Lawsuit over cash out tickets

That argument could be successfully made that proves the intent behind the lack of coin was to defraud the patron of the coin. (1) No coins in the redemption machine (2) Understaffed cashier window causing long lines and delays at cashing out. (2) Short expiration time deadlines, in an industry that caters to travelers and out of state visitors. tickets.

Gene

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: DRich

Quote: GenoDRPh

Would make for an interesting court filing, if the casino took patrons' money almost right away at the tables when cashing in to a game, but made patrons wait in a long line due to under staffing at the cage to cash out.

Gene

I don't think that case would have a chance of winning. The court would just tell you to go play somewhere else.
link to original post

You're thinking like a gambler.

This suit has a good chance of winning.
link to original post

I'm thinking like someone who has gone through the courts and actually filed a lawsuit and this case has almost zero chance of success.

First let me state my personal opinion that the Casinos are INDEED profiting from the laziness of patrons and are counting on it.

But that said the case has very little merits.

First look at the legal argument they make from the article.



Breach of contract? Customers can get the same exchange for cash. The argument is they are too lazy to get on line for small amounts

Conversion? Same argument as above. If people got on line at the cashier they wouldn't be damaged.

I mean it's not worth going through the other two arguments. Same answer. With number four patrons deserve the right to be paid and they will if they get in line at the cashier

Furthermore the damages. What are total damages to the plaintiff? Nineteen cents. Literally that is what she would be entitled to receive if victorious

I am certain the VAST MAJORITY of people who would have money due if the suit is victorious would also be too lazy to file their claim forms!

In fact it will probably be argued that this is really a play by the law firm to grab the money from the Casinos rather help their plaintiff get her money back.

The expiration date is printed right on the vouchers. Where is intent to defraud the patron?

As others pointed out table games players have to redeem their chips at the cashier. So the process for redemption is long established. If the Casinos wished they probably could insist that all Tito be redeemed at the cashier and remove the redemption machines. Would patrons with a few hundred bucks in Tito be entitled to a lawsuit because they were too lazy to collect their money?

My prediction:. MGM will ask for a dismissal and it will be granted. One cause for dismissal will be that if there is any dispute pertaining to payout and perhaps involving a short thirty days until expiration, that is the purview of the gaming commission to enforce or promulgate rules and regulations and not for the courts.

What's the charge if I take my 3 cent Tito ticket fold 3 times and jam it in the nearest slot machine bill accepter thereby jamming it up.

I will claim I'm giving it to the casino free.

It's the expiration date that will get the attention of the court.

There is no expiration date on money. Why should casinos have an expiration date for its scrip that represents money?

The expiration date violates equal protection under the law because the player's money had no expiration date.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: DRich

Quote: GenoDRPh

Would make for an interesting court filing, if the casino took patrons' money almost right away at the tables when cashing in to a game, but made patrons wait in a long line due to under staffing at the cage to cash out.

Gene

I don't think that case would have a chance of winning. The court would just tell you to go play somewhere else.
link to original post

You're thinking like a gambler.

This suit has a good chance of winning.
link to original post

I'm thinking like someone who has gone through the courts and actually filed a lawsuit and this case has almost zero chance of success.

First let me state my personal opinion that the Casinos are INDEED profiting from the laziness of patrons and are counting on it.

But that said the case has very little merits.

First look at the legal argument they make from the article.



Breach of contract? Customers can get the same exchange for cash. The argument is they are too lazy to get on line for small amounts

Conversion? Same argument as above. If people got on line at the cashier they wouldn't be damaged.

I mean it's not worth going through the other two arguments. Same answer. With number four patrons deserve the right to be paid and they will if they get in line at the cashier

Furthermore the damages. What are total damages to the plaintiff? Nineteen cents. Literally that is what she would be entitled to receive if victorious

I am certain the VAST MAJORITY of people who would have money due if the suit is victorious would also be too lazy to file their claim forms!

In fact it will probably be argued that this is really a play by the law firm to grab the money from the Casinos rather help their plaintiff get her money back.

The expiration date is printed right on the vouchers. Where is intent to defraud the patron?

As others pointed out table games players have to redeem their chips at the cashier. So the process for redemption is long established. If the Casinos wished they probably could insist that all Tito be redeemed at the cashier and remove the redemption machines. Would patrons with a few hundred bucks in Tito be entitled to a lawsuit because they were too lazy to collect their money?

My prediction:. MGM will ask for a dismissal and it will be granted. One cause for dismissal will be that if there is any dispute pertaining to payout and perhaps involving a short thirty days until expiration, that is the purview of the gaming commission to enforce or promulgate rules and regulations and not for the courts.
link to original post

Are customers too lazy to get their cash at the cashier, or do casinos make it much more difficult to get their cash at the cage, compared to the redemption machines?

Is the expiration date window so short as to make it almost meaningless, or make the patrons expend significant extra time and resources to claim their lawful winnings? Having an expiration date is fine, but the date must give patrons a meaningful opportunity to claim their winnings.

