Wizard
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Wizard
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November 24th, 2021 at 4:36:23 PM permalink
I got a tip about what seems to be a cheating video poker game. Quite simply, the games puts the discards back in the deck. Thus, the player can get back a card he threw away on the draw. This is obviously disadvantageous to the player. Here is a video the player sent me, which I uploaded to YouTube.


Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHm-55im6aE

Note the following:

1. At the 1:00 point, the player discards the 10 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.
2. At the 2:57 point, the player discards the 7 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.

For now, I mention this only here. I plan to make a wider warning after I give the software brand and a casino using it a chance to give their version.

Personally, I'm starting work on an analysis of 9-6 jacks under this rule where discards are put back in the deck. However, if any of the math geniuses of the forum wish to give it a try and perhaps save me the trouble, please have at it!

I welcome all comments.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
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November 24th, 2021 at 5:06:07 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I got a tip about what seems to be a cheating video poker game. Quite simply, the games puts the discards back in the deck. Thus, the player can get back a card he threw away on the draw. This is obviously disadvantageous to the player. Here is a video the player sent me, which I uploaded to YouTube.


Direct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHm-55im6aE

Note the following:

1. At the 1:00 point, the player discards the 10 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.
2. At the 2:57 point, the player discards the 7 of hearts and gets it back on the draw.

For now, I mention this only here. I plan to make a wider warning after I give the software brand and a casino using it a chance to give their version.

Personally, I'm starting work on an analysis of 9-6 jacks under this rule where discards are put back in the deck. However, if any of the math geniuses of the forum wish to give it a try and perhaps save me the trouble, please have at it!

I welcome all comments.
link to original post



Are there no other poker games out that that use some kind of multi deck way of playing the game?

Are single video poker games limited to one deck per game legally?
Wizard
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Wizard
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November 24th, 2021 at 5:13:02 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Are there no other poker games out that that use some kind of multi deck way of playing the game?

Are single video poker games limited to one deck per game legally?
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The only thing close to a multi-deck video poker game I have ever heard of is Five Deck Frenzy, where all five positions where dealt from a separate deck. I think this game went the way of the dodo bird in the 70's or 80's. However, you can still find a booklet on the game at the Gambler's General Store.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Wizard
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Wizard
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November 24th, 2021 at 5:14:29 PM permalink
The analysis was not as hard as I thought. Here is what I have for 9-6 Jacks how this game is played.

Hand Pays Combinations Probability Return
Royal flush 800 734,636,352 0.000022 0.017402
Straight flush 50 3,514,720,736 0.000104 0.005203
Four of a kind 25 73,614,865,896 0.002180 0.054492
Full house 9 378,547,499,304 0.011209 0.100877
Flush 6 366,123,839,872 0.010841 0.065044
Straight 4 371,569,671,840 0.011002 0.044008
Three of a kind 3 2,402,049,989,664 0.071123 0.213370
Two pair 2 4,354,485,731,856 0.128934 0.257868
Jacks or better 1 7,014,355,671,540 0.207691 0.207691
Nothing 0 18,807,968,780,940 0.556894 0.000000
Total 33,772,965,408,000 1.000000 0.965957


As a reminder, the return of fair 9-6 Jacks is 99.56%. That makes the cost to putting the discards back in the deck 2.95%. I'd love for one of the math geniuses of the forum to confirm or deny this table.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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November 24th, 2021 at 5:20:52 PM permalink
I don't think this is a multideck game. If it were, you would occasionally get the same card two or more times in the first five cards dealt. Paytables on a multideck would have to be adjusted downward because pairs, trips, quads, and flushes would occur more frequently

Interesting that the penalty when drawing to one card (Jack or higher) is almost 8%, whereas the penalty when drawing one card to a straight or flush draw would only be about 2%.

On the part of the game designer, was it stupidity or malice?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Wizard
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November 24th, 2021 at 5:26:46 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

On the part of the game designer, was it stupidity or malice?
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I did a review on this software already. It was very buggy, antiquated, and generally awful. The review is as nice as I could possibly be with a straight face. That said, I do tend to think it was stupidity. I suspect the programmer didn't know the rules for video poker. Not that it's a good excuse, but the game can be difficult to find outside the US.

In other news, the link to Pure RNG's web site says the account has been suspended.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Wizard
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November 24th, 2021 at 5:30:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

That makes the cost to putting the discards back in the deck 2.95%.
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I should note that the 96.60% return I calculated is based on optimal strategy under the rule that discards are placed back in the deck. If the player followed conventional 9-6 jacks strategy, the cost would be even greater. How much greater, I am not sure at this point.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
DJTeddyBear
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November 24th, 2021 at 5:31:08 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

On the part of the game designer, was it stupidity or malice?
link to original post

I assume stupidity.

I believe Bob Dancer recently mentioned on a Gambling With An Edge podcast, that the deck continues to be shuffled after the initial deal.

I知 sure Bob meant the stub, but this designer could easily have interpreted the rule to mean shuffle the discards and the stub together.

Or it could致e been a plain old unintentional stupid programming bug.

Malice? Doubtful. There are plenty of ways to design an online casino to cheat without having the customer know.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
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November 24th, 2021 at 6:26:51 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I don't think this is a multideck game.
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i was trying to come up with an excuse the game designers could use lol and figured if i pretended it was their intentions people may look at it differently
Hunterhill
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November 24th, 2021 at 6:51:56 PM permalink
So if you had ace ten suited you could still get a royal after throwing the ten away.
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