New craps side bets went live

Update ending 5/27/12.

On this road trip that lasted about a week, I had one of my partners join me on this trip. There were some good news and some bad news. At one of the casino that I had a meeting with the casino manager and the shift supervisor, I followed up to see if we can get these side bets placed. No go. As a new bet, the casino has to sponsor it. It means more work on their part but also means a sweetheart deal for them also. I was disappointed but I can handle a no, what I don't like is being ignored and no replies.

At another casino in AC, I was able to get a meeting with a casino VP. Very professional and friendly Englishman. He knew Derek Webb. We sat down and I described for him the side bets. He gave me information on what I needed to next to get it installed in his casino. Will let the forum know what comes of it.

At a third casino, I was able to get the DTG down to the floor. I tried setting up a formal meeting but was told by the secretary to just come by. Things went well IMO.

Overall I felt that I am making some progress. I will look into some more leads this week.

An interesting thing about these side bets is that it also increases the Hardways action and decreases the Hop Bet action. It looks like there are only so much side actions the craps players want.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

An interesting thing about these side bets is that it also increases the Hardways action and decreases the Hop Bet action. It looks like there are only so much side actions the craps players want.

That was already pointed out earlier by another poster.
Most craps players buyin for low bankrolls, there is just not that much more available bankroll left to make more side bets.
That is why $1 hardways are made by most craps players, more action for just $1.

Most low roller craps players do not make the one roll bets.
Bankroll goes away too quickly and they want more time at the table and not less.
Casino Game designers should realize this fact. It holds true for the large majority of casino gamblers.

Hopefully you will get more placements before you are too old to play "the game". That is also gambling on your part.

Pool is open!
long weekend

Quote: 7craps

That was already pointed out earlier by another poster.
Most craps players buyin for low bankrolls, there is just not that much more available bankroll left to make more side bets.
That is why $1 hardways are made by most craps players, more action for just $1.

Most low roller craps players do not make the one roll bets.
Bankroll goes away too quickly and they want more time at the table and not less.
Casino Game designers should realize this fact. It holds true for the large majority of casino gamblers.

Hopefully you will get more placements before you are too old to play "the game". That is also gambling on your part.

Pool is open!
long weekend

Update for 6/24/12

Just got back from Harrington and saw the DD and Broad played live for the first time. It has been opened for play but this was the first time I was there to actualy see it.

The table limits are lower than for AC casinos, with the max bet on craps at 1k. They had two tables with fire bet, one crapless table with these bets and one regular table with these bets. The one table they had with small, tall, all or nothing was taken out because the house was taking a beating on this.

As I watched and played, what I thought versus how it actualy played out was different.
1. I thought that players would bet small on the DD bet. Fire bet has a max of $5 and if people play this, they are betting a buck or two. People who played DD were betting $5-$20 on every new shooter. One guy was able to bet $50 per shooter with a max win of $12500 if all the doubles were hit. I was surprised that the casino took this action given that their max bet was $1000. The director was comfortable knowing that chance of this paying out was small. He would not have accepted this bet the first night and had $20 cap per person but he didn't seem to mind green chip action last night.

Players were betting for the dealers on the DD. When they had a 10 or 20 dollare bet for themselves, they added a white chip for the dealers. That night, after serveral hours of play, I only noticed a 10x payout. I believe all the miss did not bother them as the excitement of winning the big one kept them going. A player mentioned that she hit it for $2500 a month ago and got a smaller hit also.

2. I bet the Broad Bar 12 for myself and the dealers. I normally do not play just the pass line only, I have al least three bets on the table when I played. I did not notice anyone else making this bet. Although it is a place bet with the same odds and payout as the place 6/8, just having this one bet is not fun for me because this is not how I play craps.

3. An interesting side effect of having the DD bet was that there was an increase action on the Hardways bet. There were many more bets on this than on other craps table that I played on without the DD bet. Since players are rooting for double to appear, they are also betting the hardways more.

There were no one holding the dice for 20 minutes plus, so you can expect the house to have a strong hold and win percentage. Dealers did not have a problem keeping track of this new bet and the play flowed like a regular craps game.

BTW

Got two tables in at Harrington. I got an agreement to place it in another casino so it make two casino. Will let the forum know when the third casino wants to install this.

Congradulations!

Good on you.

Update. Last week, Delaware Park went live with these bets. As expected, all six double got hit in the first three days. Two people had $5 each on it and when the fifth double hit, there were electricity in the air. They needed a hard 10 to get the max payout. Players were also betting the hard 10 big. As soon as the shooter threw the hard ten, there was a roar at the table. Dealers were rooting for the shooter and got a big tip. DP installed 2 tables with these bets.

