NutJack ... a side-bet jackpot for live poker games

Quote: Paradigm

Here is my free input, value it for what it cost you: Make it a pre-deal bet only, for $1. Make it so you have to make it to the Showdown to win..........this means only one evaluation of 7 cards..........no 2, 5, 6 card nut hands work. If the hand doesn't make it to Showdown every bet is swept into the progressive pool........making it to Showdown is a requirement to get paid.

And call the bet what it is........"The Nuts". .

What if he has the nuts and makes a raise and everyone else folds? No more value bets? So, he will have to check down a "nuts" hand, giving up pot-equity for progressive equity?

I could keep the jackpot as simple as "Royal Flush suite of the day", it would just hit a lot more often. The rake would have to come from the pot just like existing jackpots, and then I could describe it in one sentence. I already have this described in my document as "Free-NutJack", so "in your words":

" "Free-NutJack" is a progressive jackpot for live Texas Hold'em, accumulated by a $1 rake from table pots > $20. You win the jackpot if your hand makes it to the Showdown and you have an unbeatable hand..........also known as "The Nuts"."

If it is to be an OPTIONAL wager, it has to be a "side-bet" that gets accumulated into a jackpot, and the money for this is separate from the table pots, so now I can describe it nearly the way you did:

" "NutJack side-bet" is a $1 Progressive side bet for live Texas Hold'em made before you receive your initial two cards. The side-bet wins the jackpot if your hand makes it to the Showdown and you have an unbeatable hand..........also known as "The Nuts". Otherwise, your sided-bet money is accumulated into the progressive jackpot."

Perhaps players who don't want anything to do with it will like the idea of it being optional. Otherwise, this has no benefit over "Free-NutJack"... the bet is being made blindly with an average 1% chance to win.

I can eliminate the confusion about sharing a Nut hand, as you have done in your description, but eventually it needs to be explained the same way divvied pots need to be explained for the game of Poker... that isn't simple.

NutJack stands for NUT hand JACKpot.

I don't do Provisionals any more, I only do Utilities.


Thanks for your time and for your suggestion. I have 2 Questions:

1) How does the jackpot get seeded? If the jackpot is empty, why would anyone risk betting at an overall 1% chance to hit it (blindly, at ante time)?
2) The simple game you suggest has no advantages over existing jackpots, why should they play it?

So I agree with Teliot's point, this progressive would have an impact on the live game.......that is a problem.

Anything that needs to be explained should be necessary for game play........having to explain the name doesn't meet that criteria and the meaning of Nut Jack isn't obvious nor does it contribute to the clarity of the game concept.

The Jackpot will get seeded the same way every progressive bet gets seeded.

The simple game I suggested is likely not the right answer..........my point was the complicated concept you have today has no chance of being implemented. Put on your thinking cap and see if you can find a simple game within your concept that won't impact the live play, can be explained in at most two short sentences and won't create any increase in ambiguity at the table.

Quote: Paradigm

The simple game I suggested is likely not the right answer..........my point was the complicated concept you have today has no chance of being implemented. Put on your thinking cap and see if you can find a simple game within your concept that won't impact the live play, can be explained in at most two short sentences and won't create any increase in ambiguity at the table.

Right. Interesting kernel of an idea, but the current implementation is a non-starter. You'll know when you hit the right game design because everything will click into place and there won't be any "well, except..."

Quote: Paradigm

So I agree with Teliot's point, this progressive would have an impact on the live game.......that is a problem.

The simple version of the game you are suggesting does not impact the live game other than the "requirement" to run-out the hand if everyone else folds to a player who made the NJ-side-bet. Again, I covered that in my 122 word description.

Quote: Paradigm

Anything that needs to be explained should be necessary for game play........having to explain the name doesn't meet that criteria and the meaning of Nut Jack isn't obvious nor does it contribute to the clarity of the game concept.

In my write-up, "NutJack side-bet" is defined in the first sentence. The name NutJack being for NUT hand JACK pot makes a lot of sense (to me), and I hope it will instantly stick with whomever hears it.

Quote: Paradigm

The Jackpot will get seeded the same way every progressive bet gets seeded.

Please explain this to me: how does an optional side-bet jackpot get seeded? From a rake of the table pot? I have this described as "Free NutJack", but in this case, there is no need to make the bet optional, in fact there's no need to make it at all, it would always be in effect and evaluated for pot winners, just like "Royal Flush suite of the day".

If this is an OPTIONAL"$1 bet" that accumulates into a Jackpot when lost, then that's how the jackpot gets accumulated... you wouldn't MIX a rake with a side-bet, would you?? Maybe this is needed to seed the jackpot until there's enough in it to make players want to make the side-bet. That's why in some of my game variations, I suggest taking a $1 rake from table pots > $20 until there is, say, $25 accumulated, or I suggested to force the small blind to make the bet until there is $25 accumulated... these are two ways of "MIXING" rakes and $1, optional side-bets (placed at ante time). Again, I think that we need it because the odds are only 1% of hitting it when made (blindly) at ante time, which is what you're suggesting.

Do you know of / can you suggest another way? How does it work in Caribbean stud? The bet is taken at ante, and it goes into a separate accumulation... but then how does it get seeded originally?? ANYONE??

Quote: Paradigm

The simple game I suggested is likely not the right answer..........my point was the complicated concept you have today has no chance of being implemented. Put on your thinking cap and see if you can find a simple game within your concept that won't impact the live play, can be explained in at most two short sentences and won't create any increase in ambiguity at the table.

I GET WHAT YOUR SAYING, I'M TRYING TO WORK IT THROUGH AND MAKE IT SIMPLE AND DESIRABLE. I do appreciate your suggestions and you time and interest!

You have yet to answer question #2... why would anyone want to play it if its just another jackpot like "Royal Flush suite of the day"?

Seeding jackpots? The same way any other jackpot get seeded.

The casino comes up with a number, then takes a portion of the coin in to cover that amount. Once that amount is covered the jackpot meter starts running a little faster. If the jackpot gets hit before there's enough money to cover it, they just take it out of the next jackpot or adjust percentages.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Seeding jackpots? The same way any other jackpot get seeded.

The casino comes up with a number, then takes a portion of the coin in to cover that amount. Once that amount is covered the jackpot meter starts running a little faster.

That is not how jackpots are seeded or progressives work. At least not the ones I've designed, and I've built them for table games and slots multiple times over the last decade. How about an example?

Suppose a progressive wager is designed so that it hits with frequency once every 10000 hands. Suppose a player pays $1 to play it. Suppose you want the progressive to have a 10% edge. Here is how it is designed, say with a $1000 seed:

Step 1. Seed the jackpot at $1000.
Step 2. We want the average prize to be $9000, so we simply take the difference ($9000 - $1000) and divide by the win frequency (10,000) to get the percentage of each $1 that goes into the progressive.
Step 3. The progressive increments $0.80 for each $1.00 wagered.

With a $2000 seed, you would keep $0.70 for each $1.00 wagered.

Change the frequency to 1-in-5000, with a 10% edge and a $1000 seed and you increment 0..35 for each $1.00 wagered.

And so on. (Hopefully I did the arithmetic correctly).

If the casino goes upside down with the seed, well, that's too bad for them. If they get well ahead on the progressive, they can certainly bank some of their profits to re-seed in the future, but there is no particular reason to do so.

That's how it works. There is no separate pool set aside for seeding. Those who argue there is a separate pool are just using an accounting trick, where the casino can "loan" the progressive from one account and pay the loan off when the progressive has accumulated enough overage. There is no change in the rate the meter moves. There are a seed and an increment, based on an easy formula having to do with the frequency of winning, the wager size and the desired house edge.

I've never seen a table game progressive go up 80¢ for every $1.00 bet. It's usually 30¢ or less.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I've never seen a table game progressive go up 80¢ for every $1.00 bet. It's usually 30¢ or less.

Just an example! Sheesh. Just seed higher and take out less. Same thing.

As a regular player, I might not like this merely because I beat the games and don't want the casino taking money out of them. That has little to do with if the concept would fly.

I think it would be fun though. The best scenarios would be when you tried to maneuver things so you could get 95% of the money in, then make the nutjack bet at the last minute. You could also make some crazy bluffs by faking like you are doing this.

One potential flaw could be the AA preflop. There are a lot of old white guy types who ALREADY try to take down the pot preflop with AA with huge overbets because they are so afraid of losing. They would love this, but I think everyone else would find it frustrating and if you get even more people making dumb over bets pre with AA, those are often unraked hands, which casinos don't like.

Maybe you could sort out some of the confusion by limiting the NJ bet to specified hands: Top SF, Top Quads, Top FH, Top Flush, Top Straight or Top Set -- if and only if these hands are the stone cold nuts when the bet is placed.

Most players know "stone cold nuts" to mean the best hand anyone could ever have on a given board. The stone cold nuts don't change if a card has been exposed or is in your hand. That stuff just might make it impossible to have them.

However, if you paid attention to a key exposed card, and your opponent didn't, it might be a good time to use the NJ to bluff.

Quote: teliot

That is not how jackpots are seeded or progressives work...

I defer to your expertise.

The method I described was how it was once described to me. Of course, that was in reference to a Bad Beat jackpot, which may get funded differently than a slot progressive, etc.

BBJPs usually have a secondary and tertiary jackpot that the other portions of the rake for it go into. I believe the $5 PGP progressive works the same way as well.

Quote: teliot

That is not how jackpots are seeded or progressives work. At least not the ones I've designed, and I've built them for table games and slots multiple times over the last decade. How about an example?

Suppose a progressive wager is designed so that it hits with frequency once every 10000 hands. Suppose a player pays $1 to play it. Suppose you want the progressive to have a 10% edge. Here is how it is designed, say with a $1000 seed:

Step 1. Seed the jackpot at $1000.
Step 2. We want the average prize to be $9000, so we simply take the difference ($9000 - $1000) and divide by the win frequency (10,000) to get the percentage of each $1 that goes into the progressive.
Step 3. The progressive increments $0.80 for each $1.00 wagered.

With a $2000 seed, you would keep $0.70 for each $1.00 wagered.

Change the frequency to 1-in-5000, with a 10% edge and a $1000 seed and you increment 0..35 for each $1.00 wagered.

And so on. (Hopefully I did the arithmetic correctly).

If the casino goes upside down with the seed, well, that's too bad for them. If they get well ahead on the progressive, they can certainly bank some of their profits to re-seed in the future, but there is no particular reason to do so.

That's how it works. There is no separate pool set aside for seeding. Those who argue there is a separate pool are just using an accounting trick, where the casino can "loan" the progressive from one account and pay the loan off when the progressive has accumulated enough overage. There is no change in the rate the meter moves. There are a seed and an increment, based on an easy formula having to do with the frequency of winning, the wager size and the desired house edge.

We've seeded a little differently. When we get a new game we seed the jackpot with $5,000. From the opening of the game, a certain percentage goes into the main jackpot growing, a certain percentage goes into the jackpot replenishment fund. When the main replenishment fund gets to be enough to cover the seed money and has enough in there to start the jackpot over a couple of times, the $5,000 seed money is removed from the replenishment. The replenishement fund, once grown enough to support multiple jackpot resets, is also used for promotions on the game. For example, I ran Aces Cracked on our Texas Shootout game for a month. Anyone who lost to the dealer with pocket aces got $50.


Zcore13

Its been a few years since I posted this thread. But now, something new and exciting can make the Nut-Jack bet actually possible to implement...

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/30552-four-card-prime/#post637324

This is a new post by TheWizardOfVegas describing a new gaming system that could implement the Nut-Jack bet and addresses most, if not all of the negative issues that were discussed in this thread. Here is my take on it...


So, they have an automated mechanism for accumulating a bad-beat bonus and applying that to a two-phase, multi-player game... two betting/decision phases, in this case, the ante and the flop.

I assume that this technology can be extended into multi-phased games like Texas hold-em, with different rules for each game phase... ante, pre-flop, flop, turn and river. They can analyze the hands and make determinations for winners/losers, determine eligibility for jackpots and pay accumulated jackpots, all automatically. I suppose it could also handle the complex computations involved with seeding the jackpots as well.

