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SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
Joined: Aug 31, 2019
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December 6th, 2019 at 7:54:02 AM permalink
Recently posted on this forum.

Accurate play + sufficiently high return on Paytable + Mailer/Freeplay + Promos + Etc., = long term winner. Bobbartop 12/4/2019

I am in total agreement with this statement. So, why are there so few long term video poker winners? Lack of opportunity, skill, motivation and discipline top the list. Physical disabilities can limit results. Bankroll limitations can be eased by playing low variance games. If a particular promo drawing occurs at midnight, are you going to be there when your name is called? This post is not about making excuses for losing.

Today's video poker players have access to better information than they had twenty years ago. Thanks to experts, they have learned how to calculate odds and the value of comps. Computer software has been available for some time allowing players to develop the skill to play near computer perfect. These developments have reduced the casino's profit from video poker games significantly. To protect their profits, casinos have reduced the odds and comps on video poker games.

At my home casino, one of the largest in the South, video poker is not eligible for bonus points and the point and free play accumulation rate is less than traditional slots. Currently, the average video poker game at my casino has about a 2-3% house edge not counting errors. If you wish to move up to $25 a hand, you can play with a 1% house edge. A typical player plays a minimum of 500 hands an hour. This means a $5 player runs at least $12,500 an hour through the machines. Even though the house edge is smaller, the larger coin-in allows the casino to profit from these players. The few players who beat them are not numerous enough to hurt their bottom line. If they do, the casino can reduce their comps or ban them entirely.

When you play overall negative casino games, you are paying to play. If you do, the most significant factor influencing your results is total coin-in. Out of every dollar you put into a negative game, a portion goes to the casino. If the game has a 3% house edge and you play one quarter per hand, the long term cost with perfect play is about 3/4 of a cent per hand. If you step up to five quarters with a 2% house edge, the casino's profit is now 2 1/2 cents per hand. The formula above says we must add back the comps, free play and incentives. Obviously, they will be greater as your coin-in increases. If the comps have no value to you, the smaller the coin-in the less your cost to play.

Playing single coin comes with significant disadvantages. The only real advantage is more seat time for a given amount of money. You will see more jackpots, but they will be smaller. If you play single coin quarters, the payout for a royal flush is reduced from $1,000 to $62.50. For most quarter players, the dream of walking out with a $1,000 jackpot is the ultimate goal. Without that goal, it removes much of the enjoyment from playing the game. A royal flush is a rare event. However, the anticipation of hitting a $1,000 royal has value even if it doesn't happen. So much so that most players that play negative games should not play single coin even though they will lose less long term.

I am always experimenting with ways to reduce this cost. Currently, I am trying a new tactic in my own play. Instead of playing single coin one day a week, I am playing max coins one day a month. It could take longer to experience a royal flush, but it will be worth sixteen times more. Over Christmas we will be in South Florida for our annual family get together. The Hard Rock is comping our rooms saving us $250 a night. It could cost three times that much to stay at the Hard Rock over Christmas. $250 a night is the price at a South Florida Hampton Inn. I expect they'll throw in some points for food and drinks too. Comments welcome.
Last edited by: SingleCoinVP on Dec 6, 2019
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 145
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December 6th, 2019 at 8:14:28 AM permalink
Quote: SingleCoinVP

Recently posted on this forum.

Accurate play + sufficiently high return on Paytable + Mailer/Freeplay + Promos + Etc., = long term winner. Bobbartop 12/4/2019

I am in total agreement with this statement. So, why are there so few long term video poker winners? Lack of opportunity, skill, motivation and discipline top the list. Physical disabilities can limit results. Bankroll limitations can be eased by playing low variance games. If a particular promo drawing occurs at midnight, are you going to be there when your name is called? This post is not about making excuses for losing.

Today's video poker players have access to better information than they had twenty years ago. Thanks to experts, they have learned how to calculate odds and the value of comps. Computer software has been available for some time allowing players to develop the skill to play near computer perfect. These developments have reduced the casino's profit from video poker games significantly.
To protect their profits, casinos have reduced the odds and comps on video poker games.

At my home casino, one of the largest in the South, video poker is not eligible for bonus points and the point and free play accumulation rate is less than traditional slots. Currently, the average video poker game at my casino has about a 2-3% house edge not counting errors. If you wish to move up to $25 a hand, you can play with a 1% house edge. A typical player plays a minimum of 500 hands an hour. This means a $5 player runs at least $12,500 an hour through the machines. Even though the house edge is smaller, the larger coin-in allows the casino to profit from these players. The few players who beat them are not numerous enough to hurt their bottom line. If they do, the casino either reduces their comps or bans them entirely.

When you play overall negative casino games, you are paying to play. If you do, the most significant factor influencing your results is total coin-in. Out of every dollar you put into a negative game, a portion goes to the casino. If the game has a 3% house edge and you play one quarter per hand, the long term cost with perfect play is about 3/4 of a cent per hand. If you step up to five quarters with a 2% house edge, the casino's profit is now 2 1/2 cents per hand. The formula above says we must add back the comps, free play and incentives. Obviously, they will be greater as your coin-in increases. If the comps have no value to you, the smaller the coin-in the less your cost to play.

