Thread Rating:

Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 24th, 2021 at 4:36:23 PM permalink
I got a tip about what seems to be a cheating video poker game. Quite simply, the games puts the discards back in the deck. Thus, the player can get back a card he threw away on the draw. This is obviously disadvantageous to the player. Here is a video the player sent me, which I uploaded to YouTube.


Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHm-55im6aE

Note the following:

1. At the 1:00 point, the player discards the 10 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.
2. At the 2:57 point, the player discards the 7 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.

For now, I mention this only here. I plan to make a wider warning after I give the software brand and a casino using it a chance to give their version.

Personally, I'm starting work on an analysis of 9-6 jacks under this rule where discards are put back in the deck. However, if any of the math geniuses of the forum wish to give it a try and perhaps save me the trouble, please have at it!

I welcome all comments.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
heatmap
heatmap
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 2284
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
November 24th, 2021 at 5:06:07 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I got a tip about what seems to be a cheating video poker game. Quite simply, the games puts the discards back in the deck. Thus, the player can get back a card he threw away on the draw. This is obviously disadvantageous to the player. Here is a video the player sent me, which I uploaded to YouTube.


Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHm-55im6aE

Note the following:

1. At the 1:00 point, the player discards the 10 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.
2. At the 2:57 point, the player discards the 7 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.

For now, I mention this only here. I plan to make a wider warning after I give the software brand and a casino using it a chance to give their version.

Personally, I'm starting work on an analysis of 9-6 jacks under this rule where discards are put back in the deck. However, if any of the math geniuses of the forum wish to give it a try and perhaps save me the trouble, please have at it!

I welcome all comments.
link to original post



Are there no other poker games out that that use some kind of multi deck way of playing the game?

Are single video poker games limited to one deck per game legally?
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 24th, 2021 at 5:13:02 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Are there no other poker games out that that use some kind of multi deck way of playing the game?

Are single video poker games limited to one deck per game legally?
link to original post



The only thing close to a multi-deck video poker game I have ever heard of is Five Deck Frenzy, where all five positions where dealt from a separate deck. I think this game went the way of the dodo bird in the 70's or 80's. However, you can still find a booklet on the game at the Gambler's General Store.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 24th, 2021 at 5:14:29 PM permalink
The analysis was not as hard as I thought. Here is what I have for 9-6 Jacks how this game is played.

Hand Pays Combinations Probability Return
Royal flush 800 734,636,352 0.000022 0.017402
Straight flush 50 3,514,720,736 0.000104 0.005203
Four of a kind 25 73,614,865,896 0.002180 0.054492
Full house 9 378,547,499,304 0.011209 0.100877
Flush 6 366,123,839,872 0.010841 0.065044
Straight 4 371,569,671,840 0.011002 0.044008
Three of a kind 3 2,402,049,989,664 0.071123 0.213370
Two pair 2 4,354,485,731,856 0.128934 0.257868
Jacks or better 1 7,014,355,671,540 0.207691 0.207691
Nothing 0 18,807,968,780,940 0.556894 0.000000
Total 33,772,965,408,000 1.000000 0.965957


As a reminder, the return of fair 9-6 Jacks is 99.56%. That makes the cost to putting the discards back in the deck 2.95%. I'd love for one of the math geniuses of the forum to confirm or deny this table.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
gordonm888
Administrator
gordonm888
  • Threads: 60
  • Posts: 5128
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
November 24th, 2021 at 5:20:52 PM permalink
I don't think this is a multideck game. If it were, you would occasionally get the same card two or more times in the first five cards dealt. Paytables on a multideck would have to be adjusted downward because pairs, trips, quads, and flushes would occur more frequently

Interesting that the penalty when drawing to one card (Jack or higher) is almost 8%, whereas the penalty when drawing one card to a straight or flush draw would only be about 2%.

