ACES Gambler's Express Suspended (Halted)? Not Even 2 Yrs. Old

Report: NYC-AC train service to be suspendedAssociated PressATLANTIC CITY - The 2-year-old direct train service between Manhattan and Atlantic City is suspending service for the winter because of low ridership.

The Press of Atlantic City reports that the Atlantic City Express Services, or ACES, train will stop running between Jan. 14 and May 13.

The train service was started in February 2009 by three casinos - Caesars Atlantic City, Harrah's Resort and Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa - to lure New Yorkers to the shore resort.

The service has never turned a profit. The Casino Reinvestment Development Authority pumped $2 million into it the first year to help cover $5.9 million in loses. But the Authority said it would provide no more money to the train.

Train service between Philadelphia and Atlantic City is not affected.--inquirer.com

The ACES train goes by electric locomotive from New York city to Philadelphia. Then a diesel locomotive pushes it to Atlantic City. The extremely roundabout route takes much longer than a bus that goes straight down the Garden State Parkway.

Quote: pacomartin

The extremely roundabout route takes much longer than a bus that goes straight down the Garden State Parkway.

Unless there is traffic on the Parkway.

Normally, particularly in summer, there is plenty of traffic. Of course, since the Parkway is currently undergoing a widening project, that might not be a problem anymore.

Couple that with traffic being diverted to casinos in other states, it becomes even less of a problem.

Quote: pacomartin

The ACES train goes by electric locomotive from New York city to Philadelphia. Then a diesel locomotive pushes it to Atlantic City. The extremely roundabout route takes much longer than a bus that goes straight down the Garden State Parkway.

Dumb casinos.
Who were they trying to bring from Manhattan anyway? Five dollar a bet fleas willing to ride all over the place? Was the train making extra stops somewhere? I guess that use of the word "express" in the name should have been a tip off to me that it was anything but express. Why run a train service anyway if its not going to be faster than a car?
If the train ride is not fast and direct who would want to ride it? Why even offer it? Or is it just that the whole notion was just redistribution of tax revenue?

Quote: FleaStiff

Who were they trying to bring from Manhattan anyway? Five dollar a bet fleas willing to ride all over the place?

The original publicity said they were looking for under-40's.

Quote: FleaStiff

Was the train making extra stops somewhere?

Newark

Quote: FleaStiff

I guess that use of the word "express" in the name should have been a tip off to me that it was anything but express. Why run a train service anyway if its not going to be faster than a car?
If the train ride is not fast and direct who would want to ride it? Why even offer it? Or is it just that the whole notion was just redistribution of tax revenue?

Welcome to the wonderful world of NJ Transit. I've got more than 40 years' daily experience with both the rail and bus operations. Oy!!!

Quote: FleaStiff

Dumb casinos.
Who were they trying to bring from Manhattan anyway? Five dollar a bet fleas willing to ride all over the place? Was the train making extra stops somewhere? I guess that use of the word "express" in the name should have been a tip off to me that it was anything but express. Why run a train service anyway if its not going to be faster than a car?
If the train ride is not fast and direct who would want to ride it? Why even offer it? Or is it just that the whole notion was just redistribution of tax revenue?

The train only stopped at New York Penn Station and Newark Penn Station. The passenger train tracks do not go all the way down the NJ Coast, but stop about 60 miles north of Atlantic City. You have to go by way of Philadelphia (electric part way and diesel for the last leg) which requires two locomotives.

