Riverboat Roulette -- Roulette with Place Bets / Multiple Spin Wagers

Quote: kulin

I must be doing something wrong. My chance of winning is closer to 47.5% when I play a color.

In the long run the casino has a 5% advantage, rounding
it off. Which means you'll get 95% of your money back.
It doesn't seem that way because people keep reinvesting
their winnings till the 5% eats them all up.

Quote: EvenBob

In roulette you have a 95% chance of winning. You
think you have a 95% chance at G2E?

Read the first half of the sentence....unless you haven't read Eliot's book. I have two chances at G2E -- slim and none!

Quote: EvenBob

In the long run the casino has a 5% advantage, rounding
it off. Which means you'll get 95% of your money back.
It doesn't seem that way because people keep reinvesting
their winnings till the 5% eats them all up.

Advantage != chances of winning.

Quote: Paradigm

Here is the summary that I see:

1) Geography of the multi-spin bets is an issue that needs to be addressed. Many dealers and others have expressed concerns about altering the current procedure on sweeping losers.

Although the sweeping procedures may vary from casino to casino, I'm certain that dealers are also taught to pick losing outside wagers and to sweep losing insides wagers. As a result, I do not believe a casino would ever be comfortable simply moving a bet that pays higher odds than even money closer to the player....the very reason, from a security standpoint, why the layout exists in the manner that it currently does. I don't see any other place to put them on the layout except what has already been stated.

Quote: Paradigm

2) Multi Spin wagers may or may not be attractive to Roulette Players, but there would likely be more interest for larger payouts, like in PFR or the Over The Rainbow portion of RR.

Many gambling behaviors exhibited by roulette players is that many of them employ a "hedge betting" type of strategy simply to get a return or not lose as fast so that some things pay while other things lose.....for this reason, we believe that some MAY find the color sections attractive -- but we could be totally wrong on this

Quote: Paradigm

3) 8 to 5 and 7 to 5 payouts are going to be a new concept for Roulette players. Many have seen these odd payouts and the resulting $5 min bet on the colors are sticking points.

While some may view the new color payouts as an odd concept, others may find them more attractive than betting Red / Black. Red/Black pay even money and lose or win right now while Color Section bets pay odds and may not lose or win right now. For some that simply bet colors, they may now like the idea of winning more money for a color than they initially wagered.

Quote: Paradigm

3) Slowing down the game if not accompanied by higher per spin wager averages either on the colors or on the main layout (casino doesn't care where chips are bet) may be a big problem and D-luck will need to have an answer for that.

The idea IS to get a higher per spin bet. Just as Bob already stated, people are not going to like sitting around waiting for a return. He stated, which is what we also believe, is that people will be 2-3 colors guaranteed. As a result, that would result in a minimum of a $15 bet per spin. So, hopefully we are right. We believe that roulette players like return and therefore believe that they may bet 2-3 sections or all 6 to get that return.

Quote: Paradigm

4) The game being confusing is debatable. Some say it is, others say its really just "hit your color before you hit a white section"...that isn't confusing. There are folks on both sides of this point

We can do a much better job in explaining how to play this game. That's clearly apparent!!!!

Quote: Paradigm

5) HE is an issue.....many here feel that casino's have no motivation to put a lower HE bet on the Roulette table particularly when it will be multi-spins before they have a resolution. While player's would love a lower HE, but if casinos wanted to give them that in a Roulette game, it is already available with a single 0 game.

While I agree that a single 0 wheel would offer a lower HE, if a single 0 wheel is used that lower HE is now on EVERY bet rather than on merely a few side bets. As a result, the colored section feature allows the player to choose 2 bets that have a 2.63% HE, 2 bets that have a 4.21%and 3 new 5.26% bets. I may be wrong on this one as well, but I'm not certain that players will suddenly now ONLY start betting the 4 new bets while abandoning their normal mode of play. The idea is to get new play and increased play. However, the jury is still out on this one, as well.

Quote: Paradigm

6) Any side bet to Roulette has to add incremental bets to the table.....simply moving a player's bet from one area of the layout to a different area of the layout is not motivating for a casino unless the bets are being moved to a higher HE bet. How to prove any Roulette side bet will accomplish this hurdle is difficult.

AGA states that the average gambler enters the casino with a bankroll that ranges from $40 to $110. Consequently, players may simply be moving bets from one area of the layout to the other -- this is the plight of any new side bet. Additionally, this same problem is present with a brand new game with the fear of a player jumping from one type of new poker game over to another. Our idea is to let them play a little longer, give them more entertainment value for their dollar, and have the casino take their money a little slower. If the experience is an enjoyable one, our belief is that the player will have more REPEAT visits versus the opposite. Believe it or not, casinos really do want players to stick around longer -- the longer a player stays in the casino the money time the casino has to win their money.

Quote: Paradigm

7) Roulette already has enough betting areas....no side bet without huge payoffs is going to succeed. You only get huge payouts in some multi-spin format type of wager.

Huge payoffs for side bets are very exciting so you may be absolutely right on this one. While roulette DOES have many betting areas, I agree with Bob on this one in the fact that most of them are never utilized. As a result, we believe this is evidence that there needs to be something more attractive for the player.

Thanks, Paradigm....I'll see you in a few weeks!

DL, where's your little friend CabanaBoy, today? He
came riding in on a white horse to defend you last
night, remember? Did you have to pay him or was
he a volunteer? Too bad he couldn't answer even
the simplest question.

Quote: EvenBob

DL, where's your little friend CabanaBoy, today? He
came riding in on a white horse to defend you last
night, remember? Did you have to pay him or was
he a volunteer? Too bad he couldn't answer even
the simplest question.