Casino could remove the redemption machines and redeem all TITOs and casino chips at the window. That would treat all patrons equally. They could make all patrons wait in the line to get paid, and pay out to the exact penny. But that's not what they are doing here.

Of note is that Boyd Gaming elected to continue the normal use of the redemption machines, paying out to the penny, even during the coin shortage. If they could do it, why couldn't the defendants?

I make no comment about the law firms expectation of getting paid. Got a problem with law firms getting paid for their services?

Gene

Quote: AlanMendelson

It's the expiration date that will get the attention of the court.

There is no expiration date on money. Why should casinos have an expiration date for its scrip that represents money?

The expiration date violates equal protection under the law because the player's money had no expiration date.
link to original post

Just of note. Gift cards (issued by a company just like a casino is a company) stay good for 5 years. Money Orders (which I thought expired) don't expire at all.

I knew I saw a story on gift card. Look at all the money just sitting out there. At least those companies can't collect it in 30 or 90 days.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2022/09/06/unused-gift-cards-21-billion/8005788001/

"Nearly half of Americans have $21 billion in unused gift cards, survey finds"

Quote: rxwine

Quote: AlanMendelson

It's the expiration date that will get the attention of the court.

There is no expiration date on money. Why should casinos have an expiration date for its scrip that represents money?

The expiration date violates equal protection under the law because the player's money had no expiration date.
link to original post

Just of note. Gift cards (issued by a company just like a casino is a company) stay good for 5 years. Money Orders (which I thought expired) don't expire at all.
link to original post

Effective August 2010 gift cards and gift certificates in California cannot have an expiration date.

Google it.

Under the laws of California, Connecticut, Florida, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, Oregon and Rhode Island, gift certificates never expire.Apr 12, 2010

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: DRich

Quote: GenoDRPh

Would make for an interesting court filing, if the casino took patrons' money almost right away at the tables when cashing in to a game, but made patrons wait in a long line due to under staffing at the cage to cash out.

Gene

I don't think that case would have a chance of winning. The court would just tell you to go play somewhere else.
link to original post

You're thinking like a gambler.

This suit has a good chance of winning.
link to original post

I'm thinking like someone who has gone through the courts and actually filed a lawsuit and this case has almost zero chance of success.

First let me state my personal opinion that the Casinos are INDEED profiting from the laziness of patrons and are counting on it.

But that said the case has very little merits.

First look at the legal argument they make from the article.



Breach of contract? Customers can get the same exchange for cash. The argument is they are too lazy to get on line for small amounts

Conversion? Same argument as above. If people got on line at the cashier they wouldn't be damaged.

I mean it's not worth going through the other two arguments. Same answer. With number four patrons deserve the right to be paid and they will if they get in line at the cashier

Furthermore the damages. What are total damages to the plaintiff? Nineteen cents. Literally that is what she would be entitled to receive if victorious

I am certain the VAST MAJORITY of people who would have money due if the suit is victorious would also be too lazy to file their claim forms!

In fact it will probably be argued that this is really a play by the law firm to grab the money from the Casinos rather help their plaintiff get her money back.

The expiration date is printed right on the vouchers. Where is intent to defraud the patron?

As others pointed out table games players have to redeem their chips at the cashier. So the process for redemption is long established. If the Casinos wished they probably could insist that all Tito be redeemed at the cashier and remove the redemption machines. Would patrons with a few hundred bucks in Tito be entitled to a lawsuit because they were too lazy to collect their money?

My prediction:. MGM will ask for a dismissal and it will be granted. One cause for dismissal will be that if there is any dispute pertaining to payout and perhaps involving a short thirty days until expiration, that is the purview of the gaming commission to enforce or promulgate rules and regulations and not for the courts.
link to original post

Are customers too lazy to get their cash at the cashier, or do casinos make it much more difficult to get their cash at the cage, compared to the redemption machines?

Is the expiration date window so short as to make it almost meaningless, or make the patrons expend significant extra time and resources to claim their lawful winnings? Having an expiration date is fine, but the date must give patrons a meaningful opportunity to claim their winnings.

Casino could remove the redemption machines and redeem all TITOs and casino chips at the window. That would treat all patrons equally. They could make all patrons wait in the line to get paid, and pay out to the exact penny. But that's not what they are doing here.

Of note is that Boyd Gaming elected to continue the normal use of the redemption machines, paying out to the penny, even during the coin shortage. If they could do it, why couldn't the defendants?

I make no comment about the law firms expectation of getting paid. Got a problem with law firms getting paid for their services?

Gene
link to original post

I understand your arguments and I agree with them both morally and philosophically.

But legally the courts don't make those distinctions.

Thirty days notice? Sound familiar? That's considered plenty of time to collect a payment.

Your argument that patrons can't redeem them within thirty days because they are tourists doesn't hold water. They passively didn't redeem their vouchers. They could have if they wanted too.

