bigfoot66
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March 22nd, 2018 at 11:00:47 PM permalink
I was playing $1 DDB at my normal local tribal (not affiliated with a national chain) casino tonight and was dealt a pair of threes. I naturally held the threes and pushed deal—-except one of the threes unheld! Of course the next 3 cards were 3 3 4, which should have been an $800 payout but was instead $15. I point out what happened to the night slot manager, he confirmed what had happened in the machine’s hand history and took pictures but told me the slot director had to make the call, and invited me to call the director the following morning.

I have the highest card at this casino and have played there 2-4 nights a week for about three years. Anyone have experience with something like this? Any thoughts on the best way to handle it? Any thoughts on the probability that I will get paid the $800, or perhaps something less?
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boymimbo
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March 22nd, 2018 at 11:09:09 PM permalink
You're screwed.

Video poker operators count on these mistakes all of the time to raise the house edge.
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bigfoot66
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March 22nd, 2018 at 11:35:33 PM permalink
Do you think it matters that the employees know me and I am among their bigger players?
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billryan
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March 22nd, 2018 at 11:41:26 PM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

I was playing $1 DDB at my normal local tribal (not affiliated with a national chain) casino tonight and was dealt a pair of threes. I naturally held the threes and pushed deal—-except one of the threes unheld! Of course the next 3 cards were 3 3 4, which should have been an $800 payout but was instead $15. I point out what happened to the night slot manager, he confirmed what had happened in the machine’s hand history and took pictures but told me the slot director had to make the call, and invited me to call the director the following morning.

I have the highest card at this casino and have played there 2-4 nights a week for about three years. Anyone have experience with something like this? Any thoughts on the best way to handle it? Any thoughts on the probability that I will get paid the $800, or perhaps something less?



I asked this question about a year ago after something similar but much less costly. Many people were in the "You are screwed" camp, but others thought I'd have been paid if I complained. In my case I think I missed out on a Wild royal on Deuces. The guy next to me saw what happened and told me to call the bartender but for about ten dollars I didn't bother.
Best of luck to you, being the highest card level certainly shouldn't hurt your chances. Obviously, you didn't intend to hold a single three.
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FleaStiff
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March 23rd, 2018 at 1:46:12 AM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

I have the highest card at this casino and have played there 2-4 nights a week for about three years.

So what? They don't want to establish any precedent that people can quibble and frustrate what the machine did to them. If you hit deal too soon and did not allow the machine to process your commands to hold certain cards, that is your fault. Tribe will want to make money, not lose it. You have any "loyalty points" in their slot club you will find "loyalty" is a slogan word, that is all.
sabre
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March 23rd, 2018 at 2:58:37 AM permalink
Best of luck. I had a card unhold on me as I pressed deal once. I'm confident it was a button malfunction and not a fat fingering on my part. It was a low pair that would have turned into 3oak. I called over the slot supervisor and argued for a 3 for 1 payout that I didn't receive. He more or less laughed at me.

I can't even imagine their reaction had I been arguing for an 160 for 1 payout.
GWAE
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March 23rd, 2018 at 3:01:09 AM permalink
You have about a 9% chance of getting paid. On my last trip to Vegas I was dealt 4oak and threw it away by accident. These mistakes happen all the time. If they didn't then the casinos wouldn't even have vp.
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sabre
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March 23rd, 2018 at 3:04:37 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

If you hit deal too soon and did not allow the machine to process your commands to hold certain cards, that is your fault.



Don't automatically assume user error. When this happened to me I was playing fairly slowly with one hand since I had a beer in the other. I hit the hold button for card 2, then card 4, then deal. Both holds clearly registered. The millisecond that I hit deal the 2nd card unheld. This was on a newish IGT. Couldn't reproduce it on that machine. I've never had it happen before, and never again. But I'm positive that it wasn't my error.
RS
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March 23rd, 2018 at 3:17:02 AM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

I was playing $1 DDB at my normal local tribal (not affiliated with a national chain) casino tonight and was dealt a pair of threes. I naturally held the threes and pushed deal—-except one of the threes unheld! Of course the next 3 cards were 3 3 4, which should have been an $800 payout but was instead $15. I point out what happened to the night slot manager, he confirmed what had happened in the machine’s hand history and took pictures but told me the slot director had to make the call, and invited me to call the director the following morning.

I have the highest card at this casino and have played there 2-4 nights a week for about three years. Anyone have experience with something like this? Any thoughts on the best way to handle it? Any thoughts on the probability that I will get paid the $800, or perhaps something less?


Totally depends on the casino. Some will say “tough luck, eat s***, get lost”. Others will try not to pay you, but if you put up at least a bit of a fight and not be an a**hole, they’ll pay you....especially if you’re one of their bigger players.

