Tribal Casino - Using other's players cards?

Quote: drrock

My guess is that this idea of his is a rationalization to allow him saving face. His story about the $100 bill, perhaps even made up, is ironic. He has been expressing the idea that vulturing multipliers is of low moral standing ever since he made an offer of $100 to ANYONE (on videopoker.com) that could inform him of advantage plays in Florida. Someone quickly mentioned Ultimate X (along with progressives) and he welched on his offer. Ultimate X was seen as below him and progressives were not available every day. So, the story about keeping $100 that was due to someone else is not really all that surprising for longtime videopoker.com forum members.

For those of you who don't visit videopoker.com's forum, you should know that you apparently did a number on SVP's psyche. Your logical, well-reasoned responses and rebuttals that many of you produced in threads like this one seemed to have overwhelmed him. Even though SVP stated here that he did not intend on going back to that forum until Bob Dancer apologized for one of his columns where Bob wrote about having no problem if a hypothetical non-existent son-in-law chose to be an advantage player, it looks like SVP could not get back to the relative safe haven of videopoker.com's forum fast enough. I'm fairly certain that Bob did not apologize, so you have to form your own explanations why he is back there and no longer posting here.

Evidently my earlier post also had an effect. Even though he did not respond to it here, he decided finally to honor the nearly year-long $100 debt in his first post back after his 6-month suspension. There are many more posters there that seem to lead with their emotions rather than reason. Quite a few don't remember SVP's relentless and repetitive badgering of every Bob Dancer post for years and many are ruled by rage over Bob's subsequent responses when they have been less than generous about SVP's acumen. Many of the more knowledgeable posters decided long ago that it was not worth the time to wade through the nonsense and repetition and have ceased participating. SVP is generally being welcomed back while many seem to be happy if they can drive Dancer away.

To each their own, I guess. Good luck with the continued spreading of knowledge.

Quote: darkoz

Scamming is illegal. Using other players cards with permission of the cardholders is not illegal, therefore not a scam.

In another thread we are discussing how casinos feel vulturing Ultimate X multipliers is a cheat move and the work of scammers

Don't fall into the ugly casino trap of labeling every AP move a scam.

That said, the tribal lands autonomy is something to be wary of. However the biggest penalty would be refusal of payment. They won't throw him into tribal land prison I am pretty certain.

As long as he can prove his people gave him permission to use the cards

wasnt there a thread where you told us the exact reason why using someone elses card is not a crime? I have a friend who previously managed slots at sands beth. and they didnt care which card was in the machine it was whoever pressed the button. But I along with him do not know the laws of florida or tribal gaming. You wouldnt be able to summarize a list of states with the word yes or no if you think its illegal to use someone elses card, or do you think its not illegal anywhere to use someone elses card?

Quote: heatmap

wasnt there a thread where you told us the exact reason why using someone elses card is not a crime? I have a friend who previously managed slots at sands beth. and they didnt care which card was in the machine it was whoever pressed the button. But I along with him do not know the laws of florida or tribal gaming. You wouldnt be able to summarize a list of states with the word yes or no if you think its illegal to use someone elses card, or do you think its not illegal anywhere to use someone elses card?

To be clear, it's not illegal to use another person's players card WITH THEIR PERMISSION TO USE THEIR CARD anywhere in the United States INCLUDING PENNSYLVANIA (which some people have questioned)

However, Tribal lands are considered Sovereign Nations. Technically you are stepping onto autonomous land outside the USA (although physically within it and as Americans you don't exactly give up your constitutional rights. This has led to, well, questionable decisions and outcomes on tribal lands)

So speaking for all of America sans the tribal lands, it is definitely not illegal

Tribal lands, probably not but they are autonomous and so one needs to watch out

But I heavily doubt they would have the power to imprison anyone for use of multiple cards. They probably would just confiscate all your valuables including your vehicle (and that's not a joke -- it has happened to AP's in the past

Quote: darkoz

To be clear, it's not illegal to use another person's players card WITH THEIR PERMISSION TO USE THEIR CARD anywhere in the United States INCLUDING PENNSYLVANIA (which some people have questioned)

However, Tribal lands are considered Sovereign Nations. Technically you are stepping onto autonomous land outside the USA (although physically within it and as Americans you don't exactly give up your constitutional rights. This has led to, well, questionable decisions and outcomes on tribal lands)

So speaking for all of America sans the tribal lands, it is definitely not illegal

Tribal lands, probably not but they are autonomous and so one needs to watch out

But I heavily doubt they would have the power to imprison anyone for use of multiple cards. They probably would just confiscate all your valuables including your vehicle (and that's not a joke -- it has happened to AP's in the past

I am not a lawyer, and I know even less about tribal law.