Let's ask a question. When there is a class action judgement, announcements are made for people who qualify to act and guess what? Within a certain timeframe. If these same patrons don't claim the prospective class action judgement, should a second law firm sue the first law firm for making it difficult to collect because there was a shall we say an expiration?

But ultimately beyond the fact the patrons could get their money if they wished by standing in line,

And beyond the fact that plenty of patrons of table games do exactly that and don't threaten lawsuits

The real legal hurdle is that payments and how they are performed are almost exclusively the jurisdiction of the gaming commission. Mark my words, the court is going to cede the case to the gaming commission, and the commission will probably rule in favor of the Casinos, perhaps with the caveat that thirty days is too short and the vouchers have to be honored for a full year.

And do you think these tourists will fly to Vegas to redeem their nineteen cents?

BTW, another reason why the redemption issue isn't going to fly is because that could set s dangerous precedent. For example, a family argues that the line was too long at Chucky cheese and they were unable to redeem their tickets for gifts and their child was left broken hearted.

You ever see the line at a crowded Chucky cheese?

Or a class action against Disney world. Patrons paid good money for a fun day at the park but they made it difficult to enjoy rides because patrons had to stand on line. Patrons have an expectation of not having to wait on long lines which is pretty much the entire basis of the argument these attorneys are making.

Come on!

Of course courts make those decisions.

Quote: Darkoz

And do you think these tourists will fly to Vegas to redeem their nineteen cents?

Aw, but then it becomes reasonable that a visitor might make a return visit before then. But I think 18 months should be the bare minimum.

Analogies to ChuckECheese or Disney or whatever are not applicable, Those places aren't casinos, and those places don't treat patrons differently based on the method they wish to claim their own money' And, no, to my knowledge I've never been in a ChuckECheese. Analogies about the time limits regarding class actions lawsuits and how to participate are also non sequitors. The process for class action lawsuits are set by the laws and the courts.

The patrons tried to redeem their tickets...in the redemption machines and were literally shortchanged. They could have stood in line, but the casinos made it overly burdensome to do so.

Every gaming commission in the US that I am aware of makes the casinos honor their patrons payouts. And the law makes it a crime not to.

And, no, patrons aren't going to fly to Vegas for collect their change, which is the whole point of the casinos trying to stiff them in the first place. You argue best when you argue my point.

Gene

Quote: GenoDRPh

Are customers too lazy to get their cash at the cashier, or do casinos make it much more difficult to get their cash at the cage, compared to the redemption machines?
link to original post

This is the crux of the issue.

Speaking from my understanding of the situation, none of what I am about to say constitutes legal advice; I am not a lawyer, proving they are understaffed intentionally would be hard.

Quote: GenoDRPh

The patrons tried to redeem their tickets...in the redemption machines and were literally shortchanged. They could have stood in line, but the casinos made it overly burdensome to do so.

Every gaming commission in the US that I am aware of makes the casinos honor their patrons payouts. And the law makes it a crime not to.


link to original post

The two statements you make above are contradictory.

The gaming commission makes the Casinos honor the patron payouts.

Right above that you state they do. The patron just has to go to the cashier.

I should also point out that "waiting in line" is not a guarantee. I have seen plenty of cashier lines where one or two people were in front or even none at all

To assume the Casino has long lines at all times is ridiculous. How is it so burdensome if the line happens to be non-existent?

Aside from some lines during peak hours how is going to the cashier overly burdensome.

Point of fact, most Casino I note make their redemption machines inoperable between late night hours. Usually two to six AM. That might be an East Coast thing. Posters here can confirm.

So are those people able to sue because at two am they were inconvenienced by having to go the cashier for their larger ticket redemption.

At any rate all the above reasons are again moot. The courts will almost certainly decide this isn't a civil jurisdiction issue but a gaming commission issue and dismiss the case remanding it to the gaming commission.

DarkOz analysis is correct.

References in this thread to “equal protection” is a misunderstanding of what that legal term means.

That is all. Carry on.

Quote: unJon

DarkOz analysis is correct.

References in this thread to “equal protection” is a misunderstanding of what that legal term means.

That is all. Carry on.
link to original post

Care to elucidate?

Gene

duplicate deleted

Duplicate deleted

Only the casino didn't follow the GC rules. They gave whole dollars, but not coins. They didn't pay to the penny.Making patrons take additional steps to receive coins violates the rules.

Why does the cashier have coin, where they are needed less to cash out tickets, but the machines-which are specifically designed and installed to be used to cash out tickets and pay out coins-didn't have any coins?

Again, posted times where the redemption machines are scheduled to be inoperable is a non-sequitur. Willing to bet those times were chosen because the cashier window isn't busy, so the timeliness of redemption isn't an issue.

Courts do have jurisdiction over this, and willing to bet the GC will say the casino needs to pay out to the penny promptly, and not make patrons take extra steps to receive coins.

Gene

Isn't the simple solution for casinos to pay out coins in their machines again?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Isn't the simple solution for casinos to pay out coins in their machines again?
link to original post

I agree. I also note that Boyd casinos never stopped dispensing coins from their machines. If they could do it, the other casinos can too.