I just got home from work. Not a paid employee of DL.
Don't know what question I failed to answer for you but ther was one that I addressed to you that you failed to answer
Our month end reports showed that our hold % went up while our spins per hour went down by 2 SPH.
Just wondering if you find that interesting data.

Also, when your were working on your notebook, you did track SPH. Did you track drop and hold too?

I was looking around our casino today . It was pretty busy today for the holiday weekend. As I looked around ther ewas about 95% utilization on our BJ games, MB, PG and Craps. About 60% on the carni games. Guess what RO looked like, DEAD. How much money did we make on a dead game? Couldn't help but think about this thread and think if we offered a game that had a HE the ranged around 2.5 % HE if those games may have had more play and a chance at making more money.

Packman, if you come up with a new game ,what should the range be on the HE for you to think it's a viable game. (not a side bet, but a new game like your 7 card stud game)
All the core games with the exception of RO all have bets that have a HE under 1.5 % so i don't let the HE of 2.5% become a barrier

More food for thought. Our casino talks about return visits. If you look at your clientele, We see our BJ players aroundt 3 times a week. Our Craps and PG clientele 4 to 5 times a weeks. RO players, maybe 1 time a week. Wonder why that is???

I believe there is a direct correlation to the games HE.

So if you can offer a bet that is lower on a high HE game, you may get more return visits which equals more drop.

Quote: doubleluck

7craps, I wasn't aware that this was the proper dealing procedures. The procedures that I'm familiar with are ones where outside losing bets are actually picked while inside losers are the only ones that are swept.

Really? You don't get out much, do you?

I'm no dealer, but marking the winner and sweeping all the losers is the only procedure I've ever seen.

Quote: doubleluck

As a result, when the color bets push or win, the wouldn't be touched, but shouldn't affect any procedures as outlined in the ones I'm familiar with as they would be left in place, while the outside losers are picked. Conversely, when a white section hits, the color bets would be treated as losing inside numbers as swept.

It was because of the procedure we've seen (or used), and have mentioned numerous times, that there was the suggestion to put the color bets on the furthest outside position. I.E. Next to the players.

After all, if they can be picked up after a push, there is really no security risk. At least no different than the risk with regular bets (capping winners, sniping losers, etc.)



For the record, when I play craps, I generally only place the 6 & 8. If I'm running good, I'll also place the 5 & 9. Often, when a 5 or 9 hits, I have to stare at the payout to make sure it's right. Not that I believe there is an error, but because when I'm in a casino, I suddenly have trouble with that very simple mental math.

My point is, I think you're putting too much emphasis on the House Edge, and too much faith that players will understand the unusual payouts.

I delt the game and we were trained to pick the outside. Never sweep because you have a chance of sweeping a loser into a winning section. Maybe that's why I see higher SPH than 26 because our dealers make fewer mistakes and don't have to get the floor or sky involved to recreate bets.

Quote: Paradigm

Face....this is brilliant and I am sure that I am very late to the game in knowing this quick trick for determining payouts on Roulette, but you just made the lightbulb go off in my head with this little nugget! Thanks!

No problem =) Now you can do your own math while playing. I suggest you do, based on what I've seen.

Quote: 7craps

What IS the WOW factor to your improved game?

Is it the 100 to 1 payout that you have yet to show??

doubleluck, I've been too sick to do anything, and I spent probably too much time thinking about this thread. So, here's a long post about my thoughts ;)

I hate gambling, primarily because I hate the games. Other than PaiGowPoker, which tickles me psychologically for a specific reason, they all bore me. Roulette, by far, tops the list of games I hate. BUT, my love of psychology and constant exposure to these games has keyed me in on some things that could maybe help you out.

Spin-offs, which is what I consider your game, have to have certain properties. They have to remain true to the original game so that players know what to expect, while at the same time giving the player the illusion of being better, and the casino the proof of being better.

Take Dan's EZ Paigow. The game plays nearly identical, which doesn't scare off players. It's removes those $&#^$* quarters, which the players appreciate and enjoy. Players now get paid a full 1:1, which is much better than 95%. It removes the processes of figuring commission, which is easier on operations. And the only "negative" is that there is one more hand the players lose on, which happens infrequently enough that some may never encounter it. It's a winner.

How about Spanish 21? Well, it plays just like BJ, so players know what to expect. Sure, there's the Match the Dealer side wager, but forget that for a moment. On just the base game, it appears you get so much more. You can split more often, you can double more often and on a wider variety of hands. You can surrender more. You get random bonus pay outs without wagering one extra red cent. Some of those bonuses are in the thousands of dollars. A 21 is an auto win. Positive after positive after positive (remember the Rule of Seven?) and the only negative is that there are no tens, which only the savvy player understands. And, even those that do understand, are left feeling that the bonuses are worth it. As a result, it's a hit.

Now let's move to the poker variants.

Three Card, Let It Ride and Caribbean Stud all maintain the poker basics, so anyone with a base understanding of rankings (really, everyone) can sit down to play. In Three Card, the pay outs aren't exactly huge, but with only three card hands, they come frequently. On a good pay table like our 1-4-6-30-40, the money lasts a while. 4:1 and 6:1 pay outs happen all the time. Wait, plus an ante bonus? Jeepers, I keep winning a lot, and often! It keeps the asses in the seats. I see a lot of regulars at the game, and the new people play it >1 hour. The negative? Flush and Straight flip flop. Big Deal.

Let It Ride sticks to basic poker format and is perfectly familiar. It give's people the option to pull bets back if they have bunk cards. And most importantly, $5 can win a player $30,000 (if they're stupid) or more likely $40,000 or more, at any given time. Same goes for Caribbean; by only wagering just one extra dollar, you could walk away with a Couple Hundred Thousand Dollars. Both the games are pretty simple, pretty dull, but my god, the pay offs...