Sorry to dig this up... but is the Philly-A.C. leg still running?, this used to be an easy Amtrak connexion in the 80's/90's. Personally did it 4 times.
Leave New Haven 5AM, change at Philly, 845AM, at 915AM Philly to AC. There before the tour busses at 11AM to 1115AM depending on NJT.
When I turned in the "TO" stubs at Ballys... $25 comp, Two rolls of Q's and $5 meal ticket. Not too shabby for $45 R/T.
Only problem was leave at 7PM... or else. LOL

Quote: NandB

Sorry to dig this up... but is the Philly-A.C. leg still running?, this used to be an easy Amtrak connexion in the 80's/90's. Personally did it 4 times.
Leave New Haven 5AM, change at Philly, 845AM, at 915AM Philly to AC. There before the tour busses at 11AM to 1115AM depending on NJT.
When I turned in the "TO" stubs at Ballys... $25 comp, Two rolls of Q's and $5 meal ticket. Not too shabby for $45 R/T.
Only problem was leave at 7PM... or else. LOL

schedule for Philadelphia to AC
In the morning 9:01AM to 10:35AM (30th street Philadelphia to Atlantic City). There doesn't seem to be a 9:15, so if you can't make the 9:00 you may have to wait.

The standard NJ Transit line is still running. The ACES was a special train that left NYC on the weekend, and it made only one stop in Newark. It never even got as far as the 30th street station, but just pulled into a railyard and switched locomotives. They have to switch locomotives since the Philadelphia to AC run is not electrified, and you must travel by diesel. When I say "switch" locomotives, they carry both kinds with them. They just switch the one that is driving.
Without any stops or transfers it made the run much faster. But it is still slower than a bus since you have to go to PHL.

I figured the schedules had changed a bit toward the tighter in 20-30 yrs. lol

I just don't think there are AMTRAK trains that early anymore. The first one I see is New Haven, CT (NHV) to Philadelphia 7:11 AM- 10:06 AM

Quote: SanchoPanza

The 2-year-old direct train service between Manhattan and Atlantic City is suspending service for the winter because of low ridership.

Its always "low ridership induced by the bureaucrats". If its a Gambler's Express in what manner did it appeal to gamblers and in what manner did it merit its "express" moniker if it was slower than those darned infernal buses. Did casinos offer some special value for a used train ticket? Free shrimp cocktail or free spin of the Big Six wheel or something for riding the train? If not, then the casinos knew the train was not a big deal for them. Diesel, Electric or Emaciated Squirrel makes little difference to the riders: a clean, comfortable seat, a fast, quiet ride, reliable, on-time service! Gamblers are often "sharp" or at least think of themselves as being "sharp". If the "sharpies" ain't riding that darned train, then there is a reason for it.

Think of all the complaining that goes on about the decline of AC casinos ... sure Pennsylvania may be one reason, but I bet the lack of a real Gamblers Express helped.

Quote: FleaStiff

If its a Gambler's Express in what manner did it appeal to gamblers and in what manner did it merit its "express" moniker if it was slower than those darned infernal buses. Think of all the complaining that goes on about the decline of AC casinos ... sure Pennsylvania may be one reason, but I bet the lack of a real Gamblers Express helped.

The train was Express only in that it was faster than the other trains. There is no rail service from northern New Jersey to AC. Philadelphia is out of the way, but they are not going to electrify the Philadelphia to Atlantic City run.

New Jersey is facing the real prospect of being 2nd in revenue behind PA by next fiscal year. They really need to consider putting a casino near a rail stop. If Meadowlands doesn't overcome the political hurdles, then they need to select another location.
NJ Transit Rail map.

To some extent, Atlantic City is but one example of gambling being a geographical competition. Casinos of some sort are now available all over the darned place and states or municipalities must do battle to lure gamblers the way they used to do battle to lure employers with high payrolls. Decades ago Fort Collins, Colorado adopted a program to not try to "buy" employers with tax breaks that deprived the city of money for infrastructure expansion. Quality of life remained high since there was money available for parks, maintenance, social services etc.

Should Atlantic City have done something? Should New Jersey have done something? Probably but what should they do now? Electrifying a rail line might be great but the gambling money is drifting away already so why spend the money now.

If the Gamblers Express was slower than the buses but faster than other trains it surely was not jusifiably viewed as "express" anything. It was some politician or bureaucrat using the word as a marketing gimmick but not fooling enough people with it.

The trip time is from 2:47 to 2:53 in length. The bus from the Port Authority is 2:35. The website is still operating as if the train is running.

