Cheating Video Poker?
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Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHm-55im6aE
Note the following:
1. At the 1:00 point, the player discards the 10 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.
2. At the 2:57 point, the player discards the 7 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.
For now, I mention this only here. I plan to make a wider warning after I give the software brand and a casino using it a chance to give their version.
Personally, I'm starting work on an analysis of 9-6 jacks under this rule where discards are put back in the deck. However, if any of the math geniuses of the forum wish to give it a try and perhaps save me the trouble, please have at it!
I welcome all comments.
Quote: WizardI got a tip about what seems to be a cheating video poker game. Quite simply, the games puts the discards back in the deck. Thus, the player can get back a card he threw away on the draw. This is obviously disadvantageous to the player. Here is a video the player sent me, which I uploaded to YouTube.
Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHm-55im6aE
Note the following:
1. At the 1:00 point, the player discards the 10 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.
2. At the 2:57 point, the player discards the 7 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.
For now, I mention this only here. I plan to make a wider warning after I give the software brand and a casino using it a chance to give their version.
Personally, I'm starting work on an analysis of 9-6 jacks under this rule where discards are put back in the deck. However, if any of the math geniuses of the forum wish to give it a try and perhaps save me the trouble, please have at it!
I welcome all comments.
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Are there no other poker games out that that use some kind of multi deck way of playing the game?
Are single video poker games limited to one deck per game legally?
Quote: heatmapAre there no other poker games out that that use some kind of multi deck way of playing the game?
Are single video poker games limited to one deck per game legally?
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The only thing close to a multi-deck video poker game I have ever heard of is Five Deck Frenzy, where all five positions where dealt from a separate deck. I think this game went the way of the dodo bird in the 70's or 80's. However, you can still find a booklet on the game at the Gambler's General Store.
| Hand | Pays | Combinations | Probability | Return |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Royal flush | 800 | 734,636,352 | 0.000022 | 0.017402 |
| Straight flush | 50 | 3,514,720,736 | 0.000104 | 0.005203 |
| Four of a kind | 25 | 73,614,865,896 | 0.002180 | 0.054492 |
| Full house | 9 | 378,547,499,304 | 0.011209 | 0.100877 |
| Flush | 6 | 366,123,839,872 | 0.010841 | 0.065044 |
| Straight | 4 | 371,569,671,840 | 0.011002 | 0.044008 |
| Three of a kind | 3 | 2,402,049,989,664 | 0.071123 | 0.213370 |
| Two pair | 2 | 4,354,485,731,856 | 0.128934 | 0.257868 |
| Jacks or better | 1 | 7,014,355,671,540 | 0.207691 | 0.207691 |
| Nothing | 0 | 18,807,968,780,940 | 0.556894 | 0.000000 |
| Total | 33,772,965,408,000 | 1.000000 | 0.965957 |
As a reminder, the return of fair 9-6 Jacks is 99.56%. That makes the cost to putting the discards back in the deck 2.95%. I'd love for one of the math geniuses of the forum to confirm or deny this table.
Interesting that the penalty when drawing to one card (Jack or higher) is almost 8%, whereas the penalty when drawing one card to a straight or flush draw would only be about 2%.
On the part of the game designer, was it stupidity or malice?
Quote: gordonm888On the part of the game designer, was it stupidity or malice?
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I did a review on this software already. It was very buggy, antiquated, and generally awful. The review is as nice as I could possibly be with a straight face. That said, I do tend to think it was stupidity. I suspect the programmer didn't know the rules for video poker. Not that it's a good excuse, but the game can be difficult to find outside the US.
In other news, the link to Pure RNG's web site says the account has been suspended.
Quote: WizardThat makes the cost to putting the discards back in the deck 2.95%.
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I should note that the 96.60% return I calculated is based on optimal strategy under the rule that discards are placed back in the deck. If the player followed conventional 9-6 jacks strategy, the cost would be even greater. How much greater, I am not sure at this point.
I assume stupidity.Quote: gordonm888On the part of the game designer, was it stupidity or malice?
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I believe Bob Dancer recently mentioned on a Gambling With An Edge podcast, that the deck continues to be shuffled after the initial deal.