Texas Hold Em Bonus, IMO, should be a failure. The positive is that it's Hold Em that everyone knows, and gives the fish a nice protective reef to play in, instead of the open ocean of PvP poker. But its assbackwards bonus (A-A pays more than A-K suited? What math is that?) and complete lack of reward (You got a Royal Flush? ZOMG, here's your 1:1 pay out!) makes me wonder why anyone puts even a dollar on the table. There are NO regulars that play THB here, and for good reason.

So let's take a look at Riverboat. The base game of Roulette is untouched. Those uninterested can still just play regular old Roulette. This is good. A lot of Roulette players are Big 6 Wheel types, they wander in and play Roulette because it's simple. Perhaps, instead of graduating from Red/Black play into Streets and Splits, they'll graduate to Neighborhoods and DorothyGale (Over the Rainbow, get it? I miss DG)

Now the problems (IMO). There has been talk, either by PaiGowDan or directed at him, how hard core PaiGow players may shun EZ-PGP simply because it's different, it's not "traditional". If a grizzled vet like EvenBob, Keyser or mrjjj walks by your wheel and sees not Red and Black, but Cyan, Salmon, Magenta, Aquamarine, I imagine they'd keep on walking. Regardless that it's still "Regular Roulette", image means a lot. I haven't eaten Kraft Mac&Cheese in months because they changed the box. One glance, and I figured it was organic or low fat or some crap, and never looked to see that it was still the cheesiest. I'm sure many can attest to doing the same. Perhaps less-intrusive-while-still-easily-visible wheel design could help.

Also on design, remember some dealers are going to be looking through glassed over, tired eyes. Some may be coming in straight from an extacy party and are still seeing colors that don't necessarily exist. Some guys in charge of protecting your game, *ahem* me, are horrifically color blind. On the Riverboat section of the wheel, excluding the black and white, I see four colors. I know there's more than that, but that's what I see. Maybe another member can confirm, but your colors might be too close in shade for comfort. I know that's nitpicky, but thought I'd bring it up because stuff like that matters.

While on the subject of the wheel, you realize this is going to be a big cost, correct? Our wheels run $9k a pop, plus one in reserve for maintenance, times two tables. That's $36k right there, for one tiny joint, not including lay out. Does your HE account for that?

On the casino side of things, I see one dealer just clued you in on how wagers are swept and/or plucked. However you implement this wager, keep in non-intrusive. As I've said, Roulette errors are huge. If you, in any way, make it more difficult or raise the probability of errors, that's going to be a big strike. Maybe I'm stupid, but I'd put it on the other side of the Even Moneys. For one, the odds aren't such that it's a protection issue, for two, a dealer is not going to have to reach around stacks to clear the board. Every "Rainbow" stack that gets knocked over while collecting the normal Roulette wagers is more time between spins. A stack that gets knocked over during the clear and they mix? I am NOT looking forward to that review, and it's going to be at least 5 minutes if it's clean, maybe 15 if it's a mess and my color blind ass needs to call in reenforcements. Put the Rainbows in the back.

Also, I'm not sure how much of a deal it is, but as I brought up, Roulette odds are currently simple to calculate if you forget them. One formula for all odds, (y/x)-1. Sure, the Rainbow's right on the lay out so the stupid dealer can figure it out, but what of the Floor looking from 2 tables over? What of Surveillance looking through a soot covered dome and a monitor circa 1982?

I know you said you won't use Craps references in general, but you did use them here. Why? Because it makes sense. Remember, if Craps were invented today, all of Roger Snow's horses, and all of Roger Snow's men, couldn't get that game in a casino today. If your game works like Craps, it has similar mechanics. If it has similar mechanics, you may need to simplify.

And finally, what you're missing. Like EB said, like 7craps asked, like 3CP, CSP, LIR have, you need a WOW factor. If you have a 100:1, get it in there. If you can make it bigger, do so.

I'm a nobody, who has no games out, can barely do long division, hates table games, and am just coming off my 22nd (!) concussion. That's my disclaimer. But if this brain-damaged guy can see some issues, I imagine Roger and Co. can find more. Back to what I said variants need, you left the base game is untouched. That's good. You need to work on more draw for the player, and more profit (as well as less drama) for the casino.

Giddy-up! Time's a-wastin'! And good luck!

I can appreciate your points as a fellow casino employee.
Not trying to be disrespectful but i can't believe that let you stand floor behind the game if your color blind. We have 7 different colors of non-value cheques and if your standing 2 tables away or right on top of the game, how can you ensure that the payouts are correct? So I can understand some of your frustration by addIng bets like this.

Quote: Casinoboy

I can appreciate your points as a fellow casino employee.
Not trying to be disrespectful but i can't believe that let you stand floor behind the game if your color blind. We have 7 different colors of non-value cheques and if your standing 2 tables away or right on top of the game, how can you ensure that the payouts are correct? So I can understand some of you frustration by addIng bets like this.

No disrespect felt here. I'm actually Surveillance, which is even worse. Funny, but they never asked during the interview (they just bitch about it now lol). Maybe a discrimination thing?

In any case, we have 7 here, too. But since I've seen this way for 30some years, I make do. In Roulette, I just follow the cheques. It doesn't matter what color they are, just how many there are and who they go to. About the only problem I have is when explaining to the crew who did what and I describe a player as "the guy playing red" and they have to correct "Face, that's brown", or changing "tan" to "fire orange" in one of my reports. I know it, they know it, so I always ask, and they always automatically check, any of my references to color. It doesn't affect my results.

I would have trouble with this wheel, though. Roulette wheels aren't allowed to stop, so while I could differentiate wagers on the layout based on shades, I'd have a hell of time picking that out of a revolving wheel.

