Poll

7 votes (36.84%)
12 votes (63.15%)

19 members have voted

RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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September 9th, 2010 at 11:21:26 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

I'm gonna ignore the math for a moment, and just assume you're right.

The Wiz make a valid point: There's nothing unique here.

The first part of the bet is that the next roll is a hard point, or loses. This is equal to hopping the 4 hard numbers for 25% of the bet. The second part is like taking the proceeds of the hop and parlaying it on the hard number.

While it's an interesting idea, there's nothing unique about it. Any player who wishes to achieve similar results (or maybe better results) can simply hop and parlay.

Hmmm.... Now THERE'S some math I can wrap my head around - except I have to leave now for my in-laws for dinner....



If there was a requirement for a bet to be different than other bets, then what is the Any Seven bet for?
I can hop the different 7 combinations and get paid better to boot, yet the Any Seven bet is on the felt too!

I like Dan's alterations about the natural and craps comeout rolls being a push. Of course the acid test for me is, Would I play the bet?
Well, I want to feel like I have a chance at a bet, and this one seems a long shot. I will play the Fire Bet, but that has a remote chance for a 1000:1 payoff. Also, as pointed out, a working hardway bet effectively results in a 100 for 1 payout if it is parlayed. However, you have to risk 4 units to the comeout 7, so that accounts for some of the odds discrepancy between 100:1 and the suggested 80:1 for this bet. The payout alone would keep educated people from playing the bet, but that doesn't mean the bet would not get played........
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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September 9th, 2010 at 7:17:03 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

The Hard Pass bet is a craps side bet made on the shooter's come-out roll.

Why just on come-out rolls? Seems to me there's no reason to not also have a Hard Come bet. It would mean an alteration to the proposed table layout, but there is NO reason to limit this to come-out rolls.


Quote: RaleighCraps

If there was a requirement for a bet to be different than other bets, then what is the Any Seven bet for?
I can hop the different 7 combinations and get paid better to boot, yet the Any Seven bet is on the felt too!

The 'requirement' stems from the desire to get a casino to pay for the concept. If it's not unique, why would they pay?

You're right that hopping the 7s is better than the Any 7 - unless you're betting it for amounts that don't divide by 3.

The Any 7 still exists for the same reason the Big 6/8 still exists - it costs the casinos nothing to have it, and people will bet it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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September 9th, 2010 at 8:15:28 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Why just on come-out rolls? Seems to me there's no reason to not also have a Hard Come bet. It would mean an alteration to the proposed table layout, but there is NO reason to limit this to come-out rolls.



Dave, that's a very good point. Bet it anytime: Hard Come Bet - or....Hard Point bet! If a hardways is thrown next, it moves/parlays to that hardway number, else it loses. Again, it could also be "off on a natural," win or lose on a hard or easy number, to pay 4:1, so a one unit bet becomes 5 unit on the hardway. Bet a dollar, it's parlayed to a nickel hardway number; bet a nickel, it's parlayed to $25 on the hardway - waiting to hit again.

With it being off if a natural's thrown, then there's 4 ways to win-and-parlay (hard 4,6,8,10) and 20 to lose (5 & 9, and easy 4,6,8, 10); 4/20 = 5:1, parlays at 4:1 plus original bet, 16% HE, just like the any-7 (so what? - it does so much!)
From there it's a now hardways bet waiting to repeat - at a bigger value - waiting to hit.

A betting line could be placed in the prop area - between the ANY-7 line and the hardway boxes below - right between them both. If it loses, stickman locks it up. If it wins, stickman parlays it to its hardways number, just below it. Boom!

Love it, a lot can be done with this.....Math Extremist - what a sharp idea.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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September 9th, 2010 at 10:18:02 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Why just on come-out rolls? Seems to me there's no reason to not also have a Hard Come bet. It would mean an alteration to the proposed table layout, but there is NO reason to limit this to come-out rolls.



Quote: Paigowdan

A betting line could be placed in the prop area - between the ANY-7 line and the hardway boxes below - right between them both. If it loses, stickman locks it up. If it wins, stickman parlays it to its hardways number, just below it. Boom!