A game system like this can play increasingly complex games... games that you cannot describe in two sentences or less. And yet, people can play these games, even if they don't fully understand the rules governing jackpot eligibility. RIGHT??

OK, now, what about my old idea of a jackpot for having the nut hand... remember Nut-Jack??
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/23016-nutjack-a-side-bet-jackpot-for-live-poker-games/7/#post480782

The negative issues that were debated in-depth on this thread included:

--It seemed straightforward, but the exact definition of a nut-hand was unclear, even to the seasoned pros here on WoV. There were also concerns about paying jackpots that might have had to be split up among several winners.

--There were concerns about the complexity of allowing the bet at various game phases... the later-phase bets having a direct effect upon the live play of the hand.

--There were concerns about handling these bets when other players fold... whether to deal the hand out at a cost of delaying cycle-time, and whether to expose the hand's outcome.

--There were concerns over the handling of scenarios where card(s) are accidentally exposed.

--There were problems with the complexity of the various methods by which these Nut-Jack bets could be implemented... from very simple always-play jackpots (like the bad-beat, I called this Fee-Nut-Jack) to optional ante-play (like Caribbean-Stud) to optional play allowed at various / multiple phases of the game. I had also made several suggestions for seeding the jackpot, and stated that the system-configurations had an impact upon which of these methods should be deployed, for example, in casinos that have electronic capabilities and that can span these offering over several poker tables/poker rooms would be better off using certain methods over those casinos that had to play each table independently. This was all viewed as being very negative... it didn't pass the two-sentence explanation test.

HOWEVER, nearly all of these concerns are addressed by the technology being deployed in this new gaming system!!

Should I resurrect the Nut-Jack bet or just forget about it?

After 7 pages of this thread, could I possibly be the only one whose first thought was Nut Sack?

Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is something to consider.

Quote: FCBLComish

After 7 pages of this thread, could I possibly be the only one whose first thought was Nut Sack?

Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is something to consider.

I was looking for posts poking fun at the Nut Jack name and came out sore ly disappointed

I play poker. And I read through the description of the Nut Jack side bet and about 1/3 of the posts on this thread.

IMO, this Nut Jack side bet is a bad idea and its write-up is inadequate.

1. What are the criteria for winning the bet? Th 1st nut hand and the 2nd nut hand? the 3rd nut hand? the 4th nut hand? When is a hand not good enough to win the Nut Jack sidebet?

2. Making a $10 side-bet when there is a $480 pot (the example given in the explanation) is a complete distraction to the poker action. With $480 in the middle, nobody cares if you take a $10 bill, set it on fire and stick it up your nose. Its simply not relevant either way to the poker action, and neither is a $10 sidebet.

3. It is uncommon for a player to believe that he has the nuts in Texas Hold'em. It is extraordinarily uncommon for two players in the same hand to believe they have the nuts. This sidebet would get no action from poker players, IMO.

I'm sorry, but this idea does not pass the Ho-Ho test. Please bury this entire thread in an unmarked grave.

Quote: gamerfreak

I was looking for posts poking fun at the Nut Jack name and came out sore ly disappointed

I was thinking it'd be an ideal product for those Duluth Trading Company commercials. ...And with that out of the way, time to actually read the post.

...

1. Why the name? If there's "jack" in the name like that, I automatically associate it with blackjack.
2. If I understand the recent addition properly, people are supposed to be making this bet without a clear idea what qualifies, how it wins, how much it pays, etc. and just assume that everything works out right? Uhm. Seems complex.

Quote: gordonm888

I play poker. And I read through the description of the Nut Jack side bet and about 1/3 of the posts on this thread.

IMO, this Nut Jack side bet is a bad idea and its write-up is inadequate.

1. What are the criteria for winning the bet? Th 1st nut hand and the 2nd nut hand? the 3rd nut hand? the 4th nut hand? When is a hand not good enough to win the Nut Jack sidebet?