But I am pretty sure Tribal police cannot arrest anyone who is not a member of their tribe. They are basically like MPs from what I have been taught (they really only have Law Enforcment power over military members, just like tribal police only have power over tribal members). I think they can do speeding and parking tickets to non tribal members (like MPs) but no arresting. Somebody will probably correct some of this, but I think generally, tribal police have very limited power over non tribal members.

If you are insinuating some sketchier tribes may do some backroom stuff with their police to intimidate and steal from you if you are running well at their casinos? Or find a bs reason to ticket and tow your car to recoup losses?
It would not suprise me.

I avoid tribal lands like the plague so hopefully I will never find out. Tribes exist to protect their members even to the detriment of outsiders.

Why are so many assumptions made about Tribal Casinos? I don't think Winstar became the largest casino in the world because they're back there taking baseball bats to peoples' ***sacks if they hit a jackpot, or whatever people are assuming goes on there.

They just run casinos, and I've dealt with non-Nevada GCB's. Honestly, I'll take my chances with the Tribal authorities, given the choice. I already know what to expect with the GCB's, and I don't know what to expect with the Tribes, but it can't be worse.

Quote: Gandler

I am not a lawyer, and I know even less about tribal law.

But I am pretty sure Tribal police cannot arrest anyone who is not a member of their tribe. They are basically like MPs from what I have been taught (they really only have Law Enforcment power over military members, just like tribal police only have power over tribal members). I think they can do speeding and parking tickets to non tribal members (like MPs) but no arresting. Somebody will probably correct some of this, but I think generally, tribal police have very limited power over non tribal members.

If you are insinuating some sketchier tribes may do some backroom stuff with their police to intimidate and steal from you if you are running well at their casinos? Or find a bs reason to ticket and tow your car to recoup losses?
It would not suprise me.

I avoid tribal lands like the plague so hopefully I will never find out. Tribes exist to protect their members even to the detriment of outsiders.

Agreed

Here is one story from WOV a few years ago.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/all-other/24500-arrested-for-playing-on-someones-players-card/

What relevance is that as relates tribes? I know someone who got 86'ed and had multiple slot tickets confiscated, gaming keeps saying they'll, "Get back to him." There's apparently only one person in gaming who has anything to do with this particular thing. Four months and counting, no resolution yet. He's talked to the gaming person once, which is approximately one time for every 47 voicemails he has left.

Quote: Gandler

I am not a lawyer, and I know even less about tribal law.

I thank you for not using the accronym

Quote: darkoz

Agreed

Here is one story from WOV a few years ago.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/all-other/24500-arrested-for-playing-on-someones-players-card/

And, that is a prime example of the issue with tribal casino.

When a tribes existence depends on casinos, it encourages tribal police to essentially become protectors of the casino.

You would never be arrested to having multiple player cards at a legit casino, at most you would be banned and maybe some winnings voided.

But when a country (tribal land, just saying country for simplicity) depends on the existence of a casino, the police are going to become revenue protectors.

I have a moral issue with tribal lands. I have an issue with tribal casinos. And, the stories I hear, even if a fraction true, are enough to make me never want to go there even if I had no moral objection to their existence....

Quote: heatmap

I thank you for not using the accronym

I don't know what that means?

Quote: Gandler

And, that is a prime example of the issue with tribal casino.

When a tribes existence depends on casinos, it encourages tribal police to essentially become protectors of the casino.

You would never be arrested to having multiple player cards at a legit casino, at most you would be banned and maybe some winnings voided.

But when a country (tribal land, just saying country for simplicity) depends on the existence of a casino, the police are going to become revenue protectors.

I have a moral issue with tribal lands. I have an issue with tribal casinos. And, the stories I hear, even if a fraction true, are enough to make me never want to go there even if I had no moral objection to their existence....

Do you have an issue with Canadian casinos?

Quote: Mission146

Do you have an issue with Canadian casinos?

I have never gambled in Canada. Never saw the point. The casinos seem far less appealing than casinos in America that I enjoy.

