SHFL Focus Group

Shuffle Master in the next 4-6 weeks will be conducting a focus-group review of new table games.

If you want your game considered for inclusion, e-mail me at Rsnow@shufflemaster.com. The audience will be dealers and floor supervisors from a few Strip properties and the table game intelligentsia at Shuffle Master. The purpose is simple, but difficult: To help us determine which game will be the next Three Card Poker, the next Ultimate Texas Hold'em, the next Mississippi Stud, or the next Free Bet Blackjack (you don't know that one yet ... but you will).

E-mails only and please keep them brief. I don't have time to read through some manifesto. I've got an empire to run, you know.

Roger

maybe your company will consider a game with a house edge below 2% for once.
it might actually stand a good chance.
wouldn't you rather have a game that exceeds those listed?

Wongbo,
The "officially listed house edge" is not the only criterion that players and casino operators should consider.
Obviously, a game shouldn't burn out players with a usurious house edge, but neither should a game have one that would be ridiculous for the operator to offer.
I am certain the house edges are to be tailored to fine balance, and proper balanced zones for each game will be found.
- and what may be looked at are the game's ease-of-play, "fun-factor," features of the game, elegance of play, catchiness of play style, and a whole list of qualities above and beyound its mere "bar code numbers"
I'm sure fine data will be obtained with your good-faith participation.
Have fun playing these games, ask questions.

Quote: WongBo

maybe your company will consider a game with a house edge below 2% for once.
it might actually stand a good chance.
wouldn't you rather have a game that exceeds those listed?

seems to me that in many cases the casino can choose paytables that are reasonable but typically choose otherwise...

Quote: WongBo

maybe your company will consider a game with a house edge below 2% for once.
it might actually stand a good chance.
wouldn't you rather have a game that exceeds those listed?

A carnival game with a house edge under 2% wouldn't have much of a chance of succeeding. Keep in mind the following:

• The casino is replacing an existing game. The new game needs to be more profitable than the game it's replacing.
• The casino has to pay a monthly licensing fee to the game inventor/distributor. The casino may be replacing one the dozens of public domain games. The monthly win therefore has to be that much higher. That increase can come from increased hands per hour, higher occupancy, a higher average bet, or a higher house edge. Of all those the inventor has the most control over the house edge.
• Carnival games are often very slow compared to a blackjack game. A full blackjack table may get 50 hands per hour while a full Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em table may get 30-40. The higher house edge compensates for this.

That said, most carnival games come with different paytables with lower house edges but the casinos tend to pick the higher house edge paytables for the above reasons. When's the last time you saw a Three Card Poker table with Pair Plus Paytable 1?

Should an announcement be made at WOO, too?
"Here's your chance to shake the future of gaming..."

Quote: PopCan

When's the last time you saw a Three Card Poker table with Pair Plus Paytable 1?

ANSWER: March 2012: Turning Stone, Verona, NY

Can I be in the focus group?

Quote: WongBo

Quote: PopCan

When's the last time you saw a Three Card Poker table with Pair Plus Paytable 1?

ANSWER: March 2012: Turning Stone, Verona, NY

That's one out of a thousand installs. The other 999 are doing fine with 1-3-6-30-40.
I'm all for value gaming too; for that matter sometimes I buy stuff at Walmart or the dollar store, too. I also go to the steak house, and when I see the Steak and Lobster is $75, I don't leave for Denny's, nor do I say, "HEY! - can you make the steak and lobster $10 for me??!! I'm not here to pay your light bill! (Actually, I am, and expect good steak and lobster for it.)" I either order it or I don't.

Casino operators and game distributors have to stike the best balance between player return and house profitability. For that matter, you really can't say to the Poker room dealer, "Hey! Can you stop taking a rake! I'm lookin' for a cheap date!"

I play to have fun, and if it's a reasonable house edge and I like the game, I play it. I'm not booking a flight to Tuning Stone when 3-card is all around town.
If game 'x' has a house edge 2.79835463% and game 'y' has a house edge of 3.1298451%, I don't feel outraged. Game 'y' might play better, and have an element of risk, to boot, too.

