Galaxy's "WPT Heads Up Poker" @ G2E
The rules as approved by the Washington State Gambling Commission are seen here: WPT Heads Up Hold'em
From what I can gather, the game differs from UTH in allowing a max 3X raise after your first two cards, slightly shrinking the blind pay table (or "Odds" pay table with 40-1 vs. 50-1 on SF and 1-1 vs. 1.5-1 on Flushes) but getting rid of the dealer qualification requirement of a pair or better to get paid on the Ante bet.
There does appear to be a game version where the dealer requirement of at least a pair is left in the game but also added in that version is a "Bad Beat" component to the Blind Bet.
It looks like Dan & Co have found a way to eliminate the dealer qualification in a UTH type game or alternatively have left the dealer qualification in but added a Bad Beat pay off without the requirement of a separate Bad Beat wager being made.
I kind of like the new twists added to a Texas Hold'em heads up game and don't mind being limited to 3X max raise to get rid of the dealer qualifying requirement. I think I prefer the "No Dealer Qualifying Hand" version to the Bad Beat version with the qualifier, but that is just personal preference.
Dan will have to enlighten us on the HE based on optimum strategy....which of course 98% of players won't be playing!
Quote: McDemonYawn, not another Poker variations...where's the innovation?
The innovation is the fact that the game has an "automatic Bad Beat" feature where your main bet wins if you lose with a straight or better - all without you having to make a separate side bet, in order to be eligible for that bad beat payout.
That's the first thing, and that's pretty innovative.
The second is that there is the version of the game without a dealer qualifier - and that ALL hands play at all times. A qualifier-free version of a UTH type game - where your winning ANTE bet is never "pushed - to be pushed back to you" - is also innovative.
Quote: IbeatyouracesNothing more then a couple of UTH rule changes if you ask me.
Yes. But they are a couple of very good rule changes, - eye-catching stuff that we believe will play out very well.
And we feel the endorsement of the World Poker Tour is also a very positive statement on the game.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI actually think it may work better for all those risk adverse people who check good hands preflop only to win on a dealer non qualifier and get a push on the ante whereas now they'll get paid on it.
I think that may be significant for ploppies.....they never seem to raise 3X-4X on their first two cards, so by taking some away there and giving it back to them on the "Ante Always Pays" rule, you make the game less volatile for that crowd....that should mean longer time on device but may also have an impact on the game performance for the house.
All I hear from operators is that UTH is a 30%+ hold game, but players keep on playing it. You normally would get player burn out with those kinds of hold numbers...but they aren't and that is a testament to Pacman/SHFL's product.
Galaxy's version may provide a slightly less volatile experience for average players and give them longer on the game. Perhaps even with the same eventual hold numbers if players do play longer. The market will tell them how the game performs once it gets out there.
From an operator stand point, WPT Heads Up Poker gives them a legitimate non-SHFL Texas Hold'em game option to put on the floor.....I think that is the most significant development here. You may not pull UTH and put this in as UTH has become a staple/standard, but if you were going to add a second/third UTH table, you might consider this product as I bet the lease rates are going to be cheaper as Galaxy looks to get the game out there.
Quote: IbeatyouracesNothing more then a couple of UTH rule changes if you ask me.
Keep in mind the UTH is not the only Hold 'Em table game out there.
This is another.
It's a table game variation of Hold 'Em - not UTH.
Anyway I am always happy to see new games. Good Luck Dan
Quote: DJTeddyBearKeep in mind the UTH is not the only Hold 'Em table game out there.
This is another.
It's a table game variation of Hold 'Em - not UTH.
It's a table game variation of Casino Holdem® (The First Texas Hold'em Against the Casino/Dealer ©2000). - not UTH or any other Texas Hold'em Against the Casino/Dealer.
Casino Holdem® will be at the G2E in DEQ's Booth-3817.
Casino Holdem®.
Quote: MrCasinoGamesIt's a table game variation of Casino Holdem® (The First Texas Hold'em Against the Casino/Dealer ©2000). - not UTH or any other Texas Hold'em Against the Casino/Dealer.
This from the WIZ :
The above analysis was performed using a brute force combinatorial program that analyzed all 27,813,810,024,000 possible outcomes, and played every hand according to optimal player strategy. It took my computers about a month to crank though the 27.8 trillion hands.
27.8 TRILLION !
Casino Holdem® will be at the G2E in DEQ's Booth-3817.
Casino Holdem®.
