotels have these programs. You might be able to get discount coupons you can advertise in a scrolling banner. Anything Vegas related. Maybe throw in a Walmart, Amazon and eBay. I've never sold a car, but I still get the occasional 40 dollars check every few years.
I've provided links to this and the Wizard of Odds site on my facebook page in support of this community. One day it will be top 10 on the "big board" list.
EDIT: You might want to check out the thumbnail it adds to facebook when your links are post and shared on facebook. If you can control them, you put up an image you want. I was given 3 to choose from for the Wizard of Odds site. Your sponsor Bovada, a colorful shot of part of the word odds and something else I can't seem to remember. This site does not produce a thumbnail.
My suggestion are affiliate programs to help support the site. Rental car, airlines, travel sites, and even hotels have these programs. You might be able to get discount coupons you can advertise in a scrolling banner. Anything Vegas related. Maybe throw in a Walmart, Amazon and eBay. I've never sold a car, but I still get the occasional 40 dollars check every few years.
I've provided links to this and the Wizard of Odds site on my facebook page in support of this community. One day it will be top 10 on the "big board" list.
EDIT: You might want to check out the thumbnail it adds to facebook when your links are post and shared on facebook. If you can control them, you put up an image you want. I was given 3 to choose from for the Wizard of Odds site. Your sponsor Bovada, a colorful shot of part of the word odds and something else I can't seem to remember. This site does not produce a thumbnail.
Buffering...
September 10th, 2013 at 9:37:23 AM
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I don't think it is necessarily a bad idea. Maybe something like 25 dollars a year would be easier for some people to take, even though they will probably make way more from your tips.
I would hope maybe if you have a smaller more private section, people would be more willing to open up and not have as much fear of helping people lest their info gets exploited and they lose their "spots".
Also maybe give out free VIP memberships to people who contribute to the site. People who freely offer tips to help others or people who provide reviews on casinos/hotels. I was looking through some of the list earlier and some of the reviews are from 2009/2010. The Quad review is still of the Imperial Palace. Could be a nice incentive to get the site updated in certain spots.
I would hope maybe if you have a smaller more private section, people would be more willing to open up and not have as much fear of helping people lest their info gets exploited and they lose their "spots".
Also maybe give out free VIP memberships to people who contribute to the site. People who freely offer tips to help others or people who provide reviews on casinos/hotels. I was looking through some of the list earlier and some of the reviews are from 2009/2010. The Quad review is still of the Imperial Palace. Could be a nice incentive to get the site updated in certain spots.
September 10th, 2013 at 12:55:56 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesI'm sure a lot of people here would subscribe. Would sort of be like how it is over at bj21.com with the "free boards" and "green chip" membership. I don't know how popular the green chip is over there though. I'm sure KewlJ could give a hint as I'm not a paid member and I believe he is.
Quote: kewljAt bj21, the paid green chip section has rendered the free board, irrelevant in my opinion. There is rarely any significant discussion on the free board and most knowledgeable members won't even bother with it. Wiz has indicated this to be a concern for him.
I am also a subscriber of the green chip bj21.com section, and agree with kewlj that the free board is pretty desolate. Occasionally a regular will pop in to answer some n00b question, but it's not common.
Quote: Mission146I don't know what these pay for sites get into, as I have never paid for any of them, but maybe some people think they are safe to mention specific houses with a flashing dealer, well, now the House knows about it.
On the subject of information flow, the above is absolutely not how it works. Even the green chip members at bj21.com are incredibly tight-lipped about potential opportunities, since it's their lifeblood. No one's going to give up specific flashing dealers or even specific casinos where there are flashing dealers, and if a newbie does so, he will immediately be pounced upon and the admins will probably delete the post.
The subscription fee you pay to Wong is mostly about the wealth of information from the past archives and the present posts, which is less about specific opportunities and more about how to exploit generic opportunities, and the bleeding edge in AP techniques. Although even there, the information is constrained. You're also paying for the networking opportunities. Hell, you're paying for the potential that Blackjack HoF member and legend Stanford Wong will actually respond to you personally sometimes (it's pretty cool, IMO).
Anyway, on to the general topic.
I voted "Oppose" but I would strongly consider paying if the option were available, just because I find the discussion here useful and I value even the limited connections I have made.