Hypothetically, I would take and extra 12 to 18 minutes for the pleasure of riding a train over a bus. But the train is limited to weekends. The entire cost of the train was born by the casinos. That includes maintenance, crew, and the cost of refurbishing the cars. In exchange 75% of the seats are reserved by the casino for comps and package deals.

Slot revenue at AC began plunging the minute the Racinos opened up in Philadelphia.


Incidentally, with the exception of some local fluctuations, Pennsylvania slot revenue basically stays the same as it is a few weeks after the casino opens. The casinos have very little motivation to add slot machines since the revenue is taxed at 55%. There also seems to be little motivation to offer more incentives to increase business. Since PA has now opened it's major casinos for the forseeable future, I suspect that the balance between PA and NJ will level off. There will be added competition from VLT in Aqueduct Casino on a subway stop in Queens.

However, the Pennsylvania casinos only pay a 16% tax rate on table games. For their first year of operations, they should take in about $1/2 billion in table game revenue. As they are highly motivated to increase this revenue at the expense of Atlantic City, they are building hotels and other luxuries to encourage people to come the closer distance. Depending on where you are in northern New Jersey you save 60-90 minutes each direction going to one of the three casinos on the PA/NJ border (Sands, Mt. Airy, or PARX).

Since the NE Pennsylvania mafia controls Mt. Airy, I don't recommend going there. Not that your safety is in any danger, but you are just feeding the bear.

I just went to AC last week from NYC on the Hampton Luxury Liner. It was $10 for a roundtrip ticket. The bus was very nice- extra leg room, they played movies, free wifi, power ports, free bottled water and snacks. It also included $5 in slot play to Resorts, which I didn't use, because the line was so long. They have 4-5 departures a day, each way, so you can leave and come back when you want.

I wanted to take the ACES, but it was $65 minimum for the roundtrip, and if i went on a Sunday, due to the schedules, I would have only had 90 minutes in AC!

Quote: pacomartin

NE Pennsylvania mafia

Quote: pacomartin

feeding the bear

Why does this conjure up the image of a bunch of country hick bears, drunk on Budweiser and shooting off shotguns into the night sky?

I certainly don't think Ace Rothstein when I think of NE Pennsyltucky.

Quote: pacomartin

Depending on where you are in northern New Jersey you save 60-90 minutes each direction going to one of the three casinos on the PA/NJ border (Sands, Mt. Airy, or PARX).

I can think of little reason why anyone would travel for a hour or so extra just to get to some Atlantic City casino. Loyalty? Nostalgia? The opportunity to pay more in tolls and parking?

A recurrent theme in geographically dispersed gambling is that "its not Vegas". Well, no one disputes that. Its just that "hour or so nearer" is a powerful factor and if the Borgata is "not Vegas" well neither is The Sands. So that hour and a half would be a deciding feature for me. Now who knows about others, but it seems that very few like sitting in traffic, even if its a bus or limousine.

To give this an honest answer:

The Jersey Shore is more than just gambling/Atlantic City. Especially "in season" (Memorial Day through Labor Day), there's an entire economy of people renting out beach houses and spending the week at the shore (usually within 30 miles north or south of AC). So, at least for those months, the issue of proximity is lessened a bit.

For the rest of the year - and particularly winter - you have a good point. I'll admit that I'm in a very small minority of wackos that likes to walk the beach on a cold, clear February night and look at the stars. I've even been known to dip my feet in the water once or twice. But I've always been an odd duck.

Also, there's a bit of xenophobia when it comes to the cultural circles of North NJ/NY and South NJ/PA. As a North Jerseyan, I'd rather drive an extra hour "in-state" than go to Pennsylvania. South Jerseyans have the same feeling about NYC. It's a cultural thing. Sprinkles and Jimmies. Properly pronouncing cawfee (the black stuff you drink in the morning). And why 7-11 will always be superior to Wawa (Actually, this one I readily concede. Wawa rocks.)

I mean, really. Pennsylvanians throw snowballs at Santa Claus. Why do I want to go to a state that hates Santa?

Wawa ???