Quote: HunterhillI have to agree with Aces,this is basically a twist on UTH . Maybe take Miss stud and only let people bet 2 times but make 2`s thru 10`s a push :)
Anyway I am always happy to see new games. Good Luck Dan
Thanks, guys.
Yes, it is a twist on a base Hold 'em game. Keep in mind that there were ten thousand possible changes that I - or any game designer - could have implemented to a base design of Hold 'em - or any game. I tried to do what I felt would work with the blessing of my boss.
There are plenty of examples of a small change making a big difference:
Three card poker versus British brag - add here a Queen high qualifier and pay just the ANTE. One tiny little change from good old brag made it 1,500 installs world-wide.
EZ Baccarat - a winning Banker three card 7 - just ONE hand, mind you - is now a push. One tiny little change from good old Baccarat. 500 installs.
Freebet blackjack - it's just like blackjack, but with free doubles and splits, and push on a 22. A winner here.
The fire bet - a tiny thing of just counting up the new points made, that's it - and now at hundreds of installs.
And it's not just in gaming.
Plastic surgery - A tiny fraction of an inch on a nose job is the difference between Godzilla, and Jessica Biel or Scarlet Johansen.
Food/cuisine - a tiny bit too much garlic, and yeeuk, a delicacy is now dog food, and Wolfgang Puck is fired.
There are 9,998 things that you can do to a game that'll turn it into a dog, - and about two or three that, if done exactly right, that'll turn it into a winner. Finding it is the hard part, and tailoring it exactly right is even harder.
I hear every day "PFFT! - that's it??!!" (sometimes yes), and, "PFFT! - Anyone can do THAT!" (no, not true, apparently.)
Trust me, no one knows better than me that a small but right change can make all the difference in the world, in the quality of something.
If it's a good change, and the right change.
Talk is real cheap here, - but real performance is real hard. This is what separates the men from the boys.
A good booth at G2E is $105,000.
A lot of sales - priceless.
We'll see.
I'm assigned to produce in game areas that Mr. S and Mr. D tell me to focus on, short of a brainstorm that I might pitch to them.
Had a 5 card community, 3 card flop, turn , and river. Exactly like Hold'em. Well, except each player got 5 cards pre-flop !
Doyle Brunson says Texas Holdem evolved from 10 cowboys in a bunkhouse wanting to play poker and only one deck of cards.
I'd believe that only if one of them cowboys was from Cincinnati !
Quote: IbeatyouracesI would like to see the day when a new card game comes out that has nothing to do with blackjack or poker though.
so would I and many, as it would open things up - but the gambling public consistently rejects anything even slightly "alien."
A good story here, from the Las Vegas Sun, of a game designer who came up with a 5-card single hand Baccarat game of sorts, very nifty, and got nowhere with it in the U.S. This story scared me.
Just kidding. MAYBE
Quote: Paigowdanso would I and many, as it would open things up - but the gambling public consistently rejects anything even slightly "alien."
I think Dan its the casinos that don't give new games anytime to bed in..more than the Punters
Casino's are not in the business of making new games successful......they just want the win to be higher. Much easier to let someone else prove a game before they put it in......and when everyone says that, the new games get harder and harder to get on the floor.
Certainly a SHFL/Galaxy/DEQ can go to an existing client and cut a deal on current popular games in a manner that includes a property running a trial for their latest new offering.....the property can then say, "we are getting a break on our UTH lease fees if we put in Ultimate 7 Card Stud for 90 days", so there is benefit there for the property.
But with independents, an extended free trial is all you can really offer.....perhaps even a lifetime free license. That may or may not prove valuable to the property......it isn't worth a thing if the game doesn't work.
Are very own Switch is leading a discussion at the Ravings/BNPMedia Cutting Edge Table Games Conference in November on this topic. I will be interested to hear what he has to say and what properties add to that conversation. Dan Welch, the former table games director at Stations Casinos will also be in on that discussion. You can check out a description of the topic here: Tuesday from 3PM - 3:45PM Go to the Tuesday page and look at the topic beginning at 3PM.
I know that Stations tried several "new game experiences" with their VIP table game players where they would invite them in for an evening to try 6-8 games out, provide drinks & munchies and get their feedback. I thought this was a great idea and have shared it with other properties as something they might consider.......no one has done it besides Stations that I know about.
This concept has its own problems.Quote: Paradigm... I know that Stations tried several "new game experiences" with their VIP table game players where they would invite them in for an evening to try 6-8 games out, provide drinks & munchies and get their feedback. I thought this was a great idea and have shared it with other properties as something they might consider.......no one has done it besides Stations that I know about.
Would a VIP/whale like a new game for the same reason that a ploppie would?
