Vegas shutting down again rumor

Quote: ChumpChange

All 50 states are bankrupt with the bailout rejection today.

Please link to a SINGLE state declaring bankruptcy. I won't hold my breath.

I agree with Mission. I think Boyd bought Eastside Cannery to help Sam's Town. My guess when they purchased it was for them to close it down and use their marketing system to bring those players to Sam's Town.

Quote: kewlj

I didn't realize Boyd had yet to reopen Main Street Station

It’s unfortunate. MSS is my favorite place in Vegas. Likely my favorite casino anywhere. Great design, $5 craps with 20x odds, over 100% VP, $5 (double deck?) BJ game, perfectly good cheap buffet, brewery with good beer, a lot of character and history. I hope it comes back. I’d much rather have MSS than the Cal or Fremont.

Got a California IOU? Better cash it quick – The Mercury News
PUBLISHED: July 9, 2009
https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/07/09/got-a-california-iou-better-cash-it-quick/

Quote: SOOPOO

Please link to a SINGLE state declaring bankruptcy. I won't hold my breath.

Unless something has changed pretty recently, states are not eligible for bankruptcy protection.
If they were, a number would be filing.

States can't file bankruptcy but local governments like cities and counties can and have.

States can go into default.

If you're owed money by a State, you can lose either way.

Bankruptcy laws protect the debtor. The concept of bankruptcy is that businesses and local governments and people should be treated as living beings who are entitled to life. Yes, a financial right to life.

States are exempted.

Quote: AlanMendelson

States can't file bankruptcy but local governments like cities and counties can and have.

States can go into default.

If you're owed money by a State, you can lose either way.

Bankruptcy laws protect the debtor. The concept of bankruptcy is that businesses and local governments and people should be treated as living beings who are entitled to life. Yes, a financial right to life.

States are exempted.

Alan,

I lived in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania back in the '90's. It was accumulating debt hand over foot, and the mayor had some grand dream of creating a Gettysburg-type museum, even though Gettysburg was just an hour away. So he bought all of this expensive memorabilia. Anyway, the city of Harrisburg filed Chapter 9 sometime shortly after I moved away. As I recall, when they ran the numbers, the city was 30K in debt for each resident.

Here's the kicker -- it was the first city that the SEC ever charged with securities fraud. LOL.

Well, it's actually not funny. So as the city tried to file for bankruptcy, the state intervened and put Harrisburg into some kind of receivership. I don't remember the details, but I'm sure you could research it online and explain it. The point is that it's as you say -- the state could not technically go into bankruptcy, so theoretically states could put all of the bankrupt municipalities into receivership of some kind.

That'd be an unbelievable mess.

Harrisburg, by the way, was a featured location for the "I ain't wearing a mask!" rallies back in April. It made all of the national news reports.

Quote: Mission146

Cheating at Blackjack? Do tell!

I took a lot of heat from fellow AP's last time I told of the second of my two cheating situations. (this was the first). I took heat because there was some AP's that were exploiting that situation. No one is exploiting this situation because they stopped doing it even before Boyd bought the property in 2016.

So there was a face up, double deck game with about 65% penetration. Automatic shuffle machine. Pretty good game. Very similar in SCORE to the El Co, face up DD game, which SCORE-wise is one of my top games. Problem was where the El co is among my top results every year, the East Cannery game with a high SCORE was absolutely my worst.

I play a rotation about 30 games here in Vegas at any given time. It is enough that I am not any one casino too often, but small enough that I end up with a decent sample size for most games. Not enough to "guarantee" anything but enough that I can spot when things start to look abnormal.

So excluding out of town games, and looking only at the 30ish games in my regular rotation, in 2013 I had winning totals at 28 casinos and losing at 3, In 2014, winning at 28, losing at 5, 2015, winning at 29, losing at 2. Eastside Cannery was in that losing group all three of those years and the single biggest losing amounts in two of those years. That is the kind of thing I mean when I say "abnormal". And because it was actually one of my partner's favorite places because of the cute buffet (rarely crowded) and other restaurant called Snaps, I played there a lot. Among the top in rounds played, among the bottom in results with 3 straight losing years.