With the rate that I imagine beach houses go for, would anyone have any money left over for gambling?

I'll admit that those who have particular fondness for the area for whatever reasons will feel differently about traveling there, I would question, however, whether their numbers would make that much of a difference to the industry's bottom line.

Someone walking a lonely winter beach screaming back at the seagulls, feeling the sand and surf between their toes and enjoying the solace of uncrowded out-of-season resorts may have a very rewarding experience but one wonders if they will be sufficient whales to make up for all those who pronounce coffee in a different manner and refuse to trek the extra distance.

ACES train service between Atlantic City and New York could end this year

By DONALD WITTKOWSKI Staff Writer | Posted: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 11:55 pm

ATLANTIC CITY - ACES has a catchy name, affordable fares and plush leather seats. Unfortunately, the casino-funded rail service from Atlantic City to New York has lacked a crucial component - passengers.

The Atlantic City Express Service, dubbed ACES, has been unprofitable since it debuted in February 2009. Harrah's Resort, Caesars Atlantic City and Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa - the casinos that underwrite the route - have an agreement with state rail operator NJ Transit to run the trains for three years.

After a winter shutdown caused by low ridership, the luxury rail route has resumed weekend service for the summer, but already there are predictions that the end of the line may be coming soon.

"I will predict it will last no longer than the scheduled three-year run through February 2012. They may, in fact, terminate it at the end of summer," said Anthony Marino, a transportation analyst who compiled Atlantic City's annual tourism statistics for 25 years before retiring as an Atlantic City Expressway executive in 2003.

Despite Marino's gloomy forecast, a casino executive involved in the ACES marketing campaign offered a more optimistic outlook. Jennifer Weissman, regional vice president of marketing for Caesars Entertainment Corp., released a statement saying "ridership projections look very favorable for the summer."

She disputed suggestions the line fell short of expectations.

"The service has always lived up to our projections for occupancy," Weissman said. "We are pleased with the ridership and believe operating on a seasonal schedule will allow ACES to more effectively meet the needs of visitors who are seeking a convenient, unique and affordable way to visit Atlantic City."

As has been their policy in the past, the casinos did not disclose specific ridership numbers. But Casino executives have stressed that fare revenue was not supposed to cover the rail line's operating costs. Instead, the goal is to draw New York customers who ordinarily would not travel to Atlantic City because they lacka car or do not want to ride the bus.

"The ACES train was developed to provide New Yorkers an easy and affordable way to visit Atlantic City," Weissman said. "These visitors to Atlantic City not only pay for the fare to ride ACES, but they also frequent all of our casinos, dine in all of our restaurants and enjoy the unique entertainment offerings throughout the region."--atlantic city press

The train goes about 3 miles by the PARX casino and also within a few miles of Sugarhouse. Maybe they will continue financing the train if Atlantic City discontinues.

Does the train let people on & off in Philly?

Do people do it?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Does the train let people on & off in Philly?

Do people do it?

No it does not stop in Philly. The train is paid for by the Atlantic City casinos. They put two locomotives on the train, one electric and one diesel. They drive the electric locomotive to Philly and back into a train yard; then the diesel locomotive drives it out (where the back of the train is now the front), and uses the diesel locomotive to get to Atlantic City.

I am just saying the Philly casinos may decide to purchase the equipment and pay the costs (they won't need the diesel locomotive) to bring New Yorkers to Philadelphia. The trip would obviously take less time.

The question is would it be worth the expense? It may be special enough so that gamblers would come. But you could just announce a program that they will re-imburse you for AMTRAK trains (either regular or Acela) and have a bus meet the trains.

The ACES train is a "special event" and it doesn't make stops in New Jersey except for Norfolk. It is possible that the Philly casinos will want more stops in NJ.


The siding where they change locomotives is about 3 miles from SugarHouse at:
39°59'53.26"N 75° 5'45.98"W

There is a commuter rail stop within 3 miles of PARX that the ACES train goes right through
40° 4'59.01"N 74°56'0.99"W

Quote: pacomartin

I am just saying the Philly casinos may decide to purchase the equipment and pay the costs (they won't need the diesel locomotive) to bring New Yorkers to Philadelphia.

