Vegas shutting down again rumor

Quote: rxwine

I'm probably just reflecting my own attitude, as there has never been a casino, too dumpy or too dangerous for me to walk into. How could it fail?

Quote: mcallister3200

Have you been to Silver Nugget, Poker Palace, and Bighorn?

I don't know about rxwine, but I myself have been to all three of those places in support of my chip-collecting hobby, and I have posted my souvenirs of those visits in the Casino Chip of the Day thread.

As for a place being (in rxwine's words), "too dumpy or too dangerous for me to walk into", I don't think any of those three compared to the reputation of the Silver Saddle, for which I reported on my only visit in a post here.

Quote: MDawg

re: the Key Largo, Vegas: "I think" isn't facts, Red.

Have you researched it?

I have not extensively but from I have read online, the property has suffered from a series of bankruptcies, closed in 2005, and eventually was burned to the ground where arson was suspected, when no one would buy it even after the offer price was lowered from $79M to $48M with no takers, in - looks like 2013.

I mean there was supposedly a $225M bid (not accepted) on the property in 2007,
https://lasvegassun.com/news/2007/jun/17/own-your-own-casino/
and yet six years later they couldn't even get $48M for it and had to do a bust out operation. Doesn't sound like a success story.

Again, if you have any actual facts and not a vague recollection to back up that this property was a success, I stand corrected.

The reason I even mention the Key Largo is that we used to drive by it occasionally in the 2000s while staying long term in Vegas, and it looked worse and worse every time, finally ending up a scorched shell.

I don't understand your definition of "success," MDawg. If they bought the property for $23 million and were offered considerably more and turned it down, then obviously for the majority of its run, it was a "success." They went bankrupt at the end. So CET will be, by your definition, a "failure," too?

It's like, if Golden Gate or El Cortez goes bankrupt tomorrow, people made a fortune on those properties over the years. If you want to define them as "failures," okay, have at it.

Red, where are you getting this number of $23M? When was it bought for that? How much was put into it in renovations? How much did it lose before it was bankrupted? When exactly are you saying they sold it for more than they bought it for?

I gave you precise figures and dates based on what I could find online.

A place that gets burned down via arson to collect insurance is not representative of success. If it could be sold at that date for more, why burn it down?

Quote: MDawg

A place that gets burned down via arson to collect insurance is not representative of success. If it could be sold at that date for more, why burn it down?

In NY, it's referred to as Jewish Lightning or a Jewish BBQ and some people swear by it as a very successful business practice.
It's a bit of a cottage industry.

Quote: billryan

In NY, it's referred to as Jewish Lightning or a Jewish BBQ and some people swear by it as a very successful business practice.
It's a bit of a cottage industry.

I never thought I'd see that comment here.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I never thought I'd see that comment here.

I agree that was pretty offensive.

Plus as a Jewish NY'er I have never heard those terms.

There was a rash of arson in the 70's in the Bronx but today I would not call it a common practice

Quote: AlanMendelson

I never thought I'd see that comment here.

I understand it is an offensive term, but it is real and as far as I know has no other name.
Fortunes have been built on it. Some big name NYC developers got their start buying vacant buildings for past due taxes and getting lucky.

Quote: darkoz

I agree that was pretty offensive.

Plus as a Jewish NY'er I have never heard those terms.

There was a rash of arson in the 70's in the Bronx but today I would not call it a common practice

I've heard them and they're terribly offensive.

Quote: billryan

I understand it is an offensive term, but it is real and as far as I know has no other name.
Fortunes have been built on it. Some big name NYC developers got their start buying vacant buildings for past due taxes and getting lucky.

I think the unoffending name is Insurance Fraud via arson

Quote: MDawg

A place that gets burned down via arson to collect insurance is not representative of success. If it could be sold at that date for more, why burn it down?

My recollection was that the fire was started by a homeless person living in it.

Quote: Doc

I don't know about rxwine, but I myself have been to all three of those places in support of my chip-collecting hobby, and I have posted my souvenirs of those visits in the Casino Chip of the Day thread.