Quote: Pacman

, or the next Free Bet Blackjack (you don't know that one yet ... but you will).


Roger

The house edge isn't everything...'Freebet Blackjack' has a house edge of 0.72% so it's well in line with regular Blackjack games.

Quote: Paigowdan

That's one out of a thousand installs. The other 999 are doing fine with 1-3-6-30-40.

And that's the sad and sorry truth. Last trip I played 3CP at 4 different properties, and at each one everyone but me played the Pair Plus bet. A Bally's everyone but me even played the six card bonus bet, which has an even worse house edge. Obviously there's no need to lower the house edge on the sucker bet to get a few more players to bet on it.

Quote: WongBo

maybe your company will consider a game with a house edge below 2% for once.
it might actually stand a good chance.
wouldn't you rather have a game that exceeds those listed?

And once SM places a game in a casino, lower level management can kill it if they so desire. Read my thread about Switch and how the Mardi Gras in Blackhawk treats the game. To say nothing of Roger at least giving people a shot to demonstrate their game. Not many in the industry do this !

In case I wasn't clear originally, let me be so now. Shuffle Master is soliciting outside inventors for new game ideas. If you want your game reviewed by a focus group of casino dealers and pit supervisors--as well as by the guys at SHFL--please e-mail me at rsnow@shufflemaster.com. We don't yet have an exact date for the focus group, but it will likely occur in late April or early May. Space is limited to 10 games and we have already filled three spots with internal creations.

Roger

I wish you luck with recruiting various game-inventors for your upcoming Focus Group presentations. Its good when a company is receptive to outside innovation and willing to listen to the inventors and also those who may later be "obstacles" such as dealers and pit bosses.

I'm sure game inventors invest a great deal of time and energy and I imagine that a frank discussion can smooth the way when pit bosses air their grievances about crowd flow and question-asking and dealer-training-time.

I would advise extreme caution when submitting any ideas to this company.

Contact a patent attorney first.

For sure, don't sign the Shuffle Master NDA.

Better yet, apply for your patent before disclosing anything.

One more thing, a "focus group" consisting of dealers, pit management and Shuffle Master corporate staff would probably be counter-productive in assessing the actual appeal of a game, and soliciting inventors to have such folks review their unprotected ideas sounds a little fishy.

Quote: tupp

For sure, don't sign the Shuffle Master NDA.

I second that. Never sign a non disclosure agreement
under any circumstances. And never show an unprotected
idea to a company in the business. Stealing ideas is common
practice, protect your intellectual property.

Right, Pacman/Roger?

Quote: EvenBob

Never sign a non disclosure agreement under any circumstances.

Actually, it might be okay for a lone inventor to sign an NDA -- as long as the inventor originates the NDA. My point was not to sign the NDA originated by Shuffle Master.

Here's the thing -- the way this review is evidently set up, there are a lot of unknown industry people to whom you will disclose your idea. If you do not get a signed NDA with each and every creep who sees your idea, you can basically kiss goodbye your valuable invention (and your patent attorney will have a fit).

Your NDA with Shuffle Master should probably contain language in which Shuffle Master guarantees that it has bound all those who review your idea to not disclose anything they see.

But even with such an NDA, if you do not file a patent within one year from the time of disclosure and if Shuffle Master likes all or part of your idea, you are SOL. If so, you will probably see all or part of your invention appearing in a game a few years down the road, with no compensation nor credit. I am not sure about the recent changes in patent law, but they might even be able to get a patent on your ideas, if they file be fore you -- even with the NDA.

Nowadays, one should probably file a patent application before approaching companies.

Quote: tupp

I would advise extreme caution when submitting any ideas to this company.

Why do you specify "this company" ?

The advice provided is good advice, but it applies equally well regarding any gaming company, or individual.