The diesels were leased by New Jersey and are apparently used on other runs, too:

ACES rail line posts loss of $6 million

(The following story by Donald Wittkowski appeared on the Press of Atlantic City website on December 16, 2009.)

ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. — Officials overseeing a rail line that carries casino gamblers from New York to Atlantic City disclosed Tuesday that the trains have lost nearly $6 million in the first year of operation.

To keep the Atlantic City Express Service on track, the state Casino Reinvestment Development Authority approved an extra $2 million in funding to subsidize the operating costs.

In return for the new CRDA money, Harrah’s Resort, Caesars Atlantic City and Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa, which underwrite most of the rail line’s operations, have agreed to keep the trains running for at least two more years, officials said.

The casino partnership wouldn’t say how many riders have used the service, only that as private companies they never provide ridership figures, even though CRDA money subsidizes the trains.

Dubbed ACES, the train service was launched last February to draw wealthy New York customers to a gaming market that has slumped in the weak economy.

Trains operated at about 80 percent capacity over the peak summer season, but ridership has since tailed off. The number of train trips will be cut from the current 18 to 11 beginning Friday to reflect the traditional slowdown in winter tourism.

Officials had previously refused to divulge the rail line’s financial performance, but revealed for the first time Tuesday that the trains will operate at a $5.9 million loss in the first year.

“We thought we had a break-even operation planned based on New Jersey Transit’s projections of ridership,” said Nancy Wattson, chief financial officer of the Casino Reinvestment Development Authority.

Wattson, speaking at the CRDA’s monthly board meeting, said there is hope the rail line will eventually break even or turn a profit once it fully ramps up. However, another CRDA official expressed concern about the viability of the train service.

“I do wonder how long we can sustain it,” board member Peter F. Cammarano said.

Wattson said Harrah’s, Caesars and Borgata are spending $19 million for operating costs and to buy the luxury bi-level train cars that can carry as many as 300 passengers. The casinos have agreed to pay NJ Transit $3.8 million annually to run the trains.

Previously, the CRDA kicked in $4.5 million to lease the diesel locomotives used on the line. The authority uses funding from Atlantic City casinos for housing projects and economic development.

CRDA Executive Director Thomas D. Carver stressed that the extra $2 million from the authority would be a one-time contribution to the rail line. He said the casinos have agreed not to request any more money.--Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen

Quote: SanchoPanza

The diesels were leased by New Jersey and are apparently used on other runs, too

ACES only runs on weekends, so clearly you only need to lease the locomotives for 2 days per week. They can be used on cost sharing with commuter trains.

ACES runs down the Northeast corridor, then it switches from one locomotive to another between Trenton and Philadelphia. Then it runs on the diesel locomotive out the Atlantic city line.

A regional train takes 60 minutes to go from New York to Trenton when they only stop in Newark. Then it takes another 30 minutes to go from Trenton to Philadelphia (short distance but lots of crossings).

So they can attach the ACES cars to the AMTRAK trains and take them from New York to Trenton. Then it is 16 miles from Trenton Transit Center to PARX which you would have to do by bus. AMTRAK carries cars for a fee.

I don't know if train travel gets a certain "type" of player. We usually think of buses as bringin in slot players, mainly female slot players who get their meal certificate and know exactly where their favorit slot machine is and just park themselves there until the money is gone or the bus is about to leave. I think it would probably be better to comp train tickets for awhile and then once having identified the train-travelers comp them directly and forget about leasing locomotives and having to deal with railroads.

Quote: FleaStiff

I don't know if train travel gets a certain "type" of player. We usually think of buses as bringin in slot players, mainly female slot players who get their meal certificate and know exactly where their favorit slot machine is and just park themselves there until the money is gone or the bus is about to leave. I think it would probably be better to comp train tickets for awhile and then once having identified the train-travelers comp them directly and forget about leasing locomotives and having to deal with railroads.