So it took me a while to figure out exactly what was going on. Longer than it should have taken. :-/ But I finally did. It was the shuffle machine. When I played with a particular pit guy, which I often did, because I often played afternoons just before or after lunchtime, This pit guy who was always super friendly to me, who always seemed sympathetic to my poor sessions, would always punch a code into the ASM, and presto, I would lose almost EVERY time, occasionally breaking even or registering the smallest of wins, but 90% of the time, a substantial loss. High counts would come out, but I would almost never win those rounds.

Once I figured out what I thought was happening, I naturally decided to stop playing that game, but I played one last time, just so I could have my say. So I sit down. My friendly pit buddy wonders over and punches a code into the ASM, at which point I tell him that every time he does so, the cards are clumped and I lose. While he did not respond, his facial expression confirmed what I already 100% knew. I colored up and never played there again.

I chalked it up to an isolated incident. I played other ASM games and never experienced any results that I considered to be abnormal, until about 3 years later when I began to see a similar pattern at another casino. This pattern wasn't quite so easy to spot because my abnormal sessions were only occurring at 2 tables that had only recently opened with newer model ASM, while 2 existing tables with older models my results were very normal, very consistently good.

But once I did spot it, I wrote about it at one of the blackjack forums, and someone brought that discussion here ( I was not a member here at the time). So there was quite a bit of chatter about this second incident and amazingly within 10 days, those two newer tables and the newer model ASM were gone from the casino floor, replaced by non-blackjack games. Unfortunately that is when several AP's that un-be-knowns to me, had found a way to exploit this situation, became a little perturbed with me.

After that second incident, I began to worry that this would become more and more common AND I wanted to learn more about the exploiting opportunity, so I purchased the ASM model in question. Of course you can't purchase these from the manufacturer, I purchased it privately from someone in Asia, There are also difficulties in getting these privately purchased machines into the U.S. I had it sent to a friend in Canada, who drove it across the border and shipped it to me.

I hired a guy who was able to make a very minor adjustment that allowed the machine to do exactly what I thought it capable of doing. Now granted, this meant the machine did not leave the manufacturer with this capability as I originally assumed (protecting the manufacturer), but the adjustment is SO minor, it is sort of a back door "wink and nod" type thing.

I know there will be some casino folks that respond telling me, I am full of it. But, I know what I am talking about on this one. It isn't widespread, at least yet, but the capability is there.

Isn't it obvious? If there is a potential for cheating someone is going to do it. And I suspect it is not only the ASM's but video poker and craps as well. I was playing VP just last weekend and lost $300 on a quarter machine. That's not unusual; what was unusual was that I never filled a four card flush opportunity. NOT ONE.

Craps. Since Aug 1 I have lost $12,000 in 3 sessions playing $10 pass and come with $50 - $100 odds. This is a game with 1.4% house edge, even less with odds. Of course everyone says the don't bettors must be doing OK. They're not. It's not hard for the casino to see which side the money is on.

Beast mode?

Quote: mcallister3200

Beast mode?

I don't like to use that term because it has a conspiracy ring to it, because the first person I heard use that term, has other conspiracy theories, but yes, these machines, at least the newer models have this capability with just a minor adjustment. I had possession of a machine for a number of months, so I know first hand.

I passed that machine on (at my cost) to another AP here in Vegas, regarded as maybe the top table game AP. So if you don't want to believe me, talk to him about it. (although he usually doesn't give up too much for free). lol

This gets my vote for best Covid-19 face mask.

https://mymodernmet.com/leather-alien-facehugger-face-mask/

Quote: kewlj

I don't like to use that term because it has a conspiracy ring to it, because the first person I heard use that term, has other conspiracy theories, but yes, these machines, at least the newer models have this capability with just a minor adjustment. I had possession of a machine for a number of months, so I know first hand.

I passed that machine on (at my cost) to another AP here in Vegas, regarded as maybe the top table game AP. So if you don't want to believe me, talk to him about it. (although he usually doesn't give up too much for free). lol

Do you have video evidence that you can show? I suspect Mr Wizard would be interested in proof of this.

Quote: billryan

Do you have video evidence that you can show? I suspect Mr Wizard would be interested in proof of this.

Video evidence? What I was going to stand at El Cortez for several days video taping? lol. My evidence was that between playing and watching, I tracked over 200+ shoes, I think 97% reached a TC of +4 or -4, indicating abnormal clumping. Don Schlesinger confirmed this was was far above expectation. My evidence was to satisfy me, not to present to gaming.