I think not. Or you at least have to read far between the line when you get the VIP feedback.
For this reason, you're back to relying upon a field test.
I think the concept is you invite your good players to an event, they feel special for being asked to give their feedback knowing that what they say may influence what they see on the floor in the future.....they also get access to table games management folks during the event that they likely don't normally receive.....they have no money at risk......they get to try out some new games that many will have never seen and provide feedback.....this is clearly a win for the players that like this sort of thing....and I think you would be surprised at how many players would like this sort of event.
The property gets to try out some games with their good players, they make the inventors/distributors staff/deal the games.....they are out some wait staff hours at the event and any opportunity cost for using some conference room space as well as set up costs for tables, chairs, etc. They don't have to invest in training dealers to deal a new game or having to risk putting a game out on the floor before getting some real feedback from their own players.
They make their good players feel special and involved for an invite only type event and create loyalty as a result....oh and you schedule it on a Tuesday night or whatever your slowest night of the week is and get your best table game players onsite on a day they likely wouldn't otherwise come....ya think they are going to stop by the real tables on their way out?
The inventors/distributors get real feed back from real players (although there is no way to win or lose, so....it isn't the same as playing with real $$). They get a chance to interact and develop relationships with casino personnel that may give their game a trial.
This appears to me to be a win/win/win type event for locals type property......I just don't see why more properties don't try and do these events once a year.
Quote: ParadigmMaybe VIP was the wrong term......I don't know exactly what the criteria of those invited, but my guess is that it was their regular table games players that had a certain level of table game play at the property over the last 12 months or whatever.
I think the concept is you invite your good players to an event, they feel special for being asked to give their feedback knowing that what they say may influence what they see on the floor in the future.....they also get access to table games management folks during the event that they likely don't normally receive.....they have no money at risk......they get to try out some new games that many will have never seen and provide feedback.....this is clearly a win for the players that like this sort of thing....and I think you would be surprised at how many players would like this sort of event.
The property gets to try out some games with their good players, they make the inventors/distributors staff/deal the games.....they are out some wait staff hours at the event and any opportunity cost for using some conference room space as well as set up costs for tables, chairs, etc. They don't have to invest in training dealers to deal a new game or having to risk putting a game out on the floor before getting some real feedback from their own players.
They make their good players feel special and involved for an invite only type event and create loyalty as a result....oh and you schedule it on a Tuesday night or whatever your slowest night of the week is and get your best table game players onsite on a day they likely wouldn't otherwise come....ya think they are going to stop by the real tables on their way out?
The inventors/distributors get real feed back from real players (although there is no way to win or lose, so....it isn't the same as playing with real $$). They get a chance to interact and develop relationships with casino personnel that may give their game a trial.
This appears to me to be a win/win/win type event for locals type property......I just don't see why more properties don't try and do these events once a year.
Hi Paradigm,
The UK Leading casino brand, Grosvenor (with 55 Casinos) do a Bi-annual event every year (see below), the next Showcase will be on the 17th of October 2013 (Next month).
2013 TABLE GAMING SHOWCASE UK
Leading casino brand, Grosvenor Casinos, is holding an exclusive Table Gaming Showcase for selected customers and employees at Grosvenor G-Casino Coventry on Thursday 16th May.
Now in its third year after a successful debut in 2011, the Bi-annual event will exhibit the very latest in table gaming technology the industry has to offer. Grosvenor G-Casino Coventry will showcase a wide variety of state-of-the-art games from big name suppliers such as ShuffleMaster, Mr CasinoGames®, TCS John Huxley, Customised Casino Games Ltd, Galaxy Games and ICS-Europe.
Guests will be invited to experience and trial the latest games as an integral part of Grosvenor Casinos’ testing process for new games. Their feedback from the evening will ultimately decide which games will go onto live trials and onto the gaming floor across the 36-strong Grosvenor Casinos estate.
“Over the last few years the event has spawned the likes of Casino Holdem®, Roulette Link-Bets®, Lucky Draw Baccarat®,
BlackJack Block Bonus®, Freebet Blackjack, Blackjack Switch, 21+3 Top 3, House Money... All of which now sit firmly within G-Casinos table gaming offer.
Quote: ParadigmFrom an operator stand point, WPT Heads Up Poker gives them a legitimate non-SHFL Texas Hold'em game option to put on the floor.....I think that is the most significant development here. You may not pull UTH and put this in as UTH has become a staple/standard, but if you were going to add a second/third UTH table, you might consider this product as I bet the lease rates are going to be cheaper as Galaxy looks to get the game out there.