It is 127 miles from New York to Atlantic City, and the train takes roughly 2:40 . So there is no real time savings by taking the train. In addition you can target the buses to certain critical neighborhoods like Chinatown and Queens which saves people from having to get to Penn Station. The market research (supposedly) said that the ACES train would bring in a slightly better class of gambler who didn't want to drive or be crammed into a bus. Now it doesn't seem to be working out as well as predicted.

From Port Authority Bus terminal in Manhattan I get:
122 miles to Pocono Downs Racino (Mohegan Sun)
90 miles to Mt Airy (280 room hotel / resort feel )
84 miles to Bethlehem Sands (300 room hotel)
81.4 miles to PARX Racino (biggest casino in PA)
96 miles to SugarHouse (small numbers of slots, more emphasis on table games)
113 miles to Harrah's Chester Racino

Even though PARX is slightly closer, you have more traffic because you are going through three urban areas: NYC, Trenton, and Philadelphia. Bethlehem Sands is bigger than Mt Airy. So Sands aggressively run buses to every Asian neighborhood in NJ or NYC.

In theory it would be much cheaper to run to Philadelphia if you just attach the cars to the existing trains. You wouldn't need to pay for train conductors and locomotives, just the fee charged by AMTRAK. But it may be cheaper and easier just to subsidize commercial tickets.

That NJ Transit route map is rather deceptive.

It makes you want to ask, "Why don't they just go direct to Bay Head, and get buses for the last leg?"

Here's why: It's 69 miles!
Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/bay_head_to_ac.PNG
Philly is only 61 miles from AC.

For the record, if the train went direct to AC, (or as close/far as the AC airport), then I can see it being attractive to those that don't want to drive and don't want to ride in a cramped bus. Trains do have more leg room and bigger seats than buses...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Trains do have more leg room and bigger seats than buses...

Not necessarily. The seats on the new double deckers, like the old old Comet and Arrow seats, do not recline. Most bus seats on buses like NJ Transit's MCI's do recline. They also have individually controlled lighting and ventilation, features that the trains lack.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

That NJ Transit route map is rather deceptive.

It makes you wonder why they didn't vote to put the casinos in Asbury Park instead of Atlantic City in 1976. They were both run down ocean towns.


For some reason I am unable to find a postable true scale map for New Jersey trains. Here is one that they wish they had for Southeast PA (SEPTA) (dotted lines means the track exists, but the commuter train does not).


New Jersey's biggest obsession is not making new routes, but redesigning the current system so you can get into NYC without changing trains. Some lines do that today, but most of them don't.

Quote: pacomartin

It is 127 miles from New York to Atlantic City, and the train takes roughly 2:40 . So there is no real time savings by taking the train. In addition you can target the buses to certain critical neighborhoods like Chinatown and Queens which saves people from having to get to Penn Station. The market research (supposedly) said that the ACES train would bring in a slightly better class of gambler who didn't want to drive or be crammed into a bus. Now it doesn't seem to be working out as well as predicted.

It does not seem to be working out at all. Amtrak is not taking reservations for after the weekend of Sept. 17-18. They just don't want to announce it. They haven't even told their own staff about it. It is one big and expensive joke.

Just out of curiosity... is there any sort of NYC to ACY hydrofoil? Is it feasible? I understand there is a West 72nd Street marina and a South Street Seaport marina. Seems better than a train if the trip duration is not high.

Quote: FleaStiff

Just out of curiosity... is there any sort of NYC to ACY hydrofoil? Is it feasible? I understand there is a West 72nd Street marina and a South Street Seaport marina. Seems better than a train if the trip duration is not high.

The high-speed commuter ferries to the Bayshore area (the southern side of Raritan Bay) are touch and go. Some have already failed. And they are quite expensive.

I seem to recall the AC Trop mentioning on their Asian Gaming page that they operate free buses between Brooklyn/Flushing/Chinatown and AC. Actually, yeah; here it is. Call the numbers on that page for the individual route you're interested in if you're interested. The people you talk to on AC Trop's main number have been consistently useless for anything other than hotel reservations, in my experience.

