Dyvan13
Dyvan13
Joined: May 27, 2016
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January 31st, 2020 at 4:34:54 PM permalink
Good afternoon. I have a question about using another person's player's card in a tribal casino. I have found a decent promotion that can lead to significant free play, but it'll take more than 1 player's card to make it really worthwhile;

The problem is that at this casino, any payout over $399.99 or causes a hand pay (although no tax forms are presented and no tax withheld, you still have to sign and they document the player and card#).

I would play NSU 5-coin @1.25 total bet per hand, which would mean my only hand-pay situation would be a natural royal. How much of a stink do you think if I hit it using another player's card? I could give them a decent cover story. I'd be using my girlfriend's card and could make an excuse like "OH, she couldn't come today and had free play on her card so she let me use it". Do you think this would fly? And if so, for how long?

What about my brother's card? We have the same last name, so it might give more viable credence to the story


I could just short-coin and play 4 coins, or play a different nickel machine 7 coins (when the 10 coin feature is enabled). The would knock my payback in the 98.5% range though, which would eat up TONS of EV.

What is the worst case scenario likely to happen? They stiff me on a measly $1K jackpot? (It is tribal land though....)

Thank you, this forum is great!
Mission146
Mission146
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Dyvan13
January 31st, 2020 at 5:12:05 PM permalink
(Quotes intentionally sectioned for the purpose of offering specific responses)

Quote: Dyvan13

Good afternoon. I have a question about using another person's player's card in a tribal casino. I have found a decent promotion that can lead to significant free play, but it'll take more than 1 player's card to make it really worthwhile;

The problem is that at this casino, any payout over $399.99 or causes a hand pay (although no tax forms are presented and no tax withheld, you still have to sign and they document the player and card#).



Good evening, in my case, thanks for the kind greeting!

Quote:

I would play NSU 5-coin @1.25 total bet per hand, which would mean my only hand-pay situation would be a natural royal. How much of a stink do you think if I hit it using another player's card? I could give them a decent cover story. I'd be using my girlfriend's card and could make an excuse like "OH, she couldn't come today and had free play on her card so she let me use it". Do you think this would fly? And if so, for how long?

What about my brother's card? We have the same last name, so it might give more viable credence to the story



The first thing is that any situation that would cause you to have multiple royals would result in a handpay, so this would not just pertain to dealt royals. If you were to have a four-to-a-royal situation and hit at least two of them, then that event would put you at a minimum of $400 and would also be a hand pay. That would happen on roughly 1 in 236 (or so) four-to-a-royal draws. Funny thing about that is that it makes that scenario almost as likely as is getting a dealt royal, given the frequency of four to a royal draws.

I would definitely not lead with that you were using free play on someone else's card. If I were going to have any preset excuse, mine would be that you carry around your girlfriend (or brother's) players club card because you guys often go to the casino together, and if one person leaves a card in the machine, the other person has one of their cards handy. You just happened to put in the wrong card by mistake. I definitely wouldn't go out of your way to mention picking up free play on someone else's card, let them figure that out for themselves if that's what happens.

Generally speaking, I would think you could probably get away with it once, but it depends on quite a few different factors. Some casinos crack down on the use of multiple players cards harder than others and there are a few casinos (if it's your GF's card) that basically wouldn't even care.

Quote:

I could just short-coin and play 4 coins, or play a different nickel machine 7 coins (when the 10 coin feature is enabled). The would knock my payback in the 98.5% range though, which would eat up TONS of EV.

What is the worst case scenario likely to happen? They stiff me on a measly $1K jackpot? (It is tribal land though....)

Thank you, this forum is great!



I would not be inclined to cut into your ER so dramatically over the small probability of a dealt royal flush. If you get dealt four-to-a-royal and want to do so out of an overabundance of caution, you could always just make the second-best hold. While it kills your return for that hand, the situation is rare enough that it's not going to hurt you as badly as short-coining the royal entirely. The bad hold costs you roughly nineteen units (read: total bets) in expectation, but short-coining the royal entirely is going to cost you more than that in expectation, I believe. I think the odds of getting a four-to-a-royal draw are roughly 1/2800, let's figure it out:

(47*5*4)/nCr(52,5) = 0.0003616831347924 1/0.0003616831347924 = Roughly 1 in 2764.85

Okay, so given that, you are sacrificing about 19 bets worth every 2765 hands, which is less than 1%. It's about 0.6872% and I think the 19 bets worth of difference making the second best hold (as opposed to best) is rounding up quite a bit. For example, holding three-to-a-royal (and tossing a royal card) is not as bad if you also have a dealt five card flush and just keep the flush, or if you keep a dealt straight flush or straight flush draw as opposed to just keeping three royal cards. You could also be holding a pair as opposed to the royal draw which is better than the three to a royal hold with the royal impossible.

Anyway, while tossing that would both A.) Suck and B.) Be an overabundance of caution, it wouldn't be as bad as completely short-coining the royal.

I don't know whether or not they would stiff you on the jackpot, though I tend to doubt it. They would maybe have the person to whom the card belongs have to come claim it? I don't really know. Maybe they would stiff you. You're stiffing yourself by short-coining anyway.

I guess you'll just have to come up with some sort of probability that happens and what you consider the loss in value to be compared to short-coining and making such an event not possible.
Vultures can't be choosers.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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Foragertringlomane
January 31st, 2020 at 6:27:43 PM permalink
Quote: Dyvan13

I have a question about using another person's player's card in a tribal casino.