When this discussion came to this site I guess about 2-3 years ago now, I was not a member so I couldn't weigh in, participate in the discussion and answer questions here. But from the day the discussion came here, it was probably about 10 days, if memory serves me to the time those machines were removed and the tables actually switched out to non-blackjack games. That is not a coincidence.

A group of us had been talking on another site, about bringing a case to Nevada Gaming. I just wanted no part of being the face of that complaint, as it would have jeopardized my career. There was talk of Al Rogers / LVBear because he had some involvement in the Mindplay cases which had some similarities. I forget if Al declined or wasn't interested. Then someone suggested Mike (wizard). I believe Mike may have been out of town traveling when this was being discussed on this forum, as he did not initially weigh in. A couple weeks later when he had returned, Mike said he was going to EC and check it out, but by that time the machines and tables had been switched out. So the timing just didn't jive.

Anyway, I am done re-living this past discussion / event. Mission asked for details, so I obliged. lol

But as things worked out, I got my desired effect which was the removal of those machines from a location I played. Unfortunately it came at a cost of an exploitable opportunity that others were playing that I did not foresee at the time.

So you bought this machine, studied it, learned how to manipulate it but never videotaped any of it? Seems strange that you went through all the effort to sneak the machine into the country, discovered something earth-shattering but then sold the machine without documenting the illicit behavior. Did the new owner have the same conclusions?

Even though the problem is gone at the moment, this machine still exists and is, apparently, easily corrupted.

Do you still have the machine you bought? If so, would you consider asking Mike if he'd be willing to see a demo of "beast mode" and pursue it with Gaming if he agrees with your findings? I understand your reluctance, but it presents an ongoing threat.

Quote: billryan

So you bought this machine, studied it, learned how to manipulate it but never videotaped any of it? Seems strange that you went through all the effort to sneak the machine into the country, discovered something earth-shattering but then sold the machine without documenting the illicit behavior. Did the new owner have the same conclusions?

ok, I see what you are saying now, billryan. No I didn't do that. As I said, I had no interest in being the face of any kind of action whether through gaming or legal. So I wasn't at that point looking to create "evidence". I wanted possession of a machine to satisfy my own questions.

Quote: 21forme

Even though the problem is gone at the moment, this machine still exists and is, apparently, easily corrupted.

Do you still have the machine you bought? If so, would you consider asking Mike if he'd be willing to see a demo of "beast mode" and pursue it with Gaming if he agrees with your findings? I understand your reluctance, but it presents an ongoing threat.

I do not have the ASM that I bought. I only had it a short time. I resold it covering my costs to another AP here in Vegas....one of the smart ones, who promised to share some of what he discovered.

Yes, the problem is gone at the moment. One other case popped up about a year ago, that I was notified about, took a look, but didn't play it, for reasons I will keep to myself. That one didn't last long either as I heard it was removed some time later.

Although my actions may have ended a play for a few fellow AP's which I regret, the outcome for me was pretty good. At the store in question the machines were removed (rather than spread) and I have been able to keep playing that location on their other tables.

And, there has not been a lot of spread of this, which is something I feared greatly. We all guess at how much casinos and casino personnel read and are aware of these forums. A few forum admins acknowledge that membership consists of casino personnel (Wong used to confirm), while some members including 1 or 2 here admit their association with casinos. I am thinking that the buzz that this story got 2-3 years ago on several forums, might just have been a deterrent. Any casino, or casino manager thinking of going this route has to know there are players looking for it now. That is a good thing that I think has come from this.

But there will be future new "things". Just like Mind Play and now this, the casino industry has proven they will do whatever, on either side of what is legal or not. With these new technologies, any wrong doing will likely be met with a "you can't do that" by gaming, rather than a big fine and label of cheating. Just the way it went down with Mind Play. Slap on the wrist. "don't do that anymore".

If the machine exists and can be altered to cheat players I'll put it on TV.

Quote: AlanMendelson

If the machine exists and can be altered to cheat players I'll put it on TV.

I think that's billy's point...considering it's evidence of casino cheating, the entire process of acquiring the machine and re-programming it to cheat players it should have already been on TV, or at the very least would have been documented via video.

Everything little thing has been recorded for several years now, how could something like this have avoided video documentation?