I think I shared this story before, but I was playing double STP and got dealt a 2-pair on BP, got something like an 8x or 10x multiplier. I ended up holding TT96 instead of TT99, or whatever it was, and ended up losing something like $500-600 IIRC. I called a slot attendant over, he wasn’t all that thrilled and thought I was taking a shot. I asked for a supervisor, he didn’t seem likely to pay me, so I told him check the history on the machine, I’m not lying, I play here a lot, etc. He checked it, still didn’t wanna pay, I think I figured a way to say I’m 7* without sounding like a snob or whatever (this was at a CET property). Idk if it was him seeing my 7* card or he suddenly had a change of heart, but it went from, “Sorry, you have to be more careful about the buttons you push” to “Oh it’s just a simple mistake, of course we can pay you for this, but don’t do it again.” And I got paid and all was good.


This is easier said than done, but I’d let them damn well know you’re not going to be playing there anymore if they don’t pay you the extra $785, assuming of course, you’d be willing to not play there anymore.
Hunterhill
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March 23rd, 2018 at 5:25:38 AM permalink
I've had it happen a few times over the years and I was paid .They just said to be more careful.
I was a top level card holder.
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SOOPOO
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March 23rd, 2018 at 5:42:19 AM permalink
Its not so easy. What would you have done if by holding one 3 you drew a straight flush? Would you be calling over a supervisor to return the money you didn't earn?

I think your final result will be dependent on what your 'theo' is at that casino. If the expect you to lose more than a few thousand each year, I expect they will pay you.

If there is a way to prove it was a machine malfunction, then you might have a better case. If it is just "I would never hold just a single 3, I swear it!" then it is really just up to someone to decide how valuable you are to the casino.
beachbumbabs
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March 23rd, 2018 at 5:47:37 AM permalink
I think if you are polite but persistent, you will get paid. They can look it up. They just have to be willing to do the work.

Hope you wrote down the machine number and as exact a time as you could that it happened. If you get a "no", I suggest you continue up the food chain with written letters until you get a "yes" . Always include your player number.
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Wizard
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March 23rd, 2018 at 6:49:20 AM permalink
I vote for "you're screwed." Only if you were a super valuable player might they do something. I know of a situation where a woman was dealt four aces and a low kicker on Double Double Bonus, and in her excitement pressed deal, throwing away the whole hand, and getting garbage on the draw. This was on a $5 machine, so a $10,000 mistake.

Her husband was just livid about it and appealed up and down the slot department but all they got was a comp to nice dinner.

Once I was dealt two deuces and trash in Deuces Wild and in playing too fast didn't make enough contact on one of the buttons and held only once deuce. I'm still angry at myself over it and this was years ago. However, I can at least say I didn't cry and beg to slot management -- It was my mistake and I owned it.
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DRich
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March 23rd, 2018 at 6:50:58 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I've had it happen a few times over the years and I was paid .They just said to be more careful.
I was a top level card holder.



I have had this scenario happen three times and I have always been paid within 30 minutes. My only concern for you is that you left the property without being paid. My hunch says that you will be paid.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
bigfoot66
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March 23rd, 2018 at 7:10:16 AM permalink
Thanks for all the feedback. I don’t have the the time to post regularly like I did a few years ago but I will let y’all know how it goes. I give these folks a hell of a lot of action, but the game is extremely loose and the incentives to play are pretty generous. According to my win loss statement I won (very low) 5 figures last year and I’m ahead more than that so far in 2018. Being rude, threatening to never return, or actually never returning is negative EV, I’m really not in a position to do anything but be very nice and ask politely. But in the three years I have been playing 2-4 times a week I have never asked for anything (maybe a hotel room, once) or caused a problem for them, hopefully that works out in my favor.
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Greasyjohn
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March 23rd, 2018 at 7:36:43 AM permalink
The OP mentioned that he held two threes and pushed deal, but that only one three held. He also mentioned that the slot department confirmed this. In other words, they viewed the machine history and saw that he held both threes, and that only one of them appeared in the "held" position in the final hand. This would be an obvious machine malfunction, and he should be paid. It's not like he "meant" to hold two threes but did not successfully press "hold" on both of them. I don't get where some forum members do not think that this is a clear example of machine malfunction resulting in an incorrect payout.
bigfoot66
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March 23rd, 2018 at 7:42:20 AM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

The OP mentioned that he held two threes and pushed deal, but that only one three held. He also mentioned that the slot department confirmed this. In other words, they viewed the machine history and saw that he held both threes, and that only one of them appeared in the "held" position in the final hand. This would be an obvious machine malfunction, and he should be paid. It's not like he "meant" to hold two threes but did not successfully press "hold" on both of them. I don't get where some forum members do not think that this is a clear example of machine malfunction resulting in an incorrect payout.



I should have been more clear...they did not confirm that the button held and unheld, I’m not sure if they even can confirm this. They just confirmed the hand history.
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bigfoot66
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March 23rd, 2018 at 8:26:55 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Its not so easy. What would you have done if by holding one 3 you drew a straight flush? Would you be calling over a supervisor to return the money you didn't earn?



