MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
• Posts: 6526
September 14th, 2010 at 8:37:30 AM permalink
Hi folks,

There's been some good discussion about DJTeddyBear's Hit It Again roulette wager, but it got me thinking about the layout and dealer procedures for any bet that takes longer than one spin. I know that you can do anything with an electronic bet manager of some sort, but putting that together is an expensive proposition. Besides electronics, is there a "right" way to track a multi-spin wager?

For example, suppose I invented a "three primes" bet. You make the bet, and then you win even money if the ball hits three prime numbers over the next five spins. How would you track that?

Or, for a more complicated wager, suppose you had a multi-spin bet with a paytable (like Dave's) where the number of spins in the sequence mattered and there are multiple pay levels. For example, take the Hit It Again parlay concept and apply it to Black instead of a single number, and you could easily be paying on 5, 8, 10 in a row. How would you track that?

I'm not a roulette dealer, but I've studied the procedures enough to know that most of the "empty" space on the table is actually used for chip transit -- that is, the chips slide over those areas either during losing bet collection or during payouts. That means those areas aren't good for tracking multiple spins, because any tokens or lammers you put there would get in the way of standard mechanics. If you wanted to put some sort of bet tracking layout on the table, where should it go (again, assume non-electronic)?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
• Posts: 10061
September 14th, 2010 at 8:58:14 AM permalink
I've given that a lot of thought, and came up with procedures for my bet that involves using some of that space. http://hit-it-again-roulette.com/manual_ops.html

For what it's worth, that enpty space is not really necessary. After the ball lands, the dealer puts the marker on the winning spot. All the losing chips are raked. The space between the layout and the dealer is used for this, but does NOT NEED to be used for this. The chips CAN be raked around it.

Once the layout is clear of losers, there's a lot of empty space to cut and slide the payouts to the winners.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
• Posts: 6526
September 14th, 2010 at 9:40:12 AM permalink
I looked at your layout -- isn't the slide rule you're using going to sit on top of the drop box and the plunger?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
• Posts: 10061
September 14th, 2010 at 10:53:11 AM permalink
The instant answer is, the drop slot isn't always in the same place on all tables, or it should be able to be relocated.

The real answer is, I feel like an idiot for not thinking about the money before this, but I never even considered the drop slot when sketching the tables!

Bottom line, I can design a different slide rule if necessary.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
• Posts: 6526
September 14th, 2010 at 11:24:58 AM permalink
Okay, another example. Someone just posted about a "Shut the Box" game in another thread, where you have to knock out all the numbers between 1 and 9 with dice. What if you applied that idea to Hit It Again, reversing it to "Don't Hit It Again":

1) Player makes a bet
2) The dealer tracks the next N numbers until one repeats
3) The player gets paid based on how many N is.

I'm not saying this is a good bet because it's *really* slow to resolve, but it illustrates the tracking issue. Here's a proposed solution: what if you printed up a miniature version of the roulette layout next to the dealer's rail, near the part where the table bends away from the players? You'd just need the numbers 0, 00, and 1-36, and each box could be just big enough to hold a small marker or lammer. Suppose you used markers that looked like chess pawns, for example. I know some roulette markers look like this anyway. If the base of the piece was 3/4", you could get the whole layout into a 2.25" x 9.75" box. Then, during the wager, you'd just put a marker on every number (in the mini layout) until one was a repeat, then count them up and pay off.

Merits of the bet aside, do you think this layout and procedure would fly? Or is there something fundamental about roulette procedure that I'm violating here?

Layout example in ASCII:
` ( wheel )   \_____/          ___/  _   _           / /_\_/_\         / |_|_|_|    ^ ^ | |_|_|_|    === | |_|_|_|    +++ <-- mini tracking layout |_|_|_|    === | |_|_|_|        | <-- rail |_|_|_|    ||     |_|_|_|    ||     (dealer) |_|_|_|    || <-- drop box |_|_|_|     |_|_|_|        |     |_|_|_|        |  (player) |_|_|_|        |                /  main layout  /  (player)--------------/ (player)   (player)`
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
• Posts: 5692
September 14th, 2010 at 11:47:38 AM permalink
1. This would play into the "gamblers' fallacy." Not that this is immoral, illegal, or fattening. Indeed, casinos should love it: more action = more money. Player might love it to death, too.
2. Stacy, call me Dan.
3. As for feasibility, there's more than one Roulette Dealer on this board...Let's hear from them, Clubflush...
4. It can be done electronically - and automatically - with a table's "tally board" - NO dealer problem, it's automated...
5. how would you "age" the lammers....
6. Write a \$120 "speculative" provisional patent and submit it and shop it around...you never know...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
• Posts: 6526
September 14th, 2010 at 12:39:30 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

4. It can be done electronically - and automatically - with a table's "tally board" - NO dealer problem, it's automated...
5. how would you "age" the lammers....
6. Write a \$120 "speculative" provisional patent and submit it and shop it around...you never know...

The tally boards don't hold that many numbers -- usually they report only the last 12-20 numbers (depending on manufacturer). But even assuming the board held 38 or more past results, would casino security procedures allow for the bet to be tracked only using the tally board? The eye-in-the-sky can't see that to verify things, can it? That's why I assumed you'd need something on the layout.

What do you mean by "age" the lammers?

As for writing a provisional, nah - I don't like the idea. You can't possibly track multiple overlapping bets so you're limited to one sequence at a time. Each sequence takes so long, you're probably looking at only being able to bet once every ten minutes. I can't imagine a casino would be willing to pay money for such a slow proposition. At 6 bets per hour, how much are they going to make even if everyone throws \$1 on it? Suppose you used 15% for the edge: 2 players (avg) * \$1 * 15% * 6 = \$1.80/hour. Being optimistic and going for a 24x7 table with those 2 players, you get to \$1300/month. According to the latest NGCB revenue report, roulette tables statewide earned about \$66,400 last month. I'd assume an additional \$1300 would not be worth the hassle of tracking all those numbers.

Here's a question: how much extra revenue would a roulette side bet need to earn for it to be worthwhile for a casino to give it a shot?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
• Posts: 10061
September 14th, 2010 at 12:48:40 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

The tally boards don't hold that many numbers -- usually they report only the last 12-20 numbers (depending on manufacturer).

You're right. The original LED models, like those in this picture, aren't very useful for something like that.

However, modern tally boards use full color LCD displays with info that changes.

I saw them the last time I was at Sands, PA. It had the normal previous results, but it changed every few seconds to also show hot numbers, cold numbers, etc. In retrospect, I wish I took a picture or two.

It wouldn't be too hard to add to the variety of data that it shows.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
• Posts: 6526
September 14th, 2010 at 2:06:34 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I saw them the last time I was at Sands, PA. It had the normal previous results, but it changed every few seconds to also show hot numbers, cold numbers, etc. In retrospect, I wish I took a picture or two.

It wouldn't be too hard to add to the variety of data that it shows.

Not hard at all, but you'd have to get the vendor to do it. The Aria has brand-spanking-new LCD monitors by TCS (I think) that show a whole lot of data about past games, hot/cold streaks, and even ads for casino restaurants. It would be a trivial engineering effort to add tracking for the side bet, but convincing them it's worth their time is another story.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563