I’m sure Bob meant the stub, but this designer could easily have interpreted the rule to mean shuffle the discards and the stub together.
Or it could’ve been a plain old unintentional stupid programming bug.
Malice? Doubtful. There are plenty of ways to design an online casino to cheat without having the customer know.
Quote: gordonm888I don't think this is a multideck game.
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i was trying to come up with an excuse the game designers could use lol and figured if i pretended it was their intentions people may look at it differently
Quote: HunterhillSo if you had ace ten suited you could still get a royal after throwing the ten away.
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Yes.
Quote: WizardQuote: heatmapAre there no other poker games out that that use some kind of multi deck way of playing the game?
Are single video poker games limited to one deck per game legally?
link to original post
The only thing close to a multi-deck video poker game I have ever heard of is Five Deck Frenzy, where all five positions where dealt from a separate deck. I think this game went the way of the dodo bird in the 70's or 80's. However, you can still find a booklet on the game at the Gambler's General Store.
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Hey Wiz, you actually did a similar analysis some years ago on a Cryptologic game that you categorized under the name "Bonus Video Poker." It is listed on your page of video poker games:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/bonus-video-poker/
These games had what you dubbed a "redraw bonus" that, in the event that you redrew a discard, paid some percentage of the bet back, varying from 16% to 22% of the bet.
There are a couple features of having a chance at getting discards back. The first is that there are no penalty cards. Basic and Perfect Play strategy should be equivalent. In non-kicker games with a redraw bonus, dealt quads should always involve holding 4 cards rather than 5 since you have a chance at getting the discarded 5th card back on the draw.
Quote: WizardThe analysis was not as hard as I thought. Here is what I have for 9-6 Jacks how this game is played.
Hand Pays Combinations Probability Return Royal flush 800 734,636,352 0.000022 0.017402 Straight flush 50 3,514,720,736 0.000104 0.005203 Four of a kind 25 73,614,865,896 0.002180 0.054492 Full house 9 378,547,499,304 0.011209 0.100877 Flush 6 366,123,839,872 0.010841 0.065044 Straight 4 371,569,671,840 0.011002 0.044008 Three of a kind 3 2,402,049,989,664 0.071123 0.213370 Two pair 2 4,354,485,731,856 0.128934 0.257868 Jacks or better 1 7,014,355,671,540 0.207691 0.207691 Nothing 0 18,807,968,780,940 0.556894 0.000000 Total 33,772,965,408,000 1.000000 0.965957
As a reminder, the return of fair 9-6 Jacks is 99.56%. That makes the cost to putting the discards back in the deck 2.95%. I'd love for one of the math geniuses of the forum to confirm or deny this table.
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I don't know about the individual rows (not yet, anyway), but I also get 96.5957% as the ER for 9/6 Jacks or Better.
Quote: drrockHey Wiz, you actually did a similar analysis some years ago on a Cryptologic game that you categorized under the name "Bonus Video Poker." It is listed on your page of video poker games:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/bonus-video-poker/
These games had what you dubbed a "redraw bonus" that, in the event that you redrew a discard, paid some percentage of the bet back, varying from 16% to 22% of the bet.
There are a couple features of having a chance at getting discards back. The first is that there are no penalty cards. Basic and Perfect Play strategy should be equivalent. In non-kicker games with a redraw bonus, dealt quads should always involve holding 4 cards rather than 5 since you have a chance at getting the discarded 5th card back on the draw.
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You have a very good memory. I 99.54% forgot that game. This looks like that game, with no redraw bonus.
Quote: ThatDonGuyI don't know about the individual rows (not yet, anyway), but I also get 96.5957% as the ER for 9/6 Jacks or Better.
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Thank you for the confirmation, Don. You're the best!
Quote: WizardQuote: ThatDonGuyI don't know about the individual rows (not yet, anyway), but I also get 96.5957% as the ER for 9/6 Jacks or Better.
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Thank you for the confirmation, Don. You're the best!