Quote: SanchoPanza

The high-speed commuter ferries to the Bayshore area (the southern side of Raritan Bay) are touch and go. Some have already failed. And they are quite expensive.

Sancho is talking about a distance of less than 25 miles. It would be over 100 miles to Atlantic City.

Quote: heather

I seem to recall the AC Trop mentioning on their Asian Gaming page that they operate free buses between Brooklyn/Flushing/Chinatown and AC. Actually, yeah; here it is. Call the numbers on that page for the individual route you're interested in if you're interested. The people you talk to on AC Trop's main number have been consistently useless for anything other than hotel reservations, in my experience.

Confucius Plaza Apartments (built in 1975) is a limited-equity housing cooperative in Chinatown, Manhattan. The 44 story 433 ft tower block with 760 apartments was constructed in 1975 at a cost of $38.4 million. The coop members are almost exclusively Chinese Americans. The complex is located near the entrance to Manhattan Bridge.

Two buses per day drive from the vicinity of Confucius square the 83 miles to Bethlehem Sands. The buses are $25, but come with $30 in free slot play, and $5 food coupon. Last census Chinatown had a population of 85K of which Asian Population as a Percentage of the Total Population was 66%.

The distance to Bethlehem Sands is roughly an hour closer than going to Atlantic City. Because the Aqueduct casino will not offer table games, it should not offer a lot of competition when it opens this fall.





Dozens of buses come from Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, the Port Authority, and northern New Jersey.

Quote: pacomartin

Sancho is talking about a distance of less than 25 miles. It would be over 100 miles to Atlantic City.

Less than 25 miles? Closer to 21 to pier 11. And that's directly across the water. The driving distance is more like 45 miles. That's just over one hour when there's no traffic.

Quote: SanchoPanza

The high-speed commuter ferries to the Bayshore area (the southern side of Raritan Bay) are touch and go. Some have already failed. And they are quite expensive.

Well, there is no use for any half-way measures. Its either NYC to an Atlantic City casino or its not relevant. Its either economically feasible to have a water-borne casino shuttle or its not, but its ridiculous to have some ferry to an intermediate point. Its either substantially faster than the Train/Bus stuff or forget it. Casinos can no longer afford half-hearted ineffective measures.

ACY casinos have to determine the travel time to the Pennsylvania casinos and then substantially beat that or give up on any sort of train/bus/ferry Deal That Ain't No Deal At All.

Gamblers from NYC may have favorite games and favorite casinos and favorite brands of Scotch and favorite restaurants but they will go to whichever has the least hassles for getting to and fro. Whichever casino wins that battle, then has decisions to make regarding what brand of Scotch they serve, etc. Unless Atlantic City can beat out Pennsylvania, then it will be Pennsylvania casinos that skim the cream of NYC.

Oh sure, there may be some Family Outing to Atlantic City that is more of a trek than a quick gambling trip to a casino, so Atlantic City casinos may indeed plod onward, but I would think the real money is in the dedicated gamblers who want action and probably leave the wife and kids home anyway or else just drag them along and tell them to get lost once they hit the casino.

Las Vegas tried a family friendly advertising campaign for awhile. Circus Circus tried its business model of Bring The Brats. The city did not go bankrupt. Circus Circus did not go bankrupt so its not a complete failure but lets face it, to this day despite all the non-casino revenue stuff, the town is for gambling. Its got to be the same way in Atlantic City: offer a historic boardwalk, aquatic recreation, some ferris wheel or something, arcades, ... but to make money: get gamblers in the door and turn them lose.

Quote: FleaStiff

Well, there is no use for any half-way measures. Its either NYC to an Atlantic City casino or its not relevant. Its either economically feasible to have a water-borne casino shuttle or its not, but its ridiculous to have some ferry to an intermediate point. Its either substantially faster than the Train/Bus stuff or forget it. Casinos can no longer afford half-hearted ineffective measures.

The ferry in this example has nothing to do with Atlantic City. It was merely used as an example.