Face, no disrespect, but your post makes me laugh thinking about the confusion/corrections being made. You are a good sport about it for sure!

Quote: Face

I would have trouble with this wheel, though. Roulette wheels aren't allowed to stop, so while I could differentiate wagers on the layout based on shades, I'd have a hell of time picking that out of a revolving wheel.

Re-think that.

These secondary colors are mapped to specific numbers on the wheel.
It would be a simple thing for you to have a reference chart for the secondary colors. For example:

Lt Blue. 7 to 5. 32, 17, 5.
Purple. 8 to 5. 30, 11, 7, 20.
Etc.

I say "Etc." rather than continuing, because the next color on the betting layout doesn't match ANY color on the wheel!

Face, since you work in the sky and see a lot of footage, do you believe that a lazy dealer that doesnt vary the speed of the wheel, change balls or hand placment or vary the rate of their spin, has a chance to sections?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

It was because of the procedure we've seen (or used), and have mentioned numerous times, that there was the suggestion to put the color bets on the furthest outside position. I.E. Next to the players.

My point is, I think you're putting too much emphasis on the House Edge, and too much faith that players will understand the unusual payouts.

DJ....I'm not totally married to the idea of placing the bets outside / closest to the player....whatever the casino wants is fine with me.

With respect to your comment about me putting too much emphasis on the HE, I'm not totally married to having only 3 colored neighborhoods on each side of the wheel either. As I've stated numerous times before, there is a variation of this game where there are 8 total colored sections, all comprised of 3 spots each, all of which pay 2:1 with a 5.26% HE. So, again, if the house or players don't like the funny payouts, I can certainly offer that option as well. Thanks!

Don't take all the attention you've gotten here as
an idication that you have the next best thing, all
you need to do is tweak it. It will most likely never
sell no matter what you to to it, way too many
neg's. Be offended or whatever, thats the truth.

Doesn't mean you can't come up something else.
Players and casinos don't like messing with roulette.
Its been pretty much the same for 200 years and
thats the way people like it.

Bob, glad to see you back. How bout answering my questions now.

Also, DL asked you how you bet/play. Answer that one too please.

You call me out cause I've been at work, most casino people work on holidays. Now you've been asked some more direct questions and you hide for a couple of hours.

Quote: Face

No problem =) Now you can do your own math while playing. I suggest you do, based on what I've seen.



doubleluck, I've been too sick to do anything, and I spent probably too much time thinking about this thread. So, here's a long post about my thoughts ;)

I hate gambling, primarily because I hate the games. Other than PaiGowPoker, which tickles me psychologically for a specific reason, they all bore me. Roulette, by far, tops the list of games I hate. BUT, my love of psychology and constant exposure to these games has keyed me in on some things that could maybe help you out.

Spin-offs, which is what I consider your game, have to have certain properties. They have to remain true to the original game so that players know what to expect, while at the same time giving the player the illusion of being better, and the casino the proof of being better.

Take Dan's EZ Paigow. The game plays nearly identical, which doesn't scare off players. It's removes those $&#^$* quarters, which the players appreciate and enjoy. Players now get paid a full 1:1, which is much better than 95%. It removes the processes of figuring commission, which is easier on operations. And the only "negative" is that there is one more hand the players lose on, which happens infrequently enough that some may never encounter it. It's a winner.

How about Spanish 21? Well, it plays just like BJ, so players know what to expect. Sure, there's the Match the Dealer side wager, but forget that for a moment. On just the base game, it appears you get so much more. You can split more often, you can double more often and on a wider variety of hands. You can surrender more. You get random bonus pay outs without wagering one extra red cent. Some of those bonuses are in the thousands of dollars. A 21 is an auto win. Positive after positive after positive (remember the Rule of Seven?) and the only negative is that there are no tens, which only the savvy player understands. And, even those that do understand, are left feeling that the bonuses are worth it. As a result, it's a hit.

Now let's move to the poker variants.

Three Card, Let It Ride and Caribbean Stud all maintain the poker basics, so anyone with a base understanding of rankings (really, everyone) can sit down to play. In Three Card, the pay outs aren't exactly huge, but with only three card hands, they come frequently. On a good pay table like our 1-4-6-30-40, the money lasts a while. 4:1 and 6:1 pay outs happen all the time. Wait, plus an ante bonus? Jeepers, I keep winning a lot, and often! It keeps the asses in the seats. I see a lot of regulars at the game, and the new people play it >1 hour. The negative? Flush and Straight flip flop. Big Deal.

Let It Ride sticks to basic poker format and is perfectly familiar. It give's people the option to pull bets back if they have bunk cards. And most importantly, $5 can win a player $30,000 (if they're stupid) or more likely $40,000 or more, at any given time. Same goes for Caribbean; by only wagering just one extra dollar, you could walk away with a Couple Hundred Thousand Dollars. Both the games are pretty simple, pretty dull, but my god, the pay offs...

Texas Hold Em Bonus, IMO, should be a failure. The positive is that it's Hold Em that everyone knows, and gives the fish a nice protective reef to play in, instead of the open ocean of PvP poker. But its assbackwards bonus (A-A pays more than A-K suited? What math is that?) and complete lack of reward (You got a Royal Flush? ZOMG, here's your 1:1 pay out!) makes me wonder why anyone puts even a dollar on the table. There are NO regulars that play THB here, and for good reason.

