Riverboat Roulette -- Roulette with Place Bets / Multiple Spin Wagers

Quote: Casinoboy

So by adding betting options that have a house edge above 2.0 and it is a multi spin, will allow the tables to be more crowded and invite players to the table like yourself.

LOL, sure it will. I'm starting to smell a
shill here.

Quote: EvenBob

LOL, sure it will. I'm starting to smell a
shill here.

Damn! I finally get one positive response and he now has to be discredited in some way?!?!! LOL

I'm coming from a place of experience and Bob want to disrespect me and make fun of my user name. Just what I would expect from a simple minded roulette player.
He wants us to respect his experience, but isn't willing to "think outside the box"
It looks like I'm one of 2 people that doesn't get fought up on the HE but i have at least analyzed the payout and trade offs that it offers, all without
Making fun of people's user name or disrespecting them.

It's ok to have differing opinions. None of us are in a position to make a decision on the game.
Take that for what its worth.

Quote: doubleluck

I believe that I should consider both Bob's and CB's thoughts equally since one is a player and the other from "the darkside". ;)

Casinoboy's input has swayed me. I think this is
a crackerjack idea now and you should go pedal
to the metal now. He convinced me with his keen
insights and encyclopedic knowledge. And he
showed up at just the right time, what a coinkydink..

Quote: EvenBob

Casinoboy's input has swayed me. I think this is
a crackerjack idea now and you should go pedal
to the metal now. He convinced me with his keen
insights and encyclopedic knowledge. And he
showed up at just the right time, what a coinkydink..

Again, condescending and disrespectful.

Your opinion is that much more valuable do to your experience.

Quote: EvenBob

Casinoboy's input has swayed me. I think this is
a crackerjack idea now and you should go pedal
to the metal now. He convinced me with his keen
insights and encyclopedic knowledge. And he
showed up at just the right time, what a coinkydink..

You said nothing when 7Craps made some of the same points much earlier. Additionally, Bob, again last night, you already stated that players would bet 2-3 of the colored neighborhoods in order to get a return....which is precisely the what I'm trying to do.

Bob, just wondering if you get the monthly data about drop,hold & win % along with the hands per hour/spins per hour.
I just checked our last 2 reports, this month we dropped more, held a higher % and was down 2 spins per hour.

Do you Find that interesting?

Quick Doubleluck. Sell shares in your game to Casinoboy. It's your only real chance to make some money off this game.

Quote: buzzpaff

Quick Doubleluck. Sell shares in your game to Casinoboy. It's your only real chance to make some money off this game.

Buzz, I'm not trying to be funny...but really do want to know what game you've gotten on to the casino floor.

Quote: doubleluck

Face....that's exactly why I came here. I knew what I was in store for! However, I believe that I should consider both Bob's and CB's thoughts equally since one is a player and the other from "the darkside". ;)

Oh, sure. I wasn't putting one over the other, I was just pointing out that (I feel) your detractors are much more valuable than those who think your idea is perfect. I remember hearing one time about the Rule of Seven, that being for every negative, you need seven positives to make up for it. Now surely, that's a non-scientific observation on human behavior, but there's a slice of truth in there. One negative, just one, could leave your idea dead in the water, no matter how nifty your idea is.

I had one project I took on that was similar to this designing biz. There was a procedure here I thought was very harmful, and I had to both prove it as well as come up with a solution. One man, just me, where failure meant, besides the loss of a month of work, a loss of all my credibility in my job. During the process, I got tons of "well done", "that's amazing", "dude, how do you do it", and while that's nice for the ego, it did nothing for the project. More than anything, I wanted someone to challenge it, to try to point out how stupid I was, to find what big mistake I was making, what I was overlooking. It got to the point where I'd actually tell people "I don't want to hear how good it is. Tell me where I mucked up. Show me my stupidity". That is where the problems get revealed and addressed.

I'd seriously analyze every single critique here. Decide which ones you can address and which ones just have to remain as is. Forget that EB called you out with only The Notebook to back him up, forget that DJ and buzz have both so far failed, forget that some here may be your competition. Take the critique and get to work. Leave the bickering to those who don't have a baby hanging in the balance. However much time you have, it's not enough. Don't waste it.