Lots of people who live in the Atlantic Highlands area work in NYC. The "just over one hour by car" that I mentioned on my last post is without traffic. I shudder to think what people in that area that work in NYC have to deal with on a daily basis in rush hour.

If a ferry can't succeed with that type of potential customer base, what chance does one to AC have?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

If a ferry can't succeed with that type of potential customer base, what chance does one to AC have?

The commuter has to pay the fare or atleast have his boss pay the darned fare. And all he gets is a slightly shortened trip. For the casino ferry, the fare is nominal, he gets a free meal and the ferry is chartered by the casino because the passengers pay the fare when they are in the casino. It would be just like the darned buses: if the buses deliver retirees who do minimum coin in a slot machine, the bus company won't get much money. If the bus delivers real gamblers, the casino rewards the bus company.

Quote: FleaStiff

Well, there is no use for any half-way measures. Its either NYC to an Atlantic City casino or its not relevant. Its either economically feasible to have a water-borne casino shuttle or its not, but its ridiculous to have some ferry to an intermediate point. Its either substantially faster than the Train/Bus stuff or forget it. Casinos can no longer afford half-hearted ineffective measures.

Most ferry trips in the USA are not very long, certainly far less than 100 miles down the Jersey Coast. The Long Island Cross Sound Ferry (casino page) has a promotion, but the ferry trip is only about 16 miles. But they will meet you at New London and drive you to the Connecticut casinos.

Quote: FleaStiff

For the casino ferry, the fare is nominal, he gets a free meal and the ferry is chartered by the casino because the passengers pay the fare when they are in the casino.

The round trip fare between Monmouth County and Wall Street is $43 at seastreak.com. That is for a trip that is less than one-fifth the distance to Atlantic City and that does not have navigate far more difficult waters.

Quote:

It would be just like the darned buses: if the buses deliver retirees who do minimum coin in a slot machine, the bus company won't get much money. If the bus delivers real gamblers, the casino rewards the bus company.

Nope. It is clear from riding those buses that the casinos are mostly interested in just having breathing bodies in their caverns, even if those bodies are using walkers and oxygen tanks. After all, it isn't as if those folks are rolling the bones and shouting out, "Craps check and press me on all the hardways!" in the middle of a hot roll. The defibrillators would have to be connected at all times.

Sunday March 11, 2012: ACES service terminated by three casinos. Financial and ridership data not disclosed. Casinos claim track time and tunnel time in congested northeast rail corridor make the service unprofitable.

Quote: FleaStiff

Sunday March 11, 2012: ACES service terminated by three casinos. Financial and ridership data not disclosed. Casinos claim track time and tunnel time in congested northeast rail corridor make the service unprofitable.

That and a lack of suckers. LOL

Quote: FleaStiff

Sunday March 11, 2012: ACES service terminated by three casinos. Financial and ridership data not disclosed. Casinos claim track time and tunnel time in congested northeast rail corridor make the service unprofitable.

I have a no brainer suggestion.
The train tunnels under the Hudson are over 100 years old, and they are incredibly expensive to replace. Put a casino in Northern New Jersey, near a train station, and the increased traffic from New York will provide the incentive for a new tunnel. Everybody wins!



As we discussed earlier, the Blue Comet which used to go directly to Atlantic City was closed in WWII. The ACES train has to go to Philadelphia first, and then switch from electric locomotive to a diesel locomotive to get to Atlantic City. The increased travel distance and time is not competitive with bus travel time.

When I was on Google maps, there claimed to be a train which went to the Borgata and Harrahs within the city. Someone said it was planned, but never done she thought. Is there? The one I am referring to was supposed to go to the Borgata employee entrance.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

When I was on Google maps, there claimed to be a train which went to the Borgata and Harrahs within the city. Someone said it was planned, but never done she thought. Is there? The one I am referring to was supposed to go to the Borgata employee entrance.

Watch it there. That's getting pretty close to my windmills.
Anyway, the former municipal dump, the back side of the Borgata, is now a wetlands/wildlife/eco preservation deal.