And, yes I know where you are going with this. Canadian Providence's own many of the casinos (Gov casinos). But, I trust the Canadian police more than tribal police (far more). And, yes I know Canada has Indian Casinos (or a Canadnian term for them).

I don't have an issue with Canadian casinos, but if I am in Canada, it's not to gamble, there are better things to do in Canada and America has superior casinos.


Do I think governments should be in the casino buisness generally speaking? No. I am also against state lotteries. It's a tax on the poor. (And states with "lottery machines" IE slot machines owned by the state lottery in gas stations, are just wrong....)

Quote: Gandler

I have never gambled in Canada. Never saw the point. The casinos seem far less appealing than casinos in America that I enjoy.

Me either, but nor have I been there.

Quote:

And, yes I know where you are going with this. Canadian Providence's own many of the casinos (Gov casinos). But, I trust the Canadian police more than tribal police (far more). And, yes I know Canada has Indian Casinos (or a Canadnian term for them).

I don't have an issue with Canadian casinos, but if I am in Canada, it's not to gamble, there are better things to do in Canada and America has superior casinos.


Do I think governments should be in the casino buisness generally speaking? No. I am also against state lotteries. It's a tax on the poor. (And states with "lottery machines" IE slot machines owned by the state lottery in gas stations, are just wrong....)

You are absolutely correct about where I was going with it. It's sovereign land, it's their own country just like anything else is its own country. The subject matter of the thread that Darkoz linked to, for example...it's not illegal in any state that I am aware of, but that does not mean an individual state could not make it illegal, they most certainly could. Therefore, if a Tribe (which is effectively a different country) wants to make it illegal on their land, then they have the right to do so.

I'm in favor of state lotteries, though I think on every ticket machine and at every ticket stand the base return to player and contribution to any progressives (by percentage) should be clearly advertised. I'm also in favor of what you're talking about which I would term, "Parlors," and which are essentially the case in states like Montana, Illinois and West Virginia. Really, I'm in favor of all gambling offerings being legal, but I think that any and all gambling offerings should make percentage returns to player conspicuously known.

Quote: Mission146

Me either, but nor have I been there.



You are absolutely correct about where I was going with it. It's sovereign land, it's their own country just like anything else is its own country. The subject matter of the thread that Darkoz linked to, for example...it's not illegal in any state that I am aware of, but that does not mean an individual state could not make it illegal, they most certainly could. Therefore, if a Tribe (which is effectively a different country) wants to make it illegal on their land, then they have the right to do so.

I'm in favor of state lotteries, though I think on every ticket machine and at every ticket stand the base return to player and contribution to any progressives (by percentage) should be clearly advertised. I'm also in favor of what you're talking about which I would term, "Parlors," and which are essentially the case in states like Montana, Illinois and West Virginia. Really, I'm in favor of all gambling offerings being legal, but I think that any and all gambling offerings should make percentage returns to player conspicuously known.

Yes, but (and maybe one of the many lawyer here can jump in), I don't beleive tribal police can arrest non tribal people for breaking their laws. That is the sketchy part of tribal lands.
And, when tribal members do break the law there is very little recourse (many tribes do not even cooperate with warrants).


My problem with small governments (tribes) running casinos, it is their cash cow, they will protect it by any means necessary. No legit casino would seize a car and detain somebody and seize their possessions for using another's card. But, when a main source of revenue is from a casino (not sole source, but significant portion), protecting it is a priority.

It's like old Cuba (where the mobs ran the casino and controlled the local police). Anytime the police and casinos become protectors of each other it's a recipe for trouble.

Enforcement branches should be watching the casino and cracking down on casino errors, not being an extra layer of security and intimidation for casinos.


Anyway, I am against tribal land, and I am against states making absurd deals with tribes for exclusive rights. So I don't think tribal land should exist, and I certainly don't think states should be making bad deals to prop them up further. And, they certainly won't be getting my money. There are enough legitimate casinos that I trust (loosely speaking) where I prefer to lose my money. I like publicly traded companies that answer to investors and regulators. I don't like tribal monopolies in region X.

Quote: Gandler

Quote: Mission146

Me either, but nor have I been there.



You are absolutely correct about where I was going with it. It's sovereign land, it's their own country just like anything else is its own country. The subject matter of the thread that Darkoz linked to, for example...it's not illegal in any state that I am aware of, but that does not mean an individual state could not make it illegal, they most certainly could. Therefore, if a Tribe (which is effectively a different country) wants to make it illegal on their land, then they have the right to do so.