Here's to wondering how much of whatever they charge goes into the WPT pocket first...
Always easy to spend someone else's money. But if games are licensed and these are a target audience for a one night trial, why not provide the players with real chips, say $100-$500 and pay a real dealer? So that Independent Product Developer could interact with players and get REAL feedback. Players get to keep their winnings.
Would seem to be a minimal outlay compared to the money invested by the inventor and distributor up to this point in time
But I repeat : Always easy to spend someone else's money
Quote: ParadigmSwitch is going to love this next comment: "looks like the Brits are on to something"
Hehe, you're right although I think that it could be handled more effectively post-exhibition.
Quote: Paradigm
Are very own Switch is leading a discussion at the Ravings/BNPMedia Cutting Edge Table Games Conference in November on this topic. I will be interested to hear what he has to say and what properties add to that conversation. Dan Welch, the former table games director at Stations Casinos will also be in on that discussion. You can check out a description of the topic here: Tuesday from 3PM - 3:45PM Go to the Tuesday page and look at the topic beginning at 3PM.
All being well I met with Charlie Stone from The Wynn tonight and he agreed to be included on the panel for this discussion. So it should have some good information for those attending.
Quote: BozDan, if you can state here, what is the return with 100% correct play and what is the expect return based on how you expect the public to play that you would sell it at? Thanks.
The house edge of the main bets (Ante, Odds, and Play bets) is about half a percent, - which is very fair. Strategy is very similar to UTH, and will probably be analyzed by Steve How of discountgaming.net, or by our own Mike Shackleford, once it is rolling along. We will post updates and detailed strategy once we get past the busy period of the current G2E time frame.
I think there will be many competent players, as well as some weaker players, not unlike UTH or BJ or Pai Gow, etc.
Do come see it at G2E!
I agree.Quote: rdw4potusThis game looks promising, but it perpetuates one silly and unnecessary rule that is present in UTH. Why force a check or 3x bet preflop? If a ploppy wants to bet 1x, why not let him? It feels like added freedom and only increases the house edge...
It's kinda like Doubling-For-Less in BlackJack. It's a stupid move, but one the casino loves to see.
Quote: rdw4potusThis game looks promising, but it perpetuates one silly and unnecessary rule that is present in UTH. Why force a check or 3x bet preflop? If a ploppy wants to bet 1x, why not let him? It feels like added freedom and only increases the house edge...
It would be such a misplay that it would be usury just to allow it. If the player wants to bet 1x, he can still do so after the entire community board is shown to him anyway. Betting 1x on the hole cards would pretty much be like hitting a pat 20 in Blackjack, or standing on a hard 5 against a dealer's 10, not doubling for less.
It's not a question of "freedom," in this case it would be a question of simple alertness or being cognitively aware, - like checking someone for signs of a stroke after he puts two pounds of garlic salt onto his ice cream cone....("buddy, - you okay? How many fingers do I have up....do you know where you are....who is the president.....can we get a doctor here?....)"
Quote: PaigowdanIt would be such a misplay that it would be usury just to allow it. If the player wants to bet 1x, he can still do so after the entire community board is shown to him anyway. Betting 1x on the hole cards would pretty much be like hitting a pat 20 in Blackjack, or standing on a hard 5 against a dealer's 10.
It's not a question of "freedom," in this case it would be a question of simple alertness or being cognitively aware, - like checking someone for signs of a stroke after he puts two pounds of garlic salt onto his ice cream cone....("buddy, - you okay? How many fingers do I have up....do you know where you are....who is the president.....can we get a doctor here?....)"
LOL! It's not THAT bad. This is more like doubling 11 for less against a 5. Or, maybe more aptly, betting 1x with a pair of aces in 4 Card Poker. Those moves are both foolish and allowed...
It's really a player safety design, kind of like designing a handgun with a safety, so you don't shoot yourself when trying to clean it.
In the "1x on hole cards" situation, often the dealer would say anyway, "You can bet 1 unit after seeing more cards, you know, sir....you would want to do that."
The game does say at each player position:
3x on Hole cards
2x on flop
1x on River.
The player can check, and still bet his one unit when there is MUCH better information for him to better play the game.
Quote: Paigowdan
The game does say at each player position:
3x on Hole cards
2x on flop
1x on River.
The player can check, and still bet his one unit when there is MUCH better information for him to better play the game.
This is all also true of UTH. The people who need the reminder don't heed it. They bet at the "wrong time," slow down the game, get frustrated by the rules, and leave. While the intention of the rule and reminder may be to help and inform the player, that just isn't what happens in practice.