On the part of the game designer, was it stupidity or malice?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 24th, 2021 at 5:26:46 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

On the part of the game designer, was it stupidity or malice?
link to original post



I did a review on this software already. It was very buggy, antiquated, and generally awful. The review is as nice as I could possibly be with a straight face. That said, I do tend to think it was stupidity. I suspect the programmer didn't know the rules for video poker. Not that it's a good excuse, but the game can be difficult to find outside the US.

In other news, the link to Pure RNG's web site says the account has been suspended.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 24th, 2021 at 5:30:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

That makes the cost to putting the discards back in the deck 2.95%.
link to original post



I should note that the 96.60% return I calculated is based on optimal strategy under the rule that discards are placed back in the deck. If the player followed conventional 9-6 jacks strategy, the cost would be even greater. How much greater, I am not sure at this point.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 11008
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 24th, 2021 at 5:31:08 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

On the part of the game designer, was it stupidity or malice?
link to original post

I assume stupidity.

I believe Bob Dancer recently mentioned on a Gambling With An Edge podcast, that the deck continues to be shuffled after the initial deal.

I知 sure Bob meant the stub, but this designer could easily have interpreted the rule to mean shuffle the discards and the stub together.

Or it could致e been a plain old unintentional stupid programming bug.

Malice? Doubtful. There are plenty of ways to design an online casino to cheat without having the customer know.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
heatmap
heatmap
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 2284
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
November 24th, 2021 at 6:26:51 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I don't think this is a multideck game.
link to original post



i was trying to come up with an excuse the game designers could use lol and figured if i pretended it was their intentions people may look at it differently
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 2155
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
November 24th, 2021 at 6:51:56 PM permalink
So if you had ace ten suited you could still get a royal after throwing the ten away.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 24th, 2021 at 6:56:25 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

So if you had ace ten suited you could still get a royal after throwing the ten away.
link to original post



Yes.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
drrock
drrock
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 98
Joined: Mar 6, 2012
November 24th, 2021 at 7:01:45 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: heatmap

Are there no other poker games out that that use some kind of multi deck way of playing the game?

Are single video poker games limited to one deck per game legally?
link to original post



The only thing close to a multi-deck video poker game I have ever heard of is Five Deck Frenzy, where all five positions where dealt from a separate deck. I think this game went the way of the dodo bird in the 70's or 80's. However, you can still find a booklet on the game at the Gambler's General Store.
link to original post


Hey Wiz, you actually did a similar analysis some years ago on a Cryptologic game that you categorized under the name "Bonus Video Poker." It is listed on your page of video poker games:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/bonus-video-poker/

These games had what you dubbed a "redraw bonus" that, in the event that you redrew a discard, paid some percentage of the bet back, varying from 16% to 22% of the bet.

There are a couple features of having a chance at getting discards back. The first is that there are no penalty cards. Basic and Perfect Play strategy should be equivalent. In non-kicker games with a redraw bonus, dealt quads should always involve holding 4 cards rather than 5 since you have a chance at getting the discarded 5th card back on the draw.
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
  • Threads: 118
  • Posts: 6414
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
November 24th, 2021 at 7:13:07 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The analysis was not as hard as I thought. Here is what I have for 9-6 Jacks how this game is played.

Hand Pays Combinations Probability Return
Royal flush 800 734,636,352 0.000022 0.017402
Straight flush 50 3,514,720,736 0.000104 0.005203
Four of a kind 25 73,614,865,896 0.002180 0.054492
Full house 9 378,547,499,304 0.011209 0.100877
Flush 6 366,123,839,872 0.010841 0.065044
Straight 4 371,569,671,840 0.011002 0.044008
Three of a kind 3 2,402,049,989,664 0.071123 0.213370
Two pair 2 4,354,485,731,856 0.128934 0.257868
Jacks or better 1 7,014,355,671,540 0.207691 0.207691
Nothing 0 18,807,968,780,940 0.556894 0.000000
Total 33,772,965,408,000 1.000000 0.965957


As a reminder, the return of fair 9-6 Jacks is 99.56%. That makes the cost to putting the discards back in the deck 2.95%. I'd love for one of the math geniuses of the forum to confirm or deny this table.
link to original post


I don't know about the individual rows (not yet, anyway), but I also get 96.5957% as the ER for 9/6 Jacks or Better.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 24th, 2021 at 7:41:52 PM permalink
Quote: drrock

Hey Wiz, you actually did a similar analysis some years ago on a Cryptologic game that you categorized under the name "Bonus Video Poker." It is listed on your page of video poker games:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/bonus-video-poker/

These games had what you dubbed a "redraw bonus" that, in the event that you redrew a discard, paid some percentage of the bet back, varying from 16% to 22% of the bet.

