Machines tighter, looser or same?

Quote: GaryJKoehler

We just got back from a trip to Reno.

The Peppermill had zillions of machines. Love that place.

Next time, go to the Western Village in Sparks. They are owned by the Peppermill. Although they don’t have a lot of machines I think they have the best machines. They also have the best steakhouse in the area. Since I live across the street from the Nugget, I end up spending most of the time there. That’s where I hit my last RF.

Quote: rsactuary

or just variance?

how is it variance?
isnt the slot return just the avg of all the returns the slots are set to?

ie:
if there are 100 machines set to 89% return and 105 set to 92% then avg is
(8900 + 9660)/205 =90.5%

or am i not understanding how the published quarterly return is arrived at?
if this, then how is the avg return % arrived at?

Quote: 100xOdds

how is it variance?
isnt the slot return just the avg of all the returns the slots are set to?

ie:
if there are 100 machines set to 89% return and 105 set to 92% then avg is
(8900 + 9660)/205 =90.5%

or am i not understanding how the published quarterly return is arrived at?
if this, then how is the avg return % arrived at?

Casinos don't report their theoretical holds, they report actual results over the previous month/quarter/whatever. It could very well be variance and I suspect it is. It would be odd to change the holds on all machines so you could get just a few tenths of a percent more and it may not be possible. Hopefully Drich will comment on this but I suspect most machines have maybe 8-10 different return options that are all about 1% apart, not a dimmer switch where you can fine tune the return. If the theories being floated here were correct you'd think they would take an extra 4-5%, and why not? Pent up demand!

Casinos have a philosophy about how they are going to set their payback, and it is not done in a vacuum--in fact their marketing philosophy and their payback are closely intertwined. Some places give you great rules but are stingy with comps. Other places will tear you to shreds at the machines and then "pay" you handsomely with comps for playing. Still other places have so much demand they can give you lousy rules and minimal marketing because their demand is high regardless. Some places have different philosophies within the same casino! "You can play this very loose game but you won't earn any points," and that sort of thing.

I would be surprised if many places actually changed their whole approach because of covid. However they may make some temporary changes to their marketing. The fact that they lost months of revenue could be an argument for increasing or decreasing marketing budgets; regardless marketing is more flexible than payback, and that's where you are seeing the changes.

Quote: 100xOdds

how is it variance?
isnt the slot return just the avg of all the returns the slots are set to?

ie:
if there are 100 machines set to 89% return and 105 set to 92% then avg is
(8900 + 9660)/205 =90.5%

or am i not understanding how the published quarterly return is arrived at?
if this, then how is the avg return % arrived at?

The above poster did an excellent job explaining, but it's essentially actual hold. So $$ paid out / $$ bet.

I just 4 Aces with a K last night for a 1000 playing triple double. Different machine.

Just hut another Royal tonight. That makes two in one week.



http://imgur.com/gallery/s3NnZ1p

I voted looser, but I may be a little biased.

If you're winning Royal Flushes or big jackpots with less than a handful of spins left on the credit meter, I think someone in the backroom is watching your game so damn closely and triggering a win for you.

Quote: Vegasrider

Anyone notice any difference since the casinos has opened up? Any big wins?
link to original post

I'm a new member for the second time, lol. Lived in Vegas for a number of years, now back after covid visiting family. And found this thread. VP addict for years, we've been here about 3 weeks so far, and I have not won a dime. I lose EVERYTHING, very fast. Quads once in 2 weeks. I play .25 / DDB exclusively and have been in many of my old spots where I was successfull when I lived here, we left 6 years ago.

The play is significantly different. LOTS of pairs and trips, just enough to put points on the players card, but I've played $100,$200 and not gotten a FH, much less Qs.

Very tight.

That's not how it works, but ok.

Quote: rsactuary

That's not how it works, but ok.
link to original post

how does it work?

Quote: KaiHurley

Quote: Vegasrider

Anyone notice any difference since the casinos has opened up? Any big wins?
link to original post

I'm a new member for the second time, lol. Lived in Vegas for a number of years, now back after covid visiting family. And found this thread. VP addict for years, we've been here about 3 weeks so far, and I have not won a dime. I lose EVERYTHING, very fast. Quads once in 2 weeks. I play .25 / DDB exclusively and have been in many of my old spots where I was successfull when I lived here, we left 6 years ago.