As for a place being (in rxwine's words), "too dumpy or too dangerous for me to walk into", I don't think any of those three compared to the reputation of the Silver Saddle, for which I reported on my only visit in a post here.

Google says it’s closed now. I read your write-up on it and would totally hang out there. That place sounds awesome!

Quote: DRich

My recollection was that the fire was started by a homeless person living in it.

This was the first fire in 2008, maybe you are thinking of this. Some guy trying to steal copper wire didn't realize the building still had power, and burned himself and caused a fire.
Copper Theft Blamed for Key Largo Fire
https://www.8newsnow.com/news/copper-theft-blamed-for-key-largo-fire/82256918/
We drove by the place a number of times in 2009, it was by no means burned up, I don't even recall observing that the place looked particularly like it had been on fire, so that fire must have been relatively minor.
"Fire officials say this is proof that not only is stealing copper a crime, but it’s also dangerous too."

Then in 2013, arson burned the place to the ground. Maybe the owners got the idea from the first blaze?
Clark County officials: Key Largo fire was arson
https://news3lv.com/archive/clark-county-officials-key-largo-fire-was-arson

ATF Suspects Arson in Massive Vegas Casino Fire
Officials have offered a $5,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of those responsible for the $4.5 million Key Largo Casino fire.
https://www.firehouse.com/prevention-investigation/news/10915450/atf-suspects-arson-in-massive-las-vegas-key-largo-casino-fire

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Doc

I don't know about rxwine, but I myself have been to all three of those places in support of my chip-collecting hobby, and I have posted my souvenirs of those visits in the Casino Chip of the Day thread.

As for a place being (in rxwine's words), "too dumpy or too dangerous for me to walk into", I don't think any of those three compared to the reputation of the Silver Saddle, for which I reported on my only visit in a post here.

Google says it’s closed now. I read your write-up on it and would totally hang out there. That place sounds awesome!

I stopped in once. I thought it was a Mexican country-western bar with a gaming license. I could see where a couple of mid-western conventioneers might run into problems. It's gone, but the clientele moved down the block to the machine only bucket of blood.

Quote: billryan

I stopped in once. I thought it was a Mexican country-western bar with a gaming license. I could see where a couple of mid-western conventioneers might run into problems. It's gone, but the clientele moved down the block to the machine only bucket of blood.

A few forum members can attest I’ve hung out in some pretty rough places, sometimes regularly. If you’re in a place like that and look nervous or anxious, you’re basically painting a target on yourself. If you appear comfortable, then my experience is nobody is really going to bother you.

I guess my only concern is that I don’t drink anymore, so drinking something non-alcoholic might cause me to stick out a bit.

Quote: MDawg

This was the first fire in 2008, maybe you are thinking of this. Some guy trying to steal copper wire didn't realize the building still had power, and burned himself and caused a fire.
Copper Theft Blamed for Key Largo Fire
https://www.8newsnow.com/news/copper-theft-blamed-for-key-largo-fire/82256918/
We drove by the place a number of times in 2009, it was by no means burned up, I don't even recall observing that the place looked particularly like it had been on fire, so that fire must have been relatively minor.
"Fire officials say this is proof that not only is stealing copper a crime, but it’s also dangerous too."

Then in 2013, arson burned the place to the ground. Maybe the owners got the idea from the first blaze?
Clark County officials: Key Largo fire was arson
https://news3lv.com/archive/clark-county-officials-key-largo-fire-was-arson

ATF Suspects Arson in Massive Vegas Casino Fire
Officials have offered a $5,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of those responsible for the $4.5 million Key Largo Casino fire.
https://www.firehouse.com/prevention-investigation/news/10915450/atf-suspects-arson-in-massive-las-vegas-key-largo-casino-fire

I always assumed it was the homeless people that were squatting in there or whatever.

Quote: Mission146

A few forum members can attest I’ve hung out in some pretty rough places, sometimes regularly. If you’re in a place like that and look nervous or anxious, you’re basically painting a target on yourself. If you appear comfortable, then my experience is nobody is really going to bother you.