Gene

Quote: GenoDRPh

Only the casino didn't follow the GC rules. They gave whole dollars, but not coins. They didn't pay to the penny.Making patrons take additional steps to receive coins violates the rules.

Again, posted times where the redemption machines are scheduled to be inoperable is a non-sequitur. Willing to bet those times were chosen because the cashier window isn't busy, so the timeliness of redemption isn't an issue.

Courts do have jurisdiction over this, and willing to bet the GC will say the casino needs to pay out to the penny promptly, and not make patrons take extra steps to receive coins.

Gene
link to original post

In answer to the first paragraph above, which rules and for that matter which gaming commission are you referring too?

The lawsuit names all the MGM Casinos in Las Vegas AND MGM Detroit AND MGM Springfield and MGM Borgata in Atlantic City!

Again I foresee the case will not only be dismissed due to the gaming commission having jurisdiction BUT also because multiple gaming commissions are involved!!!

Also, I note that the lawsuit is filed in Mississippi HOWEVER the MGM Beau Rivage isn't named. As well the MGM Empire Casino in NY isn't mentioned.

I wonder why that is? Certainly the lawyers in Mississippi have heard of the Beau Rivage in Mississippi?

I do know that the NY MGM Empire has redemption machines that give Tito's for change EXCEPT for the ones at the actual entrances. I suspect (don't know for certain however) that the Gaming commission of NY may insist on the choice being available to patrons. So anyone who wants their change without going to the cashier just chooses to wait until they are leaving the Casino!

If so, that's going to be another issue. If MGM shows that they are following the GC rules of individual markets they will use that to show they are indeed in compliance with each market.

As to the second paragraph above, the gaming machines being turned off is hardly a non-sequitur. You state the times are posted for when the machines will be off (actually I never see signs posted. You just find all the machines out of service) but if the issue is that the time for machines to be off is posted then the argument is that each voucher has posted directly on the paper that the coin vouchers are good for only thirty days AND I see all the redemption machines stating they no longer hand out coins!!!! So info IS posted!

With that notice why would a patron who wants their change waste time at the redemption kiosk. Just go straight to the cashier. Remember in a crowded Casino there will be lines at BOTH! It's really dragging the point that this is extra work when a patron just has to actually read the sign at the redemption machines and make a conscious choice to only get on ONE LINE or the other (cashier or redemption)

As to the third paragraph above, I fail to understand the comments. If the court has jurisdiction, then how can your first paragraph ("Only the Casino didn't follow the GC rules) have any meaning? When a casino fails to follow the gaming commission rules, the courts have almost unanimously ruled that the onus is on the gaming commission to supervise, and provide sanctions. Usually this is actually written into the legislation that gives the gaming commission powers in each state.

And here, once again is a lawsuit involving multiple gaming commissions each with different legislative charters.

I practically guarantee this case is going to be dismissed with the charge to go to each and every gaming commission involved.

If MGM and the other casinos were smart they'd return coins to their redemption machines before there are more lawsuits and other regulations imposed on them.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: GenoDRPh

Only the casino didn't follow the GC rules. They gave whole dollars, but not coins. They didn't pay to the penny.Making patrons take additional steps to receive coins violates the rules.

Again, posted times where the redemption machines are scheduled to be inoperable is a non-sequitur. Willing to bet those times were chosen because the cashier window isn't busy, so the timeliness of redemption isn't an issue.

Courts do have jurisdiction over this, and willing to bet the GC will say the casino needs to pay out to the penny promptly, and not make patrons take extra steps to receive coins.

Gene
link to original post

In answer to the first paragraph above, which rules and for that matter which gaming commission are you referring too?

The lawsuit names all the MGM Casinos in Las Vegas AND MGM Detroit AND MGM Springfield and MGM Borgata in Atlantic City!

Again I foresee the case will not only be dismissed due to the gaming commission having jurisdiction BUT also because multiple gaming commissions are involved!!!

Also, I note that the lawsuit is filed in Mississippi HOWEVER the MGM Beau Rivage isn't named. As well the MGM Empire Casino in NY isn't mentioned.

I wonder why that is? Certainly the lawyers in Mississippi have heard of the Beau Rivage in Mississippi?

I do know that the NY MGM Empire has redemption machines that give Tito's for change EXCEPT for the ones at the actual entrances. I suspect (don't know for certain however) that the Gaming commission of NY may insist on the choice being available to patrons. So anyone who wants their change without going to the cashier just chooses to wait until they are leaving the Casino!

If so, that's going to be another issue. If MGM shows that they are following the GC rules of individual markets they will use that to show they are indeed in compliance with each market.

As to the second paragraph above, the gaming machines being turned off is hardly a non-sequitur. You state the times are posted for when the machines will be off (actually I never see signs posted. You just find all the machines out of service) but if the issue is that the time for machines to be off is posted then the argument is that each voucher has posted directly on the paper that the coin vouchers are good for only thirty days AND I see all the redemption machines stating they no longer hand out coins!!!! So info IS posted!