Quote: coachbelly

I think that's billy's point...considering it's evidence of casino cheating, the entire process of acquiring the machine and re-programming it to cheat players it should have already been on TV, or at the very least would have been documented via video.

Everything little thing has been recorded for several years now, how could something like this have avoided video documentation?

Yeah... it's like demonstrating how you can count cards on two tables simultaneously. You can talk about it, or you can show it.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Yeah... it's like demonstrating how you can count cards on two tables simultaneously. You can talk about it, or you can show it.

Well, not exactly.

Counting cards on two tables at once is something that you can demonstrate or recreate at will. Verification can be accomplished by arranging a time and place where it can be seen. You could video tape it, but in fact that's more likely to be fabricated. And if you can do it, you can do it anytime you want, assuming it's not something that requires excessive skill or circumstance, like running a 4 minute mile, for hours on end, every four minutes.

Kewlj's story is from the past and cannot be recreated or "shown." It's not an event that occurs even randomly, never mind where it's going on and you happen by, on purpose or by accident, and record it. You don't see every automobile accident, but every once in a while a video shows up that is a recording of something that happened in real time.

Furthermore, who knows what circumstances "activate" the event. When the switch is turned on, assuming it's a machine setting, does the thing switch into "clumping mode" from then on, until it's switched off? Every time there's a shuffle? Every other time? One time in ten?

This is not Moby Dick. He's not on a quest or a lifelong pursuit. His name is not Ahab. He's done enough research to convince himself that what he saw in the field can be replicated in his "laboratory", and I doubt he's worried too much whether you believe him or not. He walked away from the place where it happened, and when he sees it again, somewhere else, he'll do the same thing.

I've heard more than my share of conspiracy theories in this forum. This one seems more likely to be true, to me, than most of them.

The casino industry is huge. Who else has reported this "feature" and its use? Perhaps they have a video on YouTube?

It is not a machine setting. I want to be very clear about that. I initially thought it was, that it left the manufacturer that way and only required the key (code) to be punched in. I was wrong about that. Let me say that again, I WAS WRONG ABOUT THAT. It required a minor programming adjustment. That is what I learned from taking actual possession of the machine for a period.

While I am not very smart in tech stuff, I wouldn't have been able to do this minor program adjustment on my own. But there are many people, including many on this site that could. It took the guy that "adjusted the machine I had about 90 seconds. And I refuse to believe the manufacturer knows nothing about this. They programmed in this backdoor capability but did so in a manner that requires an "adjustment" just to protect themselves.

Now Alan, if you want to turn this back into our long running discussion on tracking two tables, I suggest you re-inquire about that on this forum, because I know there are other players here that track or have tracked a second table at times.

For those new to this discussion, on another forum, one populated with very few blackjack players, I mentioned that I track a second table from time to time, WHEN CONDITIONS PERMIT. Specifically that sitting in the middle seat, I can view the next door table if there is a "key" open seat and am able to track that game, while playing my own for a short time. NOT for entire shoes but for several rounds, which can provide me an opportunity to jump from a neutral count at my table to a much better opportunity at the next table.

When I started doing this years ago, I thought it was something unique that I was doing. In speaking with other players, I learned MANY blackjack players at the professional and serious level have employed this technique AT TIMES. To name a few Don Schlesinger, Richard Munchkin, the earlier mentioned "bigplayer", as well as others that are members of this forum, that I will leave it to them to decide if they want to weigh in.

For a player that plays frequently, it is a natural progression. In today's world of blackjack most professional type players don't "play all" anymore, that is sit at one table and play through all counts for hours on end. That is something from years that started with a 1 (last century). Today, professional and serious type players have some sort of exit trigger in which they abandon one table with a negative count and look for another table. To start that process of looking for the next opportunity before you have exited is the next logical step, or natural progression.

Granted in the age of covid-19, if a table has plastic dividers, tracking a second table is out.

BUT games without plastic dividers, the "key" seat that I need vacant is guaranteed to be vacant, by the 3 player rule. The only question would be is there an open seat to jump to. :/

As a point of simple logic, I am compelled to mention that if I had acquired this kind of machine, I would have video recorded the way it works. But then, if asked, I would deny that I had ever done so. There is no percentage in telling anyone you have a video of this.

I wonder what’s more likely to have happened, a professional card counter counting two tables simultaneously for a half dozen or dozen hands every once in a while or a craps player throwing the same number over a dozen times in a row.