Quote: Pacman

In case I wasn't clear originally, let me be so now. Shuffle Master is soliciting outside inventors for new game ideas. If you want your game reviewed by a focus group ...
Roger

Roger -

Thanks for the clarification. I, too, thought you were looking for people for the focus group. If I lived in Las Vegas, I would have responded.

Because of the clarification, I will submit my Poker For Roulette idea - although I suspect you already know about it.

Is Shufflemaster doing anything to protect the intellectual
property of the outside inventor before he shows it to a
bunch of strangers on a panel?

Roger/SHFL should be commended for reaching out to developers. At the end of the day, if you have a game that is any good, you are going to need to strike a deal with SHFL/DEQ/Gam. Net/Galaxy to get your game pushed through a large channel distribution network.

If you haven't filed to protect your IP on your game, you aren't ready to be demonstrating it at this sort of event anyway.

What we really need SHFL to do is to spend the legal $$ to get the USPTO to reverse their current opinion that card games and their methods are unpatentable as failing the 101 crieria of "abstract ideas". Doesn't really matter what you have filed today......currently USPTO won't end up giving you any protection on a non-electronic version of a card game.

Need one of the big boys to take on the USPTO in their ridiculous stance post Bilski!

Five spots remaining.

Roger

Four spots remaining.

Quote: Pacman

Four spots remaining.

I would say the odds against me winning a spot have increased, but not sure " greater than infinity" is a valid term.

And although Free Bet bJ is not on SMI web page, does not mean it is unheard of here.

Grosvenor G Casino Coventry

What's going on ?

Free Bet Blackjack

Friday 2nd March - Friday 4th May

Imagine a Blackjack game where the dealer pays for all of your hard doubles and splits! Free Bet Blackjack does just that! For more information on how to play, call the Casino and speak to a member of the team!

Quote: EvenBob

Is Shufflemaster doing anything to protect the intellectual
property of the outside inventor before he shows it to a
bunch of strangers on a panel?

Bob, don't you think that is the inventor's responsibility ? Just asking, not arguing. OK ?

Quote: buzzpaff

Bob, don't you think that is the inventor's responsibility ? Just asking, not arguing. OK ?

You assume the inventor knows this. If he doesn't,
oh well. Inventor beware.. Edison told Tesla if Tesla
invented some good stuff while working for him, he
would give Tesla $50K. When Tesla tried to collect, Edison
told him it was a joke. Ha ha.

Quote: buzzpaff

And although Free Bet bJ is not on SMI web page, does not mean it is unheard of here.

Free Bet Blackjack

Licensee / proprietor - Customised Casino Games Ltd (AKA-Switch).

Three spots remaining.

One spot remaining.

The last spot was just taken. Thanks to those who agreed to participate. The focus group is scheduled for May 2, from 10 a.m. to Noon at Shuffle Master.

Quote: Pacman

The last spot was just taken. Thanks to those who agreed to participate. The focus group is scheduled for May 2, from 10 a.m. to Noon at Shuffle Master.

Were those who recieved a spot contacted?

Quote: pinball

Were those who recieved a spot contacted?

Yes. At least, I know I was! :)


Poker For Roulette has been selected to be part of this event. As such, I have been invited to come to Vegas to participate. Thanks, Roger!

For the record, I really don't know if I'm allowed to tell you this. If Roger Snow gives me a hard time about revealing the fact that I've been selected, I have a pretty strong argument against it. And, no, I won't discuss that argument with anyone except Roger Snow, or other people whom I find out - and confirm - are invited.


The event is on 5/2. There's no way I'll be able to stretch that visit all the way to 5/12, so I won't be able to attend WoVCon][.

However, since I suspect other out-of-town WoV members may be involved in ShuffleMaster's event, I will start a new thread about a possible WoVCon][a (Or WovCon2 to avoid confusion).

Quote: Pacman

I don't have time to read through some manifesto. I've got an empire to run, you know.

Roger

I like the cut of your jib.