With that notice why would a patron who wants their change waste time at the redemption kiosk. Just go straight to the cashier. Remember in a crowded Casino there will be lines at BOTH! It's really dragging the point that this is extra work when a patron just has to actually read the sign at the redemption machines and make a conscious choice to only get on ONE LINE or the other (cashier or redemption)

As to the third paragraph above, I fail to understand the comments. If the court has jurisdiction, then how can your first paragraph ("Only the Casino didn't follow the GC rules) have any meaning? When a casino fails to follow the gaming commission rules, the courts have almost unanimously ruled that the onus is on the gaming commission to supervise, and provide sanctions. Usually this is actually written into the legislation that gives the gaming commission powers in each state.

And here, once again is a lawsuit involving multiple gaming commissions each with different legislative charters.

I practically guarantee this case is going to be dismissed with the charge to go to each and every gaming commission involved.
link to original post

I refer to the GC rules and/or laws in each jurisdiction that mandate the casinos promptly pay out all lawful winnings.

As for why which casinos were named in the complaint and others omitted, and why it was filed in Federal court. I'm sure the complaint itself can answer that question. Could be as simple as those are the casinos that engage in the practice at issue, and the others do not. Could also be the attorneys have not yet found class members who have played in those casinos. I also note that class action lawsuits are filed in Federal courts. Speculation abounds. The complaint itself may provide answers.

Fact is the casinos in question made it harder to redeem for coin, which can be argued led to an increase in patrons not redeeming for coin as too burdensome, This can be argued led to an increase in revenue for the casinos of monies that properly belonged to patrons, This can be argued violated the laws regarding paying patrons promptly.

I've made it as clear as I can. I shall now avoid this topic until such time as the courts take action on the complaint in question.

Gene

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: darkoz

Quote: GenoDRPh

Only the casino didn't follow the GC rules. They gave whole dollars, but not coins. They didn't pay to the penny.Making patrons take additional steps to receive coins violates the rules.

Again, posted times where the redemption machines are scheduled to be inoperable is a non-sequitur. Willing to bet those times were chosen because the cashier window isn't busy, so the timeliness of redemption isn't an issue.

Courts do have jurisdiction over this, and willing to bet the GC will say the casino needs to pay out to the penny promptly, and not make patrons take extra steps to receive coins.

Gene
link to original post

In answer to the first paragraph above, which rules and for that matter which gaming commission are you referring too?

The lawsuit names all the MGM Casinos in Las Vegas AND MGM Detroit AND MGM Springfield and MGM Borgata in Atlantic City!

Again I foresee the case will not only be dismissed due to the gaming commission having jurisdiction BUT also because multiple gaming commissions are involved!!!

Also, I note that the lawsuit is filed in Mississippi HOWEVER the MGM Beau Rivage isn't named. As well the MGM Empire Casino in NY isn't mentioned.

I wonder why that is? Certainly the lawyers in Mississippi have heard of the Beau Rivage in Mississippi?

I do know that the NY MGM Empire has redemption machines that give Tito's for change EXCEPT for the ones at the actual entrances. I suspect (don't know for certain however) that the Gaming commission of NY may insist on the choice being available to patrons. So anyone who wants their change without going to the cashier just chooses to wait until they are leaving the Casino!

If so, that's going to be another issue. If MGM shows that they are following the GC rules of individual markets they will use that to show they are indeed in compliance with each market.

As to the second paragraph above, the gaming machines being turned off is hardly a non-sequitur. You state the times are posted for when the machines will be off (actually I never see signs posted. You just find all the machines out of service) but if the issue is that the time for machines to be off is posted then the argument is that each voucher has posted directly on the paper that the coin vouchers are good for only thirty days AND I see all the redemption machines stating they no longer hand out coins!!!! So info IS posted!

With that notice why would a patron who wants their change waste time at the redemption kiosk. Just go straight to the cashier. Remember in a crowded Casino there will be lines at BOTH! It's really dragging the point that this is extra work when a patron just has to actually read the sign at the redemption machines and make a conscious choice to only get on ONE LINE or the other (cashier or redemption)

As to the third paragraph above, I fail to understand the comments. If the court has jurisdiction, then how can your first paragraph ("Only the Casino didn't follow the GC rules) have any meaning? When a casino fails to follow the gaming commission rules, the courts have almost unanimously ruled that the onus is on the gaming commission to supervise, and provide sanctions. Usually this is actually written into the legislation that gives the gaming commission powers in each state.

And here, once again is a lawsuit involving multiple gaming commissions each with different legislative charters.

I practically guarantee this case is going to be dismissed with the charge to go to each and every gaming commission involved.
link to original post

I refer to the GC rules and/or laws in each jurisdiction that mandate the casinos promptly pay out all lawful winnings.

Gene
link to original post

They certainly don't define "promptly" in terms of a few minutes spent at a cashier's cage versus a redemption machine.