The moment I hear "tribal casino" I think of tribal police, tribal jail. tribal lawyers, tribal judge and that is all I need.
bobbartop
bobbartop
Joined: Mar 15, 2016
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January 31st, 2020 at 9:25:51 PM permalink
Quote: Dyvan13

Good afternoon. I have a question about using another person's player's card in a tribal casino. I have found a decent promotion that can lead to significant free play, but it'll take more than 1 player's card to make it really worthwhile;

The problem is that at this casino, any payout over $399.99 or causes a hand pay (although no tax forms are presented and no tax withheld, you still have to sign and they document the player and card#).

I would play NSU 5-coin @1.25 total bet per hand, which would mean my only hand-pay situation would be a natural royal. How much of a stink do you think if I hit it using another player's card? I could give them a decent cover story. I'd be using my girlfriend's card and could make an excuse like "OH, she couldn't come today and had free play on her card so she let me use it". Do you think this would fly? And if so, for how long?

What about my brother's card? We have the same last name, so it might give more viable credence to the story


I could just short-coin and play 4 coins, or play a different nickel machine 7 coins (when the 10 coin feature is enabled). The would knock my payback in the 98.5% range though, which would eat up TONS of EV.

What is the worst case scenario likely to happen? They stiff me on a measly $1K jackpot? (It is tribal land though....)

Thank you, this forum is great!




Don't do it. Quit scammin or pay the consequences.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
heatmap
heatmap
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tringlomane
January 31st, 2020 at 11:37:15 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

The moment I hear "tribal casino" I think of tribal police, tribal jail. tribal lawyers, tribal judge and that is all I need.



i had almost this exact post typed out and then scrapped it
darkoz
darkoz 
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February 1st, 2020 at 2:09:05 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

Don't do it. Quit scammin or pay the consequences.



Scamming is illegal. Using other players cards with permission of the cardholders is not illegal, therefore not a scam.

In another thread we are discussing how casinos feel vulturing Ultimate X multipliers is a cheat move and the work of scammers

Don't fall into the ugly casino trap of labeling every AP move a scam.

That said, the tribal lands autonomy is something to be wary of. However the biggest penalty would be refusal of payment. They won't throw him into tribal land prison I am pretty certain.

As long as he can prove his people gave him permission to use the cards
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
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February 1st, 2020 at 4:00:49 AM permalink
My wife and I play on each other's card all the time. At MLife casinos we have the same account number. It always makes me nervous to play bigger than quarters on my wife's card. If I hit a hand pay, I'm not sure I would get paid. I believe they would pay me as long as they have a name and SS number. I'm sure our free play is not big enough for them to be that concerned about.

You are talking about doing something that in my opinion is scamming the casino. Tribal casinos make all the rules, so you don't know what the consequences may be. There are many ways you can "scam" an edge. If the casino makes an error in your favor, would you tell them about it? Scalping left over multipliers in my opinion is garbage picking. It's the same as picking tickets off the floor or harvesting change from an ATM. I once found a $100 bill under my chair in a casino. I had no idea who left it there. I waited around and there was no one near me, so I played it. I was playing with an edge. It didn't make me feel like a winner.
FleaStiff
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tringlomane
February 1st, 2020 at 4:53:47 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Scamming is illegal. Using other players cards with permission of the cardholders is not illegal, therefore not a scam.
Don't fall into the ugly casino trap of labeling every AP move a scam.
That said, the tribal lands autonomy is something to be wary of. However the biggest penalty would be refusal of payment. They won't throw him into tribal land prison I am pretty certain.

If your certainty turns out to have been misplaced, will you serve his ten days?
Never be wary of tribal land sovereignty, be scared of it.
Mission146
Mission146
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Forager
February 1st, 2020 at 5:51:33 AM permalink
Quote: SingleCoinVP

My wife and I play on each other's card all the time. At MLife casinos we have the same account number. It always makes me nervous to play bigger than quarters on my wife's card. If I hit a hand pay, I'm not sure I would get paid. I believe they would pay me as long as they have a name and SS number. I'm sure our free play is not big enough for them to be that concerned about.

You are talking about doing something that in my opinion is scamming the casino. Tribal casinos make all the rules, so you don't know what the consequences may be. There are many ways you can "scam" an edge. If the casino makes an error in your favor, would you tell them about it? Scalping left over multipliers in my opinion is garbage picking. It's the same as picking tickets off the floor or harvesting change from an ATM. I once found a $100 bill under my chair in a casino. I had no idea who left it there. I waited around and there was no one near me, so I played it. I was playing with an edge. It didn't make me feel like a winner.



I donít see how they wouldnít pay you if theyíre letting you share an account number in the first place. Some casinos do let husbands and wives share an account.

As far as multipliers go, whatís the difference between a vulture playing multipliers that were put there by someone else as opposed to some other player doing it? The only difference is the vulture is going to cash out when no longer at any advantage.

Itís posts like this one that just read as though there is supposed to be something generally wrong with playing at an advantage. Believe it or not, not everyone goes into a casino with the intention of losing money.

Also, finding someone elseís $100 that they dropped and playing it is not considered playing with an edge. The actual gambling (playing it) is no more or less -EV than as if it had been your own hundred. I would also caution that such an action would constitute straight theft in a few states: Colorado and Pennsylvania for sure.
Vultures can't be choosers.
SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
Joined: Aug 31, 2019
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February 1st, 2020 at 7:06:17 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Itís posts like this one that just read as though there is supposed to be something generally wrong with playing at an advantage. Believe it or not, not everyone goes into a casino with the intention of losing money.

I do not believe there is anything wrong with playing with an advantage. How, when and where you gain that advantage brings up some interesting questions. In his book "Million Dollar Video Poker", Bob Dancer stated he gained an advantage through a casino error in the comp payout. Should he have informed the casino of the error? If he was being paid by a casino as a consultant and found the same error, would he inform the casino or call an AP? When is gaining an edge wrong or is it always right?
Last edited by: SingleCoinVP on Feb 1, 2020

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