I guess my only concern is that I don’t drink anymore, so drinking something non-alcoholic might cause me to stick out a bit.

When I first got to town I really didn't know much by the moon or did I have any money. I lived on 1st and Bonneville or something like that, I lived on Charleston and 13th(apparently there was a notorious 13th Street gang) I lived on Carson and 11th, and I lived in the Naked City. When I lived in the Naked City I used to go shoot pool at the Hard Hat Bar on Industrial since it was within walking distance and I didn't have a vehicle. I also went to a little place where I shot pool and ate food on Bonanza and Maryland Parkway call Jack and Jill's. I never really had any problems in those areas and crazy places.

I had a friend who wanted to shoot some pool, so I told him to meet me at the Hard Hat bar. He said," are you crazy? That's got to be the worst place in Las Vegas to be.

Virgin Hotel might delay opening.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/virgin-branded-hotel-in-las-vegas-reconsidering-fall-opening-date-2100510/

Quote: SOOPOO

Kewlj..... why on earth would you make 30 or so posts about your ability to count two tables in the "Is Vegas opening" thread? You know I like you. Why waste your time on convincing the unconvinceable? Ignore him when you return. Get the value from the forum that is there without wasting your time arguing with someone who claims to have rolled 18 yo's in a row!

If you want to talk about counting 2 tables, start a thread about it.

Well, I am not going to start a new thread, SOOPOO, because I don't really care to continue to harp on this, but I do have one more thing to say before we get back to 18 y.o.'s in a row and the Key Largo fire. lol

I didn't bring this tracking two tables discussion here, Alan did on page 48 of this very thread. But let me give you just a little history.

I first mentioned tracking two tables in the context of the old, long running "count debate" about higher level counts increasing a players win rate and EV. I happen to believe that just a couple mistakes, will wipe out any increase for MOST players, but that is beside the point. Simulations show an increase of about 10% for higher level counts. So somewhere along the line I said, that is pennies. If a player really wants to increase win rate and EV significantly there are other things he can do that make a much bigger difference and I gave the example of tracking a second table, which can basically double the high true counts that a player can see and play in the same period of time.

So Alan immediately jumped on this concept and challenged me. I can appreciate that a non-blackjack player, non-AP like Alan, finds this concept difficult to believe. On the forum we were on, with few members and even fewer blackjack player, one other person, came forward saying they have used this technique, RS_ (who we all know from this forum). Alan completely ignored that.

So I went to a blackjack forum (owned by the same owners as this site) and inquired to how many players had tracked a second table at times when conditions permitted. There were 5 or 6 players that stated they had done that including Don Schlesinger and Richard Munchkin. I figured even not a blackjack player, Alan would be familiar with these two. So I linked to that site, so Alan would see 6 or 7 other players stating they employed this concept. It didn't matter to Alan, he ignored that there were others and only continued to challenge me, thinking that I owed him some sort of proof, like a demonstration.

So when Alan, brought this discussion here, I thought "good", there are blackjack players here that will confirm they have used this technique. And at least 5 or 6 did just that. Again, Alan chose to ignore that now more than a dozen players, including some pretty public figures, had confirmed they use this technique and focus on me, continuing to demand that I prove something to him. Even Axelwolf, asked if Alan, was challenging that players could track two tables or only challenging that I could.

Alan pulls out the "journalism, card" when it is convenient for him to do so, but this incident including him taking intentionally blurry pictures at a casino and saying "see it can't be done", taints any credibility of journalism from Alan, as far as I am concerned. (18 y.o.'s in a row further taints any credibility of Alan).

So that is why I respond. And I would like to close asking Wizard (for a second time) if he has any experience of tracking a second table during his card counting days and experiences or if he knows of any players that did, Won't matter to Alan, he is only focused on me, but I am curious.

ok, back to Key Largo discussion. lol

Quote: AxelWolf

When I first got to town I really didn't know much by the moon or did I have any money. I lived on 1st and Bonneville or something like that, I lived on Charleston and 13th(apparently there was a notorious 13th Street gang) I lived on Carson and 11th, and I lived in the Naked City. When I lived in the Naked City I used to go shoot pool at the Hard Hat Bar on Industrial since it was within walking distance and I didn't have a vehicle. I also went to a little place where I shot pool and ate food on Bonanza and Maryland Parkway call Jack and Jill's. I never really had any problems in those areas and crazy places.