So let's take a look at Riverboat. The base game of Roulette is untouched. Those uninterested can still just play regular old Roulette. This is good. A lot of Roulette players are Big 6 Wheel types, they wander in and play Roulette because it's simple. Perhaps, instead of graduating from Red/Black play into Streets and Splits, they'll graduate to Neighborhoods and DorothyGale (Over the Rainbow, get it? I miss DG)

Now the problems (IMO). There has been talk, either by PaiGowDan or directed at him, how hard core PaiGow players may shun EZ-PGP simply because it's different, it's not "traditional". If a grizzled vet like EvenBob, Keyser or mrjjj walks by your wheel and sees not Red and Black, but Cyan, Salmon, Magenta, Aquamarine, I imagine they'd keep on walking. Regardless that it's still "Regular Roulette", image means a lot. I haven't eaten Kraft Mac&Cheese in months because they changed the box. One glance, and I figured it was organic or low fat or some crap, and never looked to see that it was still the cheesiest. I'm sure many can attest to doing the same. Perhaps less-intrusive-while-still-easily-visible wheel design could help.

Also on design, remember some dealers are going to be looking through glassed over, tired eyes. Some may be coming in straight from an extacy party and are still seeing colors that don't necessarily exist. Some guys in charge of protecting your game, *ahem* me, are horrifically color blind. On the Riverboat section of the wheel, excluding the black and white, I see four colors. I know there's more than that, but that's what I see. Maybe another member can confirm, but your colors might be too close in shade for comfort. I know that's nitpicky, but thought I'd bring it up because stuff like that matters.

While on the subject of the wheel, you realize this is going to be a big cost, correct? Our wheels run $9k a pop, plus one in reserve for maintenance, times two tables. That's $36k right there, for one tiny joint, not including lay out. Does your HE account for that?

On the casino side of things, I see one dealer just clued you in on how wagers are swept and/or plucked. However you implement this wager, keep in non-intrusive. As I've said, Roulette errors are huge. If you, in any way, make it more difficult or raise the probability of errors, that's going to be a big strike. Maybe I'm stupid, but I'd put it on the other side of the Even Moneys. For one, the odds aren't such that it's a protection issue, for two, a dealer is not going to have to reach around stacks to clear the board. Every "Rainbow" stack that gets knocked over while collecting the normal Roulette wagers is more time between spins. A stack that gets knocked over during the clear and they mix? I am NOT looking forward to that review, and it's going to be at least 5 minutes if it's clean, maybe 15 if it's a mess and my color blind ass needs to call in reenforcements. Put the Rainbows in the back.

Also, I'm not sure how much of a deal it is, but as I brought up, Roulette odds are currently simple to calculate if you forget them. One formula for all odds, (y/x)-1. Sure, the Rainbow's right on the lay out so the stupid dealer can figure it out, but what of the Floor looking from 2 tables over? What of Surveillance looking through a soot covered dome and a monitor circa 1982?

I know you said you won't use Craps references in general, but you did use them here. Why? Because it makes sense. Remember, if Craps were invented today, all of Roger Snow's horses, and all of Roger Snow's men, couldn't get that game in a casino today. If your game works like Craps, it has similar mechanics. If it has similar mechanics, you may need to simplify.

And finally, what you're missing. Like EB said, like 7craps asked, like 3CP, CSP, LIR have, you need a WOW factor. If you have a 100:1, get it in there. If you can make it bigger, do so.

I'm a nobody, who has no games out, can barely do long division, hates table games, and am just coming off my 22nd (!) concussion. That's my disclaimer. But if this brain-damaged guy can see some issues, I imagine Roger and Co. can find more. Back to what I said variants need, you left the base game is untouched. That's good. You need to work on more draw for the player, and more profit (as well as less drama) for the casino.

Giddy-up! Time's a-wastin'! And good luck!

Thanks for all the feedback and analysis! In reference to your comment about the cost of the wheel, we're not selling a new wheel, the changes can be made to existing wheels for the price of a refurbishment down to as low as $800.00.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

It would be a simple thing for you to have a reference chart for the secondary colors.

Lol, my nitpicking gained the most attention.

The colors are probably the least of his worries, it's just an issue I saw based on my experience. No one cared on regular Roulette to not have both yellow and fire orange cheques (those inconsiderate $&^%# lol) so I'm sure this issue alone won't break him. It was just a thought.

Quote: Casinoboy

Face, since you work in the sky and see a lot of footage, do you believe that a lazy dealer that doesnt vary the speed of the wheel, change balls or hand placment or vary the rate of their spin, has a chance to sections?

A chance? Sure. In my 500,000 minutes on the clock, have I ever spent one of them concerning myself with section shooters? Nope. Why do you ask?

EvenBob already has over 20% of the posts on the thread thread of 300+ posts. We all know he hates the game, it will never work, we all get it!

Talk about monopolizing a conversation and not knowing when to just let it be......wait.....isn't there a test for that on another thread?

Quote: EvenBob

Don't take all the attention you've gotten here as
an idication that you have the next best thing, all
you need to do is tweak it. It will most likely never
sell no matter what you to to it, way too many
neg's. Be offended or whatever, thats the truth.

Doesn't mean you can't come up something else.
Players and casinos don't like messing with roulette.
Its been pretty much the same for 200 years and
thats the way people like it.

It hasn't been the same for 200 yrs....the game you see today was an evolution of a game called E/O. But do agree that most don't like tinkering with roulette.....however, I also believe that every other game variant is over-saturated and then some. How many poker variants and bj side bets need to exist?

Quote: EvenBob

As I said yesterday, when its busy the average player
who's winning and losing stays at the table about 40min
or about 12 spins. But thats an average and there are
many players who aren't winning that leave after 4-5-6
spins.

So far today I've read the word confusing 3 times in posts,
and if the Wiz, who's looked at hundereds of these games,
is confused right out of the gate, the average ding dong
player will never understand it if you had an hour to explain
it to him.

I think the wording he originally used was confusing, but I understood the game rather quickly, and I think it's easy to explain.

"If White comes out, your bet loses. If your color comes, it wins. Everything else is a push. The White bet is for one roll, and only wins if white comes out on the next spin."