I have a new side bet for baccarat coming soon. As soon as I get an install, I will let the forum know. Next stop Dover. That will complete the Delaware casinos.

Congrats Ace!! I assume that you are not making it out to G2E this year as I didn't see you respond to the Drinks/Dinner WoV get together.

Keep building that install base.....awesome!!

Thanks Paradigm.

Would love to get together with fellow game developers. Just been to busy to make it that far. There is a picture from 1910's or so of who's who of physicist. Einstein,Currie,Bohr etc... were all pictured. We are not in their league but for casino games, WoV picture would be the fun. It can have picture of the people who made all the proprietary games.

Knocking on doors is hard, and getting a meeting with a DTG or casino manager is even harder but it can be done. You got to ask yourself, who is going to budge first; are you going to stop knocking or are they going to get tired of ingnoring you and give you a meeting just so you would stop calling them.

BTW, it is 3 craps table and 1 crapless crap with these bet so far.

When I get a second game in, I will let you guys all know.

Another update.

Delaware Park has a total of five craps table. They ordered three layouts with DD and Broad bets. The two table with these bets are getting solid action on the DD bets. They will be installing a third table with these bets. That makes 5 craps table total at two casinos with these bets.

Dover is located between Delaware Park and Harrington. It is 30 miles south of Delaware Park and 20 miles north of Harrington which have these bets. Any Guess where I am going today? Will let the forum know what happens.

" Any Guess where I am going today? "

If it's Catonsville, I don't think the number 8 streetcar still runs there !

Gotta be Dover Downs...good luck.
I think Bally Technologies their headquarters right near there.
Not sure why I remember that and it is totally irrelevant.

Please do not post irrelevant facts on this thread.

Ace is a MT ST Joe graduate and understands the #8 street car reference.

Just wanted to give the forum an update.

The Double D will be going into Dover Downs. That completes the entire state of Delaware. As strange as it is to me, players do not play the Broad bet. The casino does not hawk it either. With one of the lowest house edge, I expected more play but this was not so. When I asked some of the players why they did not play this, some of the replies were, "there are plenty of bets that pay 7 to 6."

As for the Double D, I have seen over $100 of action on one shooter, consistently. The casino would have been on the hook for 30k if it hit. The players were saying how they were "free rolling" for $5000 when they hit 5 unique doubles and were shooting for the last double. This player had a $25 chip up.

It looks like the Natural side bet for baccarat will be going into four casinos at once. Just need to file all paper works and have the graphics ready. Still had to pound the pavements, but once you make a connection, second and third connections are a little easier to make.

Thats all for now.

Thanks for the update. I'll look more into this bet. It might fun trying to exploit it, but I don't think I'm anywhere near a table to try.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

It looks like the Natural side bet for baccarat will be going into four casinos at once.

Can you tell us where? I understand if you want to wait until everything is finalized, but if you can't name individual casinos, can you give us a hint? (which state? which region of the country?)

Wanted to give the forum another update.

I drove to a casino in WV to try to get a face to face with the DTG. If they gave me some crap about his being in a meeting, I was prepared to say that I was planning to stay there all day in the poker room so he can call me when he got out. No luck. One of the floor person tried to get a hold of him but DTG was having none of me. Would not even give me the professional courtesy of just saying no, only dead silence and avoiding me.

The floor person was nice enough to fill in the details and told me they are not interested. That's all I asked for was an answer. I do not need to extend any more energy or waste my time trying to contact him.

I got another commitment from another state to put the Double D bet. The Broad bet is not getting as much play as I would have liked so I might take this out. Once it is placed, I will let you know which casino it is. That makes 7 placements and 7 more tables that will be putting this bet.

So far so good but it is a long process.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

Wanted to give the forum another update.

I drove to a casino in WV to try to get a face to face with the DTG. If they gave me some crap about his being in a meeting, I was prepared to say that I was planning to stay there all day in the poker room so he can call me when he got out. No luck. One of the floor person tried to get a hold of him but DTG was having none of me. Would not even give me the professional courtesy of just saying no, only dead silence and avoiding me.

The floor person was nice enough to fill in the details and told me they are not interested. That's all I asked for was an answer. I do not need to extend any more energy or waste my time trying to contact him.

I got another commitment from another state to put the Double D bet. The Broad bet is not getting as much play as I would have liked so I might take this out. Once it is placed, I will let you know which casino it is. That makes 7 placements and 7 more tables that will be putting this bet.