That’s a good point, but luckily it’s less relevant in this case. If I meant to hold AK suited, only held the ace, and the 3 royal cards came out, I would be in a much worse position because a lot of people go for the Aces. 3’s with (or without) a kicker is a much bigger payout and far easier to make than a straight flush, there is really no chance that someone with the least bit of card sense would intentionally hold one 3. But to answer your question, no, I’m sure that if holding one 3 got me a straight flush I would have shut up and taken the money.
Last edited by: bigfoot66 on Mar 23, 2018
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darkoz
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March 23rd, 2018 at 9:44:40 AM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

The OP mentioned that he held two threes and pushed deal, but that only one three held. He also mentioned that the slot department confirmed this. In other words, they viewed the machine history and saw that he held both threes, and that only one of them appeared in the "held" position in the final hand. This would be an obvious machine malfunction, and he should be paid. It's not like he "meant" to hold two threes but did not successfully press "hold" on both of them. I don't get where some forum members do not think that this is a clear example of machine malfunction resulting in an incorrect payout.



I agree but casinos are scum

Doesn't the game say malfunction voids all pay and plays? Could the casino hide behind that if you proved malfunction?
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onenickelmiracle
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March 23rd, 2018 at 9:51:25 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I agree but casinos are scum

Doesn't the game say malfunction voids all pay and plays? Could the casino hide behind that if you proved malfunction?

It's obvious casinos have disincentive to properly maintain video poker machines unfortunately. Also unfortunate, doesn't seem to matter, doesn't appear to cause liability. Seems at some casinos over half the machines have buttons that stick if not a higher rate while most slots work just fine.
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smoothgrh
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March 23rd, 2018 at 9:59:16 AM permalink
Hopefully this point isn't relevant to you: as far as I know, most IGT video poker machines keep a hand history of only the last 25 hands.

So if you're going to speak up, do it as soon as possible.
DRich
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March 23rd, 2018 at 10:44:52 AM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

I should have been more clear...they did not confirm that the button held and unheld, I’m not sure if they even can confirm this. They just confirmed the hand history.



They can not tell this from the machine.
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Nathan
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March 23rd, 2018 at 11:48:56 AM permalink
Since they are getting good play out of you anyways they should pay you the $800. You are what is called in many corporations a "Preferred Customer." They would be shooting themselves in the foot thrice if they didn't pay you the $800. One, $800 is really not all that much money. People lose $5,000 on games in one fell swoop constantly so with just one losing game they made back over 50 times the money they paid you. Two As a Preferred Customer you already giving them good play so they'd be foolish to drive you away for a measly $800. Three, you can badmouth them to your friends and family and they lose potential customers. All for not paying such a trivial amount....
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bigfoot66
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smoothgrh
March 23rd, 2018 at 12:01:18 PM permalink
Quote: smoothgrh

Hopefully this point isn't relevant to you: as far as I know, most IGT video poker machines keep a hand history of only the last 25 hands.

So if you're going to speak up, do it as soon as possible.



I spoke up while the final hand was displayed. The manager took a picture of the hand history showing what I was originally dealt and the final hand. Based on my experience with these folks they are decent people, hopefully they will do something for me. I called the slot director this morning and left a voicemail, no return call yet.
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Wizard
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March 23rd, 2018 at 12:39:55 PM permalink
I maintain what happened here is the player meant to press the button but just didn't press it hard enough to register. Sorry, but if this is the case, I would have to say the player has no legal leg to stand on. I think the best strategy is to ask very nicely and maybe play the sympathy card. Most slot managers would base their decision mostly on the value of the player. If the player has a net lifetime profit, I don't see them doing anything.
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bigfoot66
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March 23rd, 2018 at 1:08:35 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I maintain what happened here is the player meant to press the button but just didn't press it hard enough to register. Sorry, but if this is the case, I would have to say the player has no legal leg to stand on. I think the best strategy is to ask very nicely and maybe play the sympathy card. Most slot managers would base their decision mostly on the value of the player. If the player has a net lifetime profit, I don't see them doing anything.



I agree that I don't have a LEGAL leg to stand on. And even if I did, it is pretty clear to me that my EV is much higher if I can make them like me and allow me to keep playing rather than filing a complaint etc over $800. My hope is that they will pay it because I have consistently been a good customer. That said, I have been on a particularly hot streak over the past few months so they probably will show me being substantially up, although I lost more than $2k last night.
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Vegasrider
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March 23rd, 2018 at 5:05:51 PM permalink
I've had that happen but you must stop the game. Don't play another hand. They can get the attendant to verify the hand and whether the button sticks.

I had my 4 aces paid from a sticky button at the VP bar at the Suncoast.
Wizard
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March 23rd, 2018 at 5:11:15 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

I had my 4 aces paid from a sticky button at the VP bar at the Suncoast.



Ha! The buttons seem to be usually sticky at the bar there. The sports bar or the one by Dupars?
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Vegasrider
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March 23rd, 2018 at 5:15:07 PM permalink
Sports bar. But that's a common occurrence at any machine at the bar.as soon as I discover the button sticks or its dead I will call am attendant and get it fixed or move to a different machine
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