I had a friend who wanted to shoot some pool, so I told him to meet me at the Hard Hat bar. He said," are you crazy? That's got to be the worst place in Las Vegas to be.

Rough areas.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Virgin Hotel might delay opening.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/virgin-branded-hotel-in-las-vegas-reconsidering-fall-opening-date-2100510/

Went by there last week. With the exception of the removal of the big guitar, the place looks exactly the same as the day it closed from the outside including Hard Rock signage.

Quote: kewlj

Went by there last week. With the exception of the removal of the big guitar, the place looks exactly the same as the day it closed from the outside including Hard Rock signage.

Personally...I hate “re-brands”. AFAIK, this was a fairly large reworking of inside and outside.

There’s no substitute for ground up.

Aladdin to Planet Hollywood comes to mind on re-brand.

Quote: LuckyPhow

Personally, I don't understand this discussion about the report of a rare event by one member. Whether or not the event happened as reported, individuals can assess for themselves. Individual assessments probably include both qualitative (is it believable?) and quantitative (is it unlikely?) aspects. A person can believe the event true as reported, or not. However much these personal assessments pile up, imho they change nothing. No one except Alan knows the veracity of his claim.

But, Wiz, doesn't your comment confirm that we should expect to see any of those dice-roll sequences at any time. once, with equal likelihood? Don't we all agree that Alan's unlikely event is statistically possible? Can't we just tell Alan not to repeat that story for the next 164 centuries, and let it all go?

(Sigh. Of course, not a chance...)

I think it serves as an illustrated example that people can tell the same story over and over with 99%+ confidence and still be wrong. People really have pretty bad memories. This is worth considering with things like accusations of sexual harassment. Yes, I'm sure many are true, but people can also not remember things correctly.

I think if you ask any police officer, they will claim to hearing differing accounts of the same accident or situation on a daily basis. People's memories will bend according to how they wish an event had happened.

Quote: kewlj

And I would like to close asking Wizard (for a second time) if he has any experience of tracking a second table during his card counting days and experiences or if he knows of any players that did, Won't matter to Alan, he is only focused on me, but I am curious.

I've been asked to respond to this.

Personally, this is the first time I have ever discussed the topic. I certainly can't count two tables. You and Don Schlesinger are the only people I know who claim they can. I personally don't doubt you can. It is definitely within the range of abilities that are impressive but not too incredible to believe.

Fun Fact! -- James A. Garfield could write with both hands at the same time in different languages. (source #20).

Quote: Wizard

Quote: LuckyPhow

Personally, I don't understand this discussion about the report of a rare event by one member. Whether or not the event happened as reported, individuals can assess for themselves. Individual assessments probably include both qualitative (is it believable?) and quantitative (is it unlikely?) aspects. A person can believe the event true as reported, or not. However much these personal assessments pile up, imho they change nothing. No one except Alan knows the veracity of his claim.

But, Wiz, doesn't your comment confirm that we should expect to see any of those dice-roll sequences at any time. once, with equal likelihood? Don't we all agree that Alan's unlikely event is statistically possible? Can't we just tell Alan not to repeat that story for the next 164 centuries, and let it all go?

(Sigh. Of course, not a chance...)

I think it serves as an illustrated example that people can tell the same story over and over with 99%+ confidence and still be wrong. People really have pretty bad memories. This is worth considering with things like accusations of sexual harassment. Yes, I'm sure many are true, but people can also not remember things correctly.

I think if you ask any police officer, they will claim to hearing differing accounts of the same accident or situation on a daily basis. People's memories will bend according to how they wish an event had happened.

Memory is not accessing photographs (unless your memory is eidetic). For 99.999% of us, it's an active reconstruction, a retelling. Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable, and there have been some wild experiments to demonstrate the inaccuracy.