There are a couple features of having a chance at getting discards back. The first is that there are no penalty cards. Basic and Perfect Play strategy should be equivalent. In non-kicker games with a redraw bonus, dealt quads should always involve holding 4 cards rather than 5 since you have a chance at getting the discarded 5th card back on the draw.
link to original post



You have a very good memory. I 99.54% forgot that game. This looks like that game, with no redraw bonus.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 24th, 2021 at 7:42:37 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

I don't know about the individual rows (not yet, anyway), but I also get 96.5957% as the ER for 9/6 Jacks or Better.
link to original post



Thank you for the confirmation, Don. You're the best!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
  • Threads: 118
  • Posts: 6414
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
Thanked by
rsactuarymipletDeMangoAxelWolfgordonm888
November 24th, 2021 at 7:44:09 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: ThatDonGuy

I don't know about the individual rows (not yet, anyway), but I also get 96.5957% as the ER for 9/6 Jacks or Better.
link to original post



Thank you for the confirmation, Don. You're the best!
link to original post


I know
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 25th, 2021 at 3:43:21 AM permalink
The following return table is based on following optimal strategy in fair 9-6 jacks, but actually playing the cheating game.

Hand Pays Combinations Probability Return
Royal flush 800 767,547,516 0.000023 0.018181
Straight flush 50 3,524,021,144 0.000104 0.005217
Four of a kind 25 73,598,753,592 0.002179 0.054481
Full house 9 378,491,782,968 0.011207 0.100863
Flush 6 362,727,142,360 0.010740 0.064441
Straight 4 371,824,584,732 0.011010 0.044038
Three of a kind 3 2,401,771,851,648 0.071115 0.213346
Two pair 2 4,354,714,729,872 0.128941 0.257882
Jacks or better 1 7,007,119,858,020 0.207477 0.207477
Nothing 0 18,818,425,136,148 0.557204 0.000000
Total 33,772,965,408,000 1.000000 0.965925


Interestingly, the return is only 0.000032 less than the table based on optimal strategy for the cheating game.

The difference between this return and fair 9-6 jacks return is 0.029514.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
3for3
3for3
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 51
Joined: Jan 29, 2014
November 25th, 2021 at 7:15:10 AM permalink
That makes sense to me. I am struggling to come up with a hand that should play differently, armed with the knowledge that we might get a discard back.

Ok, I think I might have one. RF3 with AT, vs FL4. I know the play is close, since a penalty card will flip the play from one to the other. It might be the case that we always hold the FL4, since it only needs to catch one, instead of the RF3, since our chances of hitting the royal have gone down a fair bit, and that is a huge part of the return.

If you could compare the 2 and show us which, I'd be interested from an academic POV.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
heatmap
November 25th, 2021 at 7:48:48 AM permalink
I actually think it is a smart way to design a video poker game. It is definitely misleading for traditional video poker players but I would not consider it cheating. You could advetise your games as having good familiar paytables but hold a few extra percent. It should definitely be disclosed in a rules screen.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 5617
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
November 25th, 2021 at 10:50:43 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

It should definitely be disclosed in a rules screen.
link to original post



Absolutely.
If they tell you how they deal the game, then deal as announced, it probably isn't cheating.
May the cards fall in your favor.
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 25th, 2021 at 11:39:24 AM permalink
This game is insidious. Two generations of video poker have been learned, taught, and played based on a single deck and your discards being unavailable. Intelligent fans know to check the paytable. now they'll find a machine that pays 9-6 and instead of playing a 99.+%game, they are playing one that pays like a 7-5 game.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 25th, 2021 at 1:47:36 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter


If they tell you how they deal the game, then deal as announced, it probably isn't cheating.
link to original post



They probably don't say either way. However, I think it should be disclosed if they are not playing by the conventional rules.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 5617
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
Thanked by
heatmap
November 25th, 2021 at 1:54:06 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: Dieter


If they tell you how they deal the game, then deal as announced, it probably isn't cheating.
link to original post



They probably don't say either way. However, I think it should be disclosed if they are not playing by the conventional rules.
link to original post



I can agree with that, too.
Saying nothing and offering a novel game under the guises of a traditional game would seem disreputable.
May the cards fall in your favor.
VladAlex1
VladAlex1
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 265
Joined: Dec 4, 2015
November 25th, 2021 at 6:48:23 PM permalink
Play demo
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com

Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
I壇 rather have to be a lucky player than good one.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 5617
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
November 25th, 2021 at 7:00:40 PM permalink
Thanks for finding the page, VladAlex1.
May the cards fall in your favor.
VladAlex1
VladAlex1
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 265
Joined: Dec 4, 2015
November 25th, 2021 at 7:01:17 PM permalink
Off topic to create another discussion

Play more unique games like Blackjack-11
https://demo.prngcontent.com/
I壇 rather have to be a lucky player than good one.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 5617
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
November 25th, 2021 at 7:16:15 PM permalink
If the side chatter gets significant, I'm sure someone can effect a fork of the thread.

Blackjack-11 is bizarre.

No dealer up-card, no doubling, no splitting.
One card to each position, dealer hits to 7, Aces are 1 or 11, player natural 11 pays 3:2.
May the cards fall in your favor.
rsactuary
rsactuary
  • Threads: 29
  • Posts: 2315
Joined: Sep 6, 2014
November 25th, 2021 at 7:52:33 PM permalink
Quote: VladAlex1

Play demo
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com

Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
link to original post



It does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 25th, 2021 at 8:33:40 PM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

Quote: VladAlex1

Play demo
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com

Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
link to original post



It does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
link to original post



How many people are going to click on the rules for a game they think they know. If Vlad hadn't pointed out how to find the rules, would you have looked?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
heatmap
heatmap
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 2284
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
November 25th, 2021 at 8:44:58 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: rsactuary

Quote: VladAlex1

Play demo
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com

Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
link to original post



It does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
link to original post



How many people are going to click on the rules for a game they think they know. If Vlad hadn't pointed out how to find the rules, would you have looked?
link to original post



the reason they keep talking about the rules is because legally most places - including in "standards" - that the rules must state exactly how the game works

if they dont it is considered to be "unfair"
rsactuary
rsactuary
  • Threads: 29
  • Posts: 2315
Joined: Sep 6, 2014
November 25th, 2021 at 9:58:39 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: rsactuary

Quote: VladAlex1

Play demo
https://demo.prngcontent.com/games/jacksorbetter/index.html?game=videopoker&isFreeplay=false&siteID=4&gameID=2200&fixedID=test&playToken=loadtest7859&lang=en&lobbyURL=https://demo.prngcontent.com

Rules page on the top-left drop down menu
link to original post



It does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
link to original post



How many people are going to click on the rules for a game they think they know. If Vlad hadn't pointed out how to find the rules, would you have looked?
link to original post



Calm down. Of course not, but I'm stating that they aren't trying to hide what they're doing.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 5617
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
November 26th, 2021 at 2:30:23 AM permalink
Quote: billryan


How many people are going to click on the rules for a game they think they know. If Vlad hadn't pointed out how to find the rules, would you have looked?
link to original post



Yes, I look for the rules page.
It is a habit I picked up while playing Class II bingo slots.
The rules for those games are so bizarre, I get a kick out of figuring out the meaning within the double-speak.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 26th, 2021 at 5:30:03 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

It does say that discarded cards are shuffled back into the deck.
link to original post



Good find. This does mean I'll have to tone down my language about this, including avoiding the "c" word. Still, I think it's unethical to bury this in the rules page, which I'm sure few players find. In my 24 years writing about casino games, I almost never see table game players ask to see a rule card or slot player paging through rule screens.