Quote: Face

Oh, sure. I wasn't putting one over the other, I was just pointing out that (I feel) your detractors are much more valuable than those who think your idea is perfect. I remember hearing one time about the Rule of Seven, that being for every negative, you need seven positives to make up for it. Now surely, that's a non-scientific observation on human behavior, but there's a slice of truth in there. One negative, just one, could leave your idea dead in the water, no matter how nifty your idea is.

I had one project I took on that was similar to this designing biz. There was a procedure here I thought was very harmful, and I had to both prove it as well as come up with a solution. One man, just me, where failure meant, besides the loss of a month of work, a loss of all my credibility in my job. During the process, I got tons of "well done", "that's amazing", "dude, how do you do it", and while that's nice for the ego, it did nothing for the project. More than anything, I wanted someone to challenge it, to try to point out how stupid I was, to find what big mistake I was making, what I was overlooking. It got to the point where I'd actually tell people "I don't want to hear how good it is. Tell me where I mucked up. Show me my stupidity". That is where the problems get revealed and addressed.

I'd seriously analyze every single critique here. Decide which ones you can address and which ones just have to remain as is. Forget that EB called you out with only The Notebook to back him up, forget that DJ and buzz have both so far failed, forget that some here may be your competition. Take the critique and get to work. Leave the bickering to those who don't have a baby hanging in the balance. However much time you have, it's not enough. Don't waste it.

Thanks! I appreciate your advice!

Quote: doubleluck

Buzz, I'm not trying to be funny...but really do want to know what game you've gotten on to the casino floor.

None. How much money have you invested on this dog ? One need not be a movie producer to know a movie stinks.

Nor a chef to know when food tastes bad.

You do not want feedback. You want your ass kissed.

Those who have gotten games on the floor have not posted. You might ask yourself why ?

I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. Which is far too frequent.

You keep referring to Focus Group 1. Read my feed back of my game.

Or talk to Moneysuit31's inventor. I thought his game was weak prior to seeing it played.

I apologized to him after I saw it live. Not via a email or phone call.

My dad did not raise any sissies. I told him face-to-face.

Quote: buzzpaff

None. How much money have you invested on this dog ? One need not be a movie producer to know a movie stinks.

Nor a chef to know when food tastes bad.

You do not want feedback. You want your ass kissed.

Those who have gotten games on the floor have not posted. You might ask yourself why ?

I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. Which is far too frequent.

You keep referring to Focus Group 1. Read my feed back of my game.

Or talk to Moneysuit31's inventor. I thought his game was weak prior to seeing it played.

I apologized to him after I saw it live. Not via a email or phone call.

My dad did not raise any sissies. I told him face-to-face.

I don't want my ass kissed, but I'm not one to sit by for snide comments either. I only referred to the Focus Group because I read where you showed up with not even having a layout. I would like to believe that I wouldn't have let that happen....but like you say, no one knows what they would do when the pressure is on. However, I believe it would've been better NOT to go than to show up without a layout and lose credibility. Yet you're worrying so much about mine. Why didn't you heed your own advice on that one? I only brought those things up AFTER you told me what I should do with my game, none of which had anything to do with any recommended improvements or anything. I do respect the fact that you're man enough to say when you're wrong face-to-face but if you don't like something you don't have to go to the disrespectful route -- I'm sure your dad taught you that too.

Ok lets look at how you take negative feedback !

Thanks for letting me know that traditional roulette is so "perfect" while simultaneously describing it as "confusing". How did you EVER master it? lol



Maybe so, but we wouldn't have been complaining about how the results were fixed when Roger won! lol

Keno for Roulette?!?!? Roulette IS Keno!!! lol

FINALLY, thanks for proving all our points! Especially with regards to betting more than one color and tripling the average bet!!!! If the 8 white numbers are "sleeping" as long as you say, then those colored neighborhoods will be paying off! Thanks for your guarantee!!!!

What does you going solo have anything to do with it? Dying alone or dying with company still results in the same outcome -- at least on most paytables -- oh wait, you may not know what one of those are! lol

SOOPOOO, the things you've said are actually constructive. However,

By the way, how many games do you have that have made it to the casino floor?