I like the idea, but that doesn't mean I think it would be successful, as I'm not a roulette player. I'm worried that the House Edge is too high, because if I understand right, it is applied every spin, resulting in a very high house edge per bet resolved. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Per bet resolved....
The Edge for the 2 to 1 payout is -0.181818182
8 to 5 is -0.133333333
7 to 5 is -0.076923077

Am I right?


I still think the biggest problem is the fact that people who like those 8 numbers which are white may not like the bet, because they don't have any multi-spin options. The only remedy I can think of is to make the multi-spin play against (something like) Orange and Blue, paying 6 to 5. The idea being that you should have more numbers in the losing category, right? You could potentially play the whites against 0/00, but the payout would be like 1 to 5.

Quote: Face

Lol, my nitpicking gained the most attention.

The colors are probably the least of his worries, it's just an issue I saw based on my experience. No one cared on regular Roulette to not have both yellow and fire orange cheques (those inconsiderate $&^%# lol) so I'm sure this issue alone won't break him. It was just a thought.





A chance? Sure. In my 500,000 minutes on the clock, have I ever spent one of them concerning myself with section shooters? Nope. Why do you ask?

First of all, I have a few weak dealers and some green floors. One day I was talking with one of our more experienced players and he viewed the reader board and took off to the the wheel. He won on the next 3 spins. I got there just after he took us for $1200 and saw that the last 6 numbers were in the same section.

Some people think that's coincidence, I don't. Just wonder how someone that views the wheel for as long as you do feels about that.

I kind of believe that this could help you & your coworkers find the weak dealers, Advantage players and collusion. if a dealers is hitting the same colors, you could call the floor and have him make sure the dealer is "mixing" it up. That could have saved me $1200 in the case above.

Quote: Boney526

I think the wording he originally used was confusing, but I understood the game rather quickly, and I think it's easy to explain.

"If White comes out, your bet loses. If your color comes, it wins. Everything else is a push. The White bet is for one roll, and only wins if white comes out on the next spin."

I like the idea, but that doesn't mean I think it would be successful, as I'm not a roulette player. I'm worried that the House Edge is too high, because if I understand right, it is applied every spin, resulting in a very high house edge per bet resolved. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Per bet resolved....
The Edge for the 2 to 1 payout is -0.181818182
8 to 5 is -0.133333333
7 to 5 is -0.076923077

Am I right?


I still think the biggest problem is the fact that people who like those 8 numbers which are white may not like the bet, because they don't have any multi-spin options. The only remedy I can think of is to make the multi-spin play against (something like) Orange and Blue, paying 6 to 5. The idea being that you should have more numbers in the losing category, right? You could potentially play the whites against 0/00, but the payout would be like 1 to 5.

The edge on the 2:1 sections are 5.26%
The edge on the 8:5 sections are 4.21%
The edge on the 7:5 sections are 2.63%
The edge on the 7:2 section is 5.26% (White)

Is this what you're looking for?

Quote: doubleluck

The edge on the 2:1 sections are 5.26%
The edge on the 8:5 sections are 4.21%
The edge on the 7:5 sections are 2.63%
The edge on the 7:2 section is 5.26% (White)

Is this what you're looking for?

I don't think that's what he's asking.
Your providing him the HE per spin not per "resolved" bets

Quote: Casinoboy

First of all, I have a few weak dealers and some green floors. One day I was talking with one of our more experienced players and he viewed the reader board and took off to the the wheel. He won on the next 3 spins. I got there just after he took us for $1200 and saw that the last 6 numbers were in the same section.

Some people think that's coincidence, I don't. Just wonder how someone that views the wheel for as long as you do feels about that.

I kind of believe that this could help you & your coworkers find the weak dealers, Advantage players and collusion. if a dealers is hitting the same colors, you could call the floor and have him make sure the dealer is "mixing" it up. That could have save me $1200 in the case above.

I know some people buy into that notion, while others don't. That's why we talk about it as a selling point. TCS John Huxley gets away with selling a "more random" wheel every you turn around so we thought there must be something to that. However, they do nothing to help identify weak dealers or AP players.

Quote: doubleluck

It hasn't been the same for 200 yrs....

Its been the same basic game for 200 years, with minor
changes here and there. The intent of the game hasn't
changed. Some designs had no zeros, some had 3 zeros.
The dolly is an American invention to thwart past posters.
Originally you could bet any kind of money on the
layout; coins, paper money, gold, silver, from any country.
The payouts took so long they were lucky to get half a
dozen spins an hour.

Quote: Paradigm

Talk about monopolizing a conversation and not knowing when to just let it be.

Maybe you should PM me and let me know when you've
been offended by my posts. Or even better, try and worry
about yourself and I'll worry about me. Deal?

Bob, quite avoiding me!
As long as you control the tread you can manipulate people into thinking your an "expert" The minute you get asked questions you skirt them because you could say something that isn't accurate or outside you knowledge base.

Quote: EvenBob

Maybe you should PM me and let me know when you've
been offended by my posts. Or even better, try and worry
about yourself and I'll worry about me. Deal?

Prime example!!!!
Bobs taking his ball and going back into hiding.

Quote: Casinoboy

I don't think that's what he's asking.
Your providing him the HE per spin not per "resolved" bets

That is what I am looking for. I figured my result like this....

(For the 2 to 1 bets)

(Probability of win * amount won) / Possible results.
((3*2)+(8*-1))/ 38 OR 11.

Using 38, I get the same edge you calculated, .5.26%, but using 11, which doesn't include pushes, I get 18.18%. If my logic is correct, ignoring pushes would result in the edge per bet resolved.