Having said that, even if the yo's got to 11 or 12, that would be something. The question becomes, "Was Alan's count at all close?"

You can understand, also, why people with eidetic memories would be qualitatively different than the usual human. We have the luxury of being able to adapt our memories, our re-tellings, to fit whatever narcissistic personal myths that we prefer to believe. People with eidetic memories don't have that luxury, or have to come up with a completely different way of ignoring the reality of what occurred.

Quote: Wizard

I think if you ask any police officer, they will claim to hearing differing accounts of the same accident or situation on a daily basis. People's memories will bend according to how they wish an event had happened.

I glad you said that because it made me look up the Monkey illusion again. But while doing so I found an interesting version.

It was underwhelming, until I watched to the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM

Quote: Wizard

Quote: LuckyPhow

Personally, I don't understand this discussion about the report of a rare event by one member. Whether or not the event happened as reported, individuals can assess for themselves. Individual assessments probably include both qualitative (is it believable?) and quantitative (is it unlikely?) aspects. A person can believe the event true as reported, or not. However much these personal assessments pile up, imho they change nothing. No one except Alan knows the veracity of his claim.

But, Wiz, doesn't your comment confirm that we should expect to see any of those dice-roll sequences at any time. once, with equal likelihood? Don't we all agree that Alan's unlikely event is statistically possible? Can't we just tell Alan not to repeat that story for the next 164 centuries, and let it all go?

(Sigh. Of course, not a chance...)

I think it serves as an illustrated example that people can tell the same story over and over with 99%+ confidence and still be wrong. People really have pretty bad memories. This is worth considering with things like accusations of sexual harassment. Yes, I'm sure many are true, but people can also not remember things correctly.

I think if you ask any police officer, they will claim to hearing differing accounts of the same accident or situation on a daily basis. People's memories will bend according to how they wish an event had happened.

Here's a question Wizard. When you say I'm wrong is it because you were at the table and counted a different total? Or, are you saying I was wrong only because the odds of it happening are so slim and you have no idea how many yos were thrown?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Here's a question Wizard. When you say I'm wrong is it because you were at the table and counted a different total? Or, are you saying I was wrong only because the odds of it happening are so slim and you have no idea how many yos were thrown?

I answer your question in this post.

Quote: Wizard

I answer your question in this post.

I want you to say you weren't at the table. Just say it.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Wizard

I answer your question in this post.

I want you to say you weren't at the table. Just say it.

Do you honestly think anything good is going to come from further pursuit of this subject?

Quote: billryan

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Wizard

I answer your question in this post.

I want you to say you weren't at the table. Just say it.

Do you honestly think anything good is going to come from further pursuit of this subject?

Yes. Because there's a difference saying "I was there and you counted incorrectly" and saying "I was not there but mathematically there's only one in a gazillion chances of it happening."

One in a gazillion can happen.

Yes, but it didn't.

To address card counting multiple tables all that matters is that at least one person in the world can do it.

That makes it possible.

There are plenty of things not everyone can do.

How many people can shoot with accurate precision two balloons spaced ten feet apart so fast that it doesn't even look like you drew your weapon?

Probably none on this forum.

Yet it can be done!!

If I throw six Hard 6's or Hard 8's in a row, it might get me a few thousand dollars, but the odds are over 1 in 1.75 million.
If I throw five Hard 6's or Hard 8's in a row, it might get me a few thousand dollars, but the odds are over 1 in 1.6 hundred thousand.

Quote: darkoz

How many people can shoot with accurate precision two balloons spaced ten feet apart so fast that it doesn't even look like you drew your weapon?

Probably none on this forum.

I think my daughter can. She was the Junior World Champion in Cowboy Quick Draw. The best she has done as an adult is 5th place in the world.

Even low overhead Casino Royale has problems.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/layoffs-at-las-vegas-strip-properties-continue-2100821/

Quote: AlanMendelson

I want you to say you weren't at the table. Just say it.

I wasn't at the table.

Quote: Wizard

I wasn't at the table.

Don’t have to be to understand the odds of it happening. It didn’t.