So far so good but it is a long process.

I'm very anxious to go for this bet. I often notice when I hit all the doubles before a seven. I've done it plenty of times, and I would love to bet it if the edge is amicable.

Dumb question time : " So far so good but it is a long process. "

Now that you have some placements, any thoughts about hitting up a distributor ? A one man band can only play so loud !

To the inventor, Congra!!! Any time is a good time to get a distributor, as long as the price is right.

Aces, congrats on the current placements. I think the Forum felt the same way about the two bets as you are seeing played out on the floor. Double D was interesting, Broad D didn't do much for the group. I think you only need Double D to survive to be successful.

Get 6-12 months of performance data that is positive and look to get a distributor on board. It does not make any sense for you to get individually licensed in multiple states to put in a craps side bet.

There are two places as a developer you need to get your foot in the door: the DTG's office and a distributor's office once your game has proven it can generate incremental revenue on the floor.

It looks like to me you are close to step two of that process! Keep up the good work!

Quote: Buzzard

Dumb question time : " So far so good but it is a long process. "

Now that you have some placements, any thoughts about hitting up a distributor ? A one man band can only play so loud !

Not interested in a distributor. Not interested in the spit they will offer and they will not take the split I will offer. Another reason is I got serveral other products in the pipeline that I believe will work. Once you have a professional relationship, it is easy to have them look at another product you have. Also, I have the contact number of a major casino chain with over 80 casinos worldwide. This is one option that no one on the forum has even considered. If I can get a contract with them, I can get funding to get distribution license for each state that I need it.

Thanks for all the feedback and encouragement from the forum. I believe that one of us will break through and have a hit. EZ Paigow looks like a hit. Many good ideas coming from this group of inventors, just need a casino to try it. This is where a distrubutor with their connection and money has an advantage. They can get install on new games with only a few phone calls. We can do something that the big distrubutors cannot or will not do. We can go knocking on doors until they answer or our knuckles get bloody. At that time we can knock with our other hand.

Most DTG will not give us the professional courtesy and not return our call or email.

Casino do not need our products to make money and this is a fact that we cannot change it. What we can do is get some success going so that they would want our products. Getting this chance is one of the toughest task.

Good points about a distributor.
I like the simplicity and effectiveness of a distributor in terms of reach: time is money, and a distributor makes inroads quicker, for a cut. Whether it's worth it is the decision of the inventor.
There is something to be said for getting 100% of revenue, though usually on fewer tables, and with a lot of sore knuckles and worn-out shoes. If you have a contact with a large operator, that's a helpful in.
Once you hit a critical mass of installs, you'll be taken seriously, and things will move along more smoothly.

Quote: Paigowdan

Good points about a distributor.
I like the simplicity and effectiveness of a distributor in terms of reach: time is money, and a distributor makes inroads quicker, for a cut.

I just had my first real road block. When the game was submitted and approved, DE did not ask me for a vendor license. Now the issue of the license has caused the casino to pull the side bet. They have been very professional to inform me when they did this. It is my job to get all the paperwork done so I can move forward. It looks like one step forward, one step back.

Having a distributor would have saved me all the head ache. But what fun would it have been if everything was easy.

You can always find a distributor (or anyone with a license) to sign up right now. It's free money for him / her. Yes, your income will drop.

Quote: UCivan

You can always find a distributor (or anyone with a license) to sign up right now. It's free money for him / her. Yes, your income will drop.

I'm up for this. Anyone with a license in PA, NJ, or DE pm me. thx

Yeah, just a solid congratulations and good luck in the new year.

Ace, how have your ventures in Mississippi gone? Any trials of your dice bets there? I see your company has been registered a couple years there. Is the process harder in Delaware than Mississippi?

Quote: allinriverking

Ace, how have your ventures in Mississippi gone? Any trials of your dice bets there? I see your company has been registered a couple years there. Is the process harder in Delaware than Mississippi?

I only had a card game when I went to MS. I have not been back since then. DE is close to where I live so it was easier for me to meet with them. I am working on getting vendors license in the states either by getting my own or by working under someone else license. MS is a special case because the state wants you to get the game approved before you contact the casinos. Most other states, the casinos have to sponsor you before the state looks at a new game.

2/4/13

Just made my rounds to serveral casinos with one of my partners. Had some very positive meetings. Got firm committment from one casino for both the craps and the baccarat side bets. At another casino, the DTG was impressed with both bets. He likes side bets and stated that he can see a hundred installs by the end of the year. He will have a meeting with his managers and follow up with me in the coming week.