I'm in favor of state lotteries, though I think on every ticket machine and at every ticket stand the base return to player and contribution to any progressives (by percentage) should be clearly advertised. I'm also in favor of what you're talking about which I would term, "Parlors," and which are essentially the case in states like Montana, Illinois and West Virginia. Really, I'm in favor of all gambling offerings being legal, but I think that any and all gambling offerings should make percentage returns to player conspicuously known.

Yes, but (and maybe one of the many lawyer here can jump in), I don't beleive tribal police can arrest non tribal people for breaking their laws. That is the sketchy part of tribal lands.
And, when tribal members do break the law there is very little recourse (many tribes do not even cooperate with warrants).


My problem with small governments (tribes) running casinos, it is their cash cow, they will protect it by any means necessary. No legit casino would seize a car and detain somebody and seize their possessions for using another's card. But, when a main source of revenue is from a casino (not sole source, but significant portion), protecting it is a priority.

It's like old Cuba (where the mobs ran the casino and controlled the local police). Anytime the police and casinos become protectors of each other it's a recipe for trouble.

Enforcement branches should be watching the casino and cracking down on casino errors, not being an extra layer of security and intimidation for casinos.


Anyway, I am against tribal land, and I am against states making absurd deals with tribes for exclusive rights. So I don't think tribal land should exist, and I certainly don't think states should be making bad deals to prop them up further. And, they certainly won't be getting my money. There are enough legitimate casinos that I trust (loosely speaking) where I prefer to lose my money. I like publicly traded companies that answer to investors and regulators. I don't like tribal monopolies in region X.

I believe if crimes are committed on tribal land by non-tribal members the tribal police affect a type of citizen arrest where they hold the perpetrator until state authorities arrive for custodial purposes.

The Tribe would become witnesses in city or state court and the non-tribal defendant faces traditional penalties under the law

But in any civil action cases the tribal community can handle the case on their own with their own court system

That's the way I understand it to work

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Gandler

Quote: Mission146

Me either, but nor have I been there.



You are absolutely correct about where I was going with it. It's sovereign land, it's their own country just like anything else is its own country. The subject matter of the thread that Darkoz linked to, for example...it's not illegal in any state that I am aware of, but that does not mean an individual state could not make it illegal, they most certainly could. Therefore, if a Tribe (which is effectively a different country) wants to make it illegal on their land, then they have the right to do so.

I'm in favor of state lotteries, though I think on every ticket machine and at every ticket stand the base return to player and contribution to any progressives (by percentage) should be clearly advertised. I'm also in favor of what you're talking about which I would term, "Parlors," and which are essentially the case in states like Montana, Illinois and West Virginia. Really, I'm in favor of all gambling offerings being legal, but I think that any and all gambling offerings should make percentage returns to player conspicuously known.

Yes, but (and maybe one of the many lawyer here can jump in), I don't beleive tribal police can arrest non tribal people for breaking their laws. That is the sketchy part of tribal lands.
And, when tribal members do break the law there is very little recourse (many tribes do not even cooperate with warrants).


My problem with small governments (tribes) running casinos, it is their cash cow, they will protect it by any means necessary. No legit casino would seize a car and detain somebody and seize their possessions for using another's card. But, when a main source of revenue is from a casino (not sole source, but significant portion), protecting it is a priority.

It's like old Cuba (where the mobs ran the casino and controlled the local police). Anytime the police and casinos become protectors of each other it's a recipe for trouble.

Enforcement branches should be watching the casino and cracking down on casino errors, not being an extra layer of security and intimidation for casinos.


Anyway, I am against tribal land, and I am against states making absurd deals with tribes for exclusive rights. So I don't think tribal land should exist, and I certainly don't think states should be making bad deals to prop them up further. And, they certainly won't be getting my money. There are enough legitimate casinos that I trust (loosely speaking) where I prefer to lose my money. I like publicly traded companies that answer to investors and regulators. I don't like tribal monopolies in region X.

I believe if crimes are committed on tribal land by non-tribal members the tribal police affect a type of citizen arrest where they hold the perpetrator until state authorities arrive for custodial purposes.

The Tribe would become witnesses in city or state court and the non-tribal defendant faces traditional penalties under the law

But in any civil action cases the tribal community can handle the case on their own with their own court system

That's the way I understand it to work

That could be true. It sounds right.