2. Making a $10 side-bet when there is a $480 pot (the example given in the explanation) is a complete distraction to the poker action. With $480 in the middle, nobody cares if you take a $10 bill, set it on fire and stick it up your nose. Its simply not relevant either way to the poker action, and neither is a $10 sidebet.

3. It is uncommon for a player to believe that he has the nuts in Texas Hold'em. It is extraordinarily uncommon for two players in the same hand to believe they have the nuts. This sidebet would get no action from poker players, IMO.

I'm sorry, but this idea does not pass the Ho-Ho test. Please bury this entire thread in an unmarked grave.

Sorry about the long droning explanations. This was initial given positive encouragement by WoV standards... some of the high-level gaming specialists even said "run with it"!

1) - Please see this document and scroll down a page or so for the Wikipedia definition of a nut hand. There is a possibility that a nut hand can be split up among > 1 player, for example, the board on the river is 3-3-3-3-7; now everyone holding an ace is a nut - winner, and the jackpot would be split if there were > 1.

2) - (game phases for Texas holdem are: ante, pre-flop, flop, turn, river) The possibility of making Nut-Jack side-bets at later phases of the game brings unconventional action into the live game; it is unique among poker side bets. In the example above, let's say that the board on the river is 3-3-3-3-7. OK, in that rare scenario, anyone with an ace now has the nut hand and they KNOW they have it and know that they must win or at least tie the winning hand. The Nut-Jack bet can be THEN made, knowing IN ADVANCE that the jackpot will be awarded, which is unique for jackpot bets. But how can a $10 bet effect the live game with a $480 pot? If I make the bet, I am conveying to everyone at the table that I have an ace... why else would I spend the $10... if I don't have the ace, I would lose the $10. On the other hand, I might make that bet as a BLUFF... trying to show strength. This also makes the Nut-Jack side bet unique, in that it is "a sanctioned way of showing hand-strength".

3) Nut hands are more common than you think, but they are rare enough to warrant making a progressive jackpot for. It really depends on the first 2 cards dealt, as this website clearly documents...

https://caniwin.com/poker/texas-holdem/pre-flop/nut-odds/

I do value your opinions and thank you for your interest and your patients trying to read through the descriptions.

Quote: gamerfreak

I was looking for posts poking fun at the Nut Jack name and came out sore ly disappointed

From my write-up:

Please note that:

This is real terminology, accepted by the industry, for example, HERE is another source that uses this same terminology.

”Nut Hand”, “The nuts”, “He has the nuts” is no joke, and “Nut-Jack side-bet” is an appropriate name for our new wager. SERIOUSLY!

It is a JACKpot for NUT hands.

(deleted)

Quote: Venthus

I was thinking it'd be an ideal product for those Duluth Trading Company commercials. ...And with that out of the way, time to actually read the post.

...

1. Why the name? If there's "jack" in the name like that, I automatically associate it with blackjack.
2. If I understand the recent addition properly, people are supposed to be making this bet without a clear idea what qualifies, how it wins, how much it pays, etc. and just assume that everything works out right? Uhm. Seems complex.

1) See the Nut-Jack name discussion above.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/23016-nutjack-a-side-bet-jackpot-for-live-poker-games/7/#post637549

2) That's kind-of what I said but if you read through the entire thread above, the actual definition of a nut hand became a bit elusive, even for the seasoned pros here on WoV. Many members, like DJTeddyBear understood it and kept trying to state it simply.

The new gaming system would be able to simply make the correct determination in all of the scenarios possible. My point was that, even for those who need help understanding all of the detailed scenarios, they can depend on the hardware to make the right determinations. I was using the new pay tables for the game of four card poker as an example of such complexity. ANYONE WHO PLAYS POKER KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT A NUT HAND IS; the complexities arose from obscure scenarios like what happens if a card is exposed, effecting what the nut hand might be. But this example scenario would never happen in an electronic implementation... my point for resurrecting this thread.

Seems complex? Do you know what a nut hand is? If you do, its not complicated at all. If you make the side-bet and you win with a nut hand, you win the jackpot. If you make the side-bet and you don't win the pot with a nut-hand, the money is accumulated into the jackpot.

Thanks for your interest.