This state requires GLI approval of the math. Another hurdle and serveral more thousands I need to spend. If traveling over a thousand miles round trip wasn't bad enough, got to add GLI into this.

FYI, they all have heard of the Wizard but will not accept anything other than GLI. Other gambling VP look and read this site and one manager talk about APheat web site. This casino has ordered two side bet for bj because of the Raving Gaming Convention.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

This casino has ordered two side bet for bj because of the Raving Gaming Convention.

Which two?

Don't remember what they were. One of the side bet was shown at the Raving and the other was not shown but the casino found out through the show. The casino is located in Larry Bird's hometown.

Just wanted to give the forum an update. I have an order from two more casino who will be trying these side bets. That makes five casinos if anyone is counting. I will give the names once they place the games. Hope others are having success wtih their games.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

Just wanted to give the forum an update. I have an order from two more casino who will be trying these side bets. That makes five casinos if anyone is counting. I will give the names once they place the games. Hope others are having success wtih their games.

Anything new with any more casinos trying your side bet?

Ace,

This has been really valuable, you keeping this up the last several years; I really appreciate getting a good picture of what it is to go out and market your idea. Please continue to update.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Ace,

This has been really valuable, you keeping this up the last several years; I really appreciate getting a good picture of what it is to go out and market your idea. Please continue to update.

Two steps forward, one step back. That is what has happened to me.
I will give you more update as it comes. I have had couple of DTG who said they will put the Double D in and have not followed through. I am waiting on one of the state lottery to approve the game/side bet.

For anyone who wants to try this, and lets say that you invented the best table game in the world, here are some more hoops you need to jump through.

1. Math report done. Let us assume you had miplet, telliot, wizard or even Gauss verify your math and write you a report. This may not be enough because some states will only accept a report from GLI.
2. Vendor license. Some state require different license such as supplier license, gaming license.
3. If you are dealing with tribal casino, they may require you to have their approval.
4. You need to have a graphic artist work with the company that supplies the layout for the casino. You don't want the casino coming back to you with any issues. This applies to side bet mostly. Same layout, fonts, graphic, material etc... only difference being the new side bet.

Each process from 1-4 will involve $$$$.

I will keep the forum updated with any new developments when they happen. No one said this will be easy, so no complaints here. Many valuable insights from people in this forum, Paradigm, ME, Wiz, PiagowDan, miplet, buzzard, and many others. Thx to all.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

Double D This bet does not work on the come out roll.

This would turn me off as a player, since you could miss up to three doubles through come-out - Craps 1&1 and 6&6 and hardways of the next point - which could be the difference between losing and winning 250 to 1. I'd be madder than hell watching that happen!

Whatever happened with the double d. I have never seen it and it is definitely a bet that I would make.

" This state requires GLI approval of the math. Another hurdle and serveral more thousands I need to spend. If traveling over a thousand miles round trip wasn't bad enough, got to add GLI into this. "

Gee, if a rookie here read that, they might thing you were surprised at the money you would have to invest.

May I say sir, you have balls bigger than King Kong ? The Xaverian Brothers must have taught you well !

Quote: GWAE

Whatever happened with the double d. I have never seen it and it is definitely a bet that I would make.

Nobody understood it and therefore nobody bet it when it was at Harrington, DE. Never heard of it being offered anywhere else.

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Quote: AceCrAAckers

Double D This bet does not work on the come out roll.

This would turn me off as a player, since you could miss up to three doubles through come-out

Having played the All, Tall and Small Bonus bets and getting those slaughtered on a come out 7 and having to bet again and again not even having any chance to win

I think you might get mad too at all the 7 winners that would kill the DD

which would make you more madder than hell?

I like the idea of point roll decisions
hope this bet can make it out west
but have a feeling it will not
Sally

Quote: mustangsally

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Quote: AceCrAAckers

Double D This bet does not work on the come out roll.

This would turn me off as a player, since you could miss up to three doubles through come-out

Having played the All, Tall and Small Bonus bets and getting those slaughtered on a come out 7 and having to bet again and again not even having any chance to win

I think you might get mad too at all the 7 winners that would kill the DD

which would make you more madder than hell?

Sally

I understand that this bet, if left working could lose on a come-out seven, no doubt about that. But one of the reasons that Vegas leaves Hardways on come-outs is the fact that much more stands to be won if a Point sets hard than lost if Big Red rolls instead. So, I think it's an a fortiori argument in favor of come-out working the Double-D, since it's better to lose $1 on the Hannah Highway than to lose $10, $50, or even $250 playing it "safe", watching a Craps parade that you can't march in.