Quote: Wizard

I wasn't at the table.

Thank you. And I can't prove it happened. And when I tried to get the proof, the actual tape from Caesars, I was told it was too late.

I can't even show a win/loss statement for that day because I never bet on a yo and have nothing to show for it.

The one dealer, James, who was the stickman during the roll retired after that. I havent seen him since.

There was no floor man or box man at the table since there was no action with only three players and so little betting.

I never submitted "news" of the event to my employer nor did I even write about it on my own websites. I never considered it to be news at all.

If someone did the research they'd see I made a one line comment on a thread on this website mentioning it. I had no idea it was so "significant."

Bottom line: you all made a bigger deal out of it than I ever thought it was.

But what sticks out in my mind are two other events at Caesars:

1. The guy who had a four and a half hour roll at Caesars breaking the record of the grandma in Atlantic City. Caesars never put out a press release. I asked the pit boss about why that happened? He shrugged his shoulders.

2. I was at Caesars the night a guy won a million dollars playing craps at the table next to me. I actually asked Caesars for a statement because I thought winning a million dollars at one session in a crowded casino on a Saturday night was a story the public could relate to. Do you know what Caesars management said to me? They said "this happens all the time at Caesars." And that killed the story.

Now, why do I mention all this? Because what I saw at Caesars with the yos has the slimmest of chances to be replicated. But if someone had the ability to count two blackjack tables simultaneously even when conditions were right, this would be something that could be replicated and demonstrated.

So far one person claims this ability and Wizard says he knows of one other who may be able to.

Yet, a skill that is being considered as "real" has no proof either.

Quote: AlanMendelson

But if someone had the ability to count two blackjack tables simultaneously even when conditions were right, this would be something that could be replicated and demonstrated.

So far one person claims this ability and Wizard says he knows of one other who may be able to.

Here you go again, Alan. Half truths and ignoring the facts and numbers.

A total of 12 people have gone on record as saying they employ this technique when conditions permit, including 5 on this very forum, during this discussion, also including several very known players. Yet you continue to say "so far one person". I don't know what else to call it other than you continue to lie.

Where you are correct is that this could be replicated and demonstrated by any number of these players, myself included. Could be....but it won't be, at least on my part. There is absolutely no benefit to me doing so. For what? To appease you? I have no idea why you think someone, anyone, has to prove anything to you?


But I do see a connection now to your challenging my ability to track multiple tables and your ridiculous claim of 18 y.o. in a row. You have gotten so much flack over your claim, over the years, mostly because there is almost zero chance it occurred as you are saying or remembering, that you are trying to give me the same type of flack or grief. Again, there are a dozen people that have confirmed that they have at times tracked a second table, when condition are right....A DOZEN. You just choose to ignore that because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Yet, a skill that is being considered as "real" has no proof either.

You just equated (1/18)^18 with turning your head slightly, having 20/20 vision (naturally or through corrective lenses), adding ones and negative ones, and not confusing that total with the current table where you're adding ones and negative ones.

I've literally done this after 6 Coors Lights. And I got up and moved tables based on the information.

It's pathetic. Just stop. You got caught in a huge lie and just refuse to back down. You saw 5 yos in a row and decided to embellish without realizing how absurd your claim was because you aren't good at math. Just give it up already. Nobody believes you.

Kewlj perhaps I've been too hard on you. Please define:

Quote: kewlj

my ability to track multiple tables

And please define:

Quote: kewlj

when condition are right

How accurate is your skill?

I nominate this thread for "Most Hijacked Thread of the Year'

Quote: kewlj

Here you go again, Alan. Half truths and ignoring the facts and numbers.

A total of 12 people have gone on record as saying they employ this technique when conditions permit, including 5 on this very forum, during this discussion, also including several very known players. Yet you continue to say "so far one person". I don't know what else to call it other than you continue to lie.

Where you are correct is that this could be replicated and demonstrated by any number of these players, myself included. Could be....but it won't be, at least on my part. There is absolutely no benefit to me doing so. For what? To appease you? I have no idea why you think someone, anyone, has to prove anything to you?