Hmmmmm.....sounds like INCREASED average bet to me. I wonder if casinos were initially fearful when the penny slot was introduced that people would now suddenly start betting .01.

Apples and oranges....blah, blah, blah...both are still fruit. While roulette player are not craps players....blah, blah, blah....both are still GAMBLERS.

Do you play single 0 roulette or 00? Does a single 0 wheel belong on the floor since it reduces the house edge on every single bet to 2.67% rather than just on two of the bets we've created?

What?!?! That's the definitive answer on spins per hour? Bob's notebook?

Nonetheless, I like knowing how a "true roulette player" thinks.

Additionally, I'm skeptical that you truly concerned yourself with the number of spins per hour when you were taking all this time making bets (which you also claim) and ensuring that you were paid correctly -- but hey, I could be wrong -- but could you?

I'm just saying that this "average" would include YOU! So you're studies would only be for roughly 40 minutes per day for a year OR after lasting only 40 mins, you then hung around the casino to merely study and collect data on the game.

I KNOW you're not gonna "go there" now....after so doggedly claiming earlier that no one number has any more chances of hitting than any other!

does a single zero roulette game belong on the gaming floor or not?

So is that a Yes, No, or Maybe? Which wheel would you play -- single or double zero?


I will let you read how you react to positive comments. Respectfully at almost all times.


PS SMI dropped the ball. I sent my info, they provided the layouts, but mine was the only one missing. But my game still stunk. Only difference is I found out before I blew my money on it.

" none of which had anything to do with any recommended improvements or anything."

I did suggest a path to travel that would lead to you knowing what improvements might be needed, but we both know you are not going down that road.

GOOD LUCK, just the same.

Quote: buzzpaff

Ok lets look at how you take negative feedback !

Thanks for letting me know that traditional roulette is so "perfect" while simultaneously describing it as "confusing". How did you EVER master it? lol



Maybe so, but we wouldn't have been complaining about how the results were fixed when Roger won! lol

Keno for Roulette?!?!? Roulette IS Keno!!! lol

FINALLY, thanks for proving all our points! Especially with regards to betting more than one color and tripling the average bet!!!! If the 8 white numbers are "sleeping" as long as you say, then those colored neighborhoods will be paying off! Thanks for your guarantee!!!!

What does you going solo have anything to do with it? Dying alone or dying with company still results in the same outcome -- at least on most paytables -- oh wait, you may not know what one of those are! lol

SOOPOOO, the things you've said are actually constructive. However,

By the way, how many games do you have that have made it to the casino floor?

Hmmmmm.....sounds like INCREASED average bet to me. I wonder if casinos were initially fearful when the penny slot was introduced that people would now suddenly start betting .01.

Apples and oranges....blah, blah, blah...both are still fruit. While roulette player are not craps players....blah, blah, blah....both are still GAMBLERS.

Do you play single 0 roulette or 00? Does a single 0 wheel belong on the floor since it reduces the house edge on every single bet to 2.67% rather than just on two of the bets we've created?

What?!?! That's the definitive answer on spins per hour? Bob's notebook?

Nonetheless, I like knowing how a "true roulette player" thinks.

Additionally, I'm skeptical that you truly concerned yourself with the number of spins per hour when you were taking all this time making bets (which you also claim) and ensuring that you were paid correctly -- but hey, I could be wrong -- but could you?

I'm just saying that this "average" would include YOU! So you're studies would only be for roughly 40 minutes per day for a year OR after lasting only 40 mins, you then hung around the casino to merely study and collect data on the game.

I KNOW you're not gonna "go there" now....after so doggedly claiming earlier that no one number has any more chances of hitting than any other!

does a single zero roulette game belong on the gaming floor or not?

So is that a Yes, No, or Maybe? Which wheel would you play -- single or double zero?


I will let you read how you react to positive comments. Respectfully at almost all times.


PS SMI dropped the ball. I sent my info, they provided the layouts, but mine was the only one missing. But my game still stunk. Only difference is I found out before I blew my money on it.

Read them all in the context for which they were written.....not responding to feedback, but definitely responded to snide shots being made. My dad didn't raise any sissies either!