The play is significantly different. LOTS of pairs and trips, just enough to put points on the players card, but I've played $100,$200 and not gotten a FH, much less Qs.

Very tight.
link to original post

Not sure about VP, but no one really knows what each casino is doing with their hold percentages. It’s a secret guarded like Fort Knox. They don’t want you knowing. Percentages based on strip or downtown are published by gaming control.

Beyond that, you’ll never know for sure what they are or are not doing with the hold.

I question if any of the floor personnel even know the hold number. It’s one guy. VP of slots. He won’t say a word to anyone other than maybe his boss.

Quote: TDVegas

Not sure about VP, but no one really knows what each casino is doing with their hold percentages. It’s a secret guarded like Fort Knox. They don’t want you knowing. Percentages based on strip or downtown are published by gaming control.

Beyond that, you’ll never know for sure what they are or are not doing with the hold.

I question if any of the floor personnel even know the hold number. It’s one guy. VP of slots. He won’t say a word to anyone other than maybe his boss.
link to original post

While I assume that the average slot attendant can not see the configured RTP of the slots, are they not able to see the current meters and from that deduce the realized hold for individual machines over limited time?

I'm just surprised if there's not a savvy slot tech out there that would be able to glance enough data to actually have real insight into some of this. I really wish I had a good friend working at the casino. :)

I just know from 30 years of playing video poker in multiple states and countries, these machines aren't playing the way I am somewhat used to. I don't have hard data, just my gut. When you play several hours and thousands of hands and can't pull a 4oak in 2 weeks something ain't right.

Quote: KaiHurley

I just know from 30 years of playing video poker in multiple states and countries, these machines aren't playing the way I am somewhat used to. I don't have hard data, just my gut. When you play several hours and thousands of hands and can't pull a 4oak in 2 weeks something ain't right.
link to original post

It would not surprise me if your gut is correct. I have regular slot players that moved out here from NJ two years ago. All 3 are telling me they had better luck with PA casino slots than Stations casinos…in a big way. Wins in AC & PA casinos of $150, $200, $250 have turned into wins here of $25, $50, $75. Same machines. Same type wagering. VP works a bit differently re pay table.

Quote: Mukke

While I assume that the average slot attendant can not see the configured RTP of the slots, are they not able to see the current meters and from that deduce the realized hold for individual machines over limited time?

For video poker in Nevada the only variable is the paytable. The RTP is determined exclusively by the paytable. Most likely you are just experiencing variance. Anyone can figure out the hold percentage just using the paytable. If you post the paytable almost anyone here can tell you the percentage.

Quote: DRich

Quote: Mukke

While I assume that the average slot attendant can not see the configured RTP of the slots, are they not able to see the current meters and from that deduce the realized hold for individual machines over limited time?

For video poker in Nevada the only variable is the paytable. The RTP is determined exclusively by the paytable. Most likely you are just experiencing variance. Anyone can figure out the hold percentage just using the paytable. If you post the paytable almost anyone here can tell you the percentage.
link to original post

Exactly. There's no messing with the deal of the cards.

Quote: DRich

Quote: Mukke

While I assume that the average slot attendant can not see the configured RTP of the slots, are they not able to see the current meters and from that deduce the realized hold for individual machines over limited time?

For video poker in Nevada the only variable is the paytable. The RTP is determined exclusively by the paytable. Most likely you are just experiencing variance. Anyone can figure out the hold percentage just using the paytable. If you post the paytable almost anyone here can tell you the percentage.
link to original post

You might be confusing me with someone else. I'm not worried about VP, I'm interested in slots. If you read my question in that context it may make more sense.

I'm well aware that any talk in this thread about VPs having somehow nerfed payout without the paytable being adjusted is nonsense. As is any claim that someone can feel "from experience" that slot machines have higher or lower RTP this day, week or month.

Quote: DRich

Quote: Mukke

While I assume that the average slot attendant can not see the configured RTP of the slots, are they not able to see the current meters and from that deduce the realized hold for individual machines over limited time?

For video poker in Nevada the only variable is the paytable. The RTP is determined exclusively by the paytable. Most likely you are just experiencing variance. Anyone can figure out the hold percentage just using the paytable. If you post the paytable almost anyone here can tell you the percentage.
link to original post

Right. There is no EPROM chip with a hold percentage in VP, AFAIK.. The only way to increase the hold is to lower the payouts (pay table) per win. Since it’s a same virtual 52 deck deal…the only way to increase the hold is by changing the pay table.

Quote: Mukke

Quote: TDVegas

Not sure about VP, but no one really knows what each casino is doing with their hold percentages. It’s a secret guarded like Fort Knox. They don’t want you knowing. Percentages based on strip or downtown are published by gaming control.

Beyond that, you’ll never know for sure what they are or are not doing with the hold.

I question if any of the floor personnel even know the hold number. It’s one guy. VP of slots. He won’t say a word to anyone other than maybe his boss.
link to original post

While I assume that the average slot attendant can not see the configured RTP of the slots, are they not able to see the current meters and from that deduce the realized hold for individual machines over limited time?

I'm just surprised if there's not a savvy slot tech out there that would be able to glance enough data to actually have real insight into some of this. I really wish I had a good friend working at the casino. :)
link to original post

I don’t know. My guess is the hold percentage is buried in the chip. The only one who knows is the guy who ordered the chip. EPROM chip.

Quote: TDVegas

Quote: Mukke

Quote: TDVegas

Not sure about VP, but no one really knows what each casino is doing with their hold percentages. It’s a secret guarded like Fort Knox. They don’t want you knowing. Percentages based on strip or downtown are published by gaming control.

Beyond that, you’ll never know for sure what they are or are not doing with the hold.

I question if any of the floor personnel even know the hold number. It’s one guy. VP of slots. He won’t say a word to anyone other than maybe his boss.
link to original post

While I assume that the average slot attendant can not see the configured RTP of the slots, are they not able to see the current meters and from that deduce the realized hold for individual machines over limited time?

I'm just surprised if there's not a savvy slot tech out there that would be able to glance enough data to actually have real insight into some of this. I really wish I had a good friend working at the casino. :)
link to original post

I don’t know. My guess is the hold percentage is buried in the chip. The only one who knows is the guy who ordered the chip. EPROM chip.
link to original post

As someone who has programmed the chips I can tell you that each paytable in the setup screen tells the hold percentage.

Quote: DRich

Quote: TDVegas

Quote: Mukke

Quote: TDVegas

Not sure about VP, but no one really knows what each casino is doing with their hold percentages. It’s a secret guarded like Fort Knox. They don’t want you knowing. Percentages based on strip or downtown are published by gaming control.

Beyond that, you’ll never know for sure what they are or are not doing with the hold.

I question if any of the floor personnel even know the hold number. It’s one guy. VP of slots. He won’t say a word to anyone other than maybe his boss.
link to original post

While I assume that the average slot attendant can not see the configured RTP of the slots, are they not able to see the current meters and from that deduce the realized hold for individual machines over limited time?

I'm just surprised if there's not a savvy slot tech out there that would be able to glance enough data to actually have real insight into some of this. I really wish I had a good friend working at the casino. :)
link to original post

I don’t know. My guess is the hold percentage is buried in the chip. The only one who knows is the guy who ordered the chip. EPROM chip.
link to original post

As someone who has programmed the chips I can tell you that each paytable in the setup screen tells the hold percentage.
link to original post

Very good. I’ve seen the screens come on line after being shut down. Looks like a DOS set up. So I could see the hold percentage?

Sigh

So may people cross talking and no-one getting across.

I’m still playing VP regularly. I pay attention to the progressive and I do see most get hit before it gets very. high. I think Ive only hit 1 or 2 royals this year.

However whenever I sit down and play, I always set my stopwatch on my phone. I want to know how long it’s been since I hit quads. Sometimes it within a matter of minutes and on occasion over an hour!

Quote: Vegasrider

I’m still playing VP regularly. I pay attention to the progressive and I do see most get hit before it gets very. high. I think Ive only hit 1 or 2 royals this year.