I look forward to seeing you again DJTeddyBear

I have to say, I thought this thread was a joke at first and some sort of prank someone put on Roger Snow by giving out his email and asking for new ideas. After seeing DJTeddyBear's post, I guess it is legit. Good luck out there!

Glad Roger started this thread on March 31st and not a day later. LOL

I was convinced it was an early April Fool's joke at first...

Quote: WatchMeWin

I have to say, I thought this thread was a joke at first and some sort of prank someone put on Roger Snow by giving out his email and asking for new ideas. After seeing DJTeddyBear's post, I guess it is legit. Good luck out there!

I'm the voice of confirmation? OK. Cool. I can live with that.

Yeah, it's either legit, or a scam put on by somebody who is VERY good at spoofing, and/or has WAY too much time on their hands.

I certainly hope it's not the latter, because I'm booking my flight tonight.

DJ, I can't imagine any downside to getting that level of feedback for PFR. Demonstrating your game to Roger et al as well as Las Vegas Table Games Management folks can't be a bad thing. You ought to get a pretty good feel for the positives and negatives of your game.

The only other event that I know of that works like this in Vegas is Ravings Cutting Edge Table Games Conference (which I noticed from their website, they are bringing back in December of 2012 @ The Mirage). Of course they have charged a pretty penny to exhibit your game at that conference in the past....not G2E money, but it ain't cheap. SHFL's sounds like it is free which is a nice bonus.

Hopefully, SHFL/Roger will allow you to share about your experience here after the event (i.e. there isn't a confidentiality agreement you need to sign to participate, etc.).

You should be excited for next month's event. Good luck and I hope it goes well.

"Feel good" and "excited" is putting it mildly.

Then again, I'm also extremely nervous and anxious.


Frankly, I don't know what the format is, or what's expected of me.

When I think of "Focus Group", I think of a bunch of people who are assembled in a room where the product is introduced, and the people discuss it. All while the inventor sits behind a one-way mirror. I've been involved in several of those - as one of the guys being paid about $35 to be in the room and provide my opinion. Don't blame me if a certain breakfast food company comes out with a liquid yogurt product that sucks.

But it's starting to sound more like this is a little trade show expo floor - a mini G2E of sorts. I've exhibited in those before as well, both for my day job, and for my DJ and Reverend business.

I can work with either format, or something else, I just wish I knew more about it.


As far as a confidentiality agreement goes, I asked about it but haven't gotten one yet. But since I kinda expect one, I'm keeping all my comments as generic as I can.

I guessed it would be a mini trade show type set up where you would "deal your game" or hire a dealer to deal while you explain it to the members of the focus group.

Obviously you will only be able to share what you can, but I am sure there are many on the board that will be interested to hear how it went, etc. Whatever you can share without violating any agreements.

Hope it all goes well......it certainly has the potential to be a significant event in the life of PFR!

Quote: Paradigm

I guessed it would be a mini trade show type set up where you would "deal your game" or hire a dealer to deal while you explain it to the members of the focus group.

Actually, either way, that's part of what worries me.

Even if ShuffleMaster were to provide me with a fully equipped Roulette table with a dealer, I don't see my idea working well in a demo with real random results.

I think the best way for me to talk about it is, simply, to talk about it, using photos of interesting history displays, such as those I have on my web site. Kinda like what I was doing when I was walking around and passing out my literature at G2E to whomever would give me 30 seconds.

But I worry that doing it that way would make me look less professional.

Maybe I'm worrying and over-thinking it too much. As I recall, there is the story that an inventor of some video poker variant (MultiStrike? Multi-Play?) sold it by demoing it using cardboard with hand-written markings and playing cards. All he had to do was get it in front of the right person. Hopefully, the right person will stop by my table at the ShuffleMaster event.

Here is the format:

1. Each inventor will have 10-15 minutes to present his game to an audience of casino dealers and floor supervisors, as well as the table-games crew at Shuffle Master.
2. At the end of each demo, the attendees will rate that game according to a point-based scoring system.
3. We will tally the results at the end.