But I do see a connection now to your challenging my ability to track multiple tables and your ridiculous claim of 18 y.o. in a row. You have gotten so much flack over your claim, over the years, mostly because there is almost zero chance it occurred as you are saying or remembering, that you are trying to give me the same type of flack or grief. Again, there are a dozen people that have confirmed that they have at times tracked a second table, when condition are right....A DOZEN. You just choose to ignore that because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Just to clarify: In my posts I'm not claiming to have actually done this. I most certainly have not. I simply identified conditions in which I could be playing at one table and would have no trouble seeing the cards on another table (and identifying them) assuming there are no bodies in my way.

Quote: Mission146

Just to clarify: In my posts I'm not claiming to have actually done this. I most certainly have not. I simply identified conditions in which I could be playing at one table and would have no trouble seeing the cards on another table (and identifying them) assuming there are no bodies in my way.

Kewlj was very specific. You must sit in a middle seat.

I've sat in middle seats in at least four casinos and each of those casinos had the tables arranged in a straight line, which would require a drastic turn to the left or right.

There are other possible hindrances including:

1. The distance between tables
2. Where players sit at his table and the second table
3. When dealers are dealing, and when Kewlj must act
4. Other blocks including drinks, chips, the lip of the table, and his own height to see the other table's surface

To date... and this goes back several years... no one on this forum or another forum where this was discussed has said that they took a middle seat and described what they could see. No one.

Reactions and comments have ranged from I can count two tables to I know someone who counts two tables that I'm whipping a dead horse, that I stood behind two tables... but no one has said they sat in the middle seat.

Kewlj has never quantified what are good conditions for him to count two tables; he has never quantified his effectiveness of counting two tables. He just says he and others do it.

How do we know the effectiveness?

I'm sure counting one table would not entail missing any cards. But how many cards are missed at the second table?

Can you delay your own game when you're caught looking at the next game over? Can you disguise that you're counting the next table after looking then move?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Kewlj was very specific. You must sit in a middle seat.

I've sat in middle seats in at least four casinos and each of those casinos had the tables arranged in a straight line, which would require a drastic turn to the left or right.

There are other possible hindrances including:

1. The distance between tables
2. Where players sit at his table and the second table
3. When dealers are dealing, and when Kewlj must act
4. Other blocks including drinks, chips, the lip of the table, and his own height to see the other table's surface

To date... and this goes back several years... no one on this forum or another forum where this was discussed has said that they took a middle seat and described what they could see. No one.

Reactions and comments have ranged from I can count two tables to I know someone who counts two tables that I'm whipping a dead horse, that I stood behind two tables... but no one has said they sat in the middle seat.

Kewlj has never quantified what are good conditions for him to count two tables; he has never quantified his effectiveness of counting two tables. He just says he and others do it.

How do we know the effectiveness?

I'm sure counting one table would not entail missing any cards. But how many cards are missed at the second table?

Can you delay your own game when you're caught looking at the next game over? Can you disguise that you're counting the next table after looking then move?

The way that casino employees think is not always the way you assume.

I can easily see KJ constantly turning to keep track of a second table as being misinterpreted as a player easily distracted from his game.

I.E. it may serve as a cover of sorts to the dealer and pit who may assume such an easily distracted player can't possibly be keeping track of the cards at his own table.

I highly doubt pit and dealer will assume player is so masterful at what he does he is counting at two tables simultaneously.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm sure counting one table would not entail missing any cards. But how many cards are missed at the second table?

What Alan wants me to say by these last 2 posts is that it doesn't matter if the player misses a few cards. It is not ideal, but it doesn't change the fact an advantage can be determined by only the cards seen, even if a few are missed. Stanford Wong proved this. This is why a player can walk by a game in the middle of a shoe, with several decks having already been played and determine and advatage by only the cards seen on the felt (if there are many small cards).

I am sorry you can't or don't want to understand this concept Alan. Perhaps you should question/challenge Stanford Wong?

Quote: AlanMendelson

How do we know the effectiveness?