You're right, but the only reason I'm hesitant to offer it is due to procedure concerns. As I currently see it, the number for the Hard Pass is indicated by the puck (if the bet is still live). If you start adding Hard Come bets on non-come-out rolls, the base dealers will need to do a lot of chip moving and possibly lammer work, unless the bet is handled differently than I envision. I thought that would slow the game down too much.

Dan, are you suggesting that a single wagering area in the prop box could handle the bet regardless of if it's a comeout or not? I'm trying to see how that'd work without the stick hating me for making his job too hard. I agree, it's ideal if the procedure can be worked out so the bet can be made every roll. Then it'd get really interesting.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
mkl654321
mkl654321
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September 9th, 2010 at 10:36:16 PM permalink
Since the bet might not win even once in several hours, I don't think it would be very popular.

I didn't vote because there is no bet at craps that I WOULD make.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 10th, 2010 at 12:54:15 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Since the bet might not win even once in several hours, I don't think it would be very popular.

I didn't vote because there is no bet at craps that I WOULD make.



Huh??!!! Wrong! And you're a mathematician!

Concerning one variation of Math Extremeist (S.F's) bet - If you push on a natural thrown next, win on any hardways place number thrown next, and lose on an easy place number thrown next, then the math is:

12 naturals = no action, pushed, and still up for action...
20 = easy point numbers (4,5,6,8,9,10)
4 = hard 4,6,8,10.

from 36 possible two-dice combos.

4/20 = once in five rolls where decisions occur. That's NOT rare. And in version where it is rare, it ain't as rare as the Fire bet, not at all.

The fire bet doesn't win often either - except for once in several DAYS at some locations. So what?! A bad bet? No...Wish I had owned it....Jackpot bets are like that, but M.E's Hard Pass bet can be tailored for frequent hits like a hardways come bet, too, also innovative, - though you saw an infrequently hitting version that is closer to the Fire bet.

Let us not judge harshly...for MathExtremist IS a game designer who has production games being distributed - which is something VERY few people can say....

I was just at DEQ Systems today on Warm Springs & Bermuda here in Las Vegas, and Rob Scott (V.P. of new games development) pointed out a game (a sharp progressive BJ JP) that MathExtremist desgined himself and that went production. We used his real name in conversation. DEQ's position is that, "It's sharp, it's good, and we're selling it. Glad we have it."

As a fellow game designer, I think MathExtremist knows exactly what he's doing, and has come up with a Great crap game side bet idea that is VERY flexible, brilliant, and tailorable, - and after seeing HIS products being distributed by the same distributor that I use.

If there is no crap game wager that you would bet...then why reject a new crap bet, and how you would know? That admission is like a virgin discussing Dr. Ruth Westhiemer.

In designing a GOOD crap bet, you're designing something that they can win at (though not as often as the house, as is for ALL games), but that is EASIER to play, more interesting to play, and helps the house provide a table game experience that's better for all. And at a casino sometimes losing is winning, if you're there to have fun, shoot dice, and shoot the breeze. If you think you're at a casino to pay your mortgage, then we all wake up to our daytime jobs to do that.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 10th, 2010 at 1:26:37 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

You're right, but the only reason I'm hesitant to offer it is due to procedure concerns. As I currently see it, the number for the Hard Pass is indicated by the puck (if the bet is still live). If you start adding Hard Come bets on non-come-out rolls, the base dealers will need to do a lot of chip moving and possibly lammer work, unless the bet is handled differently than I envision. I thought that would slow the game down too much.

Dan, are you suggesting that a single wagering area in the prop box could handle the bet regardless of if it's a comeout or not? I'm trying to see how that'd work without the stick hating me for making his job too hard. I agree, it's ideal if the procedure can be worked out so the bet can be made every roll. Then it'd get really interesting.



M.E., I'm a crap dealer and Pai Gow dealer at Fiesta Henderson.