I know if a tribal member commits a crime or has warrants tribal police and governments will almost never cooperate making it hard to arrest tribal criminals as long as they stay in tribal boundries (another one of many issues with tribal lands).


It's just a sketchy complicated arrangement that should not exist in 2020.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliphant_v._Suquamish_Indian_Tribe

That should settle it.

Non-tribal members cannot be arrested for crimes on tribal land.

Actually led a rise in rapes of Indian women by non-tribal men who were immune to prosecution (disgusting)

That was fixed in 2013 by a Congressional act giving the tribes some means to police against rape issues

Otherwise, non-members are immune from prosecution (unless the state government wishes to prosecute of course)

Quote: Gandler

That could be true. It sounds right.

I know if a tribal member commits a crime or has warrants tribal police and governments will almost never cooperate making it hard to arrest tribal criminals as long as they stay in tribal boundries (another one of many issues with tribal lands).


It's just a sketchy complicated arrangement that should not exist in 2020.

You mean if they stay in their own country?

Quote: Gandler

Yes, but (and maybe one of the many lawyer here can jump in), I don't beleive tribal police can arrest non tribal people for breaking their laws. That is the sketchy part of tribal lands.
And, when tribal members do break the law there is very little recourse (many tribes do not even cooperate with warrants).


My problem with small governments (tribes) running casinos, it is their cash cow, they will protect it by any means necessary. No legit casino would seize a car and detain somebody and seize their possessions for using another's card. But, when a main source of revenue is from a casino (not sole source, but significant portion), protecting it is a priority.

I don't know, they told me I was committing wire fraud and that I would get to wait to have the police come along and do something with me if I refused to present my ID to them (a state regulated casino). Then you have the dude with the slot tickets confiscated, that's tickets plural, who has been able to talk to the only appropriate gaming person in that state once in four months after having to leave countless voicemails both before and after.

Quote:

It's like old Cuba (where the mobs ran the casino and controlled the local police). Anytime the police and casinos become protectors of each other it's a recipe for trouble.

Enforcement branches should be watching the casino and cracking down on casino errors, not being an extra layer of security and intimidation for casinos.


Anyway, I am against tribal land, and I am against states making absurd deals with tribes for exclusive rights. So I don't think tribal land should exist, and I certainly don't think states should be making bad deals to prop them up further. And, they certainly won't be getting my money. There are enough legitimate casinos that I trust (loosely speaking) where I prefer to lose my money. I like publicly traded companies that answer to investors and regulators. I don't like tribal monopolies in region X.

Gaming already does protect the casinos, at least financially. They ruled AGAINST Phil Ivey in actual courts. Twice. Because a casino was stupid enough to believe that a professional poker player was just there to gamble and gave him the easiest edge-sorting conditions possible. I would say that they already are an extra layer of security for casinos (at least when it comes to advantage players) in regulated environments.

You then look at Colorado, the state that will allow for you to be arrested, barred from the casino and fined by the state for accidentally putting your ticket in on top of a machine that has a couple bucks in credits on that. The state is actually imposing a fine in that instance. Casino staff threatens players with all sorts of charges that do not fit any legal definition of the word whatsoever, and if a player were to complain to gaming about this activity and be able to prove it, what would happen? Exactly nothing. Why? Because they make the state money. The relationship with any state with Commercial Gambling and any Tribe to its Government is not THAT much different.

And, again, I would argue that there is more of a monopoly on land gaming properties in the State of Ohio than there could ever hope to be in Oklahoma. You have 30-some tribes, for one thing. Ohio has four casinos.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to do the thing that was discussed in the Thread Darkoz linked to in a Tribal Casino, but aside from that, I'm no more concerned about going into those than I would be anywhere else.

Quote: Mission146

You mean if they stay in their own country?

It should not be their country.

Quote: Mission146

I don't know, they told me I was committing wire fraud and that I would get to wait to have the police come along and do something with me if I refused to present my ID to them (a state regulated casino). Then you have the dude with the slot tickets confiscated, that's tickets plural, who has been able to talk to the only appropriate gaming person in that state once in four months after having to leave countless voicemails both before and after.