I keep detailed records. Professional players keep records.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Can you delay your own game when you're caught looking at the next game over? Can you disguise that you're counting the next table after looking then move?

There is no "getting caught looking". Players are free to look at whatever they want. Nearby TV monitor. Someone playing a machine nearby, a pretty girl walking by. And yes the goings on at the next table.

I am not going to keep going over and over things we have been over a hundred times. You ask questions that you don't want to hear the answers to and won't believe the answers when you hear them. Perfect example: A frequent line of Alan's is that he challenges anyone to go to a casino and look for themselves. So, redietz did exactly that. Alan didn't like what redietz reported back, so Alan has challenged him ever since.

This will probably be my last post on this one because, with no offense meant to KewlJ, yourself or anyone else, I think card counting blackjack, blackjack in general and this conversation are all mostly boring. I do enjoy the accounts from card counters that KewlJ (and others) have made over the years, but with skillful writing and/or great speaking, they are overcoming the obstacle that I find blackjack fundamentally pretty boring.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Kewlj was very specific. You must sit in a middle seat.

I've sat in middle seats in at least four casinos and each of those casinos had the tables arranged in a straight line, which would require a drastic turn to the left or right.

There are other possible hindrances including:

1. The distance between tables
2. Where players sit at his table and the second table
3. When dealers are dealing, and when Kewlj must act
4. Other blocks including drinks, chips, the lip of the table, and his own height to see the other table's surface

Did he say you always must, or that you must for the casino(s) he was describing? In the Blackjack situation I mentioned...and I could be wrong...but you would want to sit in the leftmost or next to leftmost seat (if you were facing the table) in order to accomplish this. I strongly suspect that the physical relationship of the two tables to one another matters.

1.) Obviously. That's why I would be highly dubious had KewlJ claimed he could always do this with any two tables next to one another. I do not believe he has made any such claim.

2.) This is also obvious and I have acknowledged it in previous posts. This is another reason I would be extremely skeptical if KewlJ said he could always do this.

3.) I guess this could occasionally be a problem. I don't see it as always being a problem.

4.) I've discussed all of these for the tables that I mentioned.

Quote:

To date... and this goes back several years... no one on this forum or another forum where this was discussed has said that they took a middle seat and described what they could see. No one.

In general terms, there have been multiple claims that this has been done. Just in this thread.

Quote:

Reactions and comments have ranged from I can count two tables to I know someone who counts two tables that I'm whipping a dead horse, that I stood behind two tables... but no one has said they sat in the middle seat.

Okay, so what will your counterargument be when we get multiple people saying they sat at, or near, the middle?

Quote:

Kewlj has never quantified what are good conditions for him to count two tables; he has never quantified his effectiveness of counting two tables. He just says he and others do it.

How do you quantify conditions? Do you want him to list a bunch of possible scenarios and rate them on a 0-10 scale?

Quote:

How do we know the effectiveness?

I'm sure counting one table would not entail missing any cards. But how many cards are missed at the second table?

Effect-of-Removal doesn't necessarily care how many cards are missed, within reason. Effect-of-Removal only pertains to known cards being out of a segment of cards v. how many cards are remaining. If someone knows that the TC at his table has turned negative, but has the TC at the other table at +3...despite being unsure of what two of the cards were...lacking knowledge of those two cards would not be sufficient to not want to switch tables. It's not going to turn TC +3 into a negative count, or anything like that.

Quote:

Can you delay your own game when you're caught looking at the next game over? Can you disguise that you're counting the next table after looking then move?

In my limited experience playing/observing Blackjack, it occurs to me that people switch tables all the time.

As far as, "Disguising," the fact that you're tracking a second table...you don't even believe it can be done, so what is there to disguise? Unless you were known or became known as a card counter, this would look like very normal behavior. That's especially true if you had lost the last few hands at your original table.

Closing note: Just because I could not successfully conduct a surgery on someone's brain doesn't mean there are not brain surgeons.

“We’ve got a situation here on BJ-2, a player in the middle seat was looking in the direction of another table in the pit. Get security now!” 🤦‍♀️