However whenever I sit down and play, I always set my stopwatch on my phone. I want to know how long it’s been since I hit quads. Sometimes it within a matter of minutes and on occasion over an hour!
link to original post

on average quads come every 400 hands. I play between 15 and 20 hands a minute. should get quads every 20 mins (plus or minus) variation doesn't explain no quads in my playing for 2 weeks, well over $1k in .25 DDB. many times I stay on 1 machine for an hour or more. any "video poker millionaires" want to explain that one?

Quote: KaiHurley

Quote: Vegasrider

I’m still playing VP regularly. I pay attention to the progressive and I do see most get hit before it gets very. high. I think Ive only hit 1 or 2 royals this year.

However whenever I sit down and play, I always set my stopwatch on my phone. I want to know how long it’s been since I hit quads. Sometimes it within a matter of minutes and on occasion over an hour!
link to original post

on average quads come every 400 hands. I play between 15 and 20 hands a minute. should get quads every 20 mins (plus or minus) variation doesn't explain no quads in my playing for 2 weeks, well over $1k in .25 DDB. many times I stay on 1 machine for an hour or more. any "video poker millionaires" want to explain that one?
link to original post

So if you think they've gaffed the machine, report them to the Gaming Commission because that would be illegal.

Quote: KaiHurley

on average quads come every 400 hands. I play between 15 and 20 hands a minute. should get quads every 20 mins (plus or minus) variation doesn't explain no quads in my playing for 2 weeks, well over $1k in .25 DDB. many times I stay on 1 machine for an hour or more. any "video poker millionaires" want to explain that one?
link to original post

Is that "well over $1k" coin-in? Each 1K is only 800 plays.

Even if you have $1750 coin-in, and the probability of getting quads using your strategy is 1/400, there is about a 1/33 chance that you don't get quads in those 1400 plays. That's slightly more likely than rolling snakeeyes.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: KaiHurley

on average quads come every 400 hands. I play between 15 and 20 hands a minute. should get quads every 20 mins (plus or minus) variation doesn't explain no quads in my playing for 2 weeks, well over $1k in .25 DDB. many times I stay on 1 machine for an hour or more. any "video poker millionaires" want to explain that one?
link to original post

Is that "well over $1k" coin-in? Each 1K is only 800 plays.

Even if you have $1750 coin-in, and the probability of getting quads using your strategy is 1/400, there is about a 1/33 chance that you don't get quads in those 1400 plays. That's slightly more likely than rolling snakeeyes.
link to original post

Coin in plus coin out for $1k gets you WAY more than 800 plays. I'm sure somwhere someone can give a close estimate of the number of hands $1k will actually result in, and it's not just simply dividing 1000/1.25.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: KaiHurley

on average quads come every 400 hands. I play between 15 and 20 hands a minute. should get quads every 20 mins (plus or minus) variation doesn't explain no quads in my playing for 2 weeks, well over $1k in .25 DDB. many times I stay on 1 machine for an hour or more. any "video poker millionaires" want to explain that one?
link to original post

Is that "well over $1k" coin-in? Each 1K is only 800 plays.

Even if you have $1750 coin-in, and the probability of getting quads using your strategy is 1/400, there is about a 1/33 chance that you don't get quads in those 1400 plays. That's slightly more likely than rolling snakeeyes.
link to original post

I believe he was playing until he lost $1000 not $1000 coin in.

Quote: DRich

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: KaiHurley

on average quads come every 400 hands. I play between 15 and 20 hands a minute. should get quads every 20 mins (plus or minus) variation doesn't explain no quads in my playing for 2 weeks, well over $1k in .25 DDB. many times I stay on 1 machine for an hour or more. any "video poker millionaires" want to explain that one?
link to original post

Is that "well over $1k" coin-in? Each 1K is only 800 plays.

Even if you have $1750 coin-in, and the probability of getting quads using your strategy is 1/400, there is about a 1/33 chance that you don't get quads in those 1400 plays. That's slightly more likely than rolling snakeeyes.
link to original post

I believe he was playing until he lost $1000 not $1000 coin in.
link to original post

Yes, that's 20 $50 bills out of my pocket. Over several days. Got loads of winning pairs. I bet I get a winning pair or 2 pair every other hand. We went to Boulder station this morning, I dropped another $200 on DDB, kept track this time- $200 on 3 different .25 machines, I got 4 FH, 4 flush, 3 straights Didn't count prs or trips. That's the TOTAL of what I got. The play is different and dead.