You might draw a comparison to Spanish 21 with it's removal of the 10's from the deck. That would be a fair point. However, I think "Spanish decks" were around before the casino game. I think it's also logical that players would ask what the take-back is in return for all the rules that cut their way.

The whole thing puts me in more of an ethical pickle. I welcome all advice.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
TomG
TomG
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 2428
Joined: Sep 26, 2010
November 26th, 2021 at 7:10:18 AM permalink
I like it. I am all for trying different things and adding more diversity. Make it stated clearly in the rules and there should be no question that it is not cheating. I've always though multi-deck VP would be a great option. Or a seven card game. Or any pair pays back one on a five-coin bet. Or a high pair pays back zero on a non-wild game. Or a multiplier is determined by a hand of blackjack.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
  • Threads: 122
  • Posts: 11096
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
Thanked by
JohnnyQ
November 26th, 2021 at 8:08:39 AM permalink
If the rules state the discards are reshuffled it is not cheating. I put this as equivalent to 6:5 blackjack. As long as clearly stated, it is not cheating.

The entire purpose/aura/existence of casino games is to fool players into playing -EV games. Good job by this game designer, actually!

Edit. And good job by this forum if alerting us of this new trick the casinos WILL be using!
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22294
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
November 26th, 2021 at 10:08:57 AM permalink
Slippery Slope.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 26th, 2021 at 11:20:59 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Slippery Slope.
link to original post




The sheep go willingly to slaughter.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
VladAlex1
VladAlex1
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 265
Joined: Dec 4, 2015
November 26th, 2021 at 12:18:50 PM permalink
"The sheep go willingly to slaughter."

Game Developer FlipLuck studios in Romania (sales office in Spain)
Operated mostly in Eastern European grey / black market and Russia
https://flipluck.com/

Doubt that they can be certify in the regulated market
I壇 rather have to be a lucky player than good one.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 5617
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
Thanked by
VladAlex1
November 26th, 2021 at 1:26:30 PM permalink
Even if a game looks familiar, it is a good idea to verify the rules are what you expect.


(Use it if you like. No attribution or licensing required.)

Several recently discussed games have looked quite familiar. Several have needed wildly unfamiliar strategies for a player to realize optimal house edge.
May the cards fall in your favor.
VladAlex1
VladAlex1
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 265
Joined: Dec 4, 2015
November 26th, 2021 at 1:49:06 PM permalink
Rules and Pays must be presented on the game layout as an industry gold ethic standard.
Alternatively Rules page must be popup before game session and then pop down to the menu
I壇 rather have to be a lucky player than good one.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26626
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
November 26th, 2021 at 2:15:05 PM permalink
I just wrote a page on Video Poker with Replacement at Wizard of Odds. I welcome all comments and corrections, especially on the "ethical issues" at the bottom of the page?

Thank you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
gordonm888
Administrator
gordonm888
  • Threads: 60
  • Posts: 5128
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
November 26th, 2021 at 6:16:31 PM permalink
Not only are discards not conventionally reshuffled back into the deck before drawing in Video Poker, discards are not shuffled back into the deck before drawing in live-action 5-card Draw Poker or any form of live draw poker, or in any poker-variant table game that has a draw that I am aware of.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
VladAlex1
VladAlex1
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 265
Joined: Dec 4, 2015
November 26th, 2021 at 7:00:22 PM permalink
1
Wizard's article 2019 about this concept
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/bonus-video-poker/

