Galaxy's "WPT Heads Up Poker" @ G2E
Quote: rdw4potusSure. And we've all seen people bet 3x on MS Stud with utter sh*t, or let-it-ride improperly. Or we could start in on any number of blackjack mistakes that players are freely allowed to make. Why should the game design add complication to "protect" players who choose to be stupidly conservative?
We can't protect players from all bone-headed plays, like raising 3x on 7-2 offsuit, - as his hole cards are hidden in any case.
But we can protect players from raising 1x on very strong hole cards, because if he is at a statistical advantage, then he should raise 3x. Now that can be detected during reasonable play without having the player expose his hole cards, simply by noticing a wrong raise amount at that particular point in the round.
In this regard, it is a bit like preventing a player from hitting a hard 20 in Blackjack, or doubling a 6 against a dealer's Ace, as reasonable game play rules and guidelines. That much can be done.
And again, it is a bit like removing the "corner 6 & 8" on crap tables, as the place 6 and 8 are better and fairer bets.
Quote: CRMousseauQuote: rdw4potusLOL! It's not THAT bad.
It's almost exactly that bad.
Pocket kings are about 82.5% to beat a random hand. That's a 65% overlay. Betting 1x preflop instead of 3x preflop as an error costs you 1.30 units. Conversely, hard 20 against a ten turns a +0.56 winner into a -0.85 loser, or about 1.41 units.
And as Dan correctly pointed out, the player can functionally do exactly that by posting 1x blind on the river.
Can we pick a less ridiculous hand as an example? It's nice that you can find a hand to fit the point (and thanks for not picking AA), but how about looking at something like K7 suited?
Quote: rdw4potusQuote: CRMousseauQuote: rdw4potusLOL! It's not THAT bad.
It's almost exactly that bad.
Pocket kings are about 82.5% to beat a random hand. That's a 65% overlay. Betting 1x preflop instead of 3x preflop as an error costs you 1.30 units. Conversely, hard 20 against a ten turns a +0.56 winner into a -0.85 loser, or about 1.41 units.
And as Dan correctly pointed out, the player can functionally do exactly that by posting 1x blind on the river.
Can we pick a less ridiculous hand as an example? It's nice that you can find a hand to fit the point (and thanks for not picking AA), but how about looking at something like K7 suited?
K7 is a very fine example also. Thank you.
K7 suited should never be raised 1x at the hole card point. It is the worst move you can make with that as your hole cards.
It should be raised 3x (which is allowed), or checked until the flop (also allowed), - and where you can still bet 2x on the flop - instead of being locked in at 1x.
As a matter of fact, since you can raise 1x all the way to the river card, then why would you bet 1x on your hole cards blind at any time? By checking and waiting, you can bet 2x on the flop if you pair the board.
Quote: IbeatyouracesMy way would be:
3x, 2x, 1x or check preflop
2x, 1x or check on flop
1x or fold on river
I've got no sympathy for uninformed gamblers.
Mine, too.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI see K,7 suited get raised pre flop about 0.05% of the time.
I didn't realize that we'd played together before! :-P
Quote: IbeatyouracesMy way would be:
3x, 2x, or 1x preflop
2x or 1x on flop
1x or fold on river
Very fine. Look forward to seeing your game.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI've got no sympathy for uninformed gamblers.
I do. We were all once beginners. The biggest Harley-Davison enthusiast may have had a bicycle with training wheels when he was five.
Casino operators and manufacturers do not, or should not, consider the patrons or operators dupes, and we should put in reasonable game protections for BOTH the casino AND the player.
Quote: rdw4potusQuote: CRMousseauQuote: rdw4potusLOL! It's not THAT bad.
It's almost exactly that bad.
Pocket kings are about 82.5% to beat a random hand. That's a 65% overlay. Betting 1x preflop instead of 3x preflop as an error costs you 1.30 units. Conversely, hard 20 against a ten turns a +0.56 winner into a -0.85 loser, or about 1.41 units.