I echo the other comments about setting up a "donate" button, as well as looking in to affiliate links and potentially additional advertising. I understand that Bovada pays a premium to be the sole advertiser, so it's a cost/benefit calculation for you and your accountant, really.
P.S. Hi everyone! It's been too long.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
September 10th, 2013 at 1:00:51 PM
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Welcome Back Aces. I have not voted yet. Mixed feelings. Free advice is always worth the price.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
September 10th, 2013 at 2:35:42 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
September 10th, 2013 at 3:17:14 PM
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Thanks for all the continued comments. I've been leaning more against a paid membership option. I'm not crazy about the "donate" button either, as I don't think it will bring in much, and don't want to feel obligated to anyone who makes a donation.
In other words, I would like to give back something for helping to support the site.
What do you think of this idea. A Wizard donation auction. I would put on eBay various things I don't really need, as much gambling related as possible, and promote the auction here. Hopefully those wanting to support the site would be generous in their bidding.
2013 has been an absolutely awful year for me financially. I just found out that of all the money I lost in Cyprus I won't be getting a penny back. The media has been reporting account holders would have to take a 52.5% "haircut" about 100,000 Euros, but my money was in the weaker Laiki Bank, and I had to take a 100% haircut. Bovada revenue is down 55% on top of that. Still, I make more than most people, and have a lot to be thankful for, but I need to turn things around.
In other words, I would like to give back something for helping to support the site.
What do you think of this idea. A Wizard donation auction. I would put on eBay various things I don't really need, as much gambling related as possible, and promote the auction here. Hopefully those wanting to support the site would be generous in their bidding.
2013 has been an absolutely awful year for me financially. I just found out that of all the money I lost in Cyprus I won't be getting a penny back. The media has been reporting account holders would have to take a 52.5% "haircut" about 100,000 Euros, but my money was in the weaker Laiki Bank, and I had to take a 100% haircut. Bovada revenue is down 55% on top of that. Still, I make more than most people, and have a lot to be thankful for, but I need to turn things around.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 10th, 2013 at 3:23:19 PM
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I like the auction idea. Sounds like a winner for all concerned.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
September 10th, 2013 at 3:31:57 PM
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Quote: Wizard
What do you think of this idea. A Wizard donation auction. I would put on eBay various things I don't really need, as much gambling related as possible, and promote the auction here. Hopefully those wanting to support the site would be generous in their bidding.
Not a bad idea, though I agree keep it gambling and Vegas related. Another idea for you is that maybe you could link to your own hotel-booking site. I have seen them for sale on Flippa. No idea if it would work or not but you could put an ad saying, "support WOV, book here" or something. No idea how well it would work, just spit balling an idea or two.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
September 10th, 2013 at 3:39:29 PM
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Quote: AZDuffmanAnother idea for you is that maybe you could link to your own hotel-booking site. I have seen them for sale on Flippa. No idea if it would work or not but you could put an ad saying, "support WOV, book here" or something. No idea how well it would work, just spit balling an idea or two.
Actually, in the very early days of this site I had an ad for a hotel booking service. Total amount of revenue I saw -- $0. Granted, I tried it for only about a couple months, and we didn't have nearly the traffic we have now.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 10th, 2013 at 4:13:24 PM
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I worked for an internet gaming site back in the 90's. The site sold "premium" memberships and one of the features of the premium membership was chat and private message board access to the owner. The "Staff" answered all sorts of issues/emails/questions/complaints, but if you were a premium member, you got to the boss with no middle man.
Obviously you don't have the technical issues like a gaming site does, but the private message board/forum section feature as well as live chat room access periodically could be two features that would add value to a premium membership.
ZCore13
Obviously you don't have the technical issues like a gaming site does, but the private message board/forum section feature as well as live chat room access periodically could be two features that would add value to a premium membership.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
September 10th, 2013 at 4:17:13 PM
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Quote: Zcore13I worked for an internet gaming site back in the 90's. The site sold "premium" memberships and one of the features of the premium membership was chat and private message board access to the owner. The "Staff" answered all sorts of issues/emails/questions/complaints, but if you were a premium member, you got to the boss with no middle man.
I'm afraid if the "staff" didn't pay much attention to the freeloader section it would become a cesspool.
How about selling indulgences? Like $10 per usage of profanity, $20 for a personal insult, and $50 to try to sell something?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