Still, the game procedures and design has to be as clear, as straightforward, and as fair as possible as far as it depends upon us. Granted, some people will always be "bulls in a china shop," but when we all do our part - from the manufacturers on down to the floor supervision and dealers, things will work well in the long run.
Quote: PaigowdanIt would be such a misplay that it would be usury just to allow it. If the player wants to bet 1x, he can still do so after the entire community board is shown to him anyway. Betting 1x on the hole cards would pretty much be like hitting a pat 20 in Blackjack, or standing on a hard 5 against a dealer's 10, not doubling for less.
It's not a question of "freedom," in this case it would be a question of simple alertness or being cognitively aware, - like checking someone for signs of a stroke after he puts two pounds of garlic salt onto his ice cream cone....("buddy, - you okay? How many fingers do I have up....do you know where you are....who is the president.....can we get a doctor here?....)"
This is, in my UTH experience, what happens a LOT with timid players; they sit on a pair or an Ax until the river because they're scared to put 3x (let alone 4x) up there. And it's probably not news to anybody here, but that's why they lose; they don't maximize their best odds. When I first sat down to it last year, I was checking Aces, too, (before I found this site; in fact, googling for the optimal UTH strategy was how I found it) but I was lucky enough to have a player at first base playing correct strategy and catching a lot of good cards, and I caught on in an hour or two. I actually like that the house infers the best plays by the bet structure the whole way through the game; it's almost a tutorial on optimal play.
Quote: rdw4potusLOL! It's not THAT bad.
It's almost exactly that bad.
Pocket kings are about 82.5% to beat a random hand. That's a 65% overlay. Betting 1x preflop instead of 3x preflop as an error costs you 1.30 units. Conversely, hard 20 against a ten turns a +0.56 winner into a -0.85 loser, or about 1.41 units.
And as Dan correctly pointed out, the player can functionally do exactly that by posting 1x blind on the river.
Quote: CRMousseauQuote: rdw4potusLOL! It's not THAT bad.
It's almost exactly that bad.
Pocket kings are about 82.5% to beat a random hand. That's a 65% overlay. Betting 1x preflop instead of 3x preflop as an error costs you 1.30 units. Conversely, [hitting] hard 20 against a ten turns a +0.56 winner into a -0.85 loser, or about 1.41 units.
And as Dan correctly pointed out, the player can functionally do exactly that by posting 1x blind on the river.
Thank you Charles!!
On a game that has some strategy to it, we want the players to play it well, competitively, and enjoyably. For just a very general description, on hole cards of a strong Queen, King, Ace, or a pair of 3's or better, a max raise would be a very reasonable play, else wait it out through the flop, or river.
For further details - do stop into the Galaxy booth at G2E.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe point isn't to force them to bet 1x but allow it pre-flop if they're just going to check anyway. Either way it makes no difference.
??
No.
They - the players - are only allowed to:
1. bet 3x or to check on their hole cards, pre-flop.
2. bet 2x or to check on the flop, and
3. bet 1x or fold after the river.
The game is approved as such Washington State to these rules, - and these rules are there to prevent usury or unfair advantage against our casino patrons, even by mistake.
This is similar to the State of New Jersey eliminating the "Corner Red/Big 6 & 8" on all crap tables in the state, also because the house edge is so high it is usurious.
And I think this is a good thing, to give the player a fair chance, a "fighting chance" so to speak, and to not allow even an accidental play to take undue advantage of the player.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI understand that just as I do in UTH. What's the difference if someone were to always check a certain hand then bet 1x or let them bet the 1x right away? Nothing. Either way they ONLY bet 1x.
No, there is a BIG difference, and it would work against the innocent or novice player very badly.
Once a player has bet 1x on his hole cards, he may NOT then raise again during the round, denying him any proper play and strategy advantage from that point on.
It would deny him the ability to play the game optimally - or even reasonably well.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, there is a BIG difference, and it would work against the innocent or novice player very badly.
Once a player has bet 1x on his hole cards, he may NOT then raise again during the round, denying him any proper play and strategy advantage from that point on.
It would deny him the ability to play the game optimally - or even reasonably well.
Sure. And we've all seen people bet 3x on MS Stud with utter sh*t, or let-it-ride improperly. Or we could start in on any number of blackjack mistakes that players are freely allowed to make. Why should the game design add complication to "protect" players who choose to be stupidly conservative?
Edit: for clarity, I meant bet 3 times on the MS stud (i.e. not fold). Saying 3x was terrible wording, but I won't change it in-line.