And as Dan correctly pointed out, the player can functionally do exactly that by posting 1x blind on the river.
Can we pick a less ridiculous hand as an example? It's nice that you can find a hand to fit the point (and thanks for not picking AA), but how about looking at something like K7 suited?
Can we first agree you were in error rather than play the classic "lol you're wrong, whoops, lol it's not important" routine? Sarcasm and derision in the face of being corrected really is unbecoming.
And your "thanks for not picking AA" aside, I've seen even aces checked preflop on plenty occasions at UTH, and yes, KK and QQ on far too many occasions to enumerate. And in UTH, checking them preflop (4x vs 2x) is just as big an error, well over 1 unit, as raising 1x preflop in Galaxy's HUP game.
I strongly believe that the removal of the "unused fourth X" and replaced with value the player cannot give away through misplays, is going to make this game a simply better experience for the "standard sub-standard" player, and they are legion. If a player who rarely makes a 4x raise sees the two games side by side, he will conclude he's just getting free value. Time will tell.
Quote: CRMousseauQuote: rdw4potusQuote: CRMousseauQuote: rdw4potusLOL! It's not THAT bad.
It's almost exactly that bad.
Pocket kings are about 82.5% to beat a random hand. That's a 65% overlay. Betting 1x preflop instead of 3x preflop as an error costs you 1.30 units. Conversely, hard 20 against a ten turns a +0.56 winner into a -0.85 loser, or about 1.41 units.
And as Dan correctly pointed out, the player can functionally do exactly that by posting 1x blind on the river.
Can we pick a less ridiculous hand as an example? It's nice that you can find a hand to fit the point (and thanks for not picking AA), but how about looking at something like K7 suited?
Can we first agree you were in error rather than play the classic "lol you're wrong, whoops, lol it's not important" routine? Sarcasm and derision in the face of being corrected really is unbecoming.
And your "thanks for not picking AA" aside, I've seen even aces checked preflop on plenty occasions at UTH, and yes, KK and QQ on far too many occasions to enumerate. And in UTH, checking them preflop (4x vs 2x) is just as big an error, well over 1 unit, as raising 1x preflop in Galaxy's HUP game.
I strongly believe that the removal of the "unused fourth X" and replaced with value the player cannot give away through misplays, is going to make this game a simply better experience for the "standard sub-standard" player, and they are legion. If a player who rarely makes a 4x raise sees the two games side by side, he will conclude he's just getting free value. Time will tell.
Maybe I was wrong. So far, you've proved it only with respect to a hand that very very very few players would check pre-flop. Prove it again with a more questionable starting hand, and we'll talk. It feels like there's a reason that you haven't taken that step.
And I don't think I understand your last paragraph at all. UTH does have a 4x pre-flop bet, but it does not allow 2x or 1x betting pre-flop either. So you're not "replacing it with value the player cannot give away...." Those plays are also not available in the competitive game.
If a game is to get to One Thousand installs, it is because the designer lets neither the casino or the player hang the player!
Fair chance at the game - as much as possible.
Quote: PaigowdanIf a game is to get to One Thousand installs, it is because the designer lets neither the casino or the player hang the player!
The most installed game in this country allows the player to hang himself in just about any conceivable way. Sure, the dealer will get pretty incredulous pretty fast, but they're not allowed to stop a player from hitting a hard 20 or doubling a hard 3.
Quote: rdw4potus[On getting to 1,000 installs] The most installed game in this country allows the player to hang himself in just about any conceivable way. Sure, the dealer will get pretty incredulous pretty fast, but they're not allowed to stop a player from hitting a hard 20 or doubling a hard 3.
Things are changing, albeit slowly. And this isn't Blackjack, a legacy game.
Most people play BJ well enough, especially in mature markets like Las Vegas or AC.
New games have to be better, safer, faster - to do well, especially if there is a serious strategy to it.
Look, we designed these new details as best we could, and I think it all shines through, what can I tell ya.