And you can choose which line to get on. It's certainly not a burden to get on one line versus another.

Your argument is ultimately a losing one so it doesn't surprise me you now choose not to argue anymore.

Talk to you in two years when the case is dismissed, maybe sooner

I just don't want to go back and forth in circular argument where all parties are intractable in their positions, especially with those who think it's okay for casinos to stiff people. I'd rather spend that time learning Ultimate Texas Hold "em, since I've been myopic in my playing and only playing craps and VP, having now realized that UTH, Miss Stud and TCP aren't as intimidating as I thought.

I await the post in 2 years with an update.

Gene

Quote: GenoDRPh

Making patrons take additional steps to receive coins violates the rules.

Can you state which Gaming rule that violates? I am not being argumentative, I have just never seen that rule and I worked in Gaming Compliance in Nevada.

Quote: GenoDRPh

I just don't want to go back and forth in circular argument where all parties are intractable in their positions, especially with those who think it's okay for casinos to stiff people. I'd rather spend that time learning Ultimate Texas Hold "em, since I've been myopic in my playing and only playing craps and VP, having now realized that UTH, Miss Stud and TCP aren't as intimidating as I thought.

I await the post in 2 years with an update.

Gene
link to original post

Understood.

I also agree with you that the casino does it to stiff people.

I just don't think the law will side against them.

I hope the MGM loses, but predict they will win.

As others have pointed out, it's the expiration date that bothers me on the change. The players made the effort to cash the original ticket and the casino didn't make good on the change. If they are going to march the patron across the casino and make him stand in line, it adds insult to injury to put a deadline on it.

So I am wondering if this is just a NYC thing but don't you guys have an unwritten law or rule about pay it forward?

I mean it wouldn't surprise me because most outsiders from NYC don't know the proper way to ride an escalator in NYC either.

It's usually what causes people visiting to get rude responses from what is actually a very cooperative group of 8 million people.

Here, when the voucher for cash prints out, we just place it on the redemption machines so the next person adds it to theirs.

Just my last visit I had about ninety cents and the person in front of me left a thirty five cent voucher behind. I added his to mine to make the dollar and then left the new resultant voucher behind for the next person.

I mean you guys don't do the pay it forward? Is that really just a NY thing like the proper way to ride an escalator?

Tickets from Mgm Springfield don’t expire until 365 days

Here is a fair solution I’ve seen some casinos put into place.

Have 1 or more kiosks that do dispense change while the others do not.

That way if a customer wants change without waiting in a long cashier line, they can go to that specific kiosk.

Since the casino will only have 1 or a couple of kiosks that give out change, they will still realize a savings from not having all their kiosks dispense change.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but is it that hard to play a machine until you have an even amount?

Quote: billryan

Perhaps I'm missing something, but is it that hard to play a machine until you have an even amount?
link to original post

Depends on the specific casino, really.

For example, if you're an AP who plays variable-state machines, you'll often end up with numbers of pennies such that the terminal number is not, '5,' or '0,', so in order to get rid of that without dropping to the next dollar amount, you would have to find a machine that allows bets in individual pennies, which are decreasing in number.

I've always hated change anyway, so it's always been my tendency to, "Play up," or, "Play down," to the nearest dollar amounts, so I know that machines upon which as low as single pennies can be bet sometimes exist. Increasingly, even, "Penny machines," have minimum bets of thirty cents, forty cents, fifty cents and sometimes even more.

I actually like PA Skill Games in this regard as they (at least, most) will only cash out the highest whole dollar amount possible and the rest simply remains on the machine for the next player. With that, money is not actually being taken away from players (as a whole) so I think that is a fine way to do things.

Of course, states like Colorado and Pennsylvania would see taking/using those credits as technically a form of theft, which Colorado has actively prosecuted in the past, so maybe such a system would not work in those states unless the laws change. Pennsylvania technically has a no, "Finders keepers," law, but I've never heard of it being enforced for sub-$1.00 amounts as a practical matter. Either way, I always play it safe in PA and make sure to cash out a ticket and clearly put it on top of the machine if I intend to play that machine.

In Colorado, you basically MUST do this, or it is quite possible they will actually prosecute you. It has actually happened, ridiculously enough.

Here's an article that addresses the Colorado thing in more detail that got a lot of interaction and I thought was pretty good:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/know-the-laws-part-II/

Quote: billryan

Perhaps I'm missing something, but is it that hard to play a machine until you have an even amount?
link to original post

You have never played slots?

The short answer is yes it's terribly difficult.

The long answer is the line payouts are not in whole dollars so each spin hands you back pennies.

If I am on a dollar machine it's not an issue. Let's say I wager $100 and win back $20. I'm always paid in whole dollars increments.

The same wager at a penny machine would be $1 and win back $.20

If that's what is in the machine now what? To get a whole amount you would have to slip in another dollar and spin again. You do slip in one dollar so you have $1.20 in the machine. Wager is for a dollar. You spin and win nothing. Now you are back to only having$.20

Stick in another dollar take another$1 wager. Win $1.60. now you have$1.80 in the machine.