Playing single coin comes with significant disadvantages. The only real advantage is more seat time for a given amount of money. You will see more jackpots, but they will be smaller. If you play single coin quarters, the payout for a royal flush is reduced from $1,000 to $62.50. For most quarter players, the dream of walking out with a $1,000 jackpot is the ultimate goal. Without that goal, it removes much of the enjoyment from playing the game. A royal flush is a rare event. However, the anticipation of hitting a $1,000 royal has value even if it doesn't happen. So much so that most players that play negative games should not play single coin even though they will lose less long term.

I am always experimenting with ways to reduce this cost. Currently, I am trying a new tactic in my own play. Instead of playing single coin one day a week, I am playing max coins one day a month. It could take longer to experience a royal flush, but it will be worth sixteen times more. Over Christmas we will be in South Florida for our annual family get together. The Hard Rock is comping our rooms saving us $250 a night. It could cost three times that much to stay at the Hard Rock over Christmas. $250 a night is the price at a South Florida Hampton Inn. I expect they'll throw in some points for food and drinks too. Comments welcome.

What's the question?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
Joined: Aug 31, 2019
  • Threads: 10
  • Posts: 253
December 6th, 2019 at 8:21:58 AM permalink
No question. I believe my choice of a forum name may be leading some members to think I am advocating single coin play. Not true. It has a place where bankroll is limited. Lots of retirees play single coin quarters at my casino. I think they're smart to do this as long as they stick to it. In my own case, lack of discipline has been my greatest downfall. I'm getting better.

If we limit this forum to only discussions of Advantage Play, we leave out 99% of the players.
billryan
billryan 
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 171
  • Posts: 9498
December 6th, 2019 at 8:26:56 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Recently posted on this forum.

Accurate play + sufficiently high return on Paytable + Mailer/Freeplay + Promos + Etc., = long term winner. Bobbartop 12/4/2019

I am in total agreement with this statement. So, why are there so few long term video poker winners? Lack of opportunity, skill, motivation and discipline top the list. Physical disabilities can limit results. Bankroll limitations can be eased by playing low variance games. If a particular promo drawing occurs at midnight, are you going to be there when your name is called? This post is not about making excuses for losing.

Today's video poker players have access to better information than they had twenty years ago. Thanks to experts, they have learned how to calculate odds and the value of comps. Computer software has been available for some time allowing players to develop the skill to play near computer perfect. These developments have reduced the casino's profit from video poker games significantly.
To protect their profits, casinos have reduced the odds and comps on video poker games.

At my home casino, one of the largest in the South, video poker is not eligible for bonus points and the point and free play accumulation rate is less than traditional slots. Currently, the average video poker game at my casino has about a 2-3% house edge not counting errors. If you wish to move up to $25 a hand, you can play with a 1% house edge. A typical player plays a minimum of 500 hands an hour. This means a $5 player runs at least $12,500 an hour through the machines. Even though the house edge is smaller, the larger coin-in allows the casino to profit from these players. The few players who beat them are not numerous enough to hurt their bottom line. If they do, the casino either reduces their comps or bans them entirely.

When you play overall negative casino games, you are paying to play. If you do, the most significant factor influencing your results is total coin-in. Out of every dollar you put into a negative game, a portion goes to the casino. If the game has a 3% house edge and you play one quarter per hand, the long term cost with perfect play is about 3/4 of a cent per hand. If you step up to five quarters with a 2% house edge, the casino's profit is now 2 1/2 cents per hand. The formula above says we must add back the comps, free play and incentives. Obviously, they will be greater as your coin-in increases. If the comps have no value to you, the smaller the coin-in the less your cost to play.

Playing single coin comes with significant disadvantages. The only real advantage is more seat time for a given amount of money. You will see more jackpots, but they will be smaller. If you play single coin quarters, the payout for a royal flush is reduced from $1,000 to $62.50. For most quarter players, the dream of walking out with a $1,000 jackpot is the ultimate goal. Without that goal, it removes much of the enjoyment from playing the game. A royal flush is a rare event. However, the anticipation of hitting a $1,000 royal has value even if it doesn't happen. So much so that most players that play negative games should not play single coin even though they will lose less long term.

I am always experimenting with ways to reduce this cost. Currently, I am trying a new tactic in my own play. Instead of playing single coin one day a week, I am playing max coins one day a month. It could take longer to experience a royal flush, but it will be worth sixteen times more. Over Christmas we will be in South Florida for our annual family get together. The Hard Rock is comping our rooms saving us $250 a night. It could cost three times that much to stay at the Hard Rock over Christmas. $250 a night is the price at a South Florida Hampton Inn. I expect they'll throw in some points for food and drinks too. Comments welcome.

What's the question?



Who is on First?
unJon
unJon 
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 1812
December 6th, 2019 at 8:28:17 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Recently posted on this forum.