Quote: Paigowdan
Look, we designed these new details as best we could, and I think it all shines through, what can I tell ya.
Let me be clear - this sounds like a truly great game. It's one I'm definitely looking forward to playing. What we're talking about here is a point that would make the difference between me rating it a 96 or 99 on a 100 point scale.
No Violins or anything here, but we really do all that we can to try to make gambling a great thing. It is my juice. (...and here's to Mike, for starting this special, crazy forum...)
I made $100 playing another player's KJs.Quote: IbeatyouracesYou can make a killing betting on other players checks!
Then I lost $100 betting on their A2o.
Oh well, what's that about having a good bet?
Quote: rdw4potusAnd I don't think I understand your last paragraph at all. UTH does have a 4x pre-flop bet, but it does not allow 2x or 1x betting pre-flop either. So you're not "replacing it with value the player cannot give away...." Those plays are also not available in the competitive game.
I think the value being referred to here is in WPT Heads Up either the dealer doesn't have to qualify to get paid on the ante or, in the dealer qualifier hand version of WPT Heads Up, the Bad Beat pay on the odds bet is an adder over UTH and doesn't require any additional wager.
Essentially WPT Heads Up gives you one of these two features (no dealer qualifier or 'free' Bad Beat pay) in exchange for taking away one unit from the maximum bet pre-flop (i.e. max 3X vs. max 4X in UTH).
Quote: ParadigmI think the value being referred to here is in WPT Heads Up either the dealer doesn't have to qualify to get paid on the ante or, in the dealer qualifier hand version of WPT Heads Up, the Bad Beat pay on the odds bet is an adder over UTH and doesn't require any additional wager.
Essentially WPT Heads Up gives you one of these two features (no dealer qualifier or 'free' Bad Beat pay) in exchange for taking away one unit from the maximum bet pre-flop (i.e. max 3X vs. max 4X in UTH).
While I didn't get into it in greater detail, we DO have two versions, one a Bad Beat version, which is our "primary' version and got most of the attention, but I also happen to think a LOT of the......
[AND NOW A WORD FROM OUR SPONSOR:] (since it's been another 20 minutes of airtime...)
Quote: MrCasinoGamesIt's a table game variation of Casino Holdem® (The First Texas Hold'em Against the Casino/Dealer ©2000). - not UTH or any other Texas Hold'em Against the Casino/Dealer.
This from the WIZ :
The above analysis was performed using a brute force combinatorial program that analyzed all 27,813,810,024,000 possible outcomes, and played every hand according to optimal player strategy. It took my computers about a month to crank though the 27.8 trillion hands.
27.8 TRILLION ! WOW !
Casino Holdem® will be at the G2E in DEQ's Booth.
Casino Holdem®.
<back to our regularly scheduled programming....>
....second version of Heads Up Hold 'em, which is a qualifier-free version that has gotten surprisingly little note here aside from you, Michael (and thank you!). One of the minor pet peeves or side effects of the game (both UTH and Heads Up Hold 'em with Bad Beat) is the ANTE push when the dealer lacks a pair or better, so there is also a qualifier-free version to effect a "full pay" sense of the game for the player......
[Couldn't resist, building on Buzz's poke....I was a bit irked about the earlier commercial interruption. Listen, I don't put up ads for EZ Pai Gow with graphics out of the blue during other discussions, etc., I just argue game merits and characteristics....]
Please visit my new page on Heads Up Hold 'Em to see the results. I welcome all comments, questions, and corrections.
Quote: WizardMy Heads Up Hold 'Em program finally finished.
Please visit my new page on Heads Up Hold 'Em to see the results. I welcome all comments, questions, and corrections.
Looks very sharp, Mike! Thank you for your interest!
Quote: PaigowdanQuote: WizardMy Heads Up Hold 'Em program finally finished.
Please visit my new page on Heads Up Hold 'Em to see the results. I welcome all comments, questions, and corrections.
Looks very sharp, Mike! Thank you for your interest!