I think that most people would leave the bet up, so the edge would be very high. Of course, the edge is at least never higher than Roulette's edge per spin, but I think if the edge is applied every spin, it should be lowered compared to what it is now.

Quote: Casinoboy

Bob, quite avoiding me!

I'm not avoiding you. Be here another year and
I might notice you. You came here yesterday
and are making demands already? Get real.

Quote: EvenBob

Its been the same basic game for 200 years, with minor
changes here and there. The intent of the game hasn't
changed. Some designs had no zeros, some had 3 zeros.
The dolly is an American invention to thwart past posters.
Originally you could bet any kind of money on the
layout; coins, paper money, gold, silver, from any country.
The payouts took so long they were lucky to get half a
dozen spins an hour.

Here's what I originally said...It looks like you cut off what my quote was.

Quote: doubleluck

It hasn't been the same for 200 yrs....the game you see today was an evolution of a game called E/O.

Quote: Boney526

That is what I am looking for. I figured my result like this....

(For the 2 to 1 bets)

(Probability of win * amount won) / Possible results.
((3*2)+(8*-1))/ 38 OR 11.

Using 38, I get the same edge you calculated, .5.26%, but using 11, which doesn't include pushes, I get 18.18%. If my logic is correct, ignoring pushes would result in the edge per bet resolved.

I think that most people would leave the bet up, so the edge would be very high. Of course, the edge is at least never higher than Roulette's edge per spin, but I think if the edge is applied every spin, it should be lower than it currently is.

Boney, I'll have to get back to you on that....I'm not certain of it and want to provide accurate info on it.

Quote: doubleluck

Riverboat Roulette: You can play regular roulette, but if you bet the new colored sections and win, you get paid odds; if your color doesn't come up, your bet pushes; if it lands in the white section you lose.

Ah, simple enough.

So, let's look at the Yellow bet, which pays 2 to 1. There are 3 yellows and 8 whites. If we treat this like a place bet then the house edge would be:

(8/11)*1 + (3/11)*-2 = 2/11 = 18.18%.

If we treat all other rolls as a push then the house edge would be:

(8/38)*1 + (3/38)*-2 + (27/38)*0 = 2/38 = 5.26%.

This begs the question of how pushes should be treated for purposes of the house edge. Normally I count them, for example in blackjack, baccarat, and video poker. However, if there are a lot of pushes (like on the magnitude of place bets in craps), and players generally keep the bet up until it resolves, then I would go by the "per bet resolved" method. This is also the way most gambling writers do it.

That said, if I were to write up this game, I would say the house edge on the Yellow bet is 18.18%. However, I would at least footnote it to show how I'm calculating it.

Sorry if this has all been said before. I don't feel like reading every post in the thread.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm not avoiding you. Be here another year and
I might notice you. You came here yesterday
and are making demands already? Get real.

I am real. Just cause you've been here for some length of time does allow you to talk trawl about me because I have a differing opinion than you. You've demand me to answer question and even enlighten you cause your always willing to learn. I've asked you several questions and you act tough. You're not an expert, your a bully. Everyone knows how to handle bully's. Pop thim in the nose and stand up to them.

Requrdless of my time on this site, You know that my data is more convincing that your notebook.
You don't want a casinonemployee to come in and knock you down in 24 hrs

Quote: Wizard

Ah, simple enough.

So, let's look at the Yellow bet, which pays 2 to 1. There are 3 yellows and 8 whites. If we treat this like a place bet then the house edge would be:

(8/11)*1 + (3/11)*-2 = 2/11 = 18.18%.

If we treat all other rolls as a push then the house edge would be:

(8/38)*1 + (3/38)*-2 + (27/38)*0 = 2/38 = 5.26%.

This begs the question of how pushes should be treated for purposes of the house edge. Normally I count them, for example in blackjack, baccarat, and video poker. However, if there are a lot of pushes (like on the magnitude of place bets in craps), and players generally keep the bet up until it resolves, then I would go by the "per bet resolved" method. This is also the way most gambling writers do it.

That said, if I were to write up this game, I would say the house edge on the Yellow bet is 18.18%. However, I would at least footnote it to show how I'm calculating it.

Sorry if this has all been said before. I don't feel like reading every post in the thread.

Thanks for the help, Wiz.

Quote: Casinoboy

I got there just after he took us for $1200 and saw that the last 6 numbers were in the same section.

Some people think that's coincidence, I don't.

Sad.
Most do not understand the probability of random events over many trials.

I did this study years ago.
It still holds true today unless one is 100% certain that all Roulette spins are not random.

say 110,000 Roulette spins per year one table
20 spins per hour 16 hours a day (116,800)

Streak Lenght: 6 or higher

Section or Column
expected number: 74.64

Sector size 9
expected number: 14.81
Sector size 8
expected number: 7.56
Sector size 7
expected number: 3.51
Sector size 6
expected number: 1.44
Sector size 5
expected number: 0.50


As to the OP's new Roulette variation.
Still do not see much thrill in your new bets.

But if the casino can make more money because of more bets available, yes very high resolved bets house edge,
you better do a great job on selling that point.

Enjoy and Good Luck to you

Quote: guido111

Sad.
Most do not understand the probability of random events over many trials.

I did this study years ago.
It still holds true today unless one is 100% certain that all Roulette spins are not random.

say 110,000 Roulette spins per year one table
20 spins per hour 16 hours a day (116,800)

Streak Lenght: 6 or higher

Section or Column
expected number: 74.64

Sector size 9
expected number: 14.81
Sector size 8
expected number: 7.56
Sector size 7
expected number: 3.51
Sector size 6
expected number: 1.44
Sector size 5
expected number: 0.50


As to the OP's new Roulette variation.
Still do not see much thrill in your new bets.