I think:
Yes - it's best handled by stick, though can be handled by either a base dealer or the stickman, with some pro's and con's that favor the stick somewhat in terms of procedures and quickness on a busy crap game. As a generic "hard pass and come," this is not hard for the stick position, but would be murder for a base dealer in midplay as a come-style bet. [The base dealer has two different Modes for come-out and for mid-play action. For the stick, it's all the same bet handling.] Your basic crap game idea is brilliant and very flexible, and a good crap game idea can be handled by either stick or base dealers, but your idea is best tailored for the stickman to handle on a busy game, saying this as a both crap dealer and game designer, even though my "big hit" was a Pai Gow product. [God willing, soon to be only a game designer.]

My opinions on your basic and flexible game are this, and I sent this to you under another cover, but is worth discussing here!:

1. I like both the stick handling it with a betting bar above the hardways, and also with the base dealer moving the wager from a come area wager line to a "hard box number" place bet area. A good game idea can be implemented in many ways - so as long as it starts out as a good game idea that's fun to play - which this one is! You ought to move on it, and get it ready for G2E, and get a showing at Fiesta!

2. If the bet is to be handled by the base dealer (not stickman), then a "hard pass/come" line strip can go alongside of the pass/don't pass lines - just inside the come area - as a hard pass/hard come "line." This way, it is the base dealer who handles it, and HE moves it up to the new "hardways area" on the place number. This also way gives the advantage that the hard pass is NOT an automatic parlay, - but defaults to "same bet" status - and the player gets paid 4 units on a hard point hit with the "hard pass/come" line, - with only ONE unit moving up to the "hard box."
AND...the player STILL has the option to say "press" or "parlay." A Very flexible way, and it's easy for the base dealer on the comeout roll, as he has little else to do on a comeout roll but to light the puck. (Not so when used as a hard come bet, though, procedure-wise, in mid-game with a lot of come bets, place bets, field bets, etc!)

3. If your hard pass/hard-come bet is more of a parlay nature by default, then the stickman/props area is better, - just above the hardways, IMHO. If a hardways rolls, parlay 5x to the hardways area for the player; easyway rolls - lock it up. Natural rolls - no action, stickman just processes the C&E, Horn Bet, etc, as he already does. Easy.
Player wants it down, player says to stick, "Take down my hard-6" - just like a player already does, no big deal. It is a LOT easier for stick to handle, because if a hardways is rolled, he just bumps it and makes it a hardways bet. If an easy point is rolled, he locks it up; if a natural is rolled, he leaves it alone and just handles his horn bets and C & E's.

4. This bet might not be good as a one-roll bet - it would be mimicking the HOP bets, (not popular with players and dealers), awkward, and constantly losing, so it would constantly have to be re-loaded, ug! This would risk "push back" by the casino, dealers, and players who are trying out your new bet.

5. If you have it start out as a come type of bet, where it loses on a crap number, but wins on a 7 or 11, the initial payout would be lower at 3:1 (because come-bets win more often on naturals, as 7 & 11 win 8 times, and it loses 4 times on a crap 2,3, or 12.) You would also have differing payouts: a 7 or 11 is even money, a hard point is 3:1, AND a crap number or easy-way is a loss. For one bet to have too many payouts is TOO complicated for crap dealers and players alike, and they will bad mouth it! Don't make it a horn bet!! By pushing on a natural, you ease processing for the dealers and the players to learn the bet, because "if it's a natural number, leave it alone, if it's a point number, it wins or loses, hard or easy."

Anyway, this new crap bet design is really brilliant, - SO much can be done with it - and with a layout that makes this new bet easy to deal and bet, it should get some monster action, and make you rich. You don't need to duplicate the Fire bet (because that's been done), so...