For Shuffle Master, these types of demos are part of an overall review process; they are not the entire process. We have been conducting focus groups with new games for the 12 years I've been with the company, and I can count on one hand the number of times I have been surprised by the outcome. For the most part, the results simply ratify--or in some cases strengthen--my initial perceptions of a game.

With that said, this is a great opportunity for an inventor to show his game to people that are knowledgeable, candid and objective.

I wish everyone good luck.

Roger

Roger -

Thanks for the info. That sounds like the perfect kind of format for the way I can present my idea.

And thanks for letting me ramble on about my own concerns, and for publicly responding.

Will some of the presenters be openly mocked and
laughed at for having dumb ideas? Can the public
attend to watch? I have a half finished casino game
involving Hooks and Ladders and Parker Bros 'Clue'.
Is it too late to get in?

In cases where it is not possible to deal the game (e.g., a progressive where the electronics are not yet created, but are to be created), the solidity or the presentation becomes all.

You'll be in a sense a attorney exponding on the merits of your client. Usually there is no one better than the father of the brain child to do this.
So practice the presentation among real people, as you want to nail down the audition.
You should know about the house egde, the hands per hour, a little about game protection ("The cards are placed forward, after the player decides to play the hand, to prevent card mucking and hole-carding.") Small design mistakes are overcome-able, but detract from the impressiveness of the presentation.

Show you know your details, that there's no or very few holes in the game, and your knowledge and thoughtfulness in your game. You got three weeks to nail it.

As for dealing, the inventor is best IF he can deal the game well. It is assumed that many game inventors are experienced players adept at handling cards
However, IF you are "lumpy," then get a dealer who makes the game look good - IF you cannot make your game look good.

No One will be mocked, and yes, even though some ideas are better than others. But none will be subjected to ridicule, and so to operate on that basis shows that you will NOT be part of the professional panel.

And I got to say this: this is Roger's chance to really shine, to show how Shufflemaster greatly supports their cadre of game inventors as well as taking input from their casino operators, - and in front of the industry. Good will, good faith, fair play and the trustworthyness of a distributor goes a Thousand miles in getting the patronage and support of all the casino operators, and the inventors to sign with a distributor in the first place.

Shufflemaster is becoming like a publisher with whom you'd like to sign with, knowing their own in-house writers cannot produce all the novels that people will wish to read and buy, and that they are playing "clean ball" on this now.

There has been some former talk and unfair accusations of bad faith lodged against Roger and company, - most of it either misunderstandings, or just sour grapes as to his greater success - from those who failed to achieve what he accomplished. By now displaying an open process, it's like a publisher who says, "these are the great writers who are a part of OUR team" now showing the industry that THEY are THE guys to go to give input on what you'd like to run at your casino. This looks like the new thrust or new direction of distributors: the novelists are the allies of the publisher, and are actually precious to the publisher. In turn, the IP developers have to trust and allow their distributor to do the job as charged: sell and distribute. It's now a participatory dialogue, and not a "we tell you" thing any more.

This could be a PR home run for the distributors who ally themselves with their IP suppliers and end operators.

Dan -

Thanks for that info.

Are you attending?

I just created a thread to discuss a possible meeting, a week ahead of WoVCon][.
Here's the WoVCon 2A details.

I want to but I can't; it would look improper having ties to game distributors. I have an interest in a game there, and will prep the co-inventor thoroughly.

I will meet my co-inventor afterwards; I'll probably be at PT's waiting.
I relish analyzing new games, it's my professional lifeblood.

Just in case anybody wonders why you need a distributor, this from the guy who invented 3 card poker
Ernie Moody says, "Casinos do not enjoy paying the daily royalty fee, even though the games make more money [than machines that do not require royalties]. Casinos want to buy the game for not a lot of money, keep it on the gaming floor for 10 years, have it make money and then trade it in."