Gaming already does protect the casinos, at least financially. They ruled AGAINST Phil Ivey in actual courts. Twice. Because a casino was stupid enough to believe that a professional poker player was just there to gamble and gave him the easiest edge-sorting conditions possible. I would say that they already are an extra layer of security for casinos (at least when it comes to advantage players) in regulated environments.

You then look at Colorado, the state that will allow for you to be arrested, barred from the casino and fined by the state for accidentally putting your ticket in on top of a machine that has a couple bucks in credits on that. The state is actually imposing a fine in that instance. Casino staff threatens players with all sorts of charges that do not fit any legal definition of the word whatsoever, and if a player were to complain to gaming about this activity and be able to prove it, what would happen? Exactly nothing. Why? Because they make the state money. The relationship with any state with Commercial Gambling and any Tribe to its Government is not THAT much different.

And, again, I would argue that there is more of a monopoly on land gaming properties in the State of Ohio than there could ever hope to be in Oklahoma. You have 30-some tribes, for one thing. Ohio has four casinos.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to do the thing that was discussed in the Thread Darkoz linked to in a Tribal Casino, but aside from that, I'm no more concerned about going into those than I would be anywhere else.

Those were civil cases against Ivey heard by a court (not a gaming commission). The borgata is not stuffing him into a mobile home "police station" and forcing him to hand over all of his possessions and seizing his car. They went through a civil process to recoup losses that were determined to be in violation. I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation of that case. But, it was all public record out in the open.

As for Ohio vs Oklahoma, I would rather have four casinos than 30+.

States fine casinos constantly for violations. The idea that states ignore casino wrongdoing is just wrong.

Yes, many bad casinos employees make empty threats, but how many actually stuff them in a backroom in modern times? Its virtually unheard of. It's a big scandal when security touches somebody to escort them out....

Again, I don't think tribal lands should exist, I dont think states should give them exclusive deals. Even if I I morally supported the existence of tribes, I would not go to their casinos because of the stories. Just like I would not go to a casino with mob ties.

Quote: Gandler

Those were civil cases against Ivey heard by a court (not a gaming commission). The borgata is not stuffing him into a mobile home "police station" and forcing him to hand over all of his possessions and seizing his car. They went through a civil process to recoup losses that were determined to be in violation. I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation of that case. But, it was all public record out in the open.

As for Ohio vs Oklahoma, I would rather have four casinos than 30+.

States fine casinos constantly for violations. The idea that states ignore casino wrongdoing is just wrong.

Yes, many bad casinos employees make empty threats, but how many actually stuff them in a backroom in modern times? Its virtually unheard of. It's a big scandal when security touches somebody to escort them out....

Again, I don't think tribal lands should exist, I dont think states should give them exclusive deals. Even if I I morally supported the existence of tribes, I would not go to their casinos because of the stories. Just like I would not go to a casino with mob ties.

That’s my point, it goes all the way to the courts and he loses. The court system, for the most part, doesn’t know jack about gambling, for one thing. Teliot even testified in Ivey’s favor, I believe. Point being that the casinos have Government protection in their pocket all the way to the top when it comes right down to it. The player must be doing something bad. It’s not the casino staff’s fault for being a bunch of idiots in that particular instance.

I’ll take Oklahoma, better returns, as far as I can tell. Not only that, but Ohio gaming is completely apathetic when it comes to anything player related. Additionally, it seems like I am more likely, in general, to advocate for more available forms of gambling (types and locations) than you are, which is fine. Nothing wrong with us disagreeing on the matter. You have one of the most populated states and only four locations in the entire state that can have tables or video poker, personally, that makes no sense to me. Barely more than ten total (when you include racinos) that can have anything close to real machine gaming.

The states don’t always ignore wrongdoing. It’s not like the casinos are likely to kick the crap out of somebody and get away with it anymore, I’m just saying the states could almost all go a lot further in terms of player rights, protections and information access, such as percentage returns being put on all machines. Any state could make that a law anytime it wants to. They won’t, because it would likely not have a positive effect on state revenues, but they could.

I don’t care if states give them exclusive deals or not. If they want to legalize Commercial Casinos, that’s fine, but then the tribes get to do whatever they want and don’t have to pay the state anything or some very small percentage. The market can then decide whether tribal gambling or commercial gambling is better, or more likely, the market will decide both are fine.