Spin again, lose. Now you only have$.80 in the machine. Add a dollar. Spin again.

This goes on and on. Assuming the player didn't gamble to his last dollar anyway.

You make $20,000 a week, some weeks, not every week but often enough that you claim you do, and you worry about missing twenty cents?
I don't play many slots. If I want mindless entertainment, I can watch Judge Judy, or spar with you. When I did play slots, I'd leave vouchers like that for my maid.
As Grandpa said- pick up every penny you find, and eventually, they make a hole in your pocket for your bills to fall thru.
I don't see this as a problem worth the traction it is getting. The evil casinos are once again ripping off their customers. It's another dog bites man story.

Quote: billryan

Perhaps I'm missing something, but is it that hard to play a machine until you have an even amount?
link to original post

It's easy on $1, $5, $20, and similar denomination machines.

It's surprisingly tricky to bet 47 cents on a modern penny machine.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Quote: billryan

You make $20,000 a week, some weeks, not every week but often enough that you claim you do, and you worry about missing twenty cents?
I don't play many slots. If I want mindless entertainment, I can watch Judge Judy, or spar with you. When I did play slots, I'd leave vouchers like that for my maid.
As Grandpa said- pick up every penny you find, and eventually, they make a hole in your pocket for your bills to fall thru.
I don't see this as a problem worth the traction it is getting. The evil casinos are once again ripping off their customers. It's another dog bites man story.
link to original post

Are you a troll?

I never said I was concerned with twenty cents, dufus.

You asked if it was difficult to get to an even dollar amount. I explained how a person in general would have difficulty.

Even making$20,000 a week, I didn't start out making that and understand basics of slots machines.

The fact that you have been a decade on a gambling site spewing misinformation about everything and don't even understand the mechanics of simple slots shows what a retard you are.

Yes retard and troll. You are a retarded troll so the worst kind.

I answered you in good faith even knowing we have been disagreeable in the past. And again you take the tack of trying to discredit me for no other purpose than you are trolling me and doing a retarded job at it.

I'm taking the suspension because it's time your fucktard fat 400 pound fat ass is called out.

You have no life. You undersell your comics by $100,000 and call that good business. You are the guy that annoys everyone at the casino with your prognostications based on your own bullshit.

You don't contribute anything to this forum. You are the worst possible enema a forum could possibly have. Basically a total piece of shit.

You have finally heard the truth. I'm certain you won't learn from it. Fucktard trolls never do.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan

You make $20,000 a week, some weeks, not every week but often enough that you claim you do, and you worry about missing twenty cents?
I don't play many slots. If I want mindless entertainment, I can watch Judge Judy, or spar with you. When I did play slots, I'd leave vouchers like that for my maid.
As Grandpa said- pick up every penny you find, and eventually, they make a hole in your pocket for your bills to fall thru.
I don't see this as a problem worth the traction it is getting. The evil casinos are once again ripping off their customers. It's another dog bites man story.
link to original post

Are you a troll?

I never said I was concerned with twenty cents, dufus.

You asked if it was difficult to get to an even dollar amount. I explained how a person in general would have difficulty.

Even making$20,000 a week, I didn't start out making that and understand basics of slots machines.

The fact that you have been a decade on a gambling site spewing misinformation about everything and don't even understand the mechanics of simple slots shows what a retard you are.

Yes retard and troll. You are a retarded troll so the worst kind.

I answered you in good faith even knowing we have been disagreeable in the past. And again you take the tack of trying to discredit me for no other purpose than you are trolling me and doing a retarded job at it.

I'm taking the suspension because it's time your fucktard fat 400 pound fat ass is called out.

You have no life. You undersell your comics by $100,000 and call that good business. You are the guy that annoys everyone at the casino with your prognostications based on your own bullshit.

You don't contribute anything to this forum. You are the worst possible enema a forum could possibly have. Basically a total piece of shit.

You have finally heard the truth. I'm certain you won't learn from it. Fucktard trolls never do.
link to original post

Tell us how you really feel?

Quote: billryan

Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan

You make $20,000 a week, some weeks, not every week but often enough that you claim you do, and you worry about missing twenty cents?
I don't play many slots. If I want mindless entertainment, I can watch Judge Judy, or spar with you. When I did play slots, I'd leave vouchers like that for my maid.
As Grandpa said- pick up every penny you find, and eventually, they make a hole in your pocket for your bills to fall thru.
I don't see this as a problem worth the traction it is getting. The evil casinos are once again ripping off their customers. It's another dog bites man story.
link to original post

Are you a troll?

I never said I was concerned with twenty cents, dufus.

You asked if it was difficult to get to an even dollar amount. I explained how a person in general would have difficulty.

Even making$20,000 a week, I didn't start out making that and understand basics of slots machines.