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I know
| Hand | Pays | Combinations | Probability | Return |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Royal flush | 800 | 767,547,516 | 0.000023 | 0.018181 |
| Straight flush | 50 | 3,524,021,144 | 0.000104 | 0.005217 |
| Four of a kind | 25 | 73,598,753,592 | 0.002179 | 0.054481 |
| Full house | 9 | 378,491,782,968 | 0.011207 | 0.100863 |
| Flush | 6 | 362,727,142,360 | 0.010740 | 0.064441 |
| Straight | 4 | 371,824,584,732 | 0.011010 | 0.044038 |
| Three of a kind | 3 | 2,401,771,851,648 | 0.071115 | 0.213346 |
| Two pair | 2 | 4,354,714,729,872 | 0.128941 | 0.257882 |
| Jacks or better | 1 | 7,007,119,858,020 | 0.207477 | 0.207477 |
| Nothing | 0 | 18,818,425,136,148 | 0.557204 | 0.000000 |
| Total | 33,772,965,408,000 | 1.000000 | 0.965925 |
Interestingly, the return is only 0.000032 less than the table based on optimal strategy for the cheating game.
The difference between this return and fair 9-6 jacks return is 0.029514.
Ok, I think I might have one. RF3 with AT, vs FL4. I know the play is close, since a penalty card will flip the play from one to the other. It might be the case that we always hold the FL4, since it only needs to catch one, instead of the RF3, since our chances of hitting the royal have gone down a fair bit, and that is a huge part of the return.
If you could compare the 2 and show us which, I'd be interested from an academic POV.
Quote: DRichIt should definitely be disclosed in a rules screen.
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Absolutely.
If they tell you how they deal the game, then deal as announced, it probably isn't cheating.
Quote: Dieter
If they tell you how they deal the game, then deal as announced, it probably isn't cheating.
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They probably don't say either way. However, I think it should be disclosed if they are not playing by the conventional rules.
Quote: WizardQuote: Dieter
If they tell you how they deal the game, then deal as announced, it probably isn't cheating.
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They probably don't say either way. However, I think it should be disclosed if they are not playing by the conventional rules.
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I can agree with that, too.
Saying nothing and offering a novel game under the guises of a traditional game would seem disreputable.
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com
Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
Play more unique games like Blackjack-11
https://demo.prngcontent.com/
Blackjack-11 is bizarre.
No dealer up-card, no doubling, no splitting.
One card to each position, dealer hits to 7, Aces are 1 or 11, player natural 11 pays 3:2.
Quote: VladAlex1Play demo
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com
Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
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It does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
Quote: rsactuaryQuote: VladAlex1Play demo
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com
Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
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It does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
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How many people are going to click on the rules for a game they think they know. If Vlad hadn't pointed out how to find the rules, would you have looked?
Quote: billryanQuote: rsactuaryQuote: VladAlex1Play demo
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com
Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
link to original post
It does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
link to original post
How many people are going to click on the rules for a game they think they know. If Vlad hadn't pointed out how to find the rules, would you have looked?
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the reason they keep talking about the rules is because legally most places - including in "standards" - that the rules must state exactly how the game works
if they dont it is considered to be "unfair"
Quote: billryanQuote: rsactuaryQuote: VladAlex1Play demo
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com
Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
link to original post
It does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
link to original post
How many people are going to click on the rules for a game they think they know. If Vlad hadn't pointed out how to find the rules, would you have looked?
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Calm down. Of course not, but I'm stating that they aren't trying to hide what they're doing.
Quote: billryan
How many people are going to click on the rules for a game they think they know. If Vlad hadn't pointed out how to find the rules, would you have looked?
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Yes, I look for the rules page.
It is a habit I picked up while playing Class II bingo slots.
The rules for those games are so bizarre, I get a kick out of figuring out the meaning within the double-speak.
Quote: rsactuaryIt does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
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Good find. This does mean I'll have to tone down my language about this, including avoiding the "c" word. Still, I think it's unethical to bury this in the rules page, which I'm sure few players find. In my 24 years writing about casino games, I almost never see table game players ask to see a rule card or slot player paging through rule screens.
You might draw a comparison to Spanish 21 with it's removal of the 10's from the deck. That would be a fair point. However, I think "Spanish decks" were around before the casino game. I think it's also logical that players would ask what the take-back is in return for all the rules that cut their way.
The whole thing puts me in more of an ethical pickle. I welcome all advice.