Quote: redietz

As a point of simple logic, I am compelled to mention that if I had acquired this kind of machine, I would have video recorded the way it works. But then, if asked, I would deny that I had ever done so. There is no percentage in telling anyone you have a video of this.

Logic doesn't play well on some of these forums, Redietz.

Just talking about this several years ago, made me very unpopular in the AP community, especially a small handful that were playing this play. I got some very unflattering emails and PM's.

Just imagine if I were to post a video, which would have the unintended consequence of completely outing this play in great detail?

And for what, because somebody like an Alan Mendelson, who doesn't even play blackjack wants to play TV journalist? I might have to move out of Vegas. lol.

Quote: mcallister3200

I wonder what’s more likely to have happened, a professional card counter counting two tables simultaneously for a half dozen or dozen hands every once in a while or a craps player throwing the same number over a dozen times in a row.

I suspect someone like you has tracked a second table at times (back when you were playing more blackjack). I don't know what you are doing now-a-days. lol

It is a natural progression. Think about the traditional card counter teams, using a call in approach. You have spotters looking for an advantageous opportunities and then when he finds it, you have players that enter and play. This is sort of playing both roles. You can't do it for too long and you may miss a couple cards (another concept Alan has trouble with), but you can do it long enough and accurately enough to identify a significantly better opportunity than the game you are currently playing. You get to jump to a more advantageous , stronger opportunity with zero down time of looking for a new game.

The way I like to look at it is you are altering the positive true count frequencies (+EV rounds played) in your favor, significantly improving your results.

Quote: kewlj

I suspect someone like you has tracked a second table at times (back when you were playing more blackjack). I don't know what you are doing now-a-days.

Yes have done it many times. Not as much the way I think you do it but the environments where there’s a half dozen or more shoe tables and they tolerate wonging it’s not difficult at all, can sort of track most of them by walking to pick up new shuffle and dropping ones not likely to go anywhere. If it’s not second nature you can even use your fingers in your pockets to track one use your head for the other one, obviously if you run out of fingers to the positive you’ve hit an entry point and to the negative not worth tracking any more.

What am I doing nowadays? I’ve went in spurts of playing more blackjack and spurts of more other stuff. Due to current events now I’m just going back to college for computer science at way too old of an age and mostly just picking a few offers not spending too much time in the casinos due to current unpredictable environment.

Quote: mcallister3200

What am I doing nowadays? Due to current events now I’m just going back to college for computer science at way too old of an age

SMART! Good use of downtime. Online learning? You are not old and no one is ever to old to learn and increase their options and opportunities.

Quote: kewlj

Logic doesn't play well on some of these forums, Redietz.

Just talking about this several years ago, made me very unpopular in the AP community, especially a small handful that were playing this play. I got some very unflattering emails and PM's.

Just imagine if I were to post a video, which would have the unintended consequence of completely outing this play in great detail?

And for what, because somebody like an Alan Mendelson, who doesn't even play blackjack wants to play TV journalist? I might have to move out of Vegas. lol.

I don't play TV journalist. I was one winning national awards before you were born.

You have alleged casinos are cheating.

You have alleged that the makers of shuffling machines are aware that the function of their machines can be altered.

Quote: kewlj

And I refuse to believe the manufacturer knows nothing about this. They programmed in this backdoor capability but did so in a manner that requires an "adjustment" just to protect themselves.

You have even claimed that while SITTING and actively playing at one table you can still count at an adjoining table or even at a table some distance away using mirrors on the ceiling.

But you provide no proof and even refused to meet me at the casino of your choice to demonstrate how you can count two tables simultaneously.

Ironically you challenged Rob Singer to prove ownership of his luxury RV.

What's wrong here?

Alan,

Are you doubting that KJ can count two tables at the same time or are you doubting that anyone can?

It's already been fairly well-established that KJ is reluctant to meet most people on the forums, so quit asking him.

Of course, they're going to be some conditions where you certainly can't count to tables, the chances are someone's not going to be dead on while doing so.

What exactly do you want someone to prove?

If you're doubting that there are people out there that can count two tables at once in certain locations in a way that will increase their value are completely wrong, because there are quite a few people that can do it.