Positive feedback is Ok Negative feedback = snide shots

Like i said, you want your ass kissed!

I think I will pull an Evenbob and exit. This is rapidly becoming like teaching a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Quote: buzzpaff

Positive feedback is Ok Negative feedback = snide shots

Like i said, you want your ass kissed!

Others have given "negative" feedback but you mention nothing that they said nor my responses to them.

DoubleDuck reminds me of Abe Lincoln's wife
in the Geico commercial. When she ask's Abe if
the dress she's wearing makes her butt look
big. She doesn't want the truth, she wants to
be told how great she looks.

Your game is wonderful, you're a genius, you'll
have 1000 installations in a year. Satisfied?

I'm outa here..

My mathematician and I had the same inclination when we read the initial post: Why don't you offer payouts for filling the entire color section before a white hits?

This should enable the following:

1. Payoffs that range from moderate to astronomical. This would appeal to players who want a big-bang, something well above the current 35 to 1 maximum win.
2. House edge that exceeds 5.26%, even when you divide it by the average number of spins the bet stays in action. This would appeal to casinos; they want extra bets to have a mathematical advantage well above those of the existing bets (Fire Bet, 21+3, Fortune bonus, etc.)

EvenBob asked why a player would hang around for a dozen spins to get a 7 to 5 payoff. Perhaps he would feel differently if the bet paid 100 to 1 or 1,000 to 1.

Just my two cents.

Good luck to you and your game at G2E. I will be sending a few of my guys over to your booth to check it out.

--Roger

Quote: Pacman

EvenBob asked why a player would hang around for a dozen spins to get a 7 to 5 payoff. Perhaps he would feel differently if the bet paid 100 to 1 or 1,000 to 1.

Exactly. That would make it exciting.

Quote: Pacman

My mathematician and I had the same inclination when we read the initial post: Why don't you offer payouts for filling the entire color section before a white hits?

This should enable the following:

1. Payoffs that range from moderate to astronomical. This would appeal to players who want a big-bang, something well above the current 35 to 1 maximum win.
2. House edge that exceeds 5.26%, even when you divide it by the average number of spins the bet stays in action. This would appeal to casinos; they want extra bets to have a mathematical advantage well above those of the existing bets (Fire Bet, 21+3, Fortune bonus, etc.)

EvenBob asked why a player would hang around for a dozen spins to get a 7 to 5 payoff. Perhaps he would feel differently if the bet paid 100 to 1 or 1,000 to 1.

Just my two cents.

Good luck to you and your game at G2E. I will be sending a few of my guys over to your booth to check it out.

--Roger

Thanks for the feedback, Roger. As mentioned in only the original post, we do have an "astronomical" bet that you speak of that was mentioned that is called the "Over-the-Rainbow" bet. This bet is similar to a Fire-Bet where a specified number of colored neighborhoods must be hit before a White Out. This will not be featured at G2E as the "Over-the-Rainbow" bet patent filing was not filed until after the approval process was already underway for NV. However, this type of high-payout / high house edge will definitely be added. I look forward to seeing your SMI guys next month.

Quote: EvenBob

Exactly. That would make it exciting.

It was listed on the original post but sorry I didn't reiterate this element earlier after getting caught up with trying to explain the other elements.

You've designed your game for the wrong client. The
casino is your customer, not the player. You have to
please the casino, they have to please the player. Offer
a big payout with a high HE, make the casino happy. The
player will be pulling bills out of his hind end trying
to win the big jackpot. Everybody wins, even the player
once in a great while.

I'm really confused. If you win on 3 and lose on 8, with a 2 to 1 payout, does that give you a 5.26% HE per spin, or per bet resolved? The way it seemed to me is that it's per spin, and the House Edge per bet resolved is around 18.2%!!!

I'm referring to the yellow bet, and I think the other color was light blue.

Take a better look at the kind of new bets on existing games that have made it in the casinos.

Take craps as an example. I'm sure there are some more ways to make bets that pay something around (or less than) 2 to 1 by including groups of numbers in a manner similar to the field bet but the bets that have made it seem to all have a higher house edge and a higher win for the player when they happen.

I think at this point you would be better off trying to get an extra dollar on the table each spin or roll--as opposed to adding a lot of confusing new bets to a simple game. 5.26% HE everywhere except the basket is really a thing of beauty yet still confusing to the dealer when all kinds of corners, splits, and groups hit.

When I played roulette only, I didn't understand (or care to understand) anything other than the payouts for one number at a time. I do get them now but that is because I am a craps player much more than a roulette. I take a shot at roulette...$100 with $10 a spin, $5 on 17 and the other 5 scattered. If I win on the singles bets I may play through my $100 plus smaller wins but if I hit the 17, I limit my losses to just two or three more spins.

I play less than 40 minutes (unless 17 shows up a lot and quickly!!) and I am simply not interested in bets that take more than one spin to resolve. I've never thought that I had a winning system or that I would win more than I lost--I just like playing for a few spins and then getting on to something else. Changing the layout and adding craps-like bets does not interest me. Putting a couple of high risk, high reward easy to understand bets on the table is more likely to draw a chip ot two out of my stack.

I haven't read through 28 pages so feel free to immediately discount this idea right away :).

But in relation to the first page. People play roulette because it's the easiest game to play without knowing anything about gambling. Everyone knows you can pick a color or number and see what happens. This is in contrast to blackjack where you have to make decisions or craps where you have to understand the etiquette, dice, and everything that's all over the table that people are huddled over with their backs to you.

It's true that in craps you can distill it to just "make pass line bet" but when explaining the pay, it is enough to make a new player say "I just like roulette anyways". So that is my critique of your approach. This is why I think a side bet is a better idea for this game like RonC posted.

Quote: Face

And I agree, Roulette is not confusing. Pick a number and wait. That's why I hate it. Odds are likewise simple, other than the basket, divide the total numbers by the number your wager covers and subtract one. Painfully simple.

Face....this is brilliant and I am sure that I am very late to the game in knowing this quick trick for determining payouts on Roulette, but you just made the lightbulb go off in my head with this little nugget! Thanks!

Quote: Boney526

I'm really confused. If you win on 3 and lose on 8, with a 2 to 1 payout, does that give you a 5.26% HE per spin, or per bet resolved? The way it seemed to me is that it's per spin, and the House Edge per bet resolved is around 18.2%!!!

I'm referring to the yellow bet, and I think the other color was light blue.

BTW, I think it's a good idea. But, I have a feeling the House Edge per bet resolved is way too high. (Unless I'm just calculating it wrong)

But one problem I see with it, is that people who like the white numbers have no multi-spin bet. Maybe it'd be best to either make the white bet lose to a 0/00 result, or figure out a way to make the colors all work against 0/00.

I also like Pacman's idea.

Quote: Boney526

But one problem I see with it, is that people who like the white numbers have no multi-spin bet. Maybe it'd be best to either make the white bet lose to a 0/00 result, or figure out a way to make the colors all work against 0/00.

The "white section" is the section that "beats" all the other colored sections -- hence why it's comprised of 8 numbers which is more than any of the other colored neighborhoods. However, for players who want either more numbers or higher payouts on a "neighborhood" bet, the white section is the best choice....however, the trade off is that it is a single-roll bet that is a 5.26% HE.

BTW, the house has the option of either paying the white section payout at 7:2 with a 5.26% or at 3:1 with a 15.79% HE.

With respect to the possibility of the white section only losing to 0/00 outcome, we don't think that would be acceptable to the house since there would be 8 ways for a player to win but only 2 ways for him to lose -- resulting in a player advantage of 4 to 1.

Additionally, regarding your recommendation to figuring out a way for the colors to all work against the 0/00, in a sense the colors DO work against the 0/00 in the fact that the 0/00 do NOT beat ANY of colored neighborhoods.

Quote: Boney526

I also like Pacman's idea

Although not mentioned much in this thread, I outlined our "Over-the-Rainbow" bet, listed on the first page of the post, which does exactly what Pacman stated.

Sorry to arrive late to the party. I've read over the initial post about four times and still don't understand the rules. However, I will stop by the booth at the show for the "Idiot's Guide" version. Your goal should be to explain them to me in 30 seconds or less.

I hate to be a downer, but I've seen many game inventors try to improve upon roulette, and the percentage that crashed and burned is 100%. The furthest I've seen anyone make it is Alphabet Roulette, which at least field trialed at the Fitzgerald's/D. Of all the games to try to improve, roulette would probably be my last choice.

Nevertheless, I wish you success, and look forward to seeing the game at the show.

Quote: Wizard

Sorry to arrive late to the party. I've read over the initial post about four times and still don't understand the rules. However, I will stop by the booth at the show for the "Idiot's Guide" version. Your goal should be to explain them to me in 30 seconds or less.

I hate to be a downer, but I've seen many game inventors try to improve upon roulette, and the percentage that crashed and burned is 100%. The furthest I've seen anyone make it is Alphabet Roulette, which at least field trialed at the Fitzgerald's/D. Of all the games to try to improve, roulette would probably be my last choice.

Nevertheless, I wish you success, and look forward to seeing the game at the show.

Thanks Wizard...

Maybe here's a better way to say it......You can play regular roulette, but if you bet the new colored sections and win, you get paid odds; if your color doesn't come up, your bet pushes; if it lands in the white section you lose.

I look forward to seeing you at the show!

Quote: Pacman

My mathematician and I had the same inclination when we read the initial post: Why don't you offer payouts for filling the entire color section before a white hits?

EvenBob asked why a player would hang around for a dozen spins to get a 7 to 5 payoff. Perhaps he would feel differently if the bet paid 100 to 1 or 1,000 to 1.

I'm kinda surprised at this response, particularly considering the score and comments my Poker For Roulette got at the first SHFL Focus Group.

Specifically, the comments about my game were that players generally don't stay at the Roulette table for long and that five spins is too ling to wait for resolution.

The "Over The Rainbow" bet would be to hit all six colors before the white section. That means a minimum of 6 spins! It would be rare for it to be successfully hit in so few spins...

Regardless, I have taken the comments to heart, and have developed the current 3 spin version, as well as a completely manual method of operating the game. I look forward to giving you a demo when I'm in town next month.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Specifically, the comments about my game were that players generally don't stay at the Roulette table for long and that five spins is too ling to wait for resolution.

As I said yesterday, when its busy the average player
who's winning and losing stays at the table about 40min
or about 12 spins. But thats an average and there are
many players who aren't winning that leave after 4-5-6
spins.

So far today I've read the word confusing 3 times in posts,
and if the Wiz, who's looked at hundereds of these games,
is confused right out of the gate, the average ding dong
player will never understand it if you had an hour to explain
it to him.

Quote: EvenBob

So far today I've read the word confusing 3 times in posts,
and if the Wiz, who's looked at hundereds of these games,
is confused right out of the gate, the average ding dong
player will never understand it if you had an hour to explain
it to him.

Riverboat Roulette: You can play regular roulette, but if you bet the new colored sections and win, you get paid odds; if your color doesn't come up, your bet pushes; if it lands in the white section you lose.

Quote: doubleluck

You can play regular roulette, but if you bet the new colored sections and win, you get paid odds; if your color doesn't come up, your bet pushes; if it lands in the white section you lose.

Put aside the fact you are trying to make $$$ from this addition to basic Roulette,

would you play these color bets and why or why not?

Seems like just adding more bets to game does not add a WOW factor.

What IS the WOW factor to your improved game?

Is it the 100 to 1 payout that you have yet to show??

Quote: doubleluck

Riverboat Roulette: You can play regular roulette, but if you bet the new colored sections and win, you get paid odds; if your color doesn't come up, your bet pushes; if it lands in the white section you lose.

Yes, inventors are real good at explaining their
products in person because they live with them
24/7. When it comes to writing out the rules
so anybody can understand them, they tend
to fall short. Thats why one of the rules of
game design is the KISS rule: Keep It Simple,
Stupid.

Quote: 7craps

Put aside the fact you are trying to make $$$ from this addition to basic Roulette,

would you play these color bets and why or why not?

Seems like just adding more bets to game does not add a WOW factor.

What IS the WOW factor to your improved game?

Is it the 100 to 1 payout that you have yet to show??

We think the twist is having bets that allow for a multiple spin.....while some may not view that as a WOW factor, we believe it will appeal to some. Once we created the core game, we then thought of the Over-the-Rainbow (OTR) bet to accommodate those who may find a higher than 35-1 payout more appealing. We may be wrong, but we believe there are gamblers who like high volatility and those who like low volatility. Those that like low volatility may find the colored sections appealing since they have more chances to win, and don't lose as easily, while those that like higher volatility may find the OTR bet more appealing.

It seems that most all side bets have been added to traditional games that already have a low house edge as the core game....craps, blackjack, baccarrat, poker...as a result, a high-house edge side-bet is appropriate. Conversely, we took another approach with respect to roulette since it's already viewed by most as the absolute worst table game to play since it has such a high HE. As a result, we added 4 side bets that are lower than the traditional HE in order to appeal to players who want a "more fair" game or for those who want to choose their level volatility without having to learn the etiquette / strategy of the other table games.

We may be completely wrong, but that was the rationale in designing the bets and then added the OTR to still give that session or trip changing option.

Quote: EvenBob

Yes, inventors are real good at explaining their
products in person because they live with them
24/7. When it comes to writing out the rules
so anybody can understand them, they tend
to fall short. Thats why one of the rules of
game design is the KISS rule: Keep It Simple,
Stupid.

You're right....After having to write the rules for the LEGAL crowd, then the State Gaming Officials, it may take us some additional polishing and refining them to get the "KISS" effect!

Quote: doubleluck

You're right....After having to write the rules for the LEGAL crowd, then the State Gaming Officials,

But everybody has to do that, and they don't
care if your rules are confusing to the player,
just so the rules explain the game. You're
confusing passing the bar exam with being a
successful attorney. Just because you jumped
thru all the hoops, that doesn't mean your
future in the industry is in anyway asurred.

Quote: doubleluck

We may be completely wrong, but that was the rationale in designing the bets and then added the OTR to still give that session or trip changing option.

Sounds fair.

As a Roulette Dealer, my procedures are to mark the winning number, remove the losing column bets, the losing even money bets and the losing section bets mostly in a long sweeping motion with both hands
and get them away from the layout as quickly and cleanly as possible while I am noting in my mind the winning bets still on the layout.
Then I clean off the losing inside bets while still keep my eye(s) on the winning bets.
Then I pay the winning bets.

Players know or are instantly reminded to keep their hands out of the layout until all remaining winning bets are paid and the dolly is removed.

The placement of the color bets, you have mentioned this earlier,
makes this even more difficult because I can not now sweep the bets off the layout in one or two motions, as now there is a row blocking my efforts.
And how many players are going to reach over unpaid winning bets to remove their pushed color bets?
I say many, they get excited, gambling does that to many, and reach to grab their bet or bets.
This can be troublesome IMO.

How would you suggest this to be done in an efficient way as it currently is
keeping the color row close to the inside numbers?

And lastly, bets that are not resolved each spin, what are the per spin house edges for those color bets?
edit: the stated HE looks to be per spin. Thanks

Quote: EvenBob

But everybody has to do that, and they don't
care if your rules are confusing to the player,
just so the rules explain the game. You're
confusing passing the bar exam with being a
successful attorney. Just because you jumped
thru all the hoops, that doesn't mean your
future in the industry is in anyway asurred.

It looks like you omitted portion of my post, so here it is in its entirety......agreeing with you.

Quote: doubleluck

You're right....After having to write the rules for the LEGAL crowd, then the State Gaming Officials, it may take us some additional polishing and refining them to get the "KISS" effect!

So what do you figure your chances are at G2E
of getting a distributor? 50/50?

Quote: EvenBob

So what do you figure your chances are at G2E
of getting a distributor? 50/50?

I'd figure my chances are right along those outlined in Eliot's book -- much worse odds than roulette!

Here is the summary that I see:

1) Geography of the multi-spin bets is an issue that needs to be addressed. Many dealers and others have expressed concerns about altering the current procedure on sweeping losers.

2) Multi Spin wagers may or may not be attractive to Roulette Players, but there would likely be more interest for larger payouts, like in PFR or the Over The Rainbow portion of RR.