Accurate play + sufficiently high return on Paytable + Mailer/Freeplay + Promos + Etc., = long term winner. Bobbartop 12/4/2019

I am in total agreement with this statement. So, why are there so few long term video poker winners? Lack of opportunity, skill, motivation and discipline top the list. Physical disabilities can limit results. Bankroll limitations can be eased by playing low variance games. If a particular promo drawing occurs at midnight, are you going to be there when your name is called? This post is not about making excuses for losing.

Today's video poker players have access to better information than they had twenty years ago. Thanks to experts, they have learned how to calculate odds and the value of comps. Computer software has been available for some time allowing players to develop the skill to play near computer perfect. These developments have reduced the casino's profit from video poker games significantly.
To protect their profits, casinos have reduced the odds and comps on video poker games.

At my home casino, one of the largest in the South, video poker is not eligible for bonus points and the point and free play accumulation rate is less than traditional slots. Currently, the average video poker game at my casino has about a 2-3% house edge not counting errors. If you wish to move up to $25 a hand, you can play with a 1% house edge. A typical player plays a minimum of 500 hands an hour. This means a $5 player runs at least $12,500 an hour through the machines. Even though the house edge is smaller, the larger coin-in allows the casino to profit from these players. The few players who beat them are not numerous enough to hurt their bottom line. If they do, the casino either reduces their comps or bans them entirely.

When you play overall negative casino games, you are paying to play. If you do, the most significant factor influencing your results is total coin-in. Out of every dollar you put into a negative game, a portion goes to the casino. If the game has a 3% house edge and you play one quarter per hand, the long term cost with perfect play is about 3/4 of a cent per hand. If you step up to five quarters with a 2% house edge, the casino's profit is now 2 1/2 cents per hand. The formula above says we must add back the comps, free play and incentives. Obviously, they will be greater as your coin-in increases. If the comps have no value to you, the smaller the coin-in the less your cost to play.

Playing single coin comes with significant disadvantages. The only real advantage is more seat time for a given amount of money. You will see more jackpots, but they will be smaller. If you play single coin quarters, the payout for a royal flush is reduced from $1,000 to $62.50. For most quarter players, the dream of walking out with a $1,000 jackpot is the ultimate goal. Without that goal, it removes much of the enjoyment from playing the game. A royal flush is a rare event. However, the anticipation of hitting a $1,000 royal has value even if it doesn't happen. So much so that most players that play negative games should not play single coin even though they will lose less long term.

I am always experimenting with ways to reduce this cost. Currently, I am trying a new tactic in my own play. Instead of playing single coin one day a week, I am playing max coins one day a month. It could take longer to experience a royal flush, but it will be worth sixteen times more. Over Christmas we will be in South Florida for our annual family get together. The Hard Rock is comping our rooms saving us $250 a night. It could cost three times that much to stay at the Hard Rock over Christmas. $250 a night is the price at a South Florida Hampton Inn. I expect they'll throw in some points for food and drinks too. Comments welcome.

What's the question?



Who is on First?

Exactly.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
Joined: Aug 31, 2019
  • Threads: 10
  • Posts: 253
December 6th, 2019 at 8:31:25 AM permalink
Why don't you rename this forum "The good old boys AP forum"? By now, every question that has ever existed about advantage play has been asked and answered thousands of times. Let's talk about the games the majority of us play.
unJon
unJon 
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 1812
December 6th, 2019 at 8:36:37 AM permalink
Quote: SingleCoinVP

Why don't you rename this forum "The good old boys AP forum"? By now, every question that has ever existed about advantage play has been asked and answered thousands of times. Let's talk about the games the majority of us play.



I donít disagree with this sentiment. The Wizard is dedicated to helping people lose the least if they choose to play -EV games.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 145
  • Posts: 18217
December 6th, 2019 at 9:25:28 AM permalink
Quote: SingleCoinVP

Lots of retirees play single coin quarters at my casino. I think they're smart to do this as long as they stick to it. In my own case, lack of discipline has been my greatest downfall. I'm getting better.

Not smart. Less ______.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
RS
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 8623
Thanks for this post from:
Forager
December 6th, 2019 at 9:26:18 AM permalink
Quote: SingleCoinVP

Why don't you rename this forum "The good old boys AP forum"? By now, every question that has ever existed about advantage play has been asked and answered thousands of times. Let's talk about the games the majority of us play.


ĎRound these neck of the woods, boy, you in the minority.

But for real, go ahead and ask any and all questions about single coin VP, Iíll be glad to answer them for you.
SingleCoinVP
SingleCoinVP
Joined: Aug 31, 2019
  • Threads: 10
  • Posts: 253
December 6th, 2019 at 9:58:40 AM permalink
I question how many of today's players will ever see a positive casino game that lasts long enough to make a difference in their long term results? This could be due to many causes, some from the casino and some created by the players themselves.

For starters, here are a few questions worth discussion.

1. Given today's slot comps are better than video poker comps, are slots ever a better game?

2. How does moving up and down in denomination affect your results?

3. Can walking out ahead make you a long term winner?
Last edited by: SingleCoinVP on Dec 6, 2019

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