Quote: Mission146

That’s my point, it goes all the way to the courts and he loses. The court system, for the most part, doesn’t know jack about gambling, for one thing. Teliot even testified in Ivey’s favor, I believe. Point being that the casinos have Government protection in their pocket all the way to the top when it comes right down to it. The player must be doing something bad. It’s not the casino staff’s fault for being a bunch of idiots in that particular instance.

I’ll take Oklahoma, better returns, as far as I can tell. Not only that, but Ohio gaming is completely apathetic when it comes to anything player related. Additionally, it seems like I am more likely, in general, to advocate for more available forms of gambling (types and locations) than you are, which is fine. Nothing wrong with us disagreeing on the matter. You have one of the most populated states and only four locations in the entire state that can have tables or video poker, personally, that makes no sense to me. Barely more than ten total (when you include racinos) that can have anything close to real machine gaming.

The states don’t always ignore wrongdoing. It’s not like the casinos are likely to kick the crap out of somebody and get away with it anymore, I’m just saying the states could almost all go a lot further in terms of player rights, protections and information access, such as percentage returns being put on all machines. Any state could make that a law anytime it wants to. They won’t, because it would likely not have a positive effect on state revenues, but they could.

I don’t care if states give them exclusive deals or not. If they want to legalize Commercial Casinos, that’s fine, but then the tribes get to do whatever they want and don’t have to pay the state anything or some very small percentage. The market can then decide whether tribal gambling or commercial gambling is better, or more likely, the market will decide both are fine.

Except in states where Tribal lands are granted the sole ability to have casinos.

I guess the first thing would be that any such arrangement is the fault of the state agreeing to it, not the fault of the tribes. Secondly, the states could just violate the compact, authorize Commercial Casinos, then the tribes can continue to operate, but no longer need to pay the state anything.

It’s not like the two can’t co-exist. They do in New York.

Added: And Michigan. I think a few others.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tringlomane

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You won 13k dollars tax free in a month? Pics??? Only vulturing? I wish I've won that in the last 6 years part-time.

Last big hit in April at M Resort. Didn't post the trip, and the last nine trips to Vegas, partly thanks to EvenBob.

Since it was tax-free (not jackpots), why would he take pics?

I don't vulture but I saw someone who does wait about 15 minutes for a player to get up from a vulturable machine. When the vulture had his chance he wound up winning close to $200.

Repeated on a daily basis, hour upon hour it adds up

$13,000 in a month is not difficult to believe.

Trust me I’m not doing that lol. I couldn’t be bothered. I’m in and out of the casino in 30-60 mins depending on some of the plays take longer to play off. A couple of my plays can take 30 mins for one play, that’s all I’ll say. I have about 40-50 machines to check in each casino.

Also DO I’m in Canada so everything is tax free in gambling.

I do have pictures that I like to take of any big hits but they are only posted on an anonymous twitter account because no offence to anyone but I’m not in the business of giving away my plays (that I didn’t figure out on my own lol).

Also I’m up 2k more since posting that 13k comment the other day. Easy money!

Quote: Mission146

I guess the first thing would be that any such arrangement is the fault of the state agreeing to it, not the fault of the tribes. Secondly, the states could just violate the compact, authorize Commercial Casinos, then the tribes can continue to operate, but no longer need to pay the state anything.

It’s not like the two can’t co-exist. They do in New York.

Added: And Michigan. I think a few others.

They do. It just sounds like OK, has an extra terrible deal.

But, like I said I am against tribal land existing at all, so its more of a philosophical issue for me.

Quote: Mission146

I guess the first thing would be that any such arrangement is the fault of the state agreeing to it, not the fault of the tribes. Secondly, the states could just violate the compact, authorize Commercial Casinos, then the tribes can continue to operate, but no longer need to pay the state anything.

It’s not like the two can’t co-exist. They do in New York.

Added: And Michigan. I think a few others.

They can not only co-exist but share property

In PA both wind Creek Bethlehem and Mohegan sun Poconos are tribal owned but on state land and operate as commercial gaming vs tribal gaming. If you were to get falsely imprisoned in those two casinos you have all legal recourse as any traditional commercial casino

Quote: darkoz

They can not only co-exist but share property

In PA both wind Creek Bethlehem and Mohegan sun Poconos are tribal owned but on state land and operate as commercial gaming vs tribal gaming. If you were to get falsely imprisoned in those two casinos you have all legal recourse as any traditional commercial casino

Yes, I believe those are both state licensed casinos being operated by the tribes. They are not Native American casinos.