2
In standard video poker games the player holds certain cards from the initial five cards dealt. He then asks for a replacement of the remaining cards. The cards to be replaced go out of play. This means that the deck from which fresh cards are dealt does not contain these cards. This is natural because the player does not want these cards in his hand. In Cryptologic's Bonus Video Poker the cards which are to be replaced are returned to the deck. The deck is then shuffled and the fresh cards are dealt. This means that the discarded cards have a chance of being dealt again. This is obviously disadvantageous to the player. Bonus Video Poker compensates the player by awarding bonus credits if a discarded card is dealt again. Other than this difference the procedure of play is the same as that in the standard game.
http://www.casinoadvisor.com/video-poker-cryptologicbonus-lesson.html

3
The concept was created by me +3 in 2005 as an only one way to avoid Moody's multi hand VP patent infringement.
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006059244A2/en

4
amazingly about 50% players accepted this. It was success and tremendous profit
I壇 rather have to be a lucky player than good one.
heatmap
heatmap
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 2284
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
November 26th, 2021 at 7:50:23 PM permalink
Quote: VladAlex1

1
Wizard's article 2019 about this concept
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/bonus-video-poker/

2
In standard video poker games the player holds certain cards from the initial five cards dealt. He then asks for a replacement of the remaining cards. The cards to be replaced go out of play. This means that the deck from which fresh cards are dealt does not contain these cards. This is natural because the player does not want these cards in his hand. In Cryptologic's Bonus Video Poker the cards which are to be replaced are returned to the deck. The deck is then shuffled and the fresh cards are dealt. This means that the discarded cards have a chance of being dealt again. This is obviously disadvantageous to the player. Bonus Video Poker compensates the player by awarding bonus credits if a discarded card is dealt again. Other than this difference the procedure of play is the same as that in the standard game.
http://www.casinoadvisor.com/video-poker-cryptologicbonus-lesson.html

3
The concept was created by me +3 in 2005 as an only one way to avoid Moody's multi hand VP patent infringement.
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006059244A2/en

4
amazingly about 50% players accepted this. It was success and tremendous profit
link to original post



so you sue?...
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 5617
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
November 26th, 2021 at 8:23:01 PM permalink
I think the article is a good analysis of the game being offered.
May the cards fall in your favor.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11906
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
November 27th, 2021 at 3:49:58 AM permalink
Quote: VladAlex1

Rules and Pays must be presented on the game layout as an industry gold ethic standard.
Alternatively Rules page must be popup before game session and then pop down to the menu
link to original post



Sadly, that is not true. When have you seen on the felt that double after splits not allowed in BJ? I have never seen it, yet some casinos do it.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 5617
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
November 27th, 2021 at 4:10:35 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: VladAlex1

Rules and Pays must be presented on the game layout as an industry gold ethic standard.
Alternatively Rules page must be popup before game session and then pop down to the menu
link to original post



Sadly, that is not true. When have you seen on the felt that double after splits not allowed in BJ? I have never seen it, yet some casinos do it.
link to original post



I believe Vlad may be referring to the online gaming industry.

I have definitely seen house rules for blackjack signage explaining which games allow DAS and which do not, but that's way out here, well away from Vegas.
May the cards fall in your favor.
VladAlex1
VladAlex1
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 265
Joined: Dec 4, 2015
November 27th, 2021 at 4:55:58 AM permalink
"I believe Vlad may be referring to the online gaming industry"

Yes, I am online industry guy since 1995
I-Gaming is my job,
"drugs ,sex and rocking roll" is my real life

I壇 rather have to be a lucky player than good one.
heatmap
heatmap
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 2284
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
November 27th, 2021 at 7:49:08 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: VladAlex1

Rules and Pays must be presented on the game layout as an industry gold ethic standard.
Alternatively Rules page must be popup before game session and then pop down to the menu
link to original post



Sadly, that is not true. When have you seen on the felt that double after splits not allowed in BJ? I have never seen it, yet some casinos do it.
link to original post



I think what vlad means is in standards like GLI, as well as some state laws make sure that the rules are 渡ormal rules UNLESS otherwise stated
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
  • Threads: 207
  • Posts: 11008
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 30th, 2021 at 3:15:30 PM permalink
Good article.
One problem: Error 404.
At the bottom of the page, the link to this thread points to the WoO domain.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
  • Jump to: