Vegas shutting down again rumor
Quote: darkozThat's not correct in my experience.
Not sure how it works everywhere but in NY you get a voucher only good at the cashier but she can tell if you actually won over $1200.
For example if you wagered $1400 on Banker in Baccarat and got a tie you would receive a jackpot voucher for $1400 but not a W2G when cashing it
Are you saying you don't get a W2G when you cash in the jackpot voucher? That would be news to me.
Is that a lottery location as opposed to a casino location? Maybe they are different.
Example 1: $500 bet and subtracted from your balance, win $500, $1000 added to your balance. No tax form in either casino because the bet itself doesn't count towards the tax form.
Example 2: $1000 bet and subtracted from your balance, win $1000, $2000 added to your balance. No tax form in regular casino because the bet itself doesn't count towards the tax form. In the lottery location you won more than $600 but the bet itself doesn't count so your tax form mentions $1000 instead of $2000.
Example 3: $1500 bet and subtracted from your balance, win $1500, $3000 added to your balance. There is a tax form in regular casino but the bet itself doesn't count so your tax form mentions $1500 instead of $3000.
Example 4: No lottery location would have stadium table games because there's no network bingo card involved.
Quote: ChumpChangeLottery location would have a $600 threshold, and a regular casino location would have a $1200 threshold. There's confusion over whether your original bet when it's paid back to you counts as a taxable win. Your machine would note you won your bet plus your 1:1 winnings and give you a tax form on your bet itself. I'm sure if I was nearby somebody arguing this at a casino with casino management I might be backed off just for opening my mouth into the conversation.
Example 1: $500 bet and subtracted from your balance, win $500, $1000 added to your balance. No tax form in either casino because the bet itself doesn't count towards the tax form.
Example 2: $1000 bet and subtracted from your balance, win $1000, $2000 added to your balance. No tax form in regular casino because the bet itself doesn't count towards the tax form. In the lottery location you won more than $600 but the bet itself doesn't count so your tax form mentions $1000 instead of $2000.
Example 3: $1500 bet and subtracted from your balance, win $1500, $3000 added to your balance. There is a tax form in regular casino but the bet itself doesn't count so your tax form mentions $1500 instead of $3000.
Example 4: No lottery location would have stadium table games because there's no network bingo card involved.
So chump change that's pretty much what I find.
So bet $1400 on Banker, that's$1400 deducted,
Tie outcome, $1400 is added back but you should receive no tax form.
It's clear there was no win and if they taxed you on that no one would play over a certain amount
Quote: darkoz
It's clear there was no win and if they taxed you on that no one would play over a certain amount
In Nevada and most states there does not need to be a net profit to get a W2G. If you bet $1200 and get your money back a W2G is issued (on machines).
Quote: DRichIn Nevada and most states there does not need to be a net profit to get a W2G. If you bet $1200 and get your money back a W2G is issued (on machines).
If I bet $2,000 on a horse and the horse scratched, does my $2,000 refund generate a W2G?
The Beginners Guide for Betting Horse Racing | Betting Guide
https://www.twinspires.com/betting-guides/beginners-guide-betting-horse-racing
Quote: DRichIn Nevada and most states there does not need to be a net profit to get a W2G. If you bet $1200 and get your money back a W2G is issued (on machines).
Perhaps.
I have noticed in AC E-games have extremely low max bets. Some as low as $100.
And that's on the congregate of all bets.
That might be to avoid any W2G hassles
you were in the news business
casino mogul Sheldon Adelson bought the "Las Vegas Review Journal" newspaper
this newspaper is a main source of info about casinos in Vegas
do you think he will allow the paper to be objective in its coverage and if necessary criticize the casinos?
or do you you think he will see to it that the news reported by this paper is shaded to show only favorable coverage of the casinos?
how about if there was unfavorable news about the casino he owns or controls - the Venetian - would he or his surrogates allow it to be published unfiltered?
anybody else too - to answer this
Quote: billryanIf I bet $2,000 on a horse and the horse scratched, does my $2,000 refund generate a W2G?
Yes, if you bet it on a slot machine.
Quote: DRichYes, if you bet it on a slot machine.
What about a kiosk?
Quote: billryanWhat about a kiosk?
No, a kiosk is not a gaming device so it doesn't apply.
Quote: billryanIf I bet $2,000 on a horse and the horse scratched, does my $2,000 refund generate a W2G?
absolutely not at a parimutuel track
they have computers and know that a refund is not a win
Quote: ChumpChangeNot paying attention to horse racing, but don't people bet $2 on the horses?
some, but very few - not since inflation caused the value of $2.00 to be so much less than when it was originally installed as the minimum bet at racetracks
you can bet as little as $1.00 at tracks if there is a box or part wheel on an exotic bet but the combinations add up and the total cost will be much more than $2.00
there are thousands who will bet hundreds on a single race and a few who will bet thousands on a single race
Quote: lilredroosterabsolutely not at a parimutuel track
they have computers and know that a refund is not a win
some, but very few - not since inflation caused the value of $2.00 to be so much less than when it was originally installed as the minimum bet at a racetrack
there are thousands who will bet hundreds on a single race and a few who will bet thousands on a single race
My wife is still a $2 bettor and she looks at me with disdain as I bet $5 or $10. She also understands that the track takes out 18%-22%.
Quote: DRichShe also understands that the track takes out 18%-22%.
overseas books offer generous rebates
the legal U.S. books, aware that they were losing out to these books, now also have various different kinds of promos that reduce the effect of the takeout
the best promos are offered when you first sign up
Quote: lilredroosteroverseas books offer generous rebates
the legal U.S. books, aware that they were losing out to these books, now also have various different kinds of promos that reduce the effect of the takeout
the best promos are offered when you first sign up
In our case we only go to the track(Del Mar) once a year. My annual horse racing budget is less than $100. I spend a lot more on renting a table, buying food and alcohol than I do on betting the races. We just enjoy sitting in the sun and screaming for our horses to win $5.
Quote: DRichIn our case we only go to the track(Del Mar) once a year.
Del Mar is a beautiful track
as is Santa Anita, Saratoga and Gulfstream
they are among the very few tracks that will still draw significant numbers in live attendance
last year I was at Saratoga on a Wednesday - it was jammed
"$600 or more in gambling winnings and the payout is at least 300 times the amount of the wager (except winnings from bingo, keno, and slot machines);
$1,200 or more in gambling winnings from bingo or slot machines;
The winnings (reduced by the wager or buy-in) are more than $5,000 from a poker tournament;
$1,500 or more in proceeds (the amount of winnings less the amount of the wager) from keno; OR
Any gambling winnings subject to federal income tax withholding."
the very last line:
"Any gambling winnings subject to federal income tax withholding."
this seems to suggest that the house has some discretion as to whether or not they issue one
can't see any other way to interpret this
https://support.taxslayer.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015701772-What-is-a-W-2G-#:~:text=TaxSlayer%20Support-,What%20is%20a%20W%2D2G%3F,keno%2C%20and%20slot%20machines)%3B
Quote: lilredroosterAlan:
you were in the news business
casino mogul Sheldon Adelson bought the "Las Vegas Review Journal" newspaper
this newspaper is a main source of info about casinos in Vegas
do you think he will allow the paper to be objective in its coverage and if necessary criticize the casinos?
or do you you think he will see to it that the news reported by this paper is shaded to show only favorable coverage of the casinos?
how about if there was unfavorable news about the casino he owns or controls - the Venetian - would he or his surrogates allow it to be published unfiltered?
anybody else too - to answer this
The RJ is very careful to post a disclaimer on every story regarding LVS that the paper is owned by Sheldon's family.
I would hope that they would be objective. I am not privy to their editorial decisions.
Quote: lilredroosterDel Mar is a beautiful track
as is Santa Anita, Saratoga and Gulfstream
they are among the very few tracks that will still draw significant numbers in live attendance
last year I was at Saratoga on a Wednesday - it was jammed
Belmont is a fantastic way to spend an afternoon. Not so much Aqueduct. Saratoga always struck me as a social outing that had horses as opposed to a racetrack. It's an excuse for New Yorkers to spend time in the country.
Quote: AlanMendelsonRed Rock has a new version of Bubble Craps. Instead of one pair of dice that everyone bets on, now you have your own individual pair of dice at your station. You play at your own pace.
No one is playing it.
Not surprised. Craps is a very social game.
Quote: lilredroosterthis, according to taxslayer.com is what should generate a W2G:
"$600 or more in gambling winnings and the payout is at least 300 times the amount of the wager (except winnings from bingo, keno, and slot machines);
$1,200 or more in gambling winnings from bingo or slot machines;
The winnings (reduced by the wager or buy-in) are more than $5,000 from a poker tournament;
$1,500 or more in proceeds (the amount of winnings less the amount of the wager) from keno; OR
Any gambling winnings subject to federal income tax withholding."
the very last line:
"Any gambling winnings subject to federal income tax withholding."
this seems to suggest that the house has some discretion as to whether or not they issue one
The instructions for Form W-2G specify what is meant by "subject to federal income tax withholding":
There is a 24% withholding if the win is $5000 or more from a sweepstakes, lottery, or betting pool. There are also other conditions where the 24% applies, but those already force a W-2G to be generated.
Don't forget about the $10,000 "RICO rule."
Also, the instructions specify when the casino is "required" to issue a W-2G. Presumably, it can "voluntarily" issue one any time it wants.
The sources you provided before did not support whatsoever your claim that "Australia was moving towards banning cash."
If cash is being banned and confiscated, I definitely would like to know about it!
https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/asset-forfeiture-abuse
Police abuse of civil asset forfeiture laws has shaken our nation’s conscience. Civil forfeiture allows police to seize — and then keep or sell — any property they allege is involved in a crime. Owners need not ever be arrested or convicted of a crime for their cash, cars, or even real estate to be taken away permanently by the government.
Forfeiture was originally presented as a way to cripple large-scale criminal enterprises by diverting their resources. But today, aided by deeply flawed federal and state laws, many police departments use forfeiture to benefit their bottom lines, making seizures motivated by profit rather than crime-fighting. For people whose property has been seized through civil asset forfeiture, legally regaining such property is notoriously difficult and expensive, with costs sometimes exceeding the value of the property. With the total value of property seized increasing every year, calls for reform are growing louder, and CLRP is at the forefront of organizations seeking to rein in the practice.
But in recent years the cases and laws have actually moved in the direction of requiring a criminal conviction before forfeiture may become final.
At least 16 states now require convictions for forfeiture to take place:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2020/01/28/new-jersey-is-now-the-16th-state-to-require-convictions-for-civil-forfeiture/#2aaa6e9677fd
Before New Jersey, 15 required it:
https://ij.org/activism/legislation/civil-forfeiture-legislative-highlights/
And then for example, consider Honeycutt v. United States (2017), when the Supreme Court interpreted a congressional statute to mean that forfeiture is limited to “tainted” assets, meaning property that was directly or indirectly obtained as a result of the crime.
14. New Jersey (excludes cash over $1,000, and all other property valued at over $10,000)
So you could win a car at the casino and the cops could steal it from you before you finish paying tax on it because the mail has failed at the IRS.
OptimaTax Relief commercial: The IRS can seize and freeze things.
For NY:
Part PP – Asset Forfeiture
Purpose:
This bill would amend the Civil Practice Rules and Law as it relates to Civil Asset
Forfeiture.
Summary of Provisions and Statement in Support:
This bill would reform the current Civil Asset Forfeiture System to provide a path for
increased public trust in the justice system.
First, this legislation will require all funds seized via asset forfeiture to be deposited into
an escrow account managed by professionals with oversight of the authorities. This
process will ensure that only eligible property is seized and, when the property is
forfeited, all proceeds are dispersed in accordance with the law.
Second, claiming authorities will be required to report demographic data – such as
race, ethnicity, age, and gender – on the individuals who have had their property seized.
This will enable the State to further study the issue of civil asset forfeiture, identify any
underlying biases in the process, and take further corrective action if warranted.
Finally, when authorities expend any of the seized assets to purchase equipment or
fund programs, they will be required to record the purpose, bringing transparency and
accountability to the criminal justice system.
These measures will ensure that New Yorkers accused of crimes are considered
innocent until proven guilty, both in practice as well as in law.
Budget Implications:
Enactment of this bill is necessary to implement the FY2020 Executive Budget.
Effective Date:
This bill would take effect on 180 days after the bill has become a law and shall apply to
crimes which were committed on or after such date.
No need to hide the money... its clean if you're a pro.
June 1, 2019
Schedule C for gambling income where to show loss?
https://ttlc.intuit.com/community/taxes/discussion/schedule-c-for-gambling-income-where-to-show-loss/01/164024
If you are a professional gambler, you would report your winnings as Self-Employment Income, and your gambling losses (but only up your winnings) as Schedule C business expenses. You could claim them under miscellaneous business expenses, with the description and the amount. On the screen Here's your Business info, click Add Expenses for this Work and scroll down to miscellaneous expenses.You could also deduct other expenses such as travel on your Schedule C. See this IRS Memorandum and this article about professional gambler status.
If you aren't a professional gambler, report your gambling winnings on either W-2G or 1099-MISC (prize winnings) and your gambling losses (but only up to your winnings) as a miscellaneous expense on Schedule A, if you can itemize deductions.
I never wanted to take a check from the casino cuz I'm afraid they could put stop payment on the check once they realized you were an advantage player and took advantage of them. No doubt, you would probably win your case with gaming and eventually they might pay, but who wants to go through all that hassle?Quote: AlanMendelsonWouldn't a professional AP take a check because they're already filing a Schedule C ?
No need to hide the money... its clean if you're a pro.
--------------------------------
Every state I've ever been in has issued a W-2g for jackpots of $1,200 or more on any machine. If you were to bet $10,000 on let's say a electronic roulette machine and you only got back $1,200, that would still generate a w-2g.
Quote: AxelWolfI never wanted to take a check from the casino cuz I'm afraid they could put stop payment on the check once they realized you were an advantage player and took advantage of them.
Really?
Do you really think that if you got so far as to get a check that they would stop payment on it?
At least say something realistic. Like the casino files bankruptcy before you get out the door and the check is no good. LOL
Quote: ChumpChangeMaybe I could build up a $250K front money balance at a single casino each year and cash out on New Years Eve.
The W2G would be issued upon winning rather you took the cash or not.
Quote: ChumpChangeWell, it would be fun to win on a slot machine, but table action isn't taxed unless you hit certain jackpots. If you had no taxable jackpots and withdrew a ton of front money, they give you a W-2 G?
Are you seriously asking if you get a W2G for withdrawing your own money?
Quote: AlanMendelsonReally?
Do you really think that if you got so far as to get a check that they would stop payment on it?
At least say something realistic. Like the casino files bankruptcy before you get out the door and the check is no good. LOL
I have had a casino refuse to pay a jackpot (gaming enforcement forced them to pay me)
I have had a casino confiscate vouchers ("it's not your money cause it has our name on it" was the line I was given by security). BTW, gaming enforcement forced them to pay me then as well.
Casino employees BELIEVE they are in the right to do whatever they THINK will hurt AP's.
So no, I don't put it past them to cancel a check
And lest you say show me one example of an AP where a casino paid out and then demanded their money back, I suggest you read up on Phil Ivey
Quote: darkozI have had a casino refuse to pay a jackpot (gaming enforcement forced them to pay me)
I have had a casino confiscate vouchers ("it's not your money cause it has our name on it" was the line I was given by security). BTW, gaming enforcement forced them to pay me then as well.
Casino employees BELIEVE they are in the right to do whatever they THINK will hurt AP's.
So no, I don't put it past them to cancel a check
And lest you say show me one example of an AP where a casino paid out and then demanded their money back, I suggest you read up on Phil Ivey
Then never mind what I said. Take the cash and deal with the problems cash present... including depositing it in a bank and having to have a CTR report.
Checks are so much easier with clean money. But if casinos are stopping you as you describe I guess you've got problems.
Good luck.
An extreme example- I win $20,000 at blackjack on a Thanksgiving 2021 trip, but take the chips home and cash them in on my next trip in late January 2022.
Do I owe the taxes for 2021 or 2022? The CTR would be dated in 2022.
Quote: billryanAre taxes due when you win the money or when you get paid?
An extreme example- I win $20,000 at blackjack on a Thanksgiving 2021 trip, but take the chips home and cash them in on my next trip in late January 2022.
Do I owe the taxes for 2021 or 2022? The CTR would be dated in 2022.
The CTR has nothing to do with your tax liability.
Your Thanksgiving win should be part of your quarterly report for that year. It doesn't matter when you take the chips home.
Quote: billryanAre taxes due when you win the money or when you get paid?
An extreme example- I win $20,000 at blackjack on a Thanksgiving 2021 trip, but take the chips home and cash them in on my next trip in late January 2022.
Do I owe the taxes for 2021 or 2022? The CTR would be dated in 2022.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThe CTR has nothing to do with your tax liability.
Your Thanksgiving win should be part of your quarterly report for that year. It doesn't matter when you take the chips home.
I'm not so sure about that - there are exceptions but normally income refers to cash, not tokens -
there are many gray areas of the tax code re gambling
for example: if a player wins $4,000 at blackjack today, 8-11-2020, doesn't cash his chips and then loses it all back tomorrow -
is he supposed to declare a win on his taxes for 8/11?
I think technically the IRS might answer yes - but few would handle it that way
even if he did cash his chips few would handle the tax issue in this situation as requiring a declaration
and even though it may not be technically the proper way, I doubt the IRS would have any problem with it as long as any net gain for the year is declared
Quote: lilredrooster
for example: if a player wins $4,000 at blackjack today, 8-11-2020, doesn't cash his chips and then loses it all back tomorrow -
is he supposed to declare a win on his taxes for 8/11?
Taxable gains and losses are reported quarterly, especially if you're a Schedule C professional. What's your net for the quarter? Your quarterly reports become your net for the tax year.
Do not confuse your quarterly net for the requirement of a daily log.
Quote: lilredroosterfor example: if a player wins $4,000 at blackjack today, 8-11-2020, doesn't cash his chips and then loses it all back tomorrow -
is he supposed to declare a win on his taxes for 8/11?
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'm really amazed at some of the questions raised here? I thought this forum had experienced gamblers?
Taxable gains and losses are reported quarterly, especially if you're a Schedule C professional. What's your net for the quarter? Your quarterly reports become your net for the tax year.
Do not confuse your quarterly net for the requirement of a daily log.
I was referring to if that gambling activity constituted everything for the year and the quarter -
would it have to be reported?
I think the IRS would say yes - but most wouldn't report it at all - even if it had been converted to cash
and I think the IRS would not have any problem with that as long as there was no yearly net gain
so, in my mind it constitutes a gray area of the gambling code - since there would be no enforcement - as long as there was no W2G
and again, Bill's question referred to winning chips - not cash
chips are not the same as cash - they're tokens
Quote: lilredroosterI was referring to if that gambling activity constituted everything for the year and the quarter -
would it have to be reported?
I think the IRS would say yes - but most wouldn't report it at all - even if it had been converted to cash
and I think the IRS would not have any problem with that as long as there was no yearly net gain
so, in my mind it constitutes a gray area of the gambling code - since there would be no enforcement - as long as there was no W2G
and again, Bill's question referred to winning chips - not cash
chips are not the same as cash - they're tokens
Just surmising but you don't pay taxes on unsold stock (dividends aside).
Chips are most definitely not considered legal currency and most casinos have verbiage that their chips may not be utilized off the premises for any type of monetary transactions
So I surmise chips are not counted towards income until they are cashed in
Quote: AlanMendelsonThen never mind what I said. Take the cash and deal with the problems cash present... including depositing it in a bank and having to have a CTR report.
What type of a problem does having a CTR filed cause? Unless you are laundering money, I don't see a problem.
If the amount is large enough that you feel you might want to a check, then it's an amount that I don't want to take the chance with the casino. Being in the advantage play business for many years I have seen plenty of shenanigans from the casinos. If they're Brazen enough to go to someone's room and confiscate their legitimate winnings. If they're Brazen enough to backroom someone and confiscate all their money including non Casino winnings. If they're willing to send people letters telling them they want their money back after the fact. If they're willing to sue you after the fact. I could go on and on listing different Shenanigans casinos have pulled, but I'll stop there.Quote: AlanMendelsonReally?
Do you really think that if you got so far as to get a check that they would stop payment on it?
At least say something realistic. Like the casino files bankruptcy before you get out the door and the check is no good. LOL
As an advantage player your best bet is to get the money in your hand and out of the casino.
SO, YES REALLY!
Quote: darkozJust surmising but you don't pay taxes on unsold stock (dividends aside).
that is not the same because a record of this goes to the IRS automatically from the broker
there is no record of a $4,000 blackjack win on one day and then a $4,000 loss on the next day - at least none submitted to the IRS by the casino
so, again, my point is that although you are technically obliged to report it, most wouldn't, and I don't believe the IRS cares as long as there is no net yearly gain
if there is a net gain of $4,000 you are obliged to report it and if you don't you have likely committed a crime if it was an intentional evasion, although the IRS would probably not charge you if they are aware of the win and can recover the taxes that are due
it is considered in a totally different way
if there is a W2G, this must be reported whether or not there is a net gain - if it's not reported it will cause the IRS to make an inquiry
The problem is... the casinos are not too fond of Advantage Players. Oftentimes, they don't realize until after the fact what just happened(they got beat by Advantage Players).Quote: AlanMendelsonThen never mind what I said. Take the cash and deal with the problems cash present... including depositing it in a bank and having to have a CTR report.
Checks are so much easier with clean money. But if casinos are stopping you as you describe I guess you've got problems.
Good luck.
Somewhere near Palm Springs a few years back during a promotion, not only did the casino refuse to pay the promotion bonuses, they actually refused to pay legitimate jackpots hit while Advantage Players were playing for the promotion bonus. I'm pretty sure dandruff covered it on his show and it may have went to the local news, I am not 100% sure about the local news part(from what I understand, the local news was contacted and interested in reporting on the matter however the issue may have been solved threatening the casino with local news coverage)