The fact that you have been a decade on a gambling site spewing misinformation about everything and don't even understand the mechanics of simple slots shows what a retard you are.

Yes retard and troll. You are a retarded troll so the worst kind.

I answered you in good faith even knowing we have been disagreeable in the past. And again you take the tack of trying to discredit me for no other purpose than you are trolling me and doing a retarded job at it.

I'm taking the suspension because it's time your fucktard fat 400 pound fat ass is called out.

You have no life. You undersell your comics by $100,000 and call that good business. You are the guy that annoys everyone at the casino with your prognostications based on your own bullshit.

You don't contribute anything to this forum. You are the worst possible enema a forum could possibly have. Basically a total piece of shit.

You have finally heard the truth. I'm certain you won't learn from it. Fucktard trolls never do.
link to original post

Tell us how you really feel?
link to original post

Right now I feel good.

Calling you out makes my day shine.

I would make a lousy politician but hey I am not running for office so no skin off my back

Quote: darkoz

Yes retard and troll. You are a retarded troll so the worst kind.
link to original post

3 days.

edit: adjusted to 7 days, following review.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan

You make $20,000 a week, some weeks, not every week but often enough that you claim you do, and you worry about missing twenty cents?
I don't play many slots. If I want mindless entertainment, I can watch Judge Judy, or spar with you. When I did play slots, I'd leave vouchers like that for my maid.
As Grandpa said- pick up every penny you find, and eventually, they make a hole in your pocket for your bills to fall thru.
I don't see this as a problem worth the traction it is getting. The evil casinos are once again ripping off their customers. It's another dog bites man story.
link to original post

Are you a troll?

I never said I was concerned with twenty cents, dufus.

You asked if it was difficult to get to an even dollar amount. I explained how a person in general would have difficulty.

Even making$20,000 a week, I didn't start out making that and understand basics of slots machines.

The fact that you have been a decade on a gambling site spewing misinformation about everything and don't even understand the mechanics of simple slots shows what a retard you are.

Yes retard and troll. You are a retarded troll so the worst kind.

I answered you in good faith even knowing we have been disagreeable in the past. And again you take the tack of trying to discredit me for no other purpose than you are trolling me and doing a retarded job at it.

I'm taking the suspension because it's time your fucktard fat 400 pound fat ass is called out.

You have no life. You undersell your comics by $100,000 and call that good business. You are the guy that annoys everyone at the casino with your prognostications based on your own bullshit.

You don't contribute anything to this forum. You are the worst possible enema a forum could possibly have. Basically a total piece of shit.

You have finally heard the truth. I'm certain you won't learn from it. Fucktard trolls never do.
link to original post

Aren't the two of you both married? Don't you guys have spouses you can argue with constantly? It's kind of fun to watch if it's just one thread or something, but this is going to get kind of old if this is what every thread between the two of you is going to look like.

Quote: Mission146

Aren't the two of you both married? Don't you guys have spouses you can argue with constantly? It's kind of fun to watch if it's just one thread or something, but this is going to get kind of old if this is what every thread between the two of you is going to look like.
link to original post

I see that I was late.

You know, I tried to help you guys out in the other thread. I didn't want to see either of you get Suspended, but the way you two are going, it was just a matter of which one of you crossed the line first...no doubt that one or the other was going to.

I'm not married and don't have a dog.
Help me out here.
I've made millions of dollars in trades but oz attacks me because I warned people from the get go not to buy CYDY.
I've sold well over a million dollars worth of comics in the last forty years and sold my inventory for a price few could dream of getting and he proclaims I don't know my business. I had him on ignore for months but it did little.
I want to discuss bitcoin and do so with everyone else, and somehow manage to do so without behaving like a fourth grader.

I'm amazed that that tirade only cost him three days. How many lies and insults can you fit into one post?

Quote: billryan

I'm not married and don't have a dog.
Help me out here.
I've made millions of dollars in trades but oz attacks me because I warned people from the get go not to buy CYDY.
I've sold well over a million dollars worth of comics in the last forty years and sold my inventory for a price few could dream of getting and he proclaims I don't know my business. I had him on ignore for months but it did little.
I want to discuss bitcoin and do so with everyone else, and somehow manage to do so without behaving like a fourth grader.

I'm amazed that that tirade only cost him three days. How many lies and insults can you fit into one post?
link to original post

I may respond to this post when he is unsuspended and capable of defending himself.

I would say that if you have any Bitcoin posts not related to DarkOz that I will respond to them, but it might be tomorrow when I do. Talking to people makes me really exhausted, so I'm jumping off for now and I don't know that I will be back on today.

Kool and da gang!

The machines should just give you the option to play”wager saver” every time you cash out, regardless of whether you still have a large amount of money on your Tito.

That would solve it. You play wager saver with the corrected odds and get back a cashable ticket without any change.

Quote: billryan

**snip**
I'm amazed that that tirade only cost him three days. How many lies and insults can you fit into one post?
link to original post

Upon review, Dieter did upgrade the term of DarkOz's suspension to 7 days.