Most of people that can accomplish this type of thing are not all that interested about proving anything to you. What's in it for them? If you're willing to make some kind of side bet, perhaps someone would be willing to take the challenge.

Quote: AxelWolf

Alan,

Are you doubting that KJ can count two tables at the same time or are you doubting that anyone can?

It's already been fairly well-established that KJ is reluctant to meet most people on the forums, so quit asking him.

Of course, they're going to be some conditions where you certainly can't count to tables, the chances are someone's not going to be dead on while doing so.

What exactly do you want someone to prove?

If you're doubting that there are people out there that can count two tables at once in certain locations in a way that will increase their value are completely wrong, because there are quite a few people that can do it.

Most of people that can accomplish this type of thing are not all that interested about proving anything to you. What's in it for them? If you're willing to make some kind of side bet, perhaps someone would be willing to take the challenge.

Kewlj told me one of the casinos where he can count two tables. I sat in the center seat he told me to sit in. I could not see how he could:

1. Maintain the count at his table while a dealer was playing at the next table

2. How he could see the surface of the other table the way the tables were arranged

3. How he could see the cards on another table unless there was a complete unobstructed view without players in the field of vision

4. How he could play his game without whiplashing his neck turning to see the other table

5. How he could maintain his count if the dealers were close to simultaneously dealing

In fact I challenge anyone... ANYONE... to demonstrate this ability without xray vision and the ability to see OVER THE EXTERIOR LIP of the table.

When I raised these points Kewlj backed off his claim to say he could not maintain an accurate count and then said the cards he missed were similar to cards remaining in the shoe.

Do you care to show me your two table counting ability, with or without the mirrors on the casino ceiling?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Kewlj told me one of the casinos where he can count two tables. I sat in the center seat he told me to sit in. I could not see how he could:

1. Maintain the count at his table while a dealer was playing at the next table

2. How he could see the surface of the other table the way the tables were arranged

3. How he could see the cards on another table unless there was a complete unobstructed view without players in the field of vision

4. How he could play his game without whiplashing his neck turning to see the other table

5. How he could maintain his count if the dealers were close to simultaneously dealing

In fact I challenge anyone... ANYONE... to demonstrate this ability without xray vision and the ability to see OVER THE EXTERIOR LIP of the table.

When I raised these points Kewlj backed off his claim to say he could not maintain an accurate count and then said the cards he missed were similar to cards remaining in the shoe.

Let's get a couple things straight here, Alan.

I most certainly never backed off my claim. If you miss a couple cards anytime you are backcounting or even just playing one table all that does is increase the number of unseen cards, essentially reducing the penetration, which isn't a good thing, but doesn't change the advantage that you will have by the "seen" cards. Stanford Wong proved this.

Xray vision: Complete nonsense. While playing at a single table a player sees and counts the cards by numbers in the manner that you are thinking about. But any longer distance counting, whether it is some sort of backcounting or whatnot, usually involved the player looking at/for pips and paint. Paint is obviously the Jacks, Queens, Kings and pips are the little Club, spade, diamond, heart symbols on the numbered cards. You may not know if a card is a 4 or a 5 but you know it is a low card counted as +1 by the low number of pips and the positioning of pips. When using pips and paint probably the biggest danger, the card most mistaken is a Ten. from a distance you might read that as a 8 or 9. One the lower end, the ace which counts as a high card (or separately) could be mistaken for a low card because of low number of pips, but the ace only having one single pip, right smack in the middle of the card makes it stand out, pretty much eliminating that possibility.

You are cherry-picking by bringing up the mirrored ceiling story. That was one very specific, unique situation, many years ago at a property in Atlantic City. I only told that story to demonstrate that you don't have to be close enough to actually see each card, only the pips and paint. Now what is remarkable about that very unique, specific story, is that many years later, I learned that another fellow card counter, had also been able to track a second table through the mirrors at that same location. Looking at the timeline he actually probably did it first, not that it matters because we didn't discover that each of us had that similar experience until years later.

And finally, you keep talking about seeing over this "lip". For anyone not knowing what Alan is speaking of, the lip is that rubbery or padded slightly raised area around the outer edge of the felt. The part where players probably have their elbows resting on. That lip is 2-3 inches high and the table rests what about 2.5 - 3 feet off the ground. So unless someone is 3 feet tall, or more precisely, their eyes are at the 3 foot level, the "lip" isn't a factor. For the life of me, I don't know why you keep bringing up the lip. Frankly, I don't know why you keep bringing any of this up. You don't play blackjack, at least not seriously, so you wouldn't know any of these things.