But if the casino can make more money because of more bets available, yes very high resolved bets house edge,
you better do a great job on selling that point.

Enjoy and Good Luck to you

Thanks for the advice....

" But if the casino can make more money because of more bets available, yes very high resolved bets house edge,
you better do a great job on selling that point."

I still think you need to sell to a distributor. But you have rented a space at G2E, while I am still scuffling for a free ticket. LOL

Quote: Casinoboy

First of all, I have a few weak dealers and some green floors. One day I was talking with one of our more experienced players and he viewed the reader board and took off to the the wheel. He won on the next 3 spins. I got there just after he took us for $1200 and saw that the last 6 numbers were in the same section.

Some people think that's coincidence, I don't. Just wonder how someone that views the wheel for as long as you do feels about that.

I kind of believe that this could help you & your coworkers find the weak dealers, Advantage players and collusion. if a dealers is hitting the same colors, you could call the floor and have him make sure the dealer is "mixing" it up. That could have saved me $1200 in the case above.

3 spins? I'd smile my biggest smile, congratulate him on his pattern-detecting prowess, and wish him a hasty return. For every guy that "sees the pattern" and hits for a tidy sum, there's 100 more seeing a pattern and losing. By all means, do push and enforce your policies and procedures. But don't lose any sleep chasing ghosts.

Quote: Face

3 spins? I'd smile my biggest smile, congratulate him on his pattern-detecting prowess, and wish him a hasty return. For every guy that "sees the pattern" and hits for a tidy sum, there's 100 more seeing a pattern and losing. By all means, do push and enforce your policies and procedures. But don't lose any sleep chasing ghosts.

Face, do you believe that players may buy-in to the notion of chasing "new" patterns with the colored neighborhoods?

Hell, after 3 whites in a row, they will feel safe. It can't come in so soon again, can it ? LOL

Quote: Casinoboy

He won on the next 3 spins. I got there just after he took us for $1200 and saw that the last 6 numbers were in the same section.

'Took' you? It was pure dumb luck. You can't stop
people from section betting, its part of the game.
Dealers throw the ball in the same section just as
often as they don't. I suggest doing a little more
homework before you toss people just for winning.
People do win sometimes, you know, like it or
not..

Quote: Wizard

Ah, simple enough.

So, let's look at the Yellow bet, which pays 2 to 1. There are 3 yellows and 8 whites. If we treat this like a place bet then the house edge would be:

(8/11)*1 + (3/11)*-2 = 2/11 = 18.18%.

If we treat all other rolls as a push then the house edge would be:

(8/38)*1 + (3/38)*-2 + (27/38)*0 = 2/38 = 5.26%.

This begs the question of how pushes should be treated for purposes of the house edge. Normally I count them, for example in blackjack, baccarat, and video poker.

I say to show both ways.
IMO, Most like the "per trial" value of -2/38
Easy math, 100 spins*2/38 = $5.26 EV

Per bet resolved needs a bit more math to see the EV.
=(100/(38/11))*(-2/11) = $5.26 EV
Looks wrong but it is not.


But this bet has a whopping 2/11 = 18.18% house edge!
There is the catch!

This will spread like wild fire between Roulette players and these color bets will just be known as another bad sucker bet.
These bets should fail quickly. Now I know why.

Just compare this "yellow2 to 1" to a 2 to 1 normal bet for 100 resolved bets
$5 Yellow
345 average spins (one can certainty play longer)
EV: -$90.91
SD: $66.80
Probability of a net win after 100 resolved wagers = 8.31%
(Probability of a net win after 200 resolved wagers = 3.07%)

$5 2to1 Regular
100 spins
EV: -$26.32
SD: $69.72
Probability of a net win after 100 resolved wagers = 33.58%
(Probability of a net win after 200 resolved wagers = 30.32%)

Players will figure this out even without the math.
Too hard to win the longer one plays.
Of course this is true for roulette bets anyways but
18% vs 5.26% (per bet resolved)
ouch!!

You really need some good luck selling this one!

Quote: doubleluck

My brother and I are one of the "independents" that will be debuting our roulette variation, "Riverboat Roulette", at G2E this year.

Looks like you scored a decent spot on the exhibit floor - right up front.

(Double Luck is in spot 2712 - right above the "C" in the middle "ENTRANCE" along the bottom. Click on the large green section to see the map.)

Hmm, at 18.11% per bet resolved, I'm out. That's far too high for a side bet paying 2-1. If i want 2-1, I can bet a column, or go to the craps table and bet the 4.

I thought the 4.x% was per bet, not per spin. I shoulda done my own maths.

Quote: thecesspit

Hmm, at 18.11% per bet resolved, I'm out. That's far too high for a side bet paying 2-1. If i want 2-1, I can bet a column, or go to the craps table and bet the 4.

I thought the 4.x% was per bet, not per spin. I shoulda done my own maths.

I agree. I don't think roulette needs any more bets that pay roughly the same odds as existing wagers, especially if the edge is 3x as high. An edge >15% should be reserved for jackpot-style wagers, something that pays meaningfully more than the regular game. People don't play the Fire Bet because the low-end payout is 25x, they play to hit the 1000x jackpot. In roulette, I can accomplish a jackpot by using an inside-number parlay, bet 1 to win 35, parlay all 36 for 1296 and down. That has an aggregate edge of 10.25% (5.26% all the time, and another 189% of the original bet 1/38 of the time). If the player can manufacture almost a 1300x win with a 10% edge, I don't see them paying 18% for a 2x payout.

The performance concerns have been previously noted and I don't need to rehash them here, but they should be addressed. What I'd do, if I were redesigning this, is remove most (if not all) of the existing bets and replace them with one or maybe two jackpot-style bets. That gets rid of the performance concern and adds a truly different payout option to the game.