I found one error already while ~drunk (our thanksgiving was today/my alma mater (Mizzou) won the SEC East in football tonight). Table 1 and 4 Trips Payouts are identical, but the house edges aren't.
Dan, Galaxy has the patent for the "mandatory blind" bet, right? I think U said SHFL licensed this feature from Galaxy. Is the price reasonable? hahahaQuote: PaigowdanQuote: WizardMy Heads Up Hold 'Em program finally finished.
Please visit my new page on Heads Up Hold 'Em to see the results. I welcome all comments, questions, and corrections.
Looks very sharp, Mike! Thank you for your interest!
Quote: tringlomaneI found one error already while ~drunk (our thanksgiving was today/my alma mater (Mizzou) won the SEC East in football tonight). Table 1 and 4 Trips Payouts are identical, but the house edges aren't.
Keep drinking, my friend. And Good for Mizzou!
Mike listed all four Trips pay tables available together below - after listing the main trips pay table alone as the primary.
Quote: UCivanDan, Galaxy has the patent for the "mandatory blind" bet, right? I think U said SHFL licensed this feature from Galaxy. Is the price reasonable? hahaha.
I don't know the licensing arrangements, but I know we have it. Trust me, our headquarters would have caught fire if we hadn't had the right.
Quote: PaigowdanMike listed the four known Trips+ pay tables - after listing the main trips+ pay table alone.
He fixed the error I originally mentioned, but...
Now the main trips paytable he has detailed, doesn't match paytable 3 like I'm guessing it should. 8/7/4 should have a house edge of 3.34%?
Quote: HunterhillPaigow Dan, what happened with the version that the dealer always qualified?
We still have it as an alternate version; it is fully developed with lab math. However, it is not the priority of the two.
I like the qualifier-free mechanism a great deal. One of the more annoying aspects of a casino poker game is to have the ANTE pushed back to you on a win, - and the net result is that you STILL push, betting unit wise, if you played a bonus. Now this gets rid of that aspect, as every win is full pay. However, we had to crunch down the bonus pay on the straight or better and raise it to a flush for the bonus pay, so the net effect is that it "looks" less attractive.
One comment, Mike: the flop and river strategies are identical for HUH and UTH, save for that the player should now call with any quads, even with a hand like 43 on a K-K-K-K-2 board, for bad beat purposes.
Quote: ParadigmI originally was a big fan of the "no qualifier" version, but now I am not so sure. I can see having four to a flush on the board with a baby card of the flush suit in your hand.....you actually want the dealer to beat you as you undoubtedly did not 2x or 4x the hand. Now with Trips and Bad Beat version you are set to win 13 units net if you lose to the dealer and 10.5 units if you beat the dealer.....you are actually wanting to get beat!
Not .... quite... true. Sometimes you will make a max pre flop raise with a small pair (say, two black threes) and there are four spades on board.
Quote: CRMousseauthe flop and river strategies are identical for HUH and UTH, save for that the player should now call with any quads, even with a hand like 43 on a K-K-K-K-2 board, for bad beat purposes.
Thanks. That makes sense. I just updated my page to reflect that advice.
Quote: IbeatyouracesHere's a question for PGDan. As discussed in a couple of UTH threads, some casinos are forcing players to make the play bet in that game to get paid for any winning trips bet even though they have an obvious losing play hand. How will this be handled in HUHE?
Players do not have to make the play bet in any official "game rule" capacity to win on the Bonus bets. Fold your hand and the cards are tucked under the side bet(s).
However, many local joints may get things wrong or enforce rules above and beyond our game specs, or have Internal Controls that override things. Our gracious, sophisticated and diplomatic sales force may discuss with local operators the best way to handle things. Do be aware that losing straights or better now should be played, so only trips would be an issue. (KKK72 on the board and you're holding 4-3 offsuit, etc.)
Quote: CRMousseauNot .... quite... true. Sometimes you will make a max pre flop raise with a small pair (say, two black threes) and there are four spades on board.
That makes sense, there is a reason you are the expert :-).