Quote: AxelWolf

Are you doubting that KJ can count two tables at the same time or are you doubting that anyone can?

when this discussion originated several years ago on another forum that we were all on, it sure seemed like Alan was out to have some sort of "gottch ya" moment with me didn't it? I mean when that original discussion occurred Alan jumped up at 3am and drove to the strip, took blurry pictures of empty tables, and said "see it can't be done". lol

Quote: AxelWolf

It's already been fairly well-established that KJ is reluctant to meet most people on the forums, so quit asking him.

Thank you for this. More and more I am thinking I should meet and maybe socialize with some AP's especially here in Vegas, in a small group. Every time I consider it, along comes something like this and I immediately go back to "why?"

Quote: AxelWolf

Of course, they're going to be some conditions where you certainly can't count to tables, the chances are someone's not going to be dead on while doing so.

Thank you for this as well. I have always said "when conditions permit". Alan just chooses to ignore that.

Quote: AxelWolf

What exactly do you want someone to prove?

If you're doubting that there are people out there that can count two tables at once in certain locations in a way that will increase their value are completely wrong, because there are quite a few people that can do it.

Most of people that can accomplish this type of thing are not all that interested about proving anything to you. What's in it for them? If you're willing to make some kind of side bet, perhaps someone would be willing to take the challenge.

I gotta say, overall, this was a great post. Objective and fair. :)

Quote: AlanMendelson

I don't play TV journalist. I was one winning national awards before you were born.

I am aware you were a TV journalist. I apologize if my wording came off in such a way as to offend you. But in all honesty, I no longer consider what you do journalism. In my mind it is more like some sort of paid "pitchman". And that's ok. I just find it odd that when it is convenient, you go back to describing yourself as a journalist. A journalist is objective, looking for the truth. You gave that up long ago.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Ironically you challenged Rob Singer to prove ownership of his luxury RV.

What's wrong here?

I also want to clear up the idea that I go around challenging players and asking for proof. If someone on one of these gambling forums makes claims that defy the mathematics, like he was able to win millions of dollars over many years playing negative expectation games, damn straight, I want to know what combination of lucky rabbits feet and magic potions he used to defy the math. In other words, I only challenge claims that can't be.....mathematically.

As far as the RV situation mentioned, come on, the guy took pictures of himself inside an RV at the RV dealership, claiming it was his! lol.

This can be easily resolved. Anyone who is reading this go to the casino of your choice, sit at a middle seat, and report back how well you can see the cards at the nearest table.

You must be sitting. Standing behind a table doesn't count. Redietz once reported what he could see at two tables when standing.

If you can view the cards at the nearest table while sitting, proceed to step two:

Next, watch the cards at the other table while you watch the cards at your own table. Dont miss any hands at your own table. Dont let them catch you turning your head at an angle to view the other table so they might get wind of what you're doing or you delay your own game. And for heaven's sake, dont let any other player get in your field of vision.

Report back.

Just do it. Judge for yourself.

As far as I know, he didn't say you couldn't delay your own game. He explicitly mentioned that it's not necessarily thing to be perfect, so yeah, if someone else is in your field of vision it's not a big deal. The conditions have to be right. Instead of making a straw man argument it might do good to at least consider that it is possible under the right circumstances.

Kewlj, from my limited experience with it, I can't tell you how great it is to meet other APs in person. To get a better sense of community, comraderie and get a better feel for who the people you've been messaging are. AP can be lonely sometimes and sharing the experiences can be really nice!

Quote: Minty

As far as I know, he didn't say you couldn't delay your own game. He explicitly mentioned that it's not necessarily thing to be perfect, so yeah, if someone else is in your field of vision it's not a big deal. The conditions have to be right. Instead of making a straw man argument it might do good to at least consider that it is possible under the right circumstances.

Kewlj, from my limited experience with it, I can't tell you how great it is to meet other APs in person. To get a better sense of community, comraderie and get a better feel for who the people you've been messaging are. AP can be lonely sometimes and sharing the experiences can be really nice!