3) 8 to 5 and 7 to 5 payouts are going to be a new concept for Roulette players. Sure they have them in craps, but this isn't craps, its roulette. Many have seen these odd payouts and the resulting $5 min bet on the colors are sticking points....or to use a PaiGowDan term, "they are not elegant"

3) Slowing down the game if not accompanied by higher per spin wager averages either on the colors or on the main layout (casino doesn't care where chips are bet) may be a big problem and D-luck will need to have an answer for that.

4) The game being confusing is debatable. Some say it is, others say its really just "hit your color before you hit a white section"...that isn't confusing. There are folks on both sides of this point

5) HE is an issue.....many here feel that casino's have no motivation to put a lower HE bet on the Roulette table particularly when it will be multi-spins before they have a resolution. While player's would love a lower HE, but if casinos wanted to give them that in a Roulette game, it is already available with a single 0 game.

6) Any side bet to Roulette has to add incremental bets to the table.....simply moving a player's bet from one area of the layout to a different area of the layout is not motivating for a casino unless the bets are being moved to a higher HE bet. How to prove any Roulette side bet will accomplish this hurdle is difficult.

7) Roulette already has enough betting areas....no side bet without huge payoffs is going to succeed. You only get huge payouts in some multi-spin format type of wager.

Did I miss anything else of a constructive nature (ignoring the constant sarcasm & barbs back & forth from Buzz/Bob/Doubleluck)?

You got a lot of good points to think about here DoubleLuck. If I were you, I would spend less time responding to any additional posts and more time between now and G2E analyzing what needs to be done with the game to respond to these potential issues. My guess is you will hear a lot of them repeated at G2E and likely get others that collectively the Forum has not brought up yet. The good news is you have time to get your responses in order between now and then.

All the best and I will stop by the booth to say hello.

Quote: doubleluck

I'd figure my chances are right along those outlined in Eliot's book -- much worse odds than roulette!

In roulette you have a 95% chance of winning. You
think you have a 95% chance at G2E?

Quote: EvenBob

In roulette you have a 95% chance of winning.

I must be doing something wrong. My chance of winning is closer to 47.5% when I play a color.

" Did I miss anything else of a constructive nature (ignoring the constant sarcasm & barbs back & forth from Buzz/Bob/Doubleluck)? "

I would not dare to speak for Evenbob, but I just try and keep the thread alive until a sane person arrives !

Why did it take you so long to get here ?

Quote: 7craps

Sounds fair.

As a Roulette Dealer, my procedures are to mark the winning number, remove the losing column bets, the losing even money bets and the losing section bets mostly in a long sweeping motion with both hands....The placement of the color bets, you have mentioned this earlier,
makes this even more difficult because I can not now sweep the bets off the layout in one or two motions, as now there is a row blocking my efforts.How would you suggest this to be done in an efficient way as it currently is keeping the color row close to the inside numbers?

7craps, I wasn't aware that this was the proper dealing procedures. The procedures that I'm familiar with are ones where outside losing bets are actually picked while inside losers are the only ones that are swept. As a result, when the color bets push or win, the wouldn't be touched, but shouldn't affect any procedures as outlined in the ones I'm familiar with as they would be left in place, while the outside losers are picked. Conversely, when a white section hits, the color bets would be treated as losing inside numbers as swept.

Quote: 7craps

And lastly, bets that are not resolved each spin, what are the per spin house edges for those color bets?
edit: the stated HE looks to be per spin. Thanks

I think you're asking how often will each section hit. If that's what you're asking it should be as follows:

3/38 -- 12.67 spins ( 3 ways to win, 27 ways to push, 8 ways to lose )
4/38 -- 9.5 spins ( 4 ways to win, 26 ways to push, 8 ways to lose)
5/38 -- 7.6 spins ( 5 ways to win, 25 ways to push, 8 ways to lose)

However, when viewed as winning versus losing against the white section, the color sections are as follows:

3 ways to win vs 8 ways to lose -- 5.26% HE per spin
4 ways to win vs 8 ways to lose -- 4.21% HE per spin
5 ways to win vs 8 ways to lose -- 2.63% HE per spin