The entire purpose/aura/existence of casino games is to fool players into playing -EV games. Good job by this game designer, actually!
Edit…. And good job by this forum if alerting us of this new trick the casinos WILL be using!
Quote: AxelWolfSlippery Slope.
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The sheep go willingly to slaughter.
Game Developer FlipLuck studios in Romania (sales office in Spain)
Operated mostly in Eastern European grey / black market and Russia
https://flipluck.com/
Doubt that they can be certify in the regulated market
(Use it if you like. No attribution or licensing required.)
Several recently discussed games have looked quite familiar. Several have needed wildly unfamiliar strategies for a player to realize optimal house edge.
Alternatively Rules page must be popup before game session and then pop down to the menu
Thank you.
Wizard's article 2019 about this concept
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/bonus-video-poker/
2
In standard video poker games the player holds certain cards from the initial five cards dealt. He then asks for a replacement of the remaining cards. The cards to be replaced go out of play. This means that the deck from which fresh cards are dealt does not contain these cards. This is natural because the player does not want these cards in his hand. In Cryptologic's Bonus Video Poker the cards which are to be replaced are returned to the deck. The deck is then shuffled and the fresh cards are dealt. This means that the discarded cards have a chance of being dealt again. This is obviously disadvantageous to the player. Bonus Video Poker compensates the player by awarding bonus credits if a discarded card is dealt again. Other than this difference the procedure of play is the same as that in the standard game.
http://www.casinoadvisor.com/video-poker-cryptologicbonus-lesson.html
3
The concept was created by me +3 in 2005 as an only one way to avoid Moody's multi hand VP patent infringement.
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006059244A2/en
4
amazingly about 50% players accepted this. It was success and tremendous profit
Quote: VladAlex11
Wizard's article 2019 about this concept
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/bonus-video-poker/
2
In standard video poker games the player holds certain cards from the initial five cards dealt. He then asks for a replacement of the remaining cards. The cards to be replaced go out of play. This means that the deck from which fresh cards are dealt does not contain these cards. This is natural because the player does not want these cards in his hand. In Cryptologic's Bonus Video Poker the cards which are to be replaced are returned to the deck. The deck is then shuffled and the fresh cards are dealt. This means that the discarded cards have a chance of being dealt again. This is obviously disadvantageous to the player. Bonus Video Poker compensates the player by awarding bonus credits if a discarded card is dealt again. Other than this difference the procedure of play is the same as that in the standard game.
http://www.casinoadvisor.com/video-poker-cryptologicbonus-lesson.html
3
The concept was created by me +3 in 2005 as an only one way to avoid Moody's multi hand VP patent infringement.
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006059244A2/en
4
amazingly about 50% players accepted this. It was success and tremendous profit
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so you sue?...
Quote: VladAlex1Rules and Pays must be presented on the game layout as an industry gold ethic standard.
Alternatively Rules page must be popup before game session and then pop down to the menu
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Sadly, that is not true. When have you seen on the felt that double after splits not allowed in BJ? I have never seen it, yet some casinos do it.
Quote: DRichQuote: VladAlex1Rules and Pays must be presented on the game layout as an industry gold ethic standard.
Alternatively Rules page must be popup before game session and then pop down to the menu
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Sadly, that is not true. When have you seen on the felt that double after splits not allowed in BJ? I have never seen it, yet some casinos do it.
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I believe Vlad may be referring to the online gaming industry.
I have definitely seen house rules for blackjack signage explaining which games allow DAS and which do not, but that's way out here, well away from Vegas.
Yes, I am online industry guy since 1995
I-Gaming is my job,
"drugs ,sex and rocking roll" is my real life
Quote: DRichQuote: VladAlex1Rules and Pays must be presented on the game layout as an industry gold ethic standard.
Alternatively Rules page must be popup before game session and then pop down to the menu
link to original post
Sadly, that is not true. When have you seen on the felt that double after splits not allowed in BJ? I have never seen it, yet some casinos do it.
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I think what vlad means is in standards like GLI, as well as some state laws make sure that the rules are “normal” rules UNLESS otherwise stated
One problem: Error 404.
At the bottom of the page, the link to this thread points to the WoO domain.