The right circumstances? Yes. I know a small casino in Compton, California where they have three blackjack tables arranged in a tight circle and the dealers literally stand back to back. Yes, there you can sit and see the cards on the other table to your left or right.

BUT KEWLJ HAD ME GO TO TREASURE ISLAND where the tables were in a straight row with four to five feet apart and you'd have to twist your head like Linda Blair in the Exorcist to see the action on your left or right.

GO TO A CASINO AND SEE FOR YOURSELF.

JUST DO IT.

First off, that's a great reference, thank you.

I'll be in the area in the near future. I'll see what I can see. I've never made the attempt before, but I could see it being quite practical. Wouldn't be as practical right now with the limited seating.

Alan, I can appreciate that tracking a second table seems illogical to you, so I am trying not to take your challenge of me personally, but it really does seem pretty personal. You have hung on to this for years now, continuing to challenge me, despite that a number of known successful blackjack players have confirmed that they have at times also employed this technique.

Have you given some thought that this just isn't your field of expertise, and you just don't know what is possible? I mean it just seems like you are just hell bent on proving me wrong about something you just don't know about.

Quote: kewlj

Alan, I can appreciate that tracking a second table seems illogical to you, so I am trying not to take your challenge of me personally, but it really does seem pretty personal. You have hung on to this for years now, continuing to challenge me, despite that a number of known successful blackjack players have confirmed that they have at times also employed this technique.

Have you given some thought that this just isn't your field of expertise, and you just don't know what is possible? I mean it just seems like you are just hell bent on proving me wrong about something you just don't know about.

I've hung onto it because I actually sat in a middle seat at tables at TI and Caesars and Red Rock and Suncoast and Bellagio and I couldn't twist my head far enough to see all the cards and then there was a problem with the timing of the dealers dealing and other players affecting the field of vision.

VERY SIMPLY: INSTEAD OF EVERYONE TELLING ME IM WRONG GO SIT AT A TABLE YOURSELF.

There are no plexiglass dividers at Red Rock.

Counting a second table is very doable, not in all circumstances, but some. There are plenty of APs who do it. And I may be wrong, but I believe I introduced the concept to KJ about 15 years ago in online discussion/emails back and forth. It depends on table position, where players are sitting, etc. I haven't read this entire thread, so I don't know if KJ mentioned it, but we've both played at a casino in the east that has a mirrored ceiling over the pit. It is possible to count a second table across the pit using the ceiling.

Speaking of the east, back in the days of Sands AC, the pit was visible from an open second floor/balcony. A spotter could stand up there, count 2 tables, and signal his teammate where to go.

KJ - I don't know why you are trying to convince Alan of anything (though I do agree that a video of the ASM hack would be most revealing). From the limited number of posts of his that I've read, he appears to be a hack/compulsive gambler, not an AP. Carrying on endless discussions like this is clearly a no-win, and is what got you into trouble on multiple forums in the first place. I suggest you let it go and let Alan wallow in his ignorance.

Quote: 21forme

he appears to be a hack/compulsive gambler,

Why are you libeling me? You don't know me. I don't know you. I doubt we've ever met.

Quote: 21forme

a video of the ASM hack would be most revealing

Regarding the ASM's clumping of 10-value cards...during the period when the clumped section of the shoe is being dealt, do either the dealer or players have an advantage?

Coach:
Are you asking about the "theory" of clumping? If you are, the general conspiracy theory is that if the table is in a group/clump of high cards then everyone gets a 20 or 21, including the dealer and he pushes or wins against everyone... if he has a BJ. In a clump or grouping of low cards, most people would be playing basic strategy and not draw a card against the dealers face up low card. Then since no one draws, thinking dealer would bust, he draws out due to being in a low card clump.

The theory of clumping has probably been around since the 80's BUT in Professional BJ, Wong has a section on his analysis that totally debunks it.

Vegas might as well be closed right now - it's 113 degrees there. Who would want to go in that heat?

Las Vegas hits 113, breaks daily record, ties hottest day of 2020
https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/weather/las-vegas-hits-113-breaks-daily-record-ties-hottest-day-of-2020-2095498/

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why are you libeling me? You don't know me. I don't know you. I doubt we've ever met.

What I know of you is what I've read on the forum. I know you've been gambling a long time and in a recent post, you wrote about playing craps and being welcome in all casinos. Libel requires a false statement that defames. What have I said that's not true?