NOW THINK: An "Any hardway parlay" bet that's just ONE unit to play - and it's also EASY to play and deal - will be a hit. BIG TIME.
Nail down the table procedures and the artwork, and let it take off!
F>cking Brilliant!...I salute you...
Regards,
Dan
******************
Note: one tricky thing - because it doesn't lose on any natural, - so...it also doesn't lose on a Seven-out, unless it already became a hardways! THIS is why it should be placed in the prop area NEXT to and (- and just below or above) the ANY-7 bet BIG RED bet.
Stickman pays the existing hardways first, then parlays the new hardways to the hardways area.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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September 10th, 2010 at 6:38:18 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

You're right, but the only reason I'm hesitant to offer it is due to procedure concerns. As I currently see it, the number for the Hard Pass is indicated by the puck.


The procedure and puck indicator you described makes it simple enough for the stickman to operate on his own. Adding the Hard Come makes it just a little more complicated.

Currently, the FireBet is the only bet that cannot be made at any time. Any reasonable craps player understands the limitation of the betting for the FireBet. (Although I do NOT understand why, in some casinos, if the shooter's first roll is a 2/3/7/11/12, you can't still make the FireBet!)

If you make the Hard Pass a come-out only bet, people are gonna ask why, and complain. Heck, it may not even get to a casino floor because people will question it.

My suggestion is to allow the bet at any time. Put five boxes on each side for dealer control, or five in the middle for stick control.
For dealer control: One box (like the come box) to initiate the bet, and four boxes near the numbers to move the bet waiting for resolution.
For stick control: One box near the horn to initiate the bet, and four boxes near the hard boxes to move the bet waiting for resolution.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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September 10th, 2010 at 7:58:50 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

My suggestion is to allow the bet at any time. Put five boxes on each side for dealer control, or five in the middle for stick control.
For dealer control: One box (like the come box) to initiate the bet, and four boxes near the numbers to move the bet waiting for resolution.
For stick control: One box near the horn to initiate the bet, and four boxes near the hard boxes to move the bet waiting for resolution.



Okay, I'm going to try to figure this out and sketch a few possible layouts. I've already done the Hard Pass-only version with stick control, but that only needs one box because the puck gives the rest of the info. But you've convinced me to give the "any time" approach a go. A few basic mechanical questions:
1) Is there any way to upload images to this site? If not, I'll have to post them on mine and send links. For now I'll use ASCII art.
2) Is there a reference anywhere on the standard dimensions for craps layouts? I don't mean the felt, I mean the betting areas. For example, what are the dimensions of the Hard Four box, or the Place 6 box?

Right now, I'm thinking the any time option might be easier for dealer control - because all things equal, two dealers can work twice as fast as one stick thereby moving the game along more quickly if everyone's betting. Dan's suggestion is to have a player-booked area by the come box where players make the bet. If the next roll is a hard number, the bet would move to one of four boxes -- and right now, I see two possibilities. One is skinny vertical boxes in between the number boxes. Right now, the number boxes look like this:
[4][5][6][8][9][10]

I might add four one-chip-wide intermediate strips, like this:
[4][][5][][6][8][][9][][10]

where the blanks go from the top to bottom of the box, so there should be enough room for all the bets. This might expand the number boxes into the boxperson's working area, but hopefully not too much.
The other approach would be to set aside an area in the upper portion of the come box, closest to the center of the table with the four boxes. For example:

---------------------
| | [][][][]|
| | COME |
| | |
| ------------------
\-------------------/

where the strip around the outside of the COME box is the new Hard Pass/Hard Come betting area, or:

---------------------
| | [][]|
| | COME [][]|
| | |
| ------------------
\-------------------/


As dealers, which would you prefer? (a) Being a base dealer and moving the bets from a player-serviced wagering area to boxes near the numbers, or (b) being on stick, booking bets on a dealer-serviced wagering area, and then moving them to another numbered box in the prop area?

Thanks for all the feedback!
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
7craps
7craps
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September 10th, 2010 at 9:08:17 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

As dealers, which would you prefer? (a) Being a base dealer and moving the bets from a player-serviced wagering area to boxes near the numbers, or (b) being on stick, booking bets on a dealer-serviced wagering area, and then moving them to another numbered box in the prop area?

Thanks for all the feedback!


Since box and surveillance would be responsible for the bets, I choose the base dealer to set the bets in front of box, just